Possible indication of the split between INVERSE types

[Angel von Himmel]

A conversation me and Rocky started ...

I did!

http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...59523d6895f834

And my Dad is INTP and did the things you described above. That's really not uncommon for an INTP. INTPs and ENTPs are only one letter apart and superficially an INTP looks like an ENTP and vice versa.

Actually, I disagree. From a functional level INTp and ENTp are very very different. IMO It just does not do justice to say that there is just a letters difference between them when there is so much emphasis placed on different inverse functions. I would much sooner see an INTp become an ENTj than an ENTp ... it just does not make sense to me that an INTp and an ENTp would see things functionally the same way.

... b/c ENTPs and INTPs are both dominanted by Intuition and you can see it as their "primary" function (either you know it or feel it on a gut level). One just happens to have a concious Ne and subconcious Ni while the other is reversed. Types CAN seem like their mirrors if they are heavy on their creative function, but your contrast is still your most similar type (at least superfically). Sometimes it is hard to tell which is the concious and subconcious with people and the xNTPs have a similar structure.

By that I mean,
dominant "N"
creative "T"
need for "S"
and a weak point of "F"

Ohh, well if that was what you were saying, then I do not disagree ... I do think though still that there are some marked differences between ENTp and INTp, and part of the reasoning I have for that you had already stated with types possibly mirroring with their creative function.

If types can do similar things as their inverse equivalent, and not share those similar things with another type; than it only makes sense to me that the same types can share traits with their mirror equivalents, but at the same time they do not share those traits with their inverse equivalent.

What I am proposing!

If types can do similar things as their inverse equivalent, and not share those similar things with other types; than it only makes sense that the same types can share traits with their mirror equivalents, but at the same time they do not share those traits with their inverse equivalent.

Has this been said before?

[Angel von Himmel]

Perhaps this was not by any chance how they first started to came up with subtypes?

[MysticSonic]

ENTjs are far more similar to INTps than ENTps are. The relationships aren't called relationships of CONTRAST for nothing.

[Angel von Himmel]

ENTjs are far more similar to INTps than ENTps are. The relationships aren't called relationships of CONTRAST for nothing.

That was what I thought ... while I was speaking to Rocky in the other thread, he seemed to have the impression that INTps and ENTps were more similar to each other than ENTps are to INTjs and INTps are to ENTjs ... Something just did not seem right logically with what he was trying to say.

Unless of course I misunderstood Rocky, which could be the case. I do not really consider myself an expert on socionics, but I can gauge when something just does not feel right in an intuitive sense.

[Rocky]

What I was saying is that it is easy to confuse Contrasts if you are an outside obsever because they have the same functions and the same structure. The only diffrence between Contrasts is that one's consious functions are the other's subconsious functions, and you can't always tell which is which and is why an INTP and an ENTP can be confused.

[MysticSonic]

I never get confused, it seems to be one of the more obvious differences to me.

[Angel von Himmel]

I agree with MysticSonic, I do not have a problem getting them confused, either.

One of the biggest tipoff I think for typing myself ENTp is that I can relate really really well with INTjs, far better than I do ENTjs or INTps ... There is just this odd diffrence and dissemilarity between me and INTps/ENTjs that just does not make me feel that I could really ever be typed as either one of them. I just do not relate to them as well as I do to INTjs ...

[Rocky]

I never get confused, it seems to be one of the more obvious differences to me.

Oh, come on now Mystic, you think Han Solo is an ESTP. :wink:

Really, how can you be sure that you are not getting confused? Contrasts can often give off similar "vibes". Some ISTPs may be blatant ISTPs and some may seem ESTP. This happens when the consious and subconsious functions get confused to an outside observer. The person themself would always be able to tell the diffrence, but it might be harder for someone else to. I want to get back to Han Solo . Maybe you get an ESTP "vibe" from him but it is not true. The reason is that his PoLR is Fe, not Fi. You can tell by the way he reacts to people, by the way he treats Leia and the way he wants to do things by himself. There was a reason he was given the name "Solo". Remember when Han Solo didn't want to fight the Death Star because he wanted to live, then comes back anyway to help protect Luke and still gives Luke credit? That's ISTP. ESTPs often become braggers and showboaters. Also the violent outbursts are ISTP (this comes from the PoLR of Fe again). Han Solo was the stong independant type, and that's stereotypical ISTP!

I also disagreed with you on Einstein. You said you got an ENTP vibe from him, yet I still think he is an INTP. The reason I can be so sure is that my Dad is an INTP and I live with it and see the diffrence. It is quite possible you would think my Dad is an ENTP if you met him, but he's not. All the behaviour that McNew mentioned that he thought was more ENTP because it was similar to him is actually what my Dad did as well in college.

Why is it so hard to believe that Contrasts can be similar? Like I said, the only diffrence between them is concious/subconcious.

[Angel von Himmel]

This may be besides the point, but I think Harrison Ford is actually an ISTp in real life.

He tends to play alot of characters that seem to have extroverted tendencies. I would just as soon say that Indiana Jones is an ENTp, as I would say that Han Solo is an ESTp ... But, I would not try to type him that way in real life, especially if I really knew him well.

[Rocky]

Dmitri typed Harrison Ford as an ISTP and I agree. My point was that he also plays an ISTP character in Star Wars (and yeah, Indiana Jones= ENTP). Plus that Einstein is actually INTP himself!

[Angel von Himmel]

I think I will do more research into Einstein ... I still am not totally convinced he is INTp. It is possible, though.

[Creepy-an ixtp (probably istp)]

I never thought myself similar to ESTp nor ENTp or appearing like them. I have some characteristics of them, but still there's a decisive differ.

I don't care so much about far and big goals, so I may not be ESTp. I think I'm too lazy and bad at raising others to be a good leader, so I may not be ENTp. I'm rather a vision killer on a fantastic, far-aiming project.
Can you consider I'm actually one of them in spite of the above? Or have you ever got any EXTp vibe from me? If so, what makes you think like that with the above?

[MysticSonic]

1. Perhaps I overstated that fact; of the contrary relations that I am familiar with, which are comprised of the intuitive ones, I see no trouble in dinstinguishing between the two types involved in sucha relationship.

2. You're not convincing me Einstein's an INTp.

3. From how you've described him, I would say your father's an INTp.

4. Han Solo's relationship with Leia Organa clearly depicts a mirror relationship, in which it is between the rebellious sensoric thinkers of the beta quadra.

5. Han Solo wasn't a "strong independant" type; he was a quick-talker with his constant companion Chewbacca by his side.

[Angel von Himmel]

By the way, I asked my mother if I acted the way that this webpage describes ENTp children when they are young, and she says that I am a posterchild for it described me exactly when I was younger. The INTp child did not describe me one bit.

http://borntoexplore.org/tempquotes.htm

Just one more bit of verification for myself and everyone else that I am ENTp ...

[MysticSonic]

Uhh, remember, the correlation between the Socionic system of introverted types is a rough one; did you even show her the INTJ(Ni,Te) profile?

[MysticSonic]

And perhaps I should be a bit more honest: I did have concerns about Leia being an ESTj, but that just doesn't fit with their desire to MAINTAIN the status quo; this is in contrast to ISTjs who either want to tear it down or move up within it.

[Creepy-detail]

What are some arguments to type Einstein INTP?

[MysticSonic]

http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=718

[Angel von Himmel]

Uhh, remember, the correlation between the Socionic system of introverted types is a rough one; did you even show her the INTJ(Ni,Te) profile?

I just had her read both the INTj and ENTp profiles at the www.socionics.com site again, and she said that while I display tendencies of both, the ENTp profile describes me better than INTj.

However, I still dress like an ENFj ...

[Angel von Himmel]

I also just read this page on einstein ... I see how it could be possible to argue either INTp or ENTp ... he seemed to have displayed the slowness and thoughtfullness of an INTp when younger, but in school he behaved independantly and rebelliously like an ENTp ....

I acted the same way in school, weird ...

http://www.aip.org/history/einstein/early1.htm

[Creepy-an ixtp (probably istp)]

What are some arguments to type Einstein INTP?

http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=718

Here are past topics before the poll.
http://oldforumlinkviewtopic.php?t=5...light=einstein
http://oldforumlinkviewtopic.php?t=6...light=einstein

Be careful, celebrity typing is a can of worms...:wink:

[Transigent]

Edited for gayness.

[Angel von Himmel]

By the way, I asked my mother if I acted the way that this webpage describes ENTp children when they are young, and she says that I am a posterchild for it described me exactly when I was younger. The INTp child did not describe me one bit.

http://borntoexplore.org/tempquotes.htm

Just one more bit of verification for myself and everyone else that I am ENTp ...

WOW!

Look! MBTI has discovered the socionics hidden agenda!!!!

ENFp They are so driven by their natural curiosity that they ask more questions than children of other types...

INFp INFPs may also be challenging because they ask so many "why" questions and are naturally drawn to alternative paths of discovery.

Funny huh?

Note: if ANYBODY says something about the tired old J/P MBTI-socionics switch (which does NOT apply to anything non-functional analysis of MBTI).....I will FIND you, and do something bad.

Actually, I am not sure if that is MBTI theory or not, that might have just been a careful and accurate observation of the author of the "ADD and children" book the website seems to be advertising for.

[Transigent]

Edited for gayness.

[Rocky]

4. Han Solo's relationship with Leia Organa clearly depicts a mirror relationship, in which it is between the rebellious sensoric thinkers of the beta quadra.

5. Han Solo wasn't a "strong independant" type; he was a quick-talker with his constant companion Chewbacca by his side.

I'm not even going to get into Leia, it would be too hard to type them through relationships. They could have a Quasi-Identical relationship though.

As for Han Solo... ISTPs aren't COMPLETE loners. Some ISTPs are actually sociable. You descibe Chewy as a "constant companion", don't you think that's the way an ISTP would have it? He didn't even enjoy the other people coming along at first. I'll give another example of Han Solo's Fi hidden agenda besides the DeathStar scene. Remember when Han Solo is frozen after being betrayed by Lando? Leia finally tells Solo "I love you" but he doesn't say the same thing back. He just responds with "I know" with a serious face. That's what ISTPs do; they naturally push away a little when people get to close and don't show much emotion. An ESTP would tell you he loves you if you just sit next to him on the bus. lol.

And perhaps I should be a bit more honest: I did have concerns about Leia being an ESTj, but that just doesn't fit with their desire to MAINTAIN the status quo; this is in contrast to ISTjs who either want to tear it down or move up within it.

Do I seem to maintain balance?

@ an ixtp: I don't think Contrasts always look like each other, but they CAN. That's the point.

[MysticSonic]

I don't think you're an ISTp, but I'm not even going to touch that one.

And yeah, you have a point, Han Solo probably is an ISTp. Another case of me arguing a point only to then a few minutes later change my opinion on the matter. >.>

[Rocky]

What's more important is finding Einstiens' type (oh, yeah, and mine too ).

My test results...

http://socionics.wsphere.com/cgi-bin...475084150.html

I seem to be ubber-Te.

[MysticSonic]

Like I said before, you guys put too much faith in these tests. They're too easily manipulated by people with as much knowledge on the subject as us.

[Rocky]

Well, the concious part said ENTP and the functiocal part said ISTP/ESTJ. So unless I knew which questions were which then it would have been hard to manipulate them to end up that way. I at least think I have a strong Te and weak Fe after thinking about my type a LOT. Also having a strong Ni function wouldn't make sense at all, and I think I have a strong Si and Ne. That would only leave ISTP and ESTJ even if I ignored the test results.

[MysticSonic]

It's impossible for an ISTp to have a strong Ne, while it's quite possible for them to have a semi-functioning Ni function.

Of course, there's a difference between being able to do something WELL and doing something FREQUENTLY.

[Creepy-an ixtp (probably istp)]

This reminded me of the manner rmcnew and Rocky have begun to doubt they're ENTp when I was writing what I'm different from ENTp.
http://www.the16types.info/types-ENTP.php

Two birds in the bush [he often chooses this option instead of one in his hand]. He is a genius at finding new opportunities and possibilities. What he has completed always seems to him less important compared to the dawning perspectives which are irresistible an inexhaustible. Scientists of this type tend to procrastinate with the publishing of the results of their research, thinking that the greatest discoveries are still ahead. He lives for the future; meanwhile being not acknowledged does not intimidate him. He chooses to do what is interesting rather than what is lucrative.

I couldn't count this as an obvious difference, but I think most ISTps who are confident about their and can easily reject this description.

[Rocky]

Of course, there's a difference between being able to do something WELL and doing something FREQUENTLY.

Perhaps your right. I might just THINK my Ne is strong. Let me try to explain how I think Ne works in me. First of all, I don't think I have a strong Ni and it's possible I try to use Ne because I'm almost "afraid" that I will hit a wall somewhere down the road if I don't. When I'm making a decision I have to look at EVERYTHING and consider EVERYTHING. I also like to leave my options open and never like to say "Well, I'm %100 sure of...". I have criticized people for saying things are "obvious" and try to stay away from that myself; people who use the word obvious a lot are often oblivious themselves. I'm always aware that I could have possibly made a mistake and don't try to dig a hole for myself. I find new ideas intersting and always enjoy reading/discovering/hearing about new things. I also don't like repetition much and sometimes try to do something a diffrent way just to do it diffrently.

[Rocky]

Back on the subject of Einstein, I got this from the link McNew posted,

"One story Einstein liked to tell about his childhood was of a "wonder" he saw when he was four or five years old: a magnetic compass. The needle's invariable northward swing, guided by an invisible force, profoundly impressed the child. The compass convinced him that there had to be "something behind things, something deeply hidden." Even as a small boy Einstein was self-sufficient and thoughtful. According to family legend he was a slow talker at first, pausing to consider what he would say. His sister remembered the concentration and perseverance with which he would build up houses of cards to many stories."

^^ How does that not sound INTP?

[MysticSonic]

How do you hold the two notions that "pensive, thoughtful" ENTps exist, noted by the fact that you typed me as an ENTp, and then deny that Einstein can be as such?

[Rocky]

I'm starting to doubt if they do exist. I read subtype descriptions saying ENTPs could be like that, and when I thought I was ENTP that sounded like it could have been me. Now I'm starting to think that I'm actually an Introvert. With you, you definatly sounded more Alpha, so it was either INTJ or ENTP. I picked ENTP because you seem to go with more of a feel than an analytical aproach ("P"). Also, you didn't look like an INTJ to me.

In the description of Einstein it says, "something behind things, something deeply hidden." That sounds like a very Introverted way to think in addition to the thoughtful part. I also think pausing and thinking about what you are going to say is Introverted. Maybe it's possible Extraverts can learn to do this, but I'm starting to doubt it.

[MysticSonic]

Out of curiousity, what type would you consider me to be now?

[Rocky]

Now I'm somewhat stumped. Alpha+ NT+ P+ I = nothing???

Unless of course you are ENTP....

[MysticSonic]

I personally think I have a similar thought structure in comparison to Pedro's; I'm currently under the impression that I'm an intuitive sub-type INTj, "the researcher."

[Angel von Himmel]

Like I said before, you guys put too much faith in these tests. They're too easily manipulated by people with as much knowledge on the subject as us.

In a way I agree, it is useless for me to even take the test and rely on the results, because I can influence them. I know the functions to well already.

But, not everyone can do that ... I seriously doubt that someone who does not know socionics or the meanings behind every function could do a very good job at influencing the results of the test without it being obvious that was their intention.

That is part of the reason I made the test so complex, to keep people from cheating and choosing answers they know would get them a certain type. It is hard to do that with the functional analysis part without putting out an enormous effort that would take longer than just taking the test.

[MysticSonic]

My point was that Rocky can. Also, one's self-perception often causes one to answer questions not-so-honestly.