IEI-LSE Conflict Relations (INFp and ESTj)

[maze]

Thing is, I saw the "comfort" level of these conflict relations (INFp/ESTp/ESTj/INFj) in the Article's thread bionicgoat,smilex,mitsutti,kioshi, were posting in....and...the comfort level wasn't the lowest of the pairings. I agree with this. I can hang out for a whole day in that grouping and not experience the kind of discomfort I experience in other groupings.

The female ESTj said to me once, "I always feel like I have to socialize with the people around me, you know, introduce myself, learn where they're from, etc. But I don't want to do this; I don't like it, but I can't help it." Here's a prime example of Fe as a role function.

I get the same kind of thing from my ESTj friend.

[Ms. Kensington]

manic giggles <3

[raisonpure]

I used to get along pretty well with ESTjs. I liked how a teacher of mine didn't give up on me and would encourage me even when I felt really awful about myself. That was, until my recent experiences with a really unhealthy ESTj (8w9 sx). Not sure if the Fe role causes the most problems -- I wish he would be more careful about hurting others. It's his Fi dual-seeking that's troublesome -- so much that my ISFj employer gave up on him only after a week's exposure to his nasty traits. Whenever I try to lecture him on the merits of being refraining from acting on misunderstandings too quickly, he's like "I don't want to listen. I'm busy right now." The last time I demanded an apology for insulting my and others' integrity, he evaded it by saying "you don't have much integrity in you, anyway". I lost my patience with him, and dared him to show his offensive work for everyone to see and judge if he had the guts for it. Well, he didn't, and "you're never going to grow up if you can't examine yourself... Coward" were the Last Words I threw at him. I didn't realize how reliant I had become on him until I broke down shortly afterwards... I still feel like a knife has been driven into my heart when I think about the incident. After a week, he admitted to my mother that he was childish and wrong, asking me to come back. I wouldn't. When he called her a few days later to breach the subject, he added that "Cancers are known to harbour deep grudges" I hope he'll suffer from at least half of the pain I feel for the rest of his life -- it will teach him to pause before saying mean things to people in a fit of anger.

[Ms. Kensington]

"Cancers are known to harbour deep grudges"

haha.

[raisonpure]

It's strange. He only cares about me and feels regretful when I leave him. A few days ago, I hung up on him as soon as I heard his voice. The second time he called, I became enraged when he uttered my name... I was so revolted that I let slip a sound that was equivalent to "Hmph!" and hung up on him again. My mother informed me that he sounded depressed when he called her. Then he denied her a favour that he had been willing to grant her before I fucked up (same old bad habit strikes again... when will he ever learn? ). Then he "sounded relieved" and was became more agreeable when my mother later explained that I did it because I didn't know what to say. Not that I have anything more to say to him, anyway. This has happened, what, 2 times before already? I forgave him, went back to him, and then came away with a deeper wound because my invulnerability lowered with every hour that I spent with him. He's a week too late, he is. Needs to realize that this is not a child's game.

And I still have to make an effort to be diplomatic the next time he calls... Instead of blurting something like "I hate you, don't talk to me, you'd better suffocate in misery... Buh bye!"

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Somebody please give me lots of examples of how a conflicting relationship between ESTjs and INFps would work out. For some reason I never really hear about this relationship. I want real examples of how it's played in 'real life' not just 'oh INFp doesn't get the they need' or some shit like that.

[ThePeddler]

I haven't seen this one actually played out in real-life, but i have thoughts on it.

Leading versus Vulnerable : The ESTj wants the INFp to be more active, get more work done, and will criticise the INFp unless it's doing something useful.

Leading versus Vulnerable : The INFp is confident in putting off things until it's the right time, which upsets the ESTj who feels that now is the only time. INFp also seems eclectic and just plain weird to the ESTj, because of it's well-developed different beliefs and willingness to be what ESTj's consider laziness.

Role versus Creative : ESTj's are able to do actions now, and criticise the INFp who worries about what it is able to do now.

Role versus Creative : INFp wants a more emotionally drenched atmosphere and gets annoyed at the ESTj's dry attempt to create it. ESTj is annoyed by the INFp's tendency to focus on the Atmosphere rather the work that needs to be done, or the information that needs to be transmitted.

...

[Creepy-]

[QUOTE=ThePeddler;202616]I haven't seen this one actually played out in real-life, but i have thoughts on it.

Leading versus Vulnerable : The ESTj wants the INFp to be more active, get more work done, and will criticise the INFp unless it's doing something useful.

Leading versus Vulnerable : The INFp is confident in putting off things until it's the right time, which upsets the ESTj who feels that now is the only time. INFp also seems eclectic and just plain weird to the ESTj, because of it's well-developed different beliefs and willingness to be what ESTj's consider laziness.

Role versus Creative : ESTj's are able to do actions now, and criticise the INFp who worries about what it is able to do now.

Role versus Creative : INFp wants a more emotionally drenched atmosphere and gets annoyed at the ESTj's dry attempt to create it. ESTj is annoyed by the INFp's tendency to focus on the Atmosphere rather the work that needs to be done, or the information that needs to be transmitted.

The only way it works (and then it works really really well) is to argue once in a while. (Calm arguments are great, but difficult because that's only happening by email and he doesn't like that because I can trounce him in type, but not in heated discussion).

[Beautiful sky]

[QUOTE=Trouble;937690]

I haven't seen this one actually played out in real-life, but i have thoughts on it.

Leading versus Vulnerable : The ESTj wants the INFp to be more active, get more work done, and will criticise the INFp unless it's doing something useful.

Leading versus Vulnerable : The INFp is confident in putting off things until it's the right time, which upsets the ESTj who feels that now is the only time. INFp also seems eclectic and just plain weird to the ESTj, because of it's well-developed different beliefs and willingness to be what ESTj's consider laziness.

Role versus Creative : ESTj's are able to do actions now, and criticise the INFp who worries about what it is able to do now.

Role versus Creative : INFp wants a more emotionally drenched atmosphere and gets annoyed at the ESTj's dry attempt to create it. ESTj is annoyed by the INFp's tendency to focus on the Atmosphere rather the work that needs to be done, or the information that needs to be transmitted.

The only way it works (and then it works really really well) is to argue once in a while. (Calm arguments are great, but difficult because that's only happening by email and he doesn't like that because I can trounce him in type, but not in heated discussion).

You sound very very familiar

[Beautiful sky]

I haven't seen this one actually played out in real-life, but i have thoughts on it.

Leading versus Vulnerable : The ESTj wants the INFp to be more active, get more work done, and will criticise the INFp unless it's doing something useful.

Leading versus Vulnerable : The INFp is confident in putting off things until it's the right time, which upsets the ESTj who feels that now is the only time. INFp also seems eclectic and just plain weird to the ESTj, because of it's well-developed different beliefs and willingness to be what ESTj's consider laziness.

Role versus Creative : ESTj's are able to do actions now, and criticise the INFp who worries about what it is able to do now.

Role versus Creative : INFp wants a more emotionally drenched atmosphere and gets annoyed at the ESTj's dry attempt to create it. ESTj is annoyed by the INFp's tendency to focus on the Atmosphere rather the work that needs to be done, or the information that needs to be transmitted.

...

Great post!

Yeah, I have no problem taking on more and more and more work..what I have a majorly problem with is RELAXING.

[maze]

I want real examples of how it's played in 'real life'

Okkkaaaay, you asked for it. Get ready to read.

Plenty of clarifying and adjusting. Lots of laughs.

THROUGH E-MAIL:

Me: Hey, if you have time/interest, read over this story that ISFp wrote. She mustered the effort to put all her funny genius into writing but as you'll see, it needs major editing. She asked me to do it, but I'm no expert! Plus, I've never-ever felt comfy editing other people's writings. Could you give it a looksy and let me know if there is anything that you'd change.

ESTj: WOW, interesting...hummmm... I'll give you a call and we'll talk about it.

OVER THE PHONE:

ESTj: OMG, what did you think about it????

Me: I enjoyed seeing animals through her eyes. I mean, who imagines such things!? The twist at the end had me laughing out loud.

ESTj: Really? Honestly, I couldn't get through it. All those pronouns! I couldn't tell who was who. It was so disconnected.

Me: Yeah, I know. She's aware of this, that's why she asked me to help edit. It didn't bother me, it's just technique she needs to work on. What did you think about the story?

ESTj: Uhmmm, that's another thing. It was kind of weird. A cat falling in love with a dog...and admiring it from afar...not being able to get together. It's weird no?

Me: Haha, it doesn't bother me.

ESTj: Hey, do you think it was inspired by her own life? You know, her being...gay?

Me: Yeah, the thought crossed my mind.

ESTj: Have you ever stopped and wonder if she...ever...had feelings for you? haha

Me: Haha, no.

ESTj: INFj gets really agitated by gay people. He says they complicate their lives. They complain about their lives yet they're the ones choosing the behaviors/lifestyle. If it's causing them so much trouble, why would they pursue it?

Me: Yeah, I dunno. I don't really know what she feels. What it's like for her.

ESTj: She doesn't talk to you about it?

Me: I don't feel comfortable asking about it.

ESTj: REALLY? I imagined you would.

Me: No, not with super personal things like that.

ESTj: But she's always been a good friend of yours.

Me: Yeah, but...she's very private about relationship stuff.

ESTj: But why don't you ask? She might want to talk about this stuff with someone.

Me: True.

ESTj: Are you comfortable talking about this?

Me: Not really, hahaha.

ESTj: I could tell.

Me: Yeah, I just feel like I'm gossiping. I dunno, she's my pal, you know?

ESTj: Yeah, I know. Just tell me whenever you don't want to talk about something. Seriously, just tell me. Okay? Please do me that favor.

Me: haha, okay.

BTW, I recalled every word. That was the exact conversation. I'm that good. heh

She turned the conversation into a sort of gossip fest and it was awkward. She's very considerate though, always urging me to let her know when I'm not into something we're doing/talking about. She's aware that I tend to do things I don't want to do, simply to go along with someone and not let them down. She always requests that I be straight out with her. I learned from her that YES means yes and NO means no.

Another time, she came to visit and I took her to the beach. Not just any beach! I took her to the dog beach. It's a pretty special place for me. I wanted to share that with her. However, she brought along her toddler. Couldn't really take her to the actual dog beach, so I parked a few blocks down and walked to another part of the beach. I should have listened to my husband when he asked, we're going to THAT beach? Turns out, that beach is filty. Always has been. Of course that's not something that registered in my mind as I whimsically imagined all of us caught up in the beauty of my special beach. yeah, not quite. ESTj immediately quiets down and I look around and realize the cigarrette butts and plastic containers have putt her off. We leave. Drive another 20 minutes to another beach. I'm a dork. I mean, she has us take off our shoes before we walk into her home! I should of known better. lol I'm sure that let her down a bit, but she put on a happy face and rolled with it.

Lots of adjusting and compromising. Sometimes with good will, other times with frustration. It depends if we're stressed, I've noticed.

[Exodus]

I haven't seen this one actually played out in real-life, but i have thoughts on it.

Leading versus Vulnerable : The ESTj wants the INFp to be more active, get more work done, and will criticise the INFp unless it's doing something useful.

Leading versus Vulnerable : The INFp is confident in putting off things until it's the right time, which upsets the ESTj who feels that now is the only time. INFp also seems eclectic and just plain weird to the ESTj, because of it's well-developed different beliefs and willingness to be what ESTj's consider laziness.

Role versus Creative : ESTj's are able to do actions now, and criticise the INFp who worries about what it is able to do now.

Role versus Creative : INFp wants a more emotionally drenched atmosphere and gets annoyed at the ESTj's dry attempt to create it. ESTj is annoyed by the INFp's tendency to focus on the Atmosphere rather the work that needs to be done, or the information that needs to be transmitted.

...

Good. Another thing I've noticed is that if an INFp is not getting the Ti he expects, he will lash out with Fe (for example, publicly embarrassing the ESTj).

[raisonpure]

Leading versus Vulnerable : The INFp is confident in putting off things until it's the right time, which upsets the ESTj who feels that now is the only time. INFp also seems eclectic and just plain weird to the ESTj, because of it's well-developed different beliefs and willingness to be what ESTj's consider laziness.

Example conversations I often had with my teacher:

ESTj: You need to be faster. You don't have enough time. At the rate you're going, you're not going to make it.
I think: 4 months is plenty of time, and you never know what could happen. I can alter my pace at any time, I'm just waiting for the flash of inspiration.

ESTj: You need to plan for your future.
I think: Plans are subject to change. I never know what might come up and throw me off course. Besides, I neglect the present if I get absorbed in the future. I just want to focus on what I can do now.

ESTj: What's past is past. It's pointless to dwell on the past. Why make yourself miserable by thinking so much?
Me: One ought to analyze the past and remember it well so as not to repeat those mistakes in a future situation with the same variables. It is prevention for the future.
ESTj: You can't prevent things from happening. Anything could happen.
I think: History repeats itself. As long as you detect the patterns in time, you can prevent the rest from happening.

ESTj: Will you be coming tomorrow?
Me: Eh, it depends on the weather.
(ESTj hates uncertainty)

One of the first things that I noticed about him was that he was too impatient. He was terrible at waiting, and I'd lecture him about that. Those lectures never went anywhere and resulted only in frustration. I'm currently living with a younger clone of my ESTj teacher, and he comes across as simple-minded because his entire focus is also on how to make a living; mine is on how to live meaningfully, which is why I often get sad from thinking about a wasted past (ESTj #2 finds the perpetual melancholy puzzling). Living meaningfully entails thinking all day long about who I am and what I'm here for, watching animes/dramas/movies to refine my worldview, and spending hours writing down my thoughts. I am on a quest to understand life, but don't live one of my own. ESTj #1 and #2 ensure their survival, but refuse to waste their time thinking about the Mysteries of the Universe, and would see what I do as inactivity. I've given up arguing about beliefs with them because their priorities are simply so different.

[eunice]

ESTj: What's past is past. It's pointless to dwell on the past. Why make yourself miserable by thinking so much?
Me: One ought to analyze the past and remember it well so as not to repeat those mistakes in a future situation with the same variables. It is prevention for the future.
ESTj: You can't prevent things from happening. Anything could happen.
I think: History repeats itself. As long as you detect the patterns in time, you can prevent the rest from happening.

This looks familiar. I had an ISFp friend who made exactly the same comments as your ESTj teacher, and I even started a thread on it. I find it frustrating whenever we talked about this sort of issue 'cos she would always assert that what's past is past and the best way we can deal with it is to ignore it and stop thinking about it.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Tell that person to come on this forum. It's obvious he needs to be educated about gay people. Or ask him 'when did you choose to be straight.' What a bitch. I wanted to hit him. (of course I have to control my temper I guess cause people don't learn that way, but it gets tiring when you encounter this idiocy. It's really not that hard to be more open-minded...)

And thanks, yes, I can really see how they clash now, thanks. I think my general sense is that INFjs want to be accumulated in the 'real world' more and cured of their 'freak nature' (for lack of a better phrase) but the INFps want to stay that way. And ESTps are not as 'tightly-wound' to make them change this, they are enhanced by it.

I'm not sure I ever got close to an ESTj for this reason to really feel the conflicting nature. (assuming I am an INFp not too sure) I'm not really attracted by overly practical business like people anyway, which is what you seem to be describing ESTjs as. What you see is what you get, might be true, but it's also boring... a rich fantasy life never hurt anyone. (imo) And I think you can only really get to know who is your conflicter/dual until you get to know them. When people act like that I just zone out really, and tell them in my own way I am not interested in what they say.

I only had really one true enemy my entire life. I'll try to describe her behavior on why we conflicted... so people can help me out (lol this is fun) Um okay new post though...

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Okay this was my first boss so I guess we would have conflicted naturally anyway haha (maybe not though) Anyway I hated her because she always criticized me and called me out. (guess that's not related to socionics...) Well um, oh yeah, I don't actually mind being bossed around if I know people have my best interests at heart but I didn't sense that with her. It's like she only wanted me to do more work for work's sake, not when there was a meaningful reason to. She would automatically make me do more things, and said I thought too much. She also tried to get me to repeat my fantasies to her so she could properly de-construct them. Seriously she tried to 'correct' my ideals as if they needed to be corrected and as if I wasn't aware they were inside my head and my head only. Totally annoying. Also she seemed to try to defend me on the wrong things, like I think she could tell I was upset and she didn't want to be totally heartless, so she tried to stood up for me, but it sounded like... I don't know. She defended me on things I didn't need to be protected with at all, and made me think she was just being patronizing. She even thought I was mentally ill once and suggested I see a psychiatrist. Needless to say I am glad I don't work for her anymore.

She walked with a powerful strut, but also looked like she was constipated all the time. Me, I'm much more relaxed, and self-deprecating, and a bit goofy. She also drove a fast, red car and she was very verbal. She would laugh at people if they tried to get aggressive with her and would just stand up to her face. She had a bit of a temper herself. She would also accuse me of 'playing the victim.'

Of course I wasn't innocent either. Whenever I said something, she too would just get so angry and kind of dissatisfied. One time she even took my arm and shook it (she's not very strong she just pretends she is) I don't know though. She would say little snide comments like in our diversity workshops at work (everybody knew I was gay) she would say 'no, being gay isn't wrong but some people view it as morally wrong' and then looked right at me AS IF I DIDN'T KNOW THAT!!!! She didn't say this really bitchy though, it was more like insidious or patronizing as if I was some poor little child that didn't know how the world worked. I also pissed her off because I would turn everything into a joke kinda or I would just kind of smile at things. She didn't think I obeyed social norms well enough. We always felt a sense of peace when we weren't around each other. Also like text book conflictors, when I first saw her I thought I REALLY liked her. She had such a nice fashion sense. (lol what a fag huh but that's the first thing I noticed about her) She knew how to pull off leather really well.

Still a she-bitch though. Yeah we really wanted to kill each other. Everybody always said to me 'oh she's not that bad' but I wouldn't listen lol. She also accused me of sexualizing everything which I admit I do but it's fun lol.

[Exodus]

Based on that, I'd say INTj, with INFp second.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Interesting. I can somewhat see ESFj as my dual. And my is in fact weak. Has that 'forceful yet caring' kinda vibe that I really enjoy. Hmm. Not sure about the rest of the functions though I'll have to study INTjs more. Can definitely relate to the alpha quadra too.

I'll have to think more about this.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Hmm. Now I can REALLY see this.

Okay. You convinced me somehow. ;p I am an INTj from here on out. Damn though that seems so common WAAAH I WANNABE SPECIAL.

[Exodus]

Hmm. Now I can REALLY see this.

Okay. You convinced me somehow. ;p I am an INTj from here on out. Damn though that seems so common WAAAH I WANNABE SPECIAL.

AFAIK, you're the only homosexual here. That's special.

Though I wonder...

[ThePeddler]

Hmm. Now I can REALLY see this.

Okay. You convinced me somehow. ;p I am an INTj from here on out. Damn though that seems so common WAAAH I WANNABE SPECIAL.

AFAIK, you're the only homosexual here. That's special.

Though I wonder...

Nope..Don't wanna ruin that... But yeah...

[Exodus]

Maybe ISFp? I think you're Alpha too, but Fe ego is making a lot of sense.

[uninspired]

I've found that the best way to work with ESTjs (in INFps' case) is to use logic (develop your hidden agendas!). They haven't the most rational thought processes, despite their insistence that they do. So if they start spouting off irrationally, either ignore them (if they're in a position of authority over you), or point out the absurdity of their comments in as subtle a way possible. Don't come at them with emotional arguments; it's like putting oil on fire. They respect smart people, so be smart.
Also, it's an INFp tendency to be open and self-deprecating. I've learned not to be this way in business situations because it can be a liability; if people see your flaws, it makes them think that you're easy to take advantage of, and you're opening yourself up to all sorts of trouble when that happens. My business motto is "friendly, but distant." Putting on the veneer of an aloof, yet competent individual is my shield, and though it's not always the best way to make friends and business associates, it's a good way to earn respect.
Another thing with ESTjs as bosses: do what they want, give them what they want, and leave it at that. Don't let them know anything about you, and don't try to win them over, because it won't work.
One more thing... we INFps need to work on being more assertive. While it's great to be agreeable and easy-going, you need to protect yourself in today's world, so learn to stand up for yourself!
I respect ESTjs, I really do. I just don't connect with them, and they concern me because of our radically different ideals. But with a few adjustments, we can peacefully co-exist.

[Kalinoche buenanoche]

i've noticed that she does not post anymore.maybe he did something to her.we should send a spy.

[wacey]

^I am only asking these questions for the sake of discussionN they are not directed at anyone in particular. I can only speak from my own thoughts and experiences and in no way mean to impune on the experiences of others, which maybe vastly different. I think of opposing quadras as sort of like plants. A beta tropical fern is very much at home in the warm and wet climate of the tropics. If it was left outside, even in summer time in the temperate climate of the northern latitudes it would quickly wither and die. The northern latitudesare a perfect home of the opposing deltas, who can handle the climate. Take a northen plant, let's say a cedar tree and plant it in the tropics, it would live for a little bit, but eventually it too would wither and die. They are both plants, but they have different needs and preferences. In the same way, personalities have differing needs and requirements. I am not saying never travel to a different climate, or quadra, I am saying for how long in your heart of hearts can you really stay planted there? And why would you want to? Is love really enough? And when is it not enough?

[Iris]

I think of opposing quadras as sort of like plants. A beta tropical fern is very much at home in the warm and wet climate of the tropics. If it was left outside, even in summer time in the temperate climate of the northern latitudes it would quickly wither and die. The northern latitudesare a perfect home of the opposing deltas, who can handle the climate. Take a northen plant, let's say a cedar tree and plant it in the tropics, it would live for a little bit, but eventually it too would wither and die. They are both plants, but they have different needs and preferences. In the same way, personalities have differing needs and requirements. I am not saying never travel to a different climate, or quadra, I am saying for how long in your heart of hearts can you really stay planted there? And why would you want to? Is love really enough? And when is it not enough?

@Wacey I agree that your own quadra might be the best place to flouish. I have been surrounded by people from my opposing quadra all of my life. At times it has made me feel freakishly different and inferior. And like I have this adult veneer that I put on over a heart that won't grow up. The result has been that I tend to work alone, and not with my friends. I recently came to know someone who I believe is my dual. It is a type of person that I would never have noticed if he hadn't been thrown into my world, but we have great conversations, we get work done easily, and he is inspired, not annoyed by my ideas. That is great, and I enjoy the occasions that we are together. But I do not need him to make my life complete. I have to go right now but have a few additional thoughts that I will try to post later.

[wacey]

@Iris, Oh?You said something earlier about ease of communication. You said it was not as important then love. I would respectfully disagree, ease of communication makes a relationship so much easier and fullfilling. And being able to share that ease with a personality who is vastly different and yet complimentary to your own is a real joy, trust me. I am no saint or zen master that walk around spouting universal love for everyone and every personality.my whole life I had been forced to live with people I would never choose to. And although I had grown to love them, finding that ease of communication is something else. Its like oil in the machine, things just run smoother. This thread is about a conflictor pairing though. All intertypes are equal in my mind, conflictors are no different from duals in that love can still exsist. It just that in a conflictor relationship that love is going to be harder to see and feel because of uncompatible and repeling personality types. This means it is going to take a lot more work, and in my view, unless the individual is looking for spiritual growth, why torture yourself by sharing a life with a person who cannot understand who you are nor fullfill the basic psycological needs of your personalities heart?

[Iris]

@Iris, Oh?You said something earlier about ease of communication. You said it was not as important then love. I would respectfully disagree, ease of communication makes a relationship so much easier and fullfilling. And being able to share that ease with a personality who is vastly different and yet complimentary to your own is a real joy, trust me. I am no saint or zen master that walk around spouting universal love for everyone and every personality.my whole life I had been forced to live with people I would never choose to. And although I had grown to love them, finding that ease of communication is something else. Its like oil in the machine, things just run smoother. This thread is about a conflictor pairing though. All intertypes are equal in my mind, conflictors are no different from duals in that love can still exsist. It just that in a conflictor relationship that love is going to be harder to see and feel because of uncompatible and repeling personality types. This means it is going to take a lot more work, and in my view, unless the individual is looking for spiritual growth, why torture yourself by sharing a life with a person who cannot understand who you are nor fullfill the basic psycological needs of your personalities heart?

My original post in this thread was to make a comment about IEIs. I can't really offer insight into the IEI/LSE relationship, just thoughts about conflicting quadras. My own experience with my conflictor and my views on love probably belong in another thread - I will probsbly start one in a few days, as time allows. It has been interesting hearing your thoughts, and I will look forward to continuing the discussion.

[Beautiful sky]

People keep saying, "any relationship can work as long as you're attracted to one another and that you can talk to each other." My parents are ISFJ and INTp and they've been married for 35 years; they've had a good sex life, they've always been attracted to one another and they argue talk all the time; they've been able to make a relationship last because they have an extension of relationships outside their marriage; they have us, our extended family, they have dual pairs and dual support constantly on the outside. It's been a marriage, a relationship; at no point can I confidently say that it's been whole. Like two parts drifting and when colliding, they become resentful, angry, frustrated, in able to fit.

[betterthan]

It's shit.

Here is my experience, and it's heavy;

My MUM is my conflictor lol, yay. Our advice just bounces off each other. I remember one time, she was driving me home, and a sign said 'road closed ahead' and she thought 'it would probably be open, so let's go see' and I was like 'no mum...I don't think IT IS!' and she carried on driving and it wasn't open. That sounds really mundane, but little things like that just really piss me off - on two levels - one, she ISN'T listening to me on advice she *clearly* needs (which will stop her from doing inane shit - and it's fucking infuriating when she does it, completely disregarding my advice - if she listened, that stuff wouldn't happen, like we wouldn't have had to waste ten minutes driving to a road that is signposted as closed LOL), 2 - she's really devaluing, and it's insulting - I feel unvalued, and criticized and that makes me furious.

Secondly I don't think she's healthy at all. My EIE sister is a crack head, soulless and without much of a future because she's too lazy to do any kind of work for it. My mum ALWAYS makes a million excuses for her, and can't connect the dots, that my sister is like that because of HER. And that she is rude and lifeless because she feels unloved and without anyone (my mum can't even accept that - that my sister is possibly without real friends, because somehow that makes her a failure as a parent) - they can't give her what she needs if they don't accept what is, I tell them what is but it just bounces off them, and they are stuck in this unhealthy mess because nothing changes because they can't take responsibility for the shitty people they are and their bad parenting. And I'm always out to make it right, and to uncover the truth of the bullshit situation - upheld my SEI sister, who the world revolves around, that their behavior and everything is fucking fine, when it's not fucking fine and saying it's fine and not taking responsibility for yourself is continuing to damn everyone in the family. Your Ni insight is not welcome, when these people NEED it.

Her Te is NOT welcome. When she starts suggesting things, it's so dull and angering. And I revolt by becoming lifeless, slowing right down to never do what she asks. My SLE boyfriend sometimes tries to order me and I do the same, I just slow right down, never doing what they tell me to do. Funnily enough my LSE mum LOVES my boyfriend, because she thinks someone is bringing some control and order to my mess of a life (i'm the family scapegoat, which now makes me laugh the extent to which she ignores the massive problem of my sister). She always puts me down in snide ways when we are around others, which i'm only just realizing is pathetic rather than something to feel bad about myself for. She thinks my life needs a Te rework. Well my life turns out to be fine when she's not fucking in it - i'm full of love and passion and I SUCCEED in life, and I think she resents that because it proves her wrong, she was wrong about me, and she couldn't save me, she seems aware that my success highlights the flaws in her - we were battling it out always, successes is the only way you ever win. Living with her is what contributed to me being lifeless, lazy and sad.

I tried to make the situation 'okay' by bringing kindness and understanding. I've tried that for a long time. But it's just not worth it because I am never accepted no matter how much I try to heal the situation. I used to be so angry and argumentative when I was a kid, I thought I was the problem, I grew up and developed so much compassion and kindness for people, and I thought I could make it better, but you can't rearrange everything in you, or anything in you so that it's okay - it never will be. I feel like for most of my life I've seen myself through her eyes, which is really painful. Like I was defective or not good enough, I spent so long being angry and closed off and frightened that I was bad. It's weird. Because I know there is always this level of respect or admiration there, between us, somehow it makes it so much harder. Like she tells me how much she respects my passion and relates to it, and how i'm beautiful and that she's proud . And it makes it harder. Because I think if I could just be a little 'right' then...

so it's terrible. & i'm not even gonna leave some defensive comment preempting someone ripping into me because I own my feelings in this situation now, i'm not ashamed of it or what it might mean. i know it doesn't mean anything, it was just some shitty relationship that was unfairly formed.

[Absurd]

I remember one time, she was driving me home, and a sign said 'road closed ahead' and she thought 'it would probably be open, so let's go see'

She 'thought'.

Get her to a zoo crocodile section where the sign says 'danger crocodiles - no swimming', let her take her clothes off and swim. When the crocodiles are going to end the meal inquire about what was she 'thinking' when she did that. But I agree, it never hurts to check, so your mum isn't totally at fault there, one might argue the sign is at fault.

Better yet, trade yourself for an EII and all problems are going to disappear - best advice ever.

[betterthan]

She 'thought'.

Get her to a zoo crocodile section where the sign says 'danger crocodiles - no swimming', let her take her clothes off and swim. When the crocodiles are going to end the meal inquire about what was she 'thinking' when she did that. But I agree, it never hurts to check, so your mum isn't totally at fault there, one might argue the sign is at fault.

Better yet, trade yourself for an EII and all problems are going to disappear - best advice ever.

[Scapegrace]

People keep saying, "any relationship can work as long as you're attracted to one another and that you can talk to each other." My parents are ISTp and INTp and they've been married for 35 years; they've had a good sex life, they've always been attracted to one another and they argue talk all the time; they've been able to make a relationship last because they have an extension of relationships outside their marriage; they have us, our extended family, they have dual pairs and dual support constantly on the outside. It's been a marriage, a relationship; at no point can I confidently say that it's been whole. Like two parts drifting and when colliding, they become resentful, angry, frustrated, in able to fit.

And yet it's "working" for them and your relationship of "duality" lasted what? A month and a half?

[Absurd]

And yet it's "working" for them and your relationship of "duality" lasted what? A month and a half?

I think there was a lot of sign reading involved.

[Beautiful sky]

And yet it's "working" for them and your relationship of "duality" lasted what? A month and a half?

Duality does not account for external circumstances, like psychosis, sociopathic behaviors, abuse and in ability to model and follow good relationships examples, one's life experiences; it says, you are this type and his is this and if you open up and remain fully insync, it will work and there will be good communication.

[Iris]

I see IEIs keeping quiet about things that are important to them, due to their natural diplomacy, and it makes me sad to see their efforts being overlooked when they do feel passionate enough about something to speak out. IEIs are wonderful and gentle people. Find someone to nurture you and never let the way you have been treated as a child intrude into your future. Try to leave it behind, because any bitterness will only hold you back from blossoming into the future. The future, and the good you are equipped to do, is everything.

[betterthan]

I see IEIs keeping quiet about things that are important to them, due to their natural diplomacy, and it makes me sad to see their efforts being overlooked when they do feel passionate enough about something to speak out. IEIs are wonderful and gentle people. Find someone to nurture you and never let the way you have been treated as a child intrude into your future. Try to leave it behind, because any bitterness will only hold you back from blossoming into the future. The future, and the good you are equipped to do, is everything.

That was beautiful, thank you ^_^.

[noid]

Me: Hey, if you have time/interest, read over this story that ISFp wrote. She mustered the effort to put all her funny genius into writing but as you'll see, it needs major editing. She asked me to do it, but I'm no expert! Plus, I've never-ever felt comfy editing other people's writings. Could you give it a looksy and let me know if there is anything that you'd change.

ESTj: WOW, interesting...hummmm... I'll give you a call and we'll talk about it.

OVER THE PHONE:

ESTj: OMG, what did you think about it????

Me: I enjoyed seeing animals through her eyes. I mean, who imagines such things!? The twist at the end had me laughing out loud.

ESTj: Really? Honestly, I couldn't get through it. All those pronouns! I couldn't tell who was who. It was so disconnected.

Me: Yeah, I know. She's aware of this, that's why she asked me to help edit. It didn't bother me, it's just technique she needs to work on. What did you think about the story?

ESTj: Uhmmm, that's another thing. It was kind of weird. A cat falling in love with a dog...and admiring it from afar...not being able to get together. It's weird no?

Me: Haha, it doesn't bother me.

ESTj: Hey, do you think it was inspired by her own life? You know, her being...gay?

Me: Yeah, the thought crossed my mind.

ESTj: Have you ever stopped and wonder if she...ever...had feelings for you? haha

Me: Haha, no.

ESTj: INFj gets really agitated by gay people. He says they complicate their lives. They complain about their lives yet they're the ones choosing the behaviors/lifestyle. If it's causing them so much trouble, why would they pursue it?

Me: Yeah, I dunno. I don't really know what she feels. What it's like for her.

ESTj: She doesn't talk to you about it?

Me: I don't feel comfortable asking about it.

ESTj: REALLY? I imagined you would.

Me: No, not with super personal things like that.

ESTj: But she's always been a good friend of yours.

Me: Yeah, but...she's very private about relationship stuff.

ESTj: But why don't you ask? She might want to talk about this stuff with someone.

Me: True.

ESTj: Are you comfortable talking about this?

Me: Not really, hahaha.

ESTj: I could tell.

Me: Yeah, I just feel like I'm gossiping. I dunno, she's my pal, you know?

ESTj: Yeah, I know. Just tell me whenever you don't want to talk about something. Seriously, just tell me. Okay? Please do me that favor.

Me: haha, okay.

INFj - ESTj
"Me" is mistyped like 90% of INFp here wanting to feel special

IRL ESTj & INFp are ok for the first second, then INFp don't get a fuck about what ESTj is speaking about when conversation begin, and ask always "why", when not being amused and/or deranged by all the commonplace ESTj is conveying.
INFp take ESTj for a mental idiot because he melt various information incoherent way and think it's absolute, while ESTj take INFp for a unconfident moron who can't assert his "philosophy" as absolute, Te way.



INFj - INFp :

http://personalitycafe.com/infp-foru...eal-world.html

Tuan is INFp, other are mainly INFj including myself (no_id)

In this conversation, there is only cool INFj, who stayed aware of Ni through time. So the conflict is not that apparent : perception is somewhat similar, Tuan more Ni than Fi, other more Fi than Ni. When tuan share conclusion on scientism or other stuff, INFj 1) don't understand 2) disagree. But perception is basically the same.
When INFj are asshole (not the case here), you know "idealism is for kid, I work hard, Ive a hard life, life is like that, Im proud ect ect ect", you can expect a high degree of incomprehension beetween IEI and EII.

[Beautiful sky]

ESTj: INFj gets really agitated by gay people. He says they complicate their lives. They complain about their lives yet they're the ones choosing the behaviors/lifestyle. If it's causing them so much trouble, why would they pursue it?

^WTF?

Noid, pls learn to type.

[noid]

do ya know any IEI IRL ?

sometime I wonder if it's me who have the only real version of socionic in my head

guy there is simply NO discussion like the one maze shared beetween ESTj and INFp... In maze discussion there is mutual understanding (just by vocabulary like "imagine, might" and other conditionnal stuff said by both part - the supposedly INFp and the ESTj ! that suggest more 2 Ne valuer type...), just point of view incomprehension... Perhaps it's not INFj ESTj but for sur it's not INFp ESTj... It's like the thread where you guy listed conflictor relationship (IEI - LSE, EII - SLE...), it's just you mistyping, that don't happen IRL...

you know my brother and myself have often moral/point of view incomprehension it's not for this reason we aren't the same type... I disagree on stuff especially on goal and spirituality with my girlfriend and that's not for this reason we aren't dual....