me

[Gilly]

Damn, I hate it when my boyfriend gets shown up, even when he is full of shit

[Slacker]

It's odd how we all change our minds about these things as time goes by

http://the16types.no-ip.info/forums/...light=joy+esfp

[Expat]

Well, personally I still think ESFp is more likely than INTp -- but I honestly don't know.

[XoX]

It's odd how we all change our minds about these things as time goes by

http://the16types.no-ip.info/forums/...light=joy+esfp

I don't think it is any more odd than democrats and republicans oscillating between being the winners and losers of elections

[Gilly]

While all of the things said in this thread of Joy so far are true, I personally made my case based on the behaviors that I have observed in her the WHOLE time I've known her. We haven't always known about Joy's grandiose real estate schemes, problem solving abilities, health-related issues, plans, or her "Te." However, unless I am sorely mistaken, we have all always known Joy to be as I have described her. This is my biggest reason for thinking SEE. There are some things, including personal image (however unreliable) that, to me, suggest that Gamma NT is a possibility. Can't rule it out. But atm, I find my own case for SEE the most convincing It's the only objective model of her behavior over a long period of time that has nothing to do with the snippets about herself that she has quite obviously and intentionally "fed" us. She emphasized her cognitive processes and intellectual-ness as an ILE, her friendliness and caring nature as an SEI, and her enterprising tendencies, forsight, and busines sense as an LIE. I absolutely cannot place any stake in anything Joy says that is, or even could potentially be, relevant to her type, so I'm going for the big picture.

[Expat]

Not ESI, SEI.

Sorry for nitpicking.

[XoX]

I think it is funny that Joy makes a thread with the subject of "me" (just out of boredom without real intent to re-evaluate her type) and instantly it becomes one of the biggest and most popular threads in the history of the forum.

[Gilly]

It's odd how we all change our minds about these things as time goes by

http://the16types.no-ip.info/forums/...light=joy+esfp

Yeah, I was pretty dumb back then. Yuck.

But damn, look at this...

My experiences with my ISFp sister also seem to suggest that she is not my dual. To me ISFps are too weak. It annoys me. My sister is too meek. I love her and we get along, but I get so frustrated about how she doesn't DO anything about her problems. For example at work her employers treat her unfairly, and she won't do anything about it. If I was the one in that situation, I could fix it without causing a problem. In fact, when I start a new job, after 3 months the people who didn't used to like eachother are buddies, and it is because of me. Of course, I end up stiring up all kinds of drama. Sad

Didn't Joy just say that her sister is probably INFj? HOLY SUPERVISION, BATMAN!

The only person from the forum who has met me IRL is discojoe. We'd spent hours a night talking to eachother on line for a couple of months, so his idea of what I'd be like was based on how I presented myself via broadband. After meeting me he said that he was pleasantly suprised. He said that he wasn't expecting me to be so bouncy and smiley and feminine.

Need I say...anything?

[Gilly]

I think it is funny that Joy makes a thread with the subject of "me" (just out of boredom without real intent to re-evaluate her type) and instantly it becomes one of the biggest and most popular threads in the history of the forum.

EXACTLY.

[Gilly]

Not ESI, SEI.

Sorry for nitpicking.

Dank u, btw :wink:

[anndelise]

One of the things that I don't understand and perhaps someone would be kind enough to explain this to me, is that when it comes to Joy, we are expected to consider the differences between how she is on the forum, and how she is in real life. We're supposed to accept that she's quite capable of explaining things clearly in person....implying that she has the mental and verbal capabilities to do so....but that her underdeveloped writing composition skill prevents her from doing so online. In most cases, if a person can speak it, they can write it. But it doesn't necessarily follow that if they can write it they can speak it (due to the ability to edit, delete, rearrange, etc.)

However, Joy does not give each of us that same consideration. She will question people's types based on what is written in the forum...and even then generally only on a few posts, or posts that center around a specific topic. Even when attempts are made to explain to her that in real life, *I* have difficulties in verbal communications, BECAUSE I do not have the editing, deleting, rearranging capabilities in verbal as I do in writing....she pretty much ignores that information and sticks with her initial assessment.

We are asked to make allowances for whatever medication she happens to be on, and yet she does not always make allowances for someone else who is on medication (even if it's a similar medication she was once on).

We are asked to consider what might actually be going on inside her head, and yet when someone explains to her what it is that they are doing that allows a certain feel to their posts, the issues they have to deal with during the writing of those posts, and/or the repercussions they wind up having to deal with after certain types of posts, she rejects or ignores those explainations, once again sticking with her initial assessment.

We are expected to accept her descriptions as an ENTj (even though she has a history of describing herself as various other types), and yet she will dismiss other people's descriptions who have remained consistent in their type, thus dismissing any feedback they attempt to give...and all without feeling any need whatsoever to provide them her supposedly logical reasonings.


Will someone please explain to me why we are expected to give Joy certain allowances that she herself does not give others?

[Gilly]

One word: pathology.

[Slacker]

One word: pathology.

I think it's "obstinate"

[Expat]

But damn, look at this...

My experiences with my ISFp sister also seem to suggest that she is not my dual. To me ISFps are too weak. It annoys me. My sister is too meek. I love her and we get along, but I get so frustrated about how she doesn't DO anything about her problems. For example at work her employers treat her unfairly, and she won't do anything about it. If I was the one in that situation, I could fix it without causing a problem. In fact, when I start a new job, after 3 months the people who didn't used to like eachother are buddies, and it is because of me. Of course, I end up stiring up all kinds of drama. Sad

Didn't Joy just say that her sister is probably INFj? HOLY SUPERVISION, BATMAN!

The only person from the forum who has met me IRL is discojoe. We'd spent hours a night talking to eachother on line for a couple of months, so his idea of what I'd be like was based on how I presented myself via broadband. After meeting me he said that he was pleasantly suprised. He said that he wasn't expecting me to be so bouncy and smiley and feminine.

Need I say...anything?

Very good.

[Gilly]

You know, I honestly didn't even have an opinion prior to this thread (and if I did, it was ILI or LIE), but I think I've convinced myself almost entirely of SEE

[Gilly]

One word: pathology.

I think it's "obstinate"

The quality, not the dichotomy

[Expat]

Will someone please explain to me why we are expected to give Joy certain allowances that she herself does not give others?

I can't speak for her, but since you addressed this question to "someone" --

My opinion is that Joy does not expect any such one-sided kind of reasoning; she gives her opinion and defends it, both on her own type and on others. She has consistently withstood criticisms and doubts on her type, and stood her ground (or remained stubborn, as others might prefer to put it); she might think that others would naturally have the same attitude (or resilience, or thick skin, or stubborness, or whatever) as herself.

[Slacker]

She gives her arguments as strongly as she can. Then, separately, she opposes the arguments of others as strongly as she can, regardless of what specific arguments they are, and regardless of whether she's used similar arguments herself. I don't do that either, but I don't think it's uncommon. Maybe that gives some clues as to type, I don't know. Sounds Se, doesn't it?

[Expat]

You have relationship problems. And I never said you were dynamic; I think Static/Dynamic is pretty imaginary as far actually observing it in someone's conscious behavior goes. I've never seen any kind of difference in behavior, self-perception, perception of reality, etc, so I'm pretty convinced at this point that it's either purely subconscious or altogether fake.

I completely and entirely agree.

I don't, obviously; I think that Static/Dynamic is the key to almost everything. However, probably it is difficult to perceive it or notice it in oneself or someone else distinctly from the temperament as a whole.

[Gilly]

You have relationship problems. And I never said you were dynamic; I think Static/Dynamic is pretty imaginary as far actually observing it in someone's conscious behavior goes. I've never seen any kind of difference in behavior, self-perception, perception of reality, etc, so I'm pretty convinced at this point that it's either purely subconscious or altogether fake.

I completely and entirely agree.

I don't, obviously; I think that Static/Dynamic is the key to almost everything. However, probably it is difficult to perceive it or notice it in oneself or someone else distinctly from the temperament as a whole.

Yeah, that's basically what I was saying. I think it's obviously "there" with regards to how it manifests in temperments, attitudes towards reality, etc, but I'm not sure about the existence of an actual mental difference in cognitive process that is REALLY distinguishable in external behavior.

[anndelise]

She gives her arguments as strongly as she can. Then, separately, she opposes the arguments of others as strongly as she can, regardless of what specific arguments they are, and regardless of whether she's used similar arguments herself. I don't do that either, but I don't think it's uncommon. Maybe that gives some clues as to type, I don't know. Sounds Se, doesn't it?

It's a shame that so many posts got deleted, as there were some very recent episodes in which Joy would NOT provide reasonings other than "name is (different)type" and when asked for reasons would NOT provide them upon request...something about it being an opinion and therefore no reasonings needed, or something like that.

Admittedly, once in a while she WILL give reasons. But it seems to me that when the person attempts to explain why something might be perceived the way Joy perceived it, those get dismissed without providing reasons..again.


(expat, thank you also for your reply)
(nicky, my thanking expat does not mean i'm not thanking you as well)

[Joy]

One of the things that I don't understand and perhaps someone would be kind enough to explain this to me, is that when it comes to Joy, we are expected to consider the differences between how she is on the forum, and how she is in real life. We're supposed to accept that she's quite capable of explaining things clearly in person....implying that she has the mental and verbal capabilities to do so....but that her underdeveloped writing composition skill prevents her from doing so online. In most cases, if a person can speak it, they can write it. But it doesn't necessarily follow that if they can write it they can speak it (due to the ability to edit, delete, rearrange, etc.)

However, Joy does not give each of us that same consideration. She will question people's types based on what is written in the forum...and even then generally only on a few posts, or posts that center around a specific topic. Even when attempts are made to explain to her that in real life, *I* have difficulties in verbal communications, BECAUSE I do not have the editing, deleting, rearranging capabilities in verbal as I do in writing....she pretty much ignores that information and sticks with her initial assessment.

We are asked to make allowances for whatever medication she happens to be on, and yet she does not always make allowances for someone else who is on medication (even if it's a similar medication she was once on).

We are asked to consider what might actually be going on inside her head, and yet when someone explains to her what it is that they are doing that allows a certain feel to their posts, the issues they have to deal with during the writing of those posts, and/or the repercussions they wind up having to deal with after certain types of posts, she rejects or ignores those explainations, once again sticking with her initial assessment.

We are expected to accept her descriptions as an ENTj (even though she has a history of describing herself as various other types), and yet she will dismiss other people's descriptions who have remained consistent in their type, thus dismissing any feedback they attempt to give...and all without feeling any need whatsoever to provide them her supposedly logical reasonings.


Will someone please explain to me why we are expected to give Joy certain allowances that she herself does not give others?

This is exactly how things aren't.

People take stuff I say in entirely the wrong tone... like they think that if I don't change my mind about something because they tell me to that I'm being insistent that they believe the same thing I do, which couldn't be any further from the truth. Why must we all agree in order to move on?

There has not been one time where I didn't give consideration to a person's medications if they mention such.

The issue with "not writing well" is more an issue of tone (mine and others) as well as the whole "group situation" thing. If I were writing a paper for a class it would be excellent... but papers aren't interactive.

I believe I've gone over this "not backing things up" thing at least a dozen times now. *sigh* Pretty much.... Perhaps what I say is just based on my gut reaction. Perhaps I don't care about it enough to go through the literally day long process of trying to explain something here. Perhaps someone said something that made sense and I realized I could be wrong, and even said so, only to have others say, "No, you still haven't explained yourself." Never in my life, not even working in the 3 and 4 year old room at a day care, have I heard "Why Why Why Why Why" so many times in a day. My opinion on the reason for this? Most of the people here are under stimulated intellectually, socially, and emotionally.


Gilligan, do you remember what happened in Kim's thread? How I cited her overall behavior here and in the chat then she answered with one post, and I immediately back off of the type/functional observation I had provided and said I didn't know, then talked to her in PMs for a while and then realized that ENFp makes the most sense. Maybe I shouldn't expect you to understand. Come back in a decade or two when you've been through a divorce and/or a life-threatening illness (you know, life beyond a dorm room). There's a chance you'll understand at that point.

So to summarize:

1.) I do not assume that other people should agree with something just because I say it. They should not assume that I owe them an in depth explanation on anything I write.

2.) According to my understanding of this theory and myself I am ENTj > INTp > ESFp. Everyone is obviously entitled to their own opinions based on their understanding of this theory and me. At the end of the day, none of this matters.

3.) Are things back to normal yet? :wink:


And now, ladies and gentlemen, it is time for me to start my day.

[FDG]

I don't understand why people should have different personality on here and in real life. It's completely unconceivable, to be able to modify one's self for thousands of posts.

[Slacker]

It certainly seems like a lot of work. I can see how someone very introverted could come across as extraverted. But function use - I can't imagine faking something like that. You'd have to know the functions pretty darn well to do it effectively.

[Khamelion]

Need I say...anything?

First off, posts that old are quite irrelivant. Their only relevance COULD be taken from our thought processes at the time that lead us to say certain things.

Secondly, lol.

Third, no comment.

[Gilly]

Ok, I'll give you that, but Joy has ALWAYS expressed such thoughts, so we can assume that whatever thought process was going on then that lead her to make that statement is a fairly consistent one.

Secondly, what are they?

[XoX]

I don't understand why people should have different personality on here and in real life. It's completely unconceivable, to be able to modify one's self for thousands of posts.

Well modifying in the long term would be hard. But emphasizing parts of your personality which you don't IRL is an option. For example someone might show a more "serious" side of themselves in writing. Someone might show a more "playful" side. The balance of personal qualities shown here and IRL could be different.

[Khamelion]

Ok, I'll give you that, but Joy has ALWAYS expressed such thoughts, so we can assume that whatever thought process was going on then that lead her to make that statement is a fairly consistent one.

Secondly, what are they?

Third, no comment.

[Gilly]

Lame.

[Khamelion]

Lame.

Privacy respect ftw. Not lame.

[Gilly]

Why are you trying to be unteasable? THAT is lame.

[Khamelion]

Why are you trying to be unteasable? THAT is lame.

I'm lame for not being ditzy? =/

[Gilly]

No, you're lame for not playing along

[Khamelion]

I don't understand why people should have different personality on here and in real life. It's completely unconceivable, to be able to modify one's self for thousands of posts.

Well modifying in the long term would be hard. But emphasizing parts of your personality which you don't IRL is an option. For example someone might show a more "serious" side of themselves in writing. Someone might show a more "playful" side. The balance of personal qualities shown here and IRL could be different.

Well FDG, think of it this way. Some people don't care enough to TRY and express their full personality on the internet.

For instance, discojoe. Only a small percentage of effort goes into his posts, and as you can tell, they are mainly for comedic purposes Or for righting some sort of intellectual injustice. So does this mean he is constantly making crazy rude jokes and telling everyone how immoral and useless they are to the world? NOPE!

Okay he does make the jokes but he isn't AS offensive. :wink:

If you really know Peter, you know his jokes are jokes, not offensive attacks. Unless he wants them to be and hates you. Which is hardly ever.



So its the same with most of us here I think. My ditzy, girly side shows up most prominately on the internet. It's my "try to get everyone to like me" side I suppose.

Trick is, what sides are Joy letting the forum see?

[Gilly]

That's exactly the problem.

[Khamelion]

Solution?

[Gilly]

Exactly what I've done: examine the consistent behaviors instead of the inconsistent ones.

[Khamelion]

Thats just organizing information you have in your head, not really examining the truth. Which seems quite impossible without Joy's cooperation.

[Gilly]

Well, she's given us so many different "variants" of "Joy" that the only reliable information we have at ALL is what I've examined. Obviously we can't get the COMPLETE picture; I never said that

[Joy]

The only person from the forum who has met me IRL is discojoe. We'd spent hours a night talking to eachother on line for a couple of months, so his idea of what I'd be like was based on how I presented myself via broadband. After meeting me he said that he was pleasantly suprised. He said that he wasn't expecting me to be so bouncy and smiley and feminine.

Need I say...anything?

just thought I'd add...

How would you expect me to act when I finally get to see my boyfriend for the first time? I think "giddy" would be an understatement for most people in that situation.