Differences between LIE-ENTj and LSE-ESTj

[Grek0]

We can't go on with our lives without making decisions. To make those decisions, we need to constantly exercise judgment. Given that no one possesses absolute knowledge of any field, including himself, it is necessary to employ generalisation and categorisation among other tools. Socionics, like every system of typology and taxonomy (not only of personality types) generalises and categorises too. This is the only way to conceptually grasp and summarise an ocean of particulars in any way that may be of some practical and actionable use.

a) There is a difference between categorizing things/concepts and people. People cannot be neatly categorized.

b) I have said before that the way Socionics is handled around here, it is becoming more and more arbitrary. ESTjs ARE something to you, but they will not BE the same to others. So ESTjs ARE not what they seem to you. They APPEAR to be such. Or can you explain your judgement via functions? I maintain that I am sure you have met more ESTjs than you know, but you wouldn't recognize them. I also maintain that some of your ESTjs are not ESTjs. In conclusion, I think it is pointless to categorize people in terms of "they are this and they are that" with utter disregard for function use. What is TeSi? What does healthy TeSi do? Unhealthy TeSi? Ni PoLR? I think we have long reached a point where "I know 5 ESTjs and I am telling you, that is how they are" just doesn't get us anywhere (this is not to say that I haven't done it, too).

c) The practical use of Socionics is still a mystery to me. It helps me understand certain dynamics between myself and other people, but that's about it. As for actionable use, Socionics is not meant to act on it. It is meant to understand actions. I want to cry every time people say they want to meet their dual...

Anyway.

Kim, almost nothing can be "neatly" categorised. This doesn't mean we should dismiss categorisation as useless. We can;t, even if we wanted to.
Of course ESTjs and every other type I know or think I know are something to me, and not necessarily the same thing to others. We all judge based on what we have experienced while keeping an open mind to the possibility that our judgements may be wrong to various degrees. Your maintaining that i have met many ESTjs whom I have mistyped may be equally wrong too. At the end of the day, since we don't know each other, you have nothing upon which to base this supposition except for your dislike of my opinion on ESTjs I am not accusing you of that, it is perfectly normal

[Kim]

You are missing my point. It is not your personal opinion about ESTjs that bothers me, but rather you saying: This is how ESTjs are. Sadly, people will jump on it and nod vigorously (usually this happens when people talk about ESFps or their ESFj mothers, most of whom are not really ESFj). And ok, I will admit that I filter my interaction with and observations of people through NeFi, which is not quite so eager to categorize.

And in general I am stating that we need to move away from taking personal observations as truth. Especially when none of it is in any of the type descriptions. But that is not directed at you specifically.

[Grek0]

I am afraid it is you who has missed my point. That whatever claims I make here are my subjective opinion, and that alone, is something that I stress in pretty much every post I make. Yet people keep coming back, playing the same tape: "generalisations are bad. Not everything/all are as you say". They are repeating the obvious, OF COURSE things and people are not necessarily the way I say they are. I would be mad to claim the opposite. Just because an opinion is based on and supported by, personal experience and observation doesn;t mean it demands to be accepted as a dogma or a truth. I wish people stopped hiding behind such psalms and realised that the only way in which we can improve our understanding of something and get closer to objectivity is by discussing and arguing over subjective opinions.

As for the danger of other people perceiving my opinions as objective truth, all I can say is that I can;t possibly bear responsibility for other people's idiocy..

[Kim]

The problem is that some people ARE seeing it as truth. But that might not be your problem. Now go and find yourself an intellectually deep ESTj!

[Joy]

I was in a course that had an ENTj trainer/teacher and I had the opportunity to watch him and his interactions with people for several days.

ENTj is above all a very positive person. They give the impression of someone who is a bit spaced out and always in a good mood and telling funny stuff and not dangerous in the least. They have some problems with details and often give the impression that they are kind of careless in everything they do and say. They talk a lot and quite spontaneously. Their brain works quickly but sometimes the details of what they say are a bit out of place. If someone points this out they really don't pay much attention but focus more on the "bottom line".

When challenged ENTj will quickly turn into a bulldozer though. They never back down on a challenge and their positive and upbeat character suddenly turns into a powerful, crushing juggernaut. However this quickly fades away and they go back into their spaced out and positive form.

Sometimes they initiate this "bulldozer mode" themselves if they think other people deserve it. They will challenge people for their words often in front of an audience. Their meaning is rarely if ever to "offend" someone on purpose but often other people (especially Fe-types) get offended for being "ridiculed" and not "respected" in front of other people.

So most often you will see a somewhat bubbly, chatty, very positive, careless, spaced out ENTj with a "you can do it!" attitude. Occasionally you will see a bulldozer but in case of a healthy ENTj it is quite rare.

ESTps are less bubbly, more serious, more negative, more "concentrated" or "focused". ESTps also have way more insecurities regarding other people and are more concerned about how one "should behave" in a social situations.

Ok this is based on a small amount of material but...

That does sound like one ENTj I know. Could anyone compare that to an ESTj?

My answer to this particular question is that most of what's there could apply to an ESTj as well as an ENTj, but I think that ESTjs can get more focused on their immediate task at hand than ENTjs, who are more likely to multi-task... which could include talking while they work. Also, the subjects ENTjs talk about are more likely to seem sort of random to people around them. ENTjs are pretty much always thinking about the past or the future, even if at the same time as the task at hand, so the stuff that comes out of their mouths often relates less directly to their present physical surroundings or the task at hand than the stuff ESTjs talk about. These are pretty broad generalization though. So, beyond that...


[hr:c4694b3837]

ESTjs work hard, play hard. They spend a lot of time working, and they usually work with their hands. Professional (as opposed to skilled worker or laborer) ESTjs are more likely to be surgeons, etc. than do something that isn't directly related to the present, physical world. Thomas Edison, a brilliant ESTj, worked with his hands inventing things. ESTjs tend to be classic workaholics, taking over time and side jobs. Once they're done working though, they either relax or play. They don't feel like they should be working when they're done for the day. They know they work a lot, and work hard. Their recreational time is spent partying, playing some sort of sport, attending sports games, hiking, or just genuinely relaxing.

ENTjs work hard, crash hard. They spend a lot of time working. They may or may not work with their hands, it depends on what their long term goals are. When they try to relax, they often feel restless. Their pet project is on their mind, or the things that they know need to get done haunt them. It difficult for them to just totally unwind and enjoy relaxation. Because of this restlessness, it is common for them to push themselves until they burn out. Once they recover, they go right back to working towards their goals.

[hr:c4694b3837]

ESTjs are very much into their "toys", often things like jet skis, motorcycles, ATVs, campers, tools, classic cars, etc.

ENTjs are very much into their gadgets, often things like computers, GPSs, etc.

[hr:c4694b3837]

ESTjs think, "Why pay someone to do it when you can do it yourself, and you can do it better?" ESTjs are prone to change their own oil, and possibly even do their own auto repairs. They'll roof their own houses (often with friends, and they help their friends roof their houses, too), paint their houses, etc. They often do these things for others as well, sometimes as a favor, sometimes as a side job. An ESTj who can easily afford to have others do this type of thing for them sometimes still do it themselves, because they are perfectionists and rather enjoy that type of thing anyways.

ENTjs think, "Why do it yourself when you can pay someone else to do it, and they can do it better?" While an ENTj may know how to change their oil and do their own home improvements and repairs, if they can afford to pay someone else to do it for them, they will. If not, they'll do it themselves, but they may put it off as long as they know they can get away with it. ENTjs place a high value on their time, and they often see learning how to do something properly and then actually doing it as not being worth the time and effort when they could just pay a someone who does that for a living to take care of it.

[hr:c4694b3837]

ESTjs believe that with financial security comes freedom. ESTjs are more likely to be interested in investments that they perceive as being safe. They are comfortable investing in their education, whole life insurance policies, their homes, CDs, savings accounts, mutual funds, or loyalty to a company (which earns them a pension or other retirement benefits). The important thing is to make sure that their families will always live comfortably. An ESTj entrepreneur will work his ass off to make sure that his company succeeds and that if business slows down his family will still be comfortable.

ENTjs believe that with financial freedom comes security. ENTjs are more likely to be interested in investments that many would see as risky. ENTjs find risk somewhat exciting and perhaps even enjoyable, but it's because they are wise when it comes to managing risk. They manage risk through doing their homework and well thought out long term planning. They do not mind maintaining a lower standard of living for the sake of reaching their goals, and they do not worry too much about how their standard of living may be affected if (or when) something goes wrong. They know that ups and downs are inevitable when you're building businesses and putting money into high risk, high reward investments. They plan for market cycles in their businesses and investments, and see "don't lose money" as an unwise investment strategy.

[hr:c4694b3837]

ESTjs want to take care of their partners. They want to take care of things for their partners, whether it's small like carrying something for them or getting them something to drink, or a large project.

ENTjs want to challenge their partners. And even more so, they want their partners to challenge them. While they want to make sure that their partners are taken care of, they're more likely to do it by planning for their long term financial success than actually physically doing stuff for them.

[hr:c4694b3837]

ESTjs focus on working hard day to day, knowing that doing so will make them prosperous in the long term. Most financially successful ESTjs generally got where they are through long term diligence. They worked hard day to day.

ENTjs focus on long term prosperity, and they spend their days working hard to accomplish their long term goals. ENTjs aren't happy unless they have long term goals to work towards, and have difficulty working hard day to day if they don't have a vision of the future to keep them going.

[hr:c4694b3837]

ESTjs make regular purchases related to Si. They budget clothes, high quality food, going out, an attractive home/car, vacations, and other things related to Si into their spending.

ENTjs make sporadic purchases related to Si. They generally don't think much about Si stuff, but if a Si urge hits them, they aren't good denying themselves, even if it means disregarding their budget. Although ENTjs are good at long term or large scope financial planning and business management, they aren't always the best at micromanaging their spending.

[hr:c4694b3837]

ESTjs generally talk about what's going on right now. As in, today or this week, maybe this month. They get sort of impatient with people who talk mostly about the long term future or far out goals.

ENTjs love talking about the future and their future plans. They get sort of bored with people who only want to talk about what's going on in the present.



I may add more later, or revise what I have. I realize that these are very stereotypical views of these types, but this is a typology theory. Deal with it.

[FDG]

You make it sound like ENTjs don't play. Take a look at this, which applies to most ENTjs I know:

Man portrait

In the youth THE JACK of practically always thin and mobile. Is frequently beautiful and coquettish, always obayatelen, it is resourceful, ingenious and mysterious. Does not make problem of the clothing: it prefers sweater and jeans of calm tones. And having only become older and dostignuv dignity begin to bear official suits and galstuki. It cuts hair only briefly so that with them there would be less than the fuss.

JACK usually does not stand on the spot, it is carried past you, without managing to be greeted, that also is not surprising with such high speeds. In this situation you succeed themselves in noting only its elongated forward nose and slightly protruded ears.

In spite of entire their mobility, in the matters JACKS demonstrate themselves as the very assembled people. Already in the childhood it is noticeable that they capable, rapidly grip the explanations of teacher and, as a rule, they learn well. They love to be occupied by sport, moreover the extreme forms, where are necessary not so much rough force, as good reaction, prefer. Their speed literally casts a spell. So that to jump from the helicopter to the snow-covered slope and to make high-speed descent on skis - this completely in their style. They greatly love to feel adrenaline in the blood.

But here in the ordinary, daily life JACKS are badly coordinated - houses can sometimes bad to be entered in the door aperture yes even to fly to spread against the door post. Poor coordination is supplemented in them also with absent-mindedness. They can think about the work and pass necessary stoppage or they will forget to turn off washing machine and they will flood neighbors.

THE JACKS it is many friends and the familiar have. They merry and sociable, love to laugh, so that in the company it is simply irreplaceable. They can for the duration of entire evening very successfully cheer people by their rapid, mocking observations.

To girl it is not necessary to think about how to be introduced to THE JACK. It itself will trouble about this. First, it has the remarkable ability to see all and all all around, so that is worth you appear somewhere next, it will immediately note you. But in the second place, for it nothing it is worthwhile to appear initiative (that it, strictly, always and makes) - well, here you already are familiar!

Further also it is possible not to be strained, because if bright JACK selected you, it anywhere will not disappear, will itself periodically ring and arrive. But it is here that to it it would be pleasant with you, it is necessary to care for you, because TO JACK as air they are necessary your decency, faithfulness and good relation.

Never mind, if at times you it is seem that it is somewhat brinied up poorly. In the contact with the people it and actually is clumsy, first it will be rude, then it will offend to anything. Sometimes JACK is inclined to fall into the depressions. This means that he does not have present, grow prettier the work, on which it would be in the state to maximally realize itself. But that to make, in all their deficiencies, then in it exist many other good properties.

It is still necessary to know that it not of those, who solve complex problems with the aid of the cams. This is sufficiently soft, even a little irresolute man, who avoids power sshibok.

From the life: "once we went with the husband to rest, was removed room on the first floor. And here once I hear among the night, which someone climbs to us through the window. I frightened, it began it to wake. When for me finally it was possible to push asunder him and to explain to it which occurs, it was wrapped up to the window and politely it asked: "You prostite, if you please, and which to you is here must?"

As the husband THE JACK is little it is concerned by way of life. To it it is not interesting to think that your domestic nest would become comfortable and comfortable. It also will not begin to give much attention to food and to worry about its health (and your) health. It will be better, if you free it from all concerns of this type.

Dad of this type is friends with the children, preferring starshen'kikh, with whom to it it is much more interesting. As far as low-order are concerned, their presence in the house is always accompanied by some physiological problems - wet pampersami, gases, eructation, but this does not please itself JACK. So that better also take upon itself health and hygiene procedures, assigning it on the care of breast children as less as possible or only in the pressing cases. It can be, this is not very convenient... That zh, be comforted by the fact that it is gay with it! But also fact that it will always devise, as to earn is many money.

On the work THE JACK literally "burns". It entire in the matters, entire in the motion. If it stops, you will see, that he has the scattered view, which periodically wanders on the walls and the ceiling. Your face, correspondingly, only rarely falls in the field the sight OF JACK. Yes even in fact, when to it to look on you? To it to work necessary! But it simply does not know how to work, but still and it loves! Indeed precisely JACKS they most frequently call trudogolikami.

Those JACKS, which are gifted not only with mind, but also with organizational talent, prefer the stable work, where they, as a rule, reach very major positions, become directors and owners of enterprises. Other JACKS, in which more greatly is inherent hunting research ardor, are attempted to work in konsaltinge or as the crisis managers, where they also reach excellent successes.

Without the work THE JACK turns sour, it is begun boringly to live. But to visualize that a man of this type somehow so suddenly remained without the work, is possible only theoretically. The fact is that JACK usually departs from the firm already for several months before troubles there begin, moreover to the larger payment. It never will remain uncalled-for: with its abilities and connections it always has the large selection of the places, where it can realize its practical talent and improbable diligence.

Difficulties with THE JACK (both the houses and on the work) begin when the assaults of formalism find to it. But such is usually in such a case, when something goes not then. Its dissatisfaction and vorchaniye testifies about the internal stress. At that time and begin all possible cavils of the type "4 I do not understand, that you me tell" or "you will first explain to me, with what to stati we must enter precisely so" or even "formulate the same more correctly".

In such minutes you hardly will succeed themselves in finding with THE JACK common language try to retune it, make so that it would feel, as it is good, in reality, you to it relate. After it will be quieted, after some time it will be possible to continue rotting, this time with the great success.

That's like, the perfect description of myself.

[UDP]

Where did you get that, FDG? That seems like a great profile, I would want to look at ones for other types.


PS: http://forum.socionix.com

[Ezra]

That's interesting, Joy. I generally relate to LSE more, with a few exceptions:

1. The gadgets bit. More into my gadgets.
2. The long-term prosperity - definitely more me than LSE's take on it.
3. Challenging partners. I would do this more than taking care.

[UDP]

Men of this type rarely are jealous. Usually they be proud by their friends and are are completely contented, if their woman pleases herself not only by them, but also by others.

No chance. http://forum.socionix.com/index.php?showtopic=131

That likely has something to do with Fe acceptance, and not infidelity, but still, I am not known for being unjealous.

[Joy]

That's like, the perfect description of myself.

And I imagine Ashton would say the same.

Who wrote that description, btw? There's nothing in it that I blatantly disagree with, but the feel of it is off. It's like it was written from a perspective outside of Gamma quadra values.

If it stops, you will see, that he has the scattered view, which periodically wanders on the walls and the ceiling. Your face, correspondingly, only rarely falls in the field the sight OF JACK.

weird...

Does anyone have any comments on this part of the description?

[olduser]

the entj guy i play music with never stops doing things. It is Work hard, crash hard. Works 12 hours a day and spends the rest of his time writing music, walking around town, getting free food, intensively reading, doing whatever. He's a very upbeat guy, but incredibly self-centered. I have a lot of patience for him that my other friends lack. When we play music he tends to go into thourough detail about the music and how he wrote it, what he was thinking when he wrote it, the structure, the lyrics(their meaning, etc etc)-- basically the facts of the music. I really don't mind because i'm made of patience. but i lack his day to day energy-- everytime we practice he is in full work mode. Intense and on point each song. Whereas I am exhausted from 8 hours high intensity work and a rigorous excercise program. I've had to reschedule our practices for the timebeing to my days off because my quickly waning enthusiasm for the project. I really need to rest. but i still need to buy things, and make a nice dinner.

[Ezra]

Yeah, LIEs are the epitomes of 6s. I swear. It's indisputable.

[FDG]

That's like, the perfect description of myself.

And I imagine Ashton would say the same.

Who wrote that description, btw? There's nothing in it that I blatantly disagree with, but the feel of it is off. It's like it was written from a perspective outside of Gamma quadra values.

If it stops, you will see, that he has the scattered view, which periodically wanders on the walls and the ceiling. Your face, correspondingly, only rarely falls in the field the sight OF JACK.

weird...

Does anyone have any comments on this part of the description?

It was written by russians, nothing to do with socionix. Anyway, if you remember, XoX has said that he noticed the same thing about an ENTj he knows.

I think the fact that it's written from an objective standpoint makes it good. It seems to be a very positive description to me.

[eunice]

@ Joy: Are those common traits of ESTj? If so, they are too good for me.

[UDP]

Joy's comparison seems somewhat lopsided towards ENTj being superior or better, but that is understandable.


I would never buy a huge boat or a bunch of cars or toys - both ESTjs I know very well are not that way at all - it is impractical. They buy sporting goods, and one has a large collection of novels - star trek movies and other things, too. Do you see Hank Hill splurging on a bunch of toys?

[eunice]

Joy's comparison seems somewhat lopsided towards ENTj being superior or better, but that is understandable.


I would never buy a huge boat or a bunch of cars or toys - both ESTjs I know very well are not that way at all - it is impractical. They buy sporting goods, and one has a large collection of novels - star trek movies and other things, too. Do you see Hank Hill splurging on a bunch of toys?

Really? I thought Joy's comparion seems to put ESTj in a more positive light.

[UDP]

How so? Please explain your thoughts.

[eunice]

How so? Please explain your thoughts.

ESTjs seem to be more well-rounded and good at everything. I even thought that there's no reason or motivation for them to get married because they don't seem to need anyone's help.

[Gilly]

It was written by russians, nothing to do with socionix. Anyway, if you remember, XoX has said that he noticed the same thing about an ENTj he knows.

I think the fact that it's written from an objective standpoint makes it good. It seems to be a very positive description to me.

Where did you get it? Website? I want to read others like this.

[Expat]

I agree with what Joy said, like over 90%. Not quite everything, though. I don't think ENTjs are particularly into gadgets.

And, eunice, ESTj's need INFj's love, creativity, understanding of people, and the sense that they (ESTjs) are doing the right thing.

[Joy]

It was written by russians, nothing to do with socionix. Anyway, if you remember, XoX has said that he noticed the same thing about an ENTj he knows.

Are you talking about the thing with the eyes?

Joy's comparison seems somewhat lopsided towards ENTj being superior or better, but that is understandable.


I would never buy a huge boat or a bunch of cars or toys - both ESTjs I know very well are not that way at all - it is impractical. They buy sporting goods, and one has a large collection of novels - star trek movies and other things, too.

Star Trek? Are you sure he's ESTj?

Seriously though, I've never known an ESTj who didn't buy toys. The types of toys vary, but they have all owned at least semi-expensive recreational or fun items. For one it was a snow mobile, for a few others tools (which they probably used enough to make them worth the expense, so I guess that's not really a "toy" then), for another a huge ass grill.

Do you see Hank Hill splurging on a bunch of toys?

I don't know... I haven't seen the show enough to say. I don't think TV characters are good representations of types though, generally speaking. And I wouldn't call what ESTjs do "splurging"... recreation and items related to recreation are just part of their living expenses. And they can afford them because they work their asses off.

Teenage ESTjs seem to get really into sports and/or cars. (Drugs for some, but I'm not attributing that to type... there's druggies of all types.) They also tend to do manual labor in the summer or weekends, like helping their dad or uncle do home repair or renovation projects, etc.

Again, I know not all ESTjs are gear heads. There are some that are inventors and surgeons and whatnot. But they still work with their hands, and have little interest in doing any type of work that doesn't produce immediate, physical results that they can see right in front of them. If an highly intelligent ESTj is interested in science, (s)he'll get into a branch of science that requires actual experimentation rather than a more theoretical field that doesn't take some sort of visible form on a daily basis.

As far as ENTjs and gadgets, I don't think most ENTjs are as into gadgets as say, most ENTps... but certainly more so than most ESTjs.

[Joy]

And, eunice, ESTj's need INFj's love, creativity, understanding of people, and the sense that they (ESTjs) are doing the right thing.

And families.

[Slacker]

The ESTjs I know have toys too, though I know them because they're friends of my husband and he's into that so it might be more about their relationship to my husband than any love of toys. Also, the description seems to assume that the ESTjs are male - at least the types of toys are those generally more favored by guys. I'd like to see some description of an ESTj woman. Hmmm I was trying to think if the ESTj guy next door has toys like that and I'm not sure.

My mom is ENTj and is HUGELY into gadgets. Especially kitchen gadgets. LOL. She only likes to cook if she has an excuse to play with gadgets. Not all ENTjs I've known are into gadgets though. What would be the functional reason for the interest in gadgets? It could be that a particular function causes some ENTjs to be into gadgets but other ENTjs would use that function (or grouping of functions) differently.

[Gilly]

A lot of XoX's description sounds like me, heh.

[UDP]

I agree with what Joy said, like over 90%. Not quite everything, though. I don't think ENTjs are particularly into gadgets.

And, eunice, ESTj's need INFj's love, creativity, understanding of people, and the sense that they (ESTjs) are doing the right thing.

Also, INFjs are so easy to get along with - no drama, no additional stress. A very soothing partner, one who appreciates quality as well.

I can agree that it seems like the ESTj has no natural 'weaknesses', but that is only from a distance. LSE's appreciate moral input from someone who LIVES the qualities they believe in. Not all INFjs, but most healthy ones, seem to have an extraordinary character - and that is both appealing and relaxing; trust.

From an LSE's point of view, they want to make something 'beautiful' in regard to their relationship. Their psychological mindset is pre-wired for an INFj's idealism, loyalty, sincerity, and so on. And, especially what I have been noticing lately -- when you really look around at other people, and you are looking for relationship prospects - how many people really seem like they would be able to make a relationship work? Having spent time with INFjs, their calmness and consistency are very appealing, especially in comparison to most people, or after a long day of chaotic interactions.

EIIs are stress-free. It takes no work (for me) to get along with them, and they seem to enjoy what you naturally feel like you have to do. They are also the most receptive to your take on beauty, and are always there to add a good moral/global stance on everything. An LSE will always be a bit of a romantic:

Introverted Feeling Block OF SUPERID*SHCH-YA pozitsiya*Suggestivnaya function * the "ethics of relations"
To construct its personal interrelations to representatives of this type is very difficult. Subconsiously they are oriented to the system of the ethical values of Dostoyevsky. Therefore their personal system of interrelations bears a somewhat idealistic nature. With whom not they constructed their interrelations, they assume the presence in their partner of such qualities as pliability, delicacy, punctiliousness, decency, sincerity, i.e., all those qualities, which are characteristic of the ethical program of Dostoyevsky.

It is natural that genuine reality constantly disappoints Shtirlitsev. Therefore, analyzing the previous sad experience, they are very careful in the formation of new relations. Very not easily they converge with the people, they try not to tie their society, about itself, about their personal life they say very little and it is very unwilling.

Very reserved - it is possible to work with this person side by side several years and about it not to almost anything know. In the contact they hold distant distance.

so basically, they are looking for a relationship of high quality, and seeing not many people who want the same thing they do, they are generally very reserved, and only seek to further relations with people who have the INFj's take on ethics. Until they are convinced of someone being that way, they will just stay at a distance and be professional. The EII offers someone who shows a great promise of relationships success, and general qualities the LSE wants to be around.

[Joy]

Most if not all of that applies as much to ENTj/ISFj relations as it does to ESTj/INFj relations.

[Khamelion]

She made the ENTj sound me neurotic actually. It seems to be a matter of your quadra values if you like on of the other. I personly like that fun-flow of the ESTj, but I'd probably be more comfortable with the ENTj's Ni.

[Expat]

My mom is ENTj and is HUGELY into gadgets. Especially kitchen gadgets. LOL. She only likes to cook if she has an excuse to play with gadgets. Not all ENTjs I've known are into gadgets though. What would be the functional reason for the interest in gadgets? It could be that a particular function causes some ENTjs to be into gadgets but other ENTjs would use that function (or grouping of functions) differently.

I tend to think it's a typical ENTp characteristic, and it makes sense to me to see it as a result of and . But it depends on what we're talking about. My ENTp brother - but this may be skewing my perception - is the typical gadget freak in the sense that he'll try to get whatever the latest one is. He usually has cameras, cellphones, etc, far more expensive and complicated than he actually needs. If a new model of something like that is released, he immediately thinks of buying it. I normally have the simplest and cheapest versions that will just do the job and be reliable, and keep them for years.

But, since and are what I suggest could be called the "hobby" functions of ENTjs, perhaps it's really a case for individual preference.

[Joy]

That's a good point. I've known people who spend WAY more than is practical (imo) on gadgets. I just meant that ENTjs are more likely than ESTjs to look to technology to take their lives easier. Generally nothing that costs more than the value it provides though.

[Joy]

An example would be a GPS... I think an ENTj would be more comfortable depending on a GPS and not even having maps in his/her car than an ESTj, who would buy something like that for other reasons (a lot of nicer cars come with it, or spouse wants it, etc.). An ENTj would want it for the convenience and feel very comfortable using it, compared to the ESTj who may get frustrated with it if it's not working properly and not trust it, seeing it as more of a toy than a tool.

[Slacker]

LOL my mom has a GPS.

[Joy]

They're fucking awesome! Do you have any idea how much time and hassle they save you? And if you're driving and feel like chinese all of a sudden, you can just look up the closest chinese restaurants (or office supply stores, pet stores, whatever), get off at the exit, and it'll tell you how to get back on course. Being a home inspector means I'm driving to all kinds of unfamiliar places all the time, and the convenience of having directions that adjust for detours and whatnot is priceless (after all, there are two seasons in Wisconsin... snow and construction). I don't need an $800 GPS though.

[FDG]

An example would be a GPS... I think an ENTj would be more comfortable depending on a GPS and not even having maps in his/her car than an ESTj, who would buy something like that for other reasons (a lot of nicer cars come with it, or spouse wants it, etc.). An ENTj would want it for the convenience and feel very comfortable using it, compared to the ESTj who may get frustrated with it if it's not working properly and not trust it, seeing it as more of a toy than a tool.

Mmmhh. I know an ISTp that has a GPS.

[Joy]

Yeah, it's going to depend on the individual to some extent obviously, probably more so than some of the other descriptions of differences.

Here's another. Expat (and Nicky) can correct me on this one if I'm wrong.


ESTjs are likely to ask friends for help when doing big projects. They can do this (and feel comfortable doing it) because they do or would help their friends with stuff like that, too. It's just give and take.

ENTjs feel a bit uncomfortable accepting that kind of favor and are more likely to be irritated if asked for that kind of favor. If they can afford to hire someone else to do it, they'd generally rather do that than ask a friend who knows how to do it (depending on their relationship with that friend, of course). If they don't really know how to do it, have a friend who does, and can't afford to hire someone, they're more likely to do it themselves and then call their friend with questions if they run into any (depending on the task, of course.) If they have two friends that would do it, and one would accept payment and the other wouldn't, their natural reaction would be to call up the one who will take money. They'd rather do a business transaction than accept a big favor (one requiring a lot of effort). They would rather buy a service than simply get taken care of. And they don't want to feel obligated to do stuff in return down the road, and would consider this even if they know that their friend won't ask for anything in return.

[Slacker]

As I said in Delta ( ) I think it's the norm for Deltas to help each other with projects. Like if my husband has a car he's working on, I know absolutely his three best friends (ESTj, ENFp, and INFj - I kid you not) will all stop by to work on it with him. Every single time. And if one of those three friends has a project, he will *always* run out to help them. It's like we're a community and within our community we help each other to whatever level we can. So, say the ENFp has his son that weekend and my husband is working on a project, he'll bring his son and he knows I'll watch the son while he helps because that's how I contribute. But we all know the rest of us will contribute without having to ask. And this kind of thing makes my ENTj mom uncomfortable. She'll say that they shouldn't assume I'll babysit. But, again, we look at our circle of friends as being a community and we help each other when we can.

[Creepy-bg]

As I said in Delta ( ) I think it's the norm for Deltas to help each other with projects. Like if my husband has a car he's working on, I know absolutely his three best friends (ESTj, ENFp, and INFj - I kid you not) will all stop by to work on it with him. Every single time. And if one of those three friends has a project, he will *always* run out to help them. It's like we're a community and within our community we help each other to whatever level we can. So, say the ENFp has his son that weekend and my husband is working on a project, he'll bring his son and he knows I'll watch the son while he helps because that's how I contribute. But we all know the rest of us will contribute without having to ask. And this kind of thing makes my ENTj mom uncomfortable. She'll say that they shouldn't assume I'll babysit. But, again, we look at our circle of friends as being a community and we help each other when we can.

I get warm fuzzies reading this... it must be wonderfull

[eunice]

As I said in Delta ( ) I think it's the norm for Deltas to help each other with projects. Like if my husband has a car he's working on, I know absolutely his three best friends (ESTj, ENFp, and INFj - I kid you not) will all stop by to work on it with him. Every single time. And if one of those three friends has a project, he will *always* run out to help them. It's like we're a community and within our community we help each other to whatever level we can. So, say the ENFp has his son that weekend and my husband is working on a project, he'll bring his son and he knows I'll watch the son while he helps because that's how I contribute. But we all know the rest of us will contribute without having to ask. And this kind of thing makes my ENTj mom uncomfortable. She'll say that they shouldn't assume I'll babysit. But, again, we look at our circle of friends as being a community and we help each other when we can.

I get warm fuzzies reading this... it must be wonderfull

I wonder how it will be liked for me if all my best friends belong to the same quadra.

Another difference I have noticed between ESTj and ENTj is the way they make decisions that affect not only themselves but the people around them. An ESTj tends to make decisions for everyone without discussing it with them, whereas an ENTj is more likely to consult everyone before coming to a concensus that the others agree with.

[Expat]

Joy's post makes sense regarding ENTjs in my experience. I do believe it also makes sense for ESTjs, but I have less direct observation of that.

[UDP]

Who likes meetings more?

I had a meeting yesterday that was only supposed to be about 30 minutes, but we ended up talking for over an hour. This was ok because it was extremely important and neither of us had major commitments. But I really got energized during the meeting, and we spoke about every facet of the organization for the upcoming year. It was with the president.

Perhaps ENTjs like Joy and Expat could describe for me their take on meetings and how they think about them, and how they would approach them differently from an ESTj.

I like planning things, and talking about what needs to be done a great deal - I enjoy the doing as well, of course..

[Expat]

Who likes meetings more?

It will sound like a cop-out or lame answer but for me it totally depends on the context of the meeting and who is there - if you mean professional or academic meetings.