me

[aestrivex]

I can't accept this chart... none of the insides of the letters are colored in

[anndelise]

here's the chart with the dichotomies that anndelise didn't disagree with me about

i did not agree with careless/farsighted nor result/process
i am unable to form an opinion on those at this time

[Joy]

1.) http://the16types.no-ip.info/forums/...pic.php?t=5877

2.) It does not make more sense to say, for example, that I'm more likely an SF type because I scored 4 in ISFj + 4 in ESFp, and only 6 in ENTj + 1 in INTp.

1) you have your scoring wrong

2) as for your link, i'm not sure any of us can read minds, it's an awful long post, and i have no idea what support your hoping it will provide.
You're the supposed logical narrator, please do so.


(joy, i'm not irritated nor anything like that. i'm just providing my reasons for my opinion.)

As for the benefits of all this, i realized something about one of the reasons why I have issues with esfps. ENFp and ESFp are both obstinate irrationals. However, while the ESFp is Resolute, at least the ENFp is Reasonable.

Being a logical declarer does not mean that I should have unlimited patience for arguing the tiniest details point by point on something when we don't even mean the same things when we use the same terminology.

It seems that you're using the definition the English language provides us with (rather than what they mean when used to define dichotomies) when using the words Reasonable, Resolute, Compliant, and Obstinate.

If you don't mind, I'd like an answer to my response about the Asker/Declarer dichotomy (this isn't adressed to anyone in particular). If you don't see most of my questions as containing a hidden statement (or if you do see hidden questions in my statements), you are definitely not reading my tone properly.

[Joy]

here's the chart with the dichotomies that anndelise didn't disagree with me about

i did not agree with careless/farsighted nor result/process
i am unable to form an opinion on those at this time

[Gilly]

Did you just completely neglect what I told you about Asker/Declarer? It makes your supposed claims about hidden statements completely irrelevant.

You're right, it doesn't. Having Ne and Ti, however, means that it's plenty easy for you to flesh out your argument in a basic format that is logically connected without too much trouble. The fact that you see it as a chore speaks in every way to your being SEE, and not LIE.

[Joy]

Not that it matters... but there are at least like half a dozen people here, many of which are Gammas (and most of the rest are Deltas), who see me as ENTj... I'm wondering if they'll post anything in here.

[Gilly]

I wonder if the fact that none of them have posted is a reflection of both their supposed abundance and confidence in their (read: your) opinions.

[Joy]

Did you just completely neglect what I told you about Asker/Declarer? It makes your supposed claims about hidden statements completely irrelevant.

I missed that when you posted it. In response... looks like yet another premise that we disagree on.

The fact that you see it as a chore speaks in every way to your being SEE, and not LIE.

ENTj's have endless patience for defining and redefining premises and terminology and often disagreeing in the end? (particularly with people who take argumentative tones, making it appear that they're missing the entire point of what's the ENTj has said...)

[Gilly]

Wait, how is that a premise that we "disagree" on? Look at the description of the dichotomy. Christ.

No, but they're willing to do it when it's asked of them ONCE.

And I wasn't the one who asked you for that link, so cut the "argumentative tone" crap. Ann has been nothing if not polite.

[anndelise]

here's the chart with the dichotomies that anndelise didn't disagree with me about

i did not agree with careless/farsighted nor result/process
i am unable to form an opinion on those at this time

lol, true true
but you do realize that you're proving my point about resolute with obstinancy :wink:

here is a classic example of how you prefer to ignore the input of others and keep only that which supports your own.
Expat has never been like that. And the only INTps who're like that is *clears throat* Phaedrus.

this new chart carries a subtle suggestion that I actually agreed to the whole thing. the least you could do is put the parts i actually agreed to in a seperate color, thus separating what I DID agree to from everything else

[aestrivex]

the number of ENTj dichotomies on that chart by ann's dichotomy analysis proves nothing.

[maze]

lol ESFp <3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKCix3kYq1U

[Joy]

Impatience with hyper Ti-ism does not make me ExFp, it makes me Gamma or Delta. At this point if I try to stop chasing these points around I'll be accused of not backing up what I say, which is why I say that there's an argumentative tone. If I point this out, I'm accused of having a Ti PoLR, which brings us right back to the beginning of the post.

[anndelise]

i think i may have erred on my numbers
i am trying to recount
this would be so much easier if i had a blank chart to work from

[Joy]

the number of ENTj dichotomies on that chart by ann's dichotomy analysis proves nothing.

I was never trying to prove anything.

[Joy]

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...omiestable.gif

[aestrivex]

the number of ENTj dichotomies on that chart by ann's dichotomy analysis proves nothing.

I was never trying to prove anything.

stop fooling yourself.

[anndelise]

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/charismatic_irony/dichotomiestable.gif

*hugs joy*

thank you!!!!

[UDP]

Thank you, I can use that as well.


You are rewarded with a sincere-looking thumbs up

[Joy]

np ann

the number of ENTj dichotomies on that chart by ann's dichotomy analysis proves nothing.

I was never trying to prove anything.

stop fooling yourself.

actually, you're right... I there was something I was trying to prove. I was trying to prove this wrong:

Joy, I can't but help feeling really strongly that had the scores shown high in +Ni and -Te (entj and intp) then you would have jumped on that as proof that you were gamma nt.

I posted the other chart in response to some challenge by Gilligan. It was then met by another challenge by anndelise, at which point I decided that there's no reason for me to waste any more time fucking around with the numbers here.

[Joy]

lol <3 UDP

[anndelise]

First, apologies to all for my errors.

Second, either i totally screwed up the first time, or I'm totally screwing up this time.

Based on what we agree on: Resolute, Strategist, Positivist, Serious, Democratic, Extrovert, and Emotivist (I had forgotten to include Emotivist, but that shouldn't alone account for the severity of the discrepancies):

Alpha: (12)
esfj 3; isfp 3; Si+Fe=6
entp 3; intj 3; Ne+Ti=6

Beta: (12)
enfj 3; infp 3; Ni+Fe=6
estp 3; istj 3; Se+Ti=6

Delta: (12)
enfp 3; infj 3; Ne+Fi=6
estj 3; istp 3; Si+Te=6

Gamma: (20)
esfp 7; isfj 3; Se+Fi=10
entj 7; intp 3; Ni+Te=10

Based on what we agree on with reinin
gamma> anything else
SF/NT 16s> ST/NF 12s
gamma NT 10 and gamma SF 10
entj 7 & esfp 7 (all the others have scores of 3s)
(note: I placed entj first as the scores were even, and Joy believes entj)
____

Based on what I both agree and disagree with:
(Note: rational/irrational isn't on Joy's chart but is included in my count for irrationals)

Alpha (18)
esfj 4; isfp 4; Si+Fe=8
entp 6; intj 6; Ne+Ti=12

Beta: (18)
enfj 5; infp 5; Ni+Fe=10
estp 5; istj 5; Se+Ti=10

Delta: (18)
enfp 6; infj 4; Ne+Fi=10
estj 4; istp 6; Si+Te=10

Gamma: (26)
esfp 11; isfj 5; Se+Fi=16
entj 7; intp 5; Ni+Te=12
______________

so, based on my opinions combined with reinin
gamma>alpha>the other two
SF 24>NT 24>ST/NF 20
gamma SF 16> gamma NT 12> alpha NT 12
esfp 11> entj 7 (all the others have scores of 4 6's, 6 5's; 4 4's)


(Note, the chart is a hell of a lot easier keeping track of counts!!!!)

(Note: I'm pretty sure of the numbers now, but for those who want to verify, I don't know how to highlight anything in the chart, and paste on here, etc. Is somebody willing to do this so we can check numbers? (I think I've totally confused myself....I'll have to see if I can find out where the hell I screwed up at) Perhaps highlight in green what Joy and I agree on, red where we disagree but it's my opinion; and yellow where I have not yet formed an opinion? Oh, and include the rational/irrational by maybe highlighting the p in red (since we disagree) and highlighting the E in green (since we agree))

[Joy]

To color it, save the image to your computer, open it in paint (right click on it and click on "Edit"), pick the color you want from the bottom, click on the tool to the left that looks like a paint can tipping over, and click inside the boxes. If you accidentally change something you didn't want to change (which is easy to do lol), just go up the the "Edit" menu at the very top and click "Undo".

Here's a chart that I'd already made. It's based solely on your choices (not exactly what you were looking for, but it's what I have on hand):


Anndelise, putting aside the dichotomies, think back to our conversation yesterday. Did you see the Fi?

And to everyone else... where's the Fi? I don't believe I have strong Fi... that is the biggest reason why I believe I'm ENTj over ESFp. Fi is definitely something that I need my partner (or friend) to bring into the relationship.

[Slacker]

I personally see Joy as having an Fi dual-seeking function. If she PMs me, it's often about Fi stuff, but in a questioning way. Like her asking me why people are responding to something in one way or another.

That's why I thought she might be ESTj. She doesn't particularly seem to have an Si PoLR to me. She does seem to have some kind of Te thing going. She seems very interested in Si issues.

I don't understand Ni enough to comment on that.

I thought early on she might be ESFp but mainly because I see her and me as having something in common (though it's hard to put a finger on what - we're both from midwestern industrial cities and we both have young kids and it could be something like that), she reminds me of an old friend who is ESFp, and she seems to pose in her photos, which seems potentially ESFp-ish, but that isn't scientific at all. I think looking at what functions she seems to use points away from ESFp. She just doesn't seem like an F type at all to me - either Fi or Fe - but she definitely seems to prefer Fi over Fe.

[Gilly]

You don't always have to eat what's fed to you.

[Joy]

If you'd like, I could go through just the PoLR sections of ESFp, ESTj, ESTj, and INTp. (lol they're still too long, but eh well)

[Joy]

You don't always have to eat what's fed to you.

How is saying that I'm ESTj when I see Ni as my strongest function "eating what I fed her"? And under what circumstances would someone who sees me as Te dominant not be "eating what I fed them"?

[Slacker]

Was that directed at me? If Gilly thinks I think that because that's what you want me to think, he's simply mistaken.

[anndelise]

I personally see Joy as having an Fi dual-seeking function. If she PMs me, it's often about Fi stuff, but in a questioning way. Like her asking me why people are responding to something in one way or another.

hehehe
I find this funny (not you, SM)
When I attempt to point out to Joy why people are responding to something in one way or another, or how people are likely to respond to something she wrote, she calls it Fe, not Fi.

Most of the ESFps I've known have had issues understanding/figuring out other people's emotions. They know their own emotions, and what's going on in their own minds, and assume therefore it's what's going on in other minds. One of them showed some caring for another's feelings and thoughts, but when those feelings/thoughts were expressed to her, and they didn't match her own, she'd accuse them of all sorts of stuff, like lying, or trying to start an argument, etc. (Which is one reason why I've been so happy to see Manta begin to take into account other people's feelings, even if it's not the way I do it.)

[Gilly]

Well she had to throw in a LITTLE bit of originality Besides, you used to talk and ask for advice about Si stuff all the time to make it seem like it's weak in you (sorta like you do with all the Fi stuff). Blargh.

You've been feeding everyone Te for about 6 months, just like you fed us Fe as an ISFp and Ti as an ENTp, so doubtlessly everyone is going to think it to SOME extent, but Nicky has quite clearly devoured it, fork in hand.

[Gilly]

That's not to speak ill of you, btw, Nicky. I don't doubt that Joy has fooled plenty of people about various things before, myself included. I don't think she's EVIL or MANIPULATIVE, just misguided.

[Slacker]

I was about to bitch you out so thanks for the second post there.

Tell me where you see any F of any kind in her. My mind is very open to being changed.

[Slacker]

You know, if I've been manipulated it's because being authentic to who I am is a very big value of mine, and I assume it is for other people too. I don't understand why someone would work so hard to convey something contrary to what is naturally in them.

[Joy]

They know their own emotions

Emotions... rarely do I have even somewhat strong emotions, and when I do, I'm generally confused by them and it takes me a while to realize a lot of them. ExFps and IxFjs are especially good for helping me with this.

Relationships... I generally don't know how close I am to someone or if I'm important to them unless they make it known to me. I've often been surprised to find that someone cares about me or has an emotional attachment to me.

Moral judgments... most of the time when I actively seek out Fi from someone it's for help in this area. I very often ask Peter or Diana if it would be wrong for me to say or do something before I say or do it, ideally. It's not uncommon for me to ask them if something that I already did was wrong. I ask Expat about this stuff, too, as well as ENFps on occasion (they're a lot more strict about what it's okay to say to other people than Peter or Diana are lol). What Nicky was talking about was more of a "what did I do wrong" thing, but what anndelise was talking about is more of a "why people are upset" kind of thing. I don't want to know what is polite or expected of me. I want to know what is okay or not okay for me to do.

[XoX]

Joy: how do you see result vs process orientation in you? I could see you as process oriented but I don't know too much about the exacts of the dichotomies.

[Joy]

You've been feeding everyone Te for about 6 months, just like you fed us Fe as an ISFp and Ti as an ENTp

lol when was I ever Fe or Ti? I may have said I was and attributed different things to it, but I didn't actually act Fe or Ti (that I remember). That was a really fucked up period of my life.

[Joy]

Joy: how do you see result vs process orientation in you? I could see you as process oriented but I don't know too much about the exacts of the dichotomies.

I'm Result. It's not one of my strongest preferences though. I can't comment further on it right now though because I'm about to watch a movie.

[anndelise]

You've been feeding everyone Te for about 6 months, just like you fed us Fe as an ISFp and Ti as an ENTp

lol when was I ever Fe or Ti? I may have said I was and attributed different things to it, but I didn't actually act Fe or Ti (that I remember). That was a really fucked up period of my life.

I believe he's talking about the "proofs" you'd offer the forum for your being entp...and then the "proofs" you'd offer the forum for being isfp, etc.

allow me to repharse your last paragraph to help give you an idea of what some of us see:

" lol, when was I ever Fe or Ti or Te? I may have said I was and attributed different things to it, but I didn't actually act Fe or Ti or Te (that I remember). "

You put forth "proofs" and "descriptions of yourself" and "self observations" in the same manner then for Ne, Ti, Si, and something else, as you do for Te.

We trusted your "proofs" and "self descriptions" back then for each of them. And you kept changing what everything meant. What do you give us now to trust your self observations now? Can you at least understand why we have difficulties trusting your self observations?

As for your descriptions of Ni, at least *I* have told you that they could just as likely fit as descriptions for Ne. Also, when you attempt to describe Te, it's usually more of an anti-Ti thing than anything else. But I have noticed what seem to be your making attempts to pursue a Te hidden agenda. But pursuing Te and "being" Te are two different things.

[Gilly]

You've been feeding everyone Te for about 6 months, just like you fed us Fe as an ISFp and Ti as an ENTp

lol when was I ever Fe or Ti? I may have said I was and attributed different things to it, but I didn't actually act Fe or Ti (that I remember). That was a really fucked up period of my life.

Oh you did it. Whether you remember, or were faking, or are lying now, or not, you did.

I don't know what type Joy really is. I just know that she's having to try to hard at the present moment to appear LIE for her to really be one. Unless she's just that crazy...

However, if I had to answer, I would say that I see her F (particularly Se+Fi) in the fact that she loves to cultivate her relationships with people on the forum and spread her influence in precisely the manner that I've been pointing out: for her, it's PMing people, and developing relationships independant from the atmosphere of the forum. You'd never guess it, but Joy and I are rather good friends: we've spoken on the phone multiple times, and used to routinely offer one another life advice, consolation/condolences, etc.

I think Joy has stronger Fe than she tells us, or perhaps even really believes: she's perfectly capable of making people like her and ingratiating herself with anyone she comes across. However, for her, the relationship with the individual CLEARLY takes presidence over the "social" atmosphere: there have been numerous times when I've been arguing at least somewhat heatedly with Joy in a topic on the forum, and was suprised by a new PM in my inbox mid-bout about a completely different subject, in (to my boundless bewilderment) a perfectly genial and familiar tone. Throws me COMPLETELY off-guard (which is probably why she does it ).

Joy is also quite obviously a powerful and influential figure on the forum. Without having any particularly specialized or well-developed knowledge of socionics, she has risen to the position of "Queen Bee," and could hardly be deposed, even if someone dared to try She obviously knows how to get power (Se), and her preferred method is by being a highly visible (extroversion) and openly controversial (unvalued Fe, valued Se) figure in the grand scheme of things.

She has also always been unreceptive to the reasoning and complex explanations of others regarding the mechanics and workings of socionics, preferring clear, concise explanations of the basic criteria, along with what she sees as objective criteria and facts, in determining her type and that of others. Ti PoLR, Te Hidden Agenda.

Take that for whatever you will.

[XoX]

Ti PoLR, Te dual-seeking.

Informing post. Except for this last part. It would be Te hidden agenda not dual seeking.