Differences between ILE-ENTp and SLE-ESTp

[FoxOnStilts]

ILEs are fun-oops-too-far-mean, SLEs are demanding-step-on-toes-mean.

[bolong]

There are more similarities than differences if you ask me... SLE plays straightforward power games, ILE does sneaky behind-the-scenes stuff.

[Adrenalinski]

When I think of the two, I think ESTPs get a bum rap. Though that said, the ESTP *is* the more likely to be the guy in high school who will give you a noogie simply because he is bigger than you, and he may or may not be a bully, and the ENTP is more likely to be the one who hacks the school PA system and begin playing Beethoven's Fifth not because he wants to disrupt class, but simply because he wants to flout the rules but not *actually* cause any harm...

Think of it this way: In a boxing ring you'd want to fight an ENTP, and in a courtroom you'd want to go up against an ESTP, because in the opposite scenario you'd probably lose either way.

[The Reality Denialist]

I live in totally different head space.
I think methods in information processing can be similar.

ILE is scattered person who spews out weird detached stuff out of their mouths and does weird detached things. SLE , I think, is more acivity seeking.

I tend to stop ath mental wanderings and never take part in actual activity and think about more things. Leave it as it is attitude or make setting even more weird than it is.

[Adam Strange]

SLE dad, ILE son:

https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/lion-autocracy

[The Reality Denialist]

SLE dad, ILE son:

https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/lion-autocracy

Could be although ILE's are more prone to tearing down power structures leading towards anarchy in power terms if it ever goes there. Usually ILE's will get really pissed at people in power, then they get bit more pissed and finally they try to join in order destroy it.

Number of destructive fantasies I have had...

[The Banana King]

I noticed that ILE-Ti and SLE-Ti are both quite similar and very often mistyped. Had a few SLE-Ti classmates and now an SLE-Ti boss that confirms it. Both of these types give sorta serious vibes that people would mistake as introvertedness. The weakened lead function also makes them appear like their supervisee (!). So you get SLE that appear like LSI/LII and ILE that appear like LII/LSI. The only way to discern their real types is dimensionality of Ni and Si, and temperament. If you made a checklist with signs of EP and IJ you'd see that although they seem IJ, they have more variable levels of energy like EP types do, they're more spontaneous, and they kinda get 'fed up' with EJ and IJ types. They also get annoyed by constant Fe from Fe leads since it's not their dual-seeking but their mobilizing function.
I think lots of people type others by stereotypes (loud jock = ESTP, loud nerd = ENTP) even though 99% of people out there aren't walking caricatures of their types. For the record, MBTI and Big 5 say I'm introverted even though in Socionics (and in real life) I'm not. Whether it's because of different definitions or poor questions/testing on the part of MBTI and Big 5, I'm not sure.

[euphoricfilth]

They're pretty damn different from my vantage point. ILEs are the most detached type in my experience, they don't care much for having a direction in life and struggle to take anything seriously. As Ne bases they basically float from one curiosity to the next, doing whatever seems interesting at a given point in time. Everything about ILEs is pluralistic, they hold multiple views on the same topic and can rationalize a belief in numerous ways.

SLEs are so determined and single minded in contrast. We organize our lives around central objectives and feel very plugged into the world. SLE is a rather serious and grim type often, the "bright sunny Chad" image isn't terribly accurate. 4d Se-Te makes us view life as sheer effort and exertion, where anything worth doing must be hard. ILEs tend to seek easy ways around problems by perusing alternative solutions until one clicks. They want to coast through without breaking a sweat and prefer cleverness to pushing through barriers.

[Rebelondeck]

At times, the words on both sides of “versus” can apply to both types but most times, they remain on their respective sides:

ESTp versus ENTp

bottom-up versus top-down
components versus system
practical versus academic
here and now versus over the horizon
tactile versus mindful
characteristics versus connections
physical versus academic
explorer versus experimenter
application versus theory
earthy versus elitist
do versus study
net gain versus net contribution
parts versus whole
where should I be versus where do I fit
charming versus diplomatic

a.k.a. I/O

EDIT: I had meant to write "physical versus cerebral" instead of repeating the word "academic"

[euphoricfilth]

At times, the words on both sides of “versus” can apply to both types but most times, they remain on their respective sides:

ESTp versus ENTp

bottom-up versus top-down
components versus system
practical versus academic
here and now versus over the horizon
tactile versus mindful
characteristics versus connections
physical versus academic
explorer versus experimenter
application versus theory
earthy versus elitist
do versus study
net gain versus net contribution
parts versus whole
where should I be versus where do I fit
charming versus diplomatic

a.k.a. I/O

Not bad, I will say I like "bottom-up vs top-down" a lot as a distinction between SLE and ILE. I definitely consider myself a bottom-up thinker in how I seek what is most stable, objective, and certain as my basis for understanding a subject or building an argument. Getting ~the big picture~ as in an airy word cloud or skeletal definition of a concept doesn't do much for me. I genuinely want numbers, statistics, citations of historical events, research, etc. as fast as possible, since my goal is to get an accurate idea of how a concept functions in reality.

The way Ne bases seem to think often feels lazy or incomplete to me, since they quickly absorb the "gist" of a subject and consider that enough. The attitude seems to be "I don't need to have the details because what really matters is the ~big idea~," but can you demonstrate how that big idea is derived from reality? It often seems to me that ILEs want to offload the actual work onto other people, while occupying a comfy position as the "idea guy" or "big picture thinker." In contrast, I focus on making my beliefs and creations as impenetrable as possible. What concerns me is how much pressure a system can take before breaking.

"Where should I be versus where do I fit" is an interesting observation, and I'd like to hear your reasoning. I vaguely get what you're talking about, but I don't want to infer the wrong conclusion.

"Earthy vs elitist" is kinda weird to me. SLEs are aristocratic types and, like all betas, have a tendency to feel a part of a higher class of people. Being Se base in particular can make us feel more motivated, driven, and capable than most people we come across. I certainly catch myself looking down on other people for being too lazy, unmotivated, conflict avoidant, and stuck in their heads. I scan for passionate and dedicated people who "get it," that the point of life is to do things of great significance.

The ILEs I meet seem incapable of taking themselves seriously. They're goofy, ironic, both self-deprecating and playfully narcissistic, and get along with almost everyone. If anything, I notice ILEs frequently enjoy mocking anyone who thinks highly of themselves, with the ultimate moral being "we're all apes on a spinning rock and our disagreements are silly to get upset over." I struggle to see ILE as a particularly elitist type, unless it's modified by something external, such as being a 3 or 7 enneagram wise.

[euphoricfilth]

Personally I always see Ne leads as not having this kind of forceful gait and contained energy that Se leads always have. SLEs may be animated too but they still have control of their own body most of the time. Ne leads mostly don’t, sometimes they bump tables unknowingly when they get even just slightly excited.

The difference in physical presence between myself and ILEs I meet is hilarious. I walk with a lot of force behind me, my feet are firmly planted on the ground, and I have good control of my body. Even when I'm distracted thinking about something, I'm naturally aware of myself in space. I cannot fathom walking into random shit or running into people on the street while lost in thought. It simply doesn't happen. When I'm moving about the world, I am constantly scanning my environment and taking note of useful information or interesting observations. I track everything I put in my body and how it makes me feel, and I always know what my body needs at any given point. This all seems like Being Human 101 to me, but holy shit can ILEs be so bad at existing.

One night I was hanging out with an ILE friend and we went to get food. This is during COVID, mind you, so careful food handling is a must. While walking around looking for dinner, my friend notices a late night cookie shop is open. She impulsively runs in and buys around 1000kcal worth of cookie and stuffs her face in public, without washing her hands after touching doorknobs. I ask her "what the fuck are you doing, you could get sick," and she says "oh, I forgot I touched the door." Then she realizes she just ate a ton of sugar instead of real food, and that she's going to feel like shit for a while. Of course, she still has to eat a proper dinner, so she winds up spending more money than she initially wanted to on food.

It was the most vulgar display of 1d Si I've ever witnessed. I had to break down for her, on numerous occasions, how the choices she makes affect her internal state. She doesn't naturally make the connection between eating junk food all the time and feeling bad. Her head is off in the clouds thinking about fuck knows what while her body seems to act on its own, especially to indulge in short sighted comforts. Furthermore, she had no sense of visual harmony and would wear any pieces together if they were comfortable, regardless of how terrible it looked. She was also very clumsy and didn't seem to know her size in space. It was bizarre to me.

The ILEs I know don’t have great spatial skills, like I said things just fly or fall sometimes, when they use a camera for example it’s mostly off center, when they organize stuff there is an extra/unnecessary movement as their force is not well directed, like me they are also very unorganized and their things are just everywhere.

ILEs don't seem particularly spatial in thought from my perspective also. They relate to more purified concepts stripped of any earthly form, and listening to ILEs talk feels like they're talking their way around a concept too abstract to be directly expressed. I am naturally good at spatial reasoning and visualization, in contrast. It's easy for me to stand in the middle of a room and mentally rearrange objects to better utilize the space. When I envision an abstracted system like a virtual machine network, it automatically takes on a visual architecture as if I'm analyzing the 3d blueprint of an actual building. Then I can rotate the space in my head and zoom in/out to get the full picture. Holographic-panoramic thought style, I guess.

I roast ILEs pretty hard because it's easy, and they tend to take "funny guy" roles regardless. ILE is one of the types I connect with the easiest, though. The mutual Fi polr is a relief; neither of us expects anything from the other, and we can come and go at will without attachment. Our conversations tend to stay intellectual and we can discuss subjects in depth for hours without sidetracking into personal shit the way other types tend to. Sharing creative Ti/demonstrative Te is nice since we can fluidly move between both thinking styles in conversation, while neither of us actually worships at the extroverted thinking Church of Common Sense And Empirical Proof.

There is always roasting, of course.
"Haha you're an oversized child stop being so lazy"
"Haha you're an egotistical tryhard who tries to impress everyone"

[The Banana King]

The difference in physical presence between myself and ILEs I meet is hilarious. I walk with a lot of force behind me, my feet are firmly planted on the ground, and I have good control of my body. Even when I'm distracted thinking about something, I'm naturally aware of myself in space. I cannot fathom walking into random shit or running into people on the street while lost in thought. It simply doesn't happen. When I'm moving about the world, I am constantly scanning my environment and taking note of useful information or interesting observations. I track everything I put in my body and how it makes me feel, and I always know what my body needs at any given point. This all seems like Being Human 101 to me, but holy shit can ILEs be so bad at existing.

One night I was hanging out with an ILE friend and we went to get food. This is during COVID, mind you, so careful food handling is a must. While walking around looking for dinner, my friend notices a late night cookie shop is open. She impulsively runs in and buys around 1000kcal worth of cookie and stuffs her face in public, without washing her hands after touching doorknobs. I ask her "what the fuck are you doing, you could get sick," and she says "oh, I forgot I touched the door." Then she realizes she just ate a ton of sugar instead of real food, and that she's going to feel like shit for a while. Of course, she still has to eat a proper dinner, so she winds up spending more money than she initially wanted to on food.

It was the most vulgar display of 1d Si I've ever witnessed. I had to break down for her, on numerous occasions, how the choices she makes affect her internal state. She doesn't naturally make the connection between eating junk food all the time and feeling bad. Her head is off in the clouds thinking about fuck knows what while her body seems to act on its own, especially to indulge in short sighted comforts. Furthermore, she had no sense of visual harmony and would wear any pieces together if they were comfortable, regardless of how terrible it looked. She was also very clumsy and didn't seem to know her size in space. It was bizarre to me.



ILEs don't seem particularly spatial in thought from my perspective also. They relate to more purified concepts stripped of any earthly form, and listening to ILEs talk feels like they're talking their way around a concept too abstract to be directly expressed. I am naturally good at spatial reasoning and visualization, in contrast. It's easy for me to stand in the middle of a room and mentally rearrange objects to better utilize the space. When I envision an abstracted system like a virtual machine network, it automatically takes on a visual architecture as if I'm analyzing the 3d blueprint of an actual building. Then I can rotate the space in my head and zoom in/out to get the full picture. Holographic-panoramic thought style, I guess.

I roast ILEs pretty hard because it's easy, and they tend to take "funny guy" roles regardless. ILE is one of the types I connect with the easiest, though. The mutual Fi polr is a relief; neither of us expects anything from the other, and we can come and go at will without attachment. Our conversations tend to stay intellectual and we can discuss subjects in depth for hours without sidetracking into personal shit the way other types tend to. Sharing creative Ti/demonstrative Te is nice since we can fluidly move between both thinking styles in conversation, while neither of us actually worships at the extroverted thinking Church of Common Sense And Empirical Proof.

There is always roasting, of course.
"Haha you're an oversized child stop being so lazy"
"Haha you're an egotistical tryhard who tries to impress everyone"

That description sounds like ILE-Ne. One of my best friends is one and we're both quite different at a glance. The ILE-Ne I've met were extremely clumsy and absent-minded. I can't speak for other ILE-Ti but I'd say my hand dexterity and reflexes are excellent. I rank among the top players of a few rhythm games (pure hand-eye coordination and speed). My body dexterity isn't too good in comparison, but it's something like using excess force and breaking things rather than clumsiness or absent-mindedness problems. So ILE-Ne with its weakened Si and weakened Se is extremely clumsy. ILE-Ti with its strengthened Si and strengthened Se should at least be more aware of its body, environment, etc.
I'd say in my case I'm not too aware of static objects in the environment, stuff like "find x thing" in a static environment full of objects is hard for me because I quite literally see the big picture when I look at a scene. On the other hand my visual tracking skills are excellent. Although maybe that's a skill I trained thanks to playing games competitively for a few years.

Anyways, the point of this thread isn't distinguishing a generic 'obvious' ILE with a generic 'obvious' SLE. Yeah a stereotypic ILE is clumsy and nerdy, yeah a stereotypic SLE is spatially aware and 'chad'. The point is distinguishing ILE-Ti and SLE-Ti who look very similar. Both rather serious, neither particularly aggressive, both sharp or thoughtful looking but animated and humorous/ironic in conversations, etc. In fact if two people of these types have an extremely strong Rational subtype then their Functions would have mathematically identical strengths (and the only way to type them is through dimensionality of Ni and Si).

[The Reality Denialist]

This is really interesting because I met an ILE at a party who stood at the sidelines all night long and did not even attempt to engage in a social contact with anyone except for his SEI wife.

Yup. I'm like this. If I can not use logic I do not find those occasions interesting at all. Fi mingling is like nightmare. Give me even Te task...or anything and I become social

[Sol]

If I can not use logic I do not find those occasions interesting at all.

while being F, you are using logics lesser than emotions and when you are using logics you do this not so good

[The Reality Denialist]

while being F, you are using logics lesser than emotions and when you are using logics you do this not so good

Well since when you misunderstood probability distribution (Normal distribution)boundaries your words mean nothing to me. I can not take your logic seriously even if you are a T type.

[Alomoes]

@Chin Diaper 007
you may notice your F by IR effects with T/F types IRL
other approaches may keep your misleading forever

Speak english or nerd. Nobody here understands cult speech.

Old thread, by the way. There's a response here that's from 2007.

Also, yeah, wallflower can I be, however in normal situations, I tend to gravitate towards the center of attention for god knows how or why.

while being F, you are using logics lesser than emotions and when you are using logics you do this not so good

This is true. I'll give you that. Might want to check yourself for that one.

[The Banana King]

Yup. I'm like this. If I can not use logic I do not find those occasions interesting at all. Fi mingling is like nightmare. Give me even Te task...or anything and I become social

I feel ya. Social occasions where you're supposed to 'just have fun' with strangers are a pain in the ass. Until I can figure out if someone shares interests with me and then I open up. But if it's business-related socializing where I need to make contacts or whatever it's easy for me to initiate conversation and just get the job done. Maybe it's a Constructivist vs Emotivist thing.

[The Reality Denialist]

@Chin Diaper 007 you don’t have a vid? I thought everyone gets initiated by Sol at one point.

I was disrespectful of his rules of conduct. I also recorded the video ergonomically non favorable position with bad camera + I had no idea that talking to a camera was that hard (when I do not have people around I just get submerged into my thoughts and do not put them out). It was very amateurish but it was also meant to be that way. It was quick one.

[The Reality Denialist]

I have good reflexes but those tend to suprise people when it comes out of nowhere. It is like I'm extremely clumsy with good reflexes. The end result is that I'm still alive.