Those evil ISTjs! from ENTp's point of view (ILE-LSI supervision relations)

[Angel von Himmel]

They have generally low self-esteeme and low self-confidence, mostly resulting from their poor ability to envision future potential.

They typically lack foresight, but they sure the heck know when something has been touched or is moved out of place.

They whine and worry about alot of stupid pointless crap and alot of them are workaholics; one of their greatest fears is starving to death. An ISTj could have money out of the wazoo and he or she could still have workaholic tendencies and worry about starvation.

Many of them believe that careing about a person or close family member means to restrict his or her person freedom, steal his or her personal valuables, and tell them how things are going to be according to the way that they understand things.

Some of them [not all of them] make a daily habit of running over people and pat themselves on the back for it afterwards while telling themselves that they did good. Then they have the nerve to consider someone who is confident and expedient a jerk-off ... I never could understand that one.

When you do something they feel is out of bounds or not according to their personal logic, they like to make statement similar to "Who taught YOU how to [something]?" or similar to "YOU need to learn how to do [something]!". I find both statements just as annoying as hell.

Alot of type descriptions say they are good administrators. Taking the ISTjs I have known they tend to make pretty crappy administrators, even though most are generally responsible and make sure things are financially secure. A buisness with an ISTj boss probably would have one hell of an employee turn-over; better to find other employment quick before the axe starts heading in your direction. I sure the heck would not work very long for a boss that is ISTj ...

[Angel von Himmel]

Some other things I have noticed:

They are generally polite, and expect people to return the favor. But, for some reason the rules of politeness only seem to apply to what the ISTj thinks is polite behaviour; some tend to turn into major hypocrites and fail to follow even their own prescribed logic when they suddenly snap and become unrestrained in behaviour.[Not all of them do this!]

People tend to learn to suck up to ISTjs to just get rid of them or to keep them from becoming unrestrained. Also, most ISTjs have no problem ruining a bad persons reputation. On the other hand, if you are nice to them they tend to spread the word around to other people.

[Angel von Himmel]

I bet there's healthier ISTj's out there than the ones you described. :wink:

Well, taking that I am ENTp, you have to realize that a supervisory relationship already screws chances for a good relationship. Add in the fact that my father is ISTj and an alcoholic. And the fact that my father tries to be everyones supervisor anyways.

I am just freaking glad that my parents dicorced ... I tried living with my dad and it only took me two weeks before I found a way to move out. There is just to much personality conflict going on there.

[Angel von Himmel]

I'm assuming that you personally know these ISTj's that you're describing. Is there a chance that they're acting like that just around you because you supervise them?

To be honest, I do not really like ISTjs anyways ... I do not like the fact that they emphasize rules and think that relative things are absolute, and the insistance they have that everyone else should follow along. Drives me nuts.

[Angel von Himmel]

Hmm, this thread reminds me how sick I am of ISFjs in general.

Yeah, I think we are in the same boat when it comes to family. I stay away from ISFjs, too ... when I think of ISFjs, I think of pure evil in a chocolate covered shell! Good on the outside, bitter on the inside.

[mr_maguoo]

They have generally low self-esteeme and low self-confidence, mostly resulting from their poor ability to envision future potential.

They typically lack foresight, but they sure the heck know when something has been touched or is moved out of place.

They whine and worry about alot of stupid pointless crap and alot of them are workaholics; one of their greatest fears is starving to death. An ISTj could have money out of the wazoo and he or she could still have workaholic tendencies and worry about starvation.

Many of them believe that careing about a person or close family member means to restrict his or her person freedom, steal his or her personal valuables, and tell them how things are going to be according to the way that they understand things.

Some of them [not all of them] make a daily habit of running over people and pat themselves on the back for it afterwards while telling themselves that they did good. Then they have the nerve to consider someone who is confident and expedient a jerk-off ... I never could understand that one.

When you do something they feel is out of bounds or not according to their personal logic, they like to make statement similar to "Who taught YOU how to [something]?" or similar to "YOU need to learn how to do [something]!". I find both statements just as annoying as hell.

Alot of type descriptions say they are good administrators. Taking the ISTjs I have known they tend to make pretty crappy administrators, even though most are generally responsible and make sure things are financially secure. A buisness with an ISTj boss probably would have one hell of an employee turn-over; better to find other employment quick before the axe starts heading in your direction. I sure the heck would not work very long for a boss that is ISTj ...

Alot of that is quite inaccurate. ISTJs don't have below average self esteem or confidence they just choose not to flaunt it in front of others. They are likely to have a above average self esteem as they often
achieve goals due to their stamina determination and perserverence.

They save for the future as they know all to well wealth can be fleeting in this world full of change. A recession or stock market crash could just be looming around the corner.

They are wary of people who appear confident and likeable as they often have some self serving motive for gaining your trust or goodwill. The only reason they appear likeable is to get ahead of everyone else and they expect others to like them for it!

Other people often do not know the correct procedure for carrying out tasks and need to be told so, there is nothing wrong with constructive criticism as how are others going to improve if you don't tell them how to do something correctly.

[Creepy-rmcnew - not logged in]

Well, I did label the title of this thread with [ENTp's point of view]

I am not sure what type you are, Guest [person who wanted to state opinion anonymously], but I disagree with what you say about ISTjs. From what I have personally experienced about ISTjs ,they are extreemely unconfident ...

But I am speaking as an ENTp, I have a description I wrote about ENTps in the alpha forum you might want to read. It describes some of the reasons why ENTps do not like ISTj types.

However, I will eventually try to write a positive description of ISTjs. But, I can not base it on how I feel about them, because I do not like them and do not get along with them because of the fact I supervise them; all of my interactions with them have turned out bad and I have a very negitive view of them. So, what I said is true from an ENTps point of view and in result of the relationsship ENTps and ISTjs have together.

I may actually use what you wrote about ISTjs as a source in the future, thank you. I have absolutly no clue how to write anything positive about them.

[Rocky]

McNew has a biased opinion about ISTJs because of the relationship he has with his father.

[Angel von Himmel]

Rocky is right, I do have a biased opinion against them because my father is so screwed up; plus, other ISTjs I have been around were probably not necessarily the best example of men period, let alone ISTjs in general ...

By the way, I saw a guy who pretty much was a textbook ISTj at my school today ... big hugh immovable neck and deep shrill voice and everything; he was actually rather friendly.

But, I still do not have very many good things to say about them from a personal level. I will eventually try to write a non-biased ISTj typology description for my website, that I want to be fair and accurate. May take me some time though, because I will definatelly be doing alot of outside research to try to remove whatever sort of bias I may be tempted to put in it.

[Waddlesworth]

I'd say that it still is a pretty good interpretation. One that I know has a habit of recording conversations everyone has onto his cell phone. Sometimes you know he's doing it, sometimes you don't. But you always got to watch what you do or say, because one wrong word can place you into a very undesirable category to them.

They have very good memories and a good eye for flaws.

[mr_maguoo]

Well, I did label the title of this thread with [ENTp's point of view]

I am not sure what type you are, Guest [person who wanted to state opinion anonymously], but I disagree with what you say about ISTjs. From what I have personally experienced about ISTjs ,they are extreemely unconfident ...

But I am speaking as an ENTp, I have a description I wrote about ENTps in the alpha forum you might want to read. It describes some of the reasons why ENTps do not like ISTj types.

However, I will eventually try to write a positive description of ISTjs. But, I can not base it on how I feel about them, because I do not like them and do not get along with them because of the fact I supervise them; all of my interactions with them have turned out bad and I have a very negitive view of them. So, what I said is true from an ENTps point of view and in result of the relationsship ENTps and ISTjs have together.

I may actually use what you wrote about ISTjs as a source in the future, thank you. I have absolutly no clue how to write anything positive about them.

I'm the guest and I'm also an ISTJ and don't consider myself to be a particularly unconfident relative to others.

[Angel von Himmel]

Well, I did label the title of this thread with [ENTp's point of view]

I am not sure what type you are, Guest [person who wanted to state opinion anonymously], but I disagree with what you say about ISTjs. From what I have personally experienced about ISTjs ,they are extreemely unconfident ...

But I am speaking as an ENTp, I have a description I wrote about ENTps in the alpha forum you might want to read. It describes some of the reasons why ENTps do not like ISTj types.

However, I will eventually try to write a positive description of ISTjs. But, I can not base it on how I feel about them, because I do not like them and do not get along with them because of the fact I supervise them; all of my interactions with them have turned out bad and I have a very negitive view of them. So, what I said is true from an ENTps point of view and in result of the relationsship ENTps and ISTjs have together.

I may actually use what you wrote about ISTjs as a source in the future, thank you. I have absolutly no clue how to write anything positive about them.

I'm the guest and I'm also an ISTJ and don't consider myself to be a particularly unconfident relative to others.

What I mean by unconfident is that ISTjs place heavy importance on following familiar patterns, rules, and law, and have little or no intuitive insight into the future. They have problems seeing future potential and rely on the short-term for much of their reassurance.

To an ENTp, the way an ISTj behaves is perceived as pure unconfidence, because the ENTps strong point is future intuitive potential, and considers the present to be near irrevelent. Also, ENTps consider laws and patterns to only be circumstantial, bendable, and open to change, and are bugged by anyone [especially ISTjs] who intentionally follow rules, patterns, laws for what they perceive to be no real logical reason. They consider them childish, weak, and unconfident.

You have to consider the fact that because of the type of relationship that ISTjs and ENTps have together, there is little chance for peaceful resolutions between them. Because of an ISTjs tendency to want to supervise everyone, they do not want to be supervised themselves. They definatelly do not want any ENTps to superise them, intentional or not.

As ISTjs supervisees, ISTjs could attempt to one-up their supervisor ENTps for little or no reason and provoke power struggles. ISTjs want to make sure that they are in charge over their supervisor ENTps. ISTjs may result to bullying, manipulation, and violence to keep supervisor ENTps at bay. The natural ENTp behaviour is considered to be threatening to the livelihood of the ISTj, and there is little or nothing that ISTjs and ENTps can do to have healthy positive relationships with one another, it is impossible.

Because of this fact, I can not ever get close to an ISTj, ever ... I despise them because of the way that I have been treated [abused] by them and I have seen them treat others. I can not help to feel the way that I do about them, it is just the way it works. I avoid them and want nothing to do with them.

[mr_maguoo]

ISTJs do care very much about the future but don't speculate for the sake of speculation. They have a practical realistic view of the future as an extension of today.

[Angel von Himmel]

ISTJs do care very much about the future but don't speculate for the sake of speculation. They have a practical realistic view of the future as an extension of today.

Maybe, of course that does not change the way that ENTps and ISTjs view each other and vice versa ...

ENTps will always complain about the ISTjs lack of confidence, and the ISTjs will always complain that ENTps walk around spaced out, like they are in some fictional futuristic dream world.

Whether each perception is true or not, that is the way they are going to think of each other ... atleast that is what I [ENTp] and my father [ISTj] are always thinking and telling each other.

[Expat]

Ah, a bit of ISTJ-bashing is fun.

I have experience with several ISTJs, so I think rmcnew is right on many things, although perhaps he exaggerates a bit.

My comments:
rmcnew said:

They have generally low self-esteeme and low self-confidence, mostly resulting from their poor ability to envision future potential.

They typically lack foresight, but they sure the heck know when something has been touched or is moved out of place.

I agree with the above, even though they hide their low self-confidence.

My ISTJ friend notices and comments on things like the "proper" way of breaking a soft boiled egg.

rmcnew said:

Many of them believe that careing about a person or close family member means to restrict his or her person freedom, steal his or her personal valuables, and tell them how things are going to be according to the way that they understand things.

A bit over the top in my opinion, especially the "stealing" bit.


rmcnew said:

When you do something they feel is out of bounds or not according to their personal logic, they like to make statement similar to "Who taught YOU how to [something]?" or similar to "YOU need to learn how to do [something]!". I find both statements just as annoying as hell

Agreed -- and often on stuff like breaking eggs, other very minute details on table manners, how you organize your desk at work, etc.

rmcnew said:

Alot of type descriptions say they are good administrators. Taking the ISTjs I have known they tend to make pretty crappy administrators,

That's the most interesting point you raised, and I think the main issue is what "administrator" means. I think that an ISTJ makes a very good bureaucrat, since he/she will worry about, and implement, the most minute piece of nonsense provided that it's the way"things are supposed to be done". However, they are very poor leaders, that is, in the sense of making others want to follow them and their vision - which doesn't work since ISTJs are very poor on that.

So ISTJ bosses end up "leading" by imposing on others their own views on very detailed rules and procedures - I have plenty of experience on that.


rmcnew said:

I do not like the fact that they emphasize rules and think that relative things are absolute, and the insistance they have that everyone else should follow along. Drives me nuts.

Precisely. And they never realize that what they regard as "correct", "proper", etc, may be just relative. Total lack of flexibiliy. And they may not even explain to you why they think you have done something "wrong" in their eyes.

On the lack of foresight and vision -- my ISTJ friend (the guy who worries about how to break eggs) is very knowleadgeable about many things but connects the dots in wacky ways - - so he ends up believing all sorts of conspiracy theories.

My ISTJ ex-girlfriend shot herself in the foot professionally by threatening her boss with her resignation -- not realizing that he might have to accept it.

I can also say good things about them, but bashing is fun.

[mr_maguoo]

I don't know where u get low self esteem or low confidence. I don't feel any of these things, I have spoken to a crowd on numerous times while i admit it can be intimidating i still do it.

And in regards to foresight i know exactly who i am, what i want and where i'm headed. Its the unorganised types who are hazzy about the future.

And about following rules I only follow rules if they make sense to me, if they stand up to objective critical analysis. If i believe a rule is wrong or flawed and the flak from breaking it is not too great i will break it. My INTJ friend really annoys me cause when we were playing monopoly he followed the rules to the letter, and when the rules were in doubt he went with HIS convention. When i owed a debt to another player an ESFJ and offered a 'get out of paying me the next time u land on my property' offer HE made the biggest fuss over it cause it went against the rules and I said TOO BAD it was a matter for me and the ESFJ as i owed him the debt. HE REALLY ANNOYED ME WITH HIS RULES AND HIS CONVENTIONS.

So long as I wont get prosecuted by the law or be held in disrepute with the greater public and my social circles, when out of these circles I will follow my convictions on what I know to be right or wrong based on objective ethical standards!!!! I wont have the INTJ impose on me HIS rules and HIS interpretations on ANY MATTER WHATSOEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kirana]

what's the sense of playing the game, if you don't follow the rules? unless, you start out to play the game by ignoring the rules - in which case, anyone, not just you, should get to change rules and make alliances and agreements. it's like playing a sport, but negotiating on the rules in mid-game. i can just imagine the irate sports fans rioting outside the stadium... i don't think the INTJ was imposing HIS rules - they ARE the rules of the game, after all. and generally, i would consider that when i play a game, i assume that the standard rules apply.

anyways, rmcnew - i do think you exaggerate, but on the other hand, i do think you get a lot of it right. though i may not agree on the magnitude of the sins :wink: , i do agree on the qualities that you're trying to describe. i have a mom who seems suspiciously ISTJ. she prevents me from having contact with aunts who are scientists because she knows i am interested in science, specifically biology. she says she can't understand how anybody can be interested in leaves (one of my aunts' area of specialisation) and so she tries her best to prevent me from pursuing biology as a career. i can't think of a more ISTJ thing to do. fortunately, my dad is on my side and is slowly winning her over. still, i lost 5 years doing engineering, and now i'm stuck in an management engineering job which i absolutely hate.

generally, i find ISTJs intolerant of other types, especially rebellious types, and types that carve their own way, or imaginative, abstract types. which covers most of the NTs and NFs, i'd imagine, and maybe ISFPs. i'm reminded of one in HR in the company where i work. in a personal development course, when we had an exercise where we're supposed to write down things we appreciate about the other participants, this ISTJ wrote a criticism. it was "you should be more open" or something.

i get impatient with waffling, meandering types, but i'd still take them over most ISTJs. maybe it's because my own type is INTJ. my freedom and independence is most precious to me and ISTJs just love to limit that.

[mr_maguoo]

Exactly thats something an INTJ would say, i dont mean to be rude but your metaphor of the rugby match is out of place as the other party the ESFJ was in agreement. We were playing monopoly and if I want to negotiate with the ESFJ to give him a get out of paying me deal then and he is in agreement then its my choice to make! I'm not going to let some INTJ get away with his years of experience of monopoly to win the game.

He was also influencing the other player, this behaviour did not agree with me as he was manipulating the ESFJ under the pretence of offering him objective opinions about what decision to make whether to buy or sell property etc, however his alterior motive was to feed him subjective self serving opinons on what the ESFJ should do. At least I didn't go offering unwanted advice to serve my own ends. His actions were deplorable and of the lowest kind failing to show any sportsmanship whatsoever!!!!

[Angel von Himmel]

I actually agree with the INTj ... of course, the fact that I get along a whole lot better with INTjs might have a whole lot to do with that.

[Angel von Himmel]

Holy crap! I just read all that ... what a stupid thing to argue over.

[Kirana]

it is kind of dumb, isn't it?

just goes to show two totally different viewpoints, though. you can see how the two types (INTJ and ISTJ) have radically different ways of looking at the same thing. me, for instance - i'd consider that since i'm also playing the game, i should also be asked if i agree whether the other two players making an alliance against the rules is ok with me, even if i'm not in the alliance. let's see, what 's a sport with more than 2 players? what about rowing? two teams colluding to win 1st and 2nd - i'd imagine the rest of the contestants should feel that that sort of thing is ok, too, even if they do not wish to avail themselves of the same strategy. personally, it comes in my definition of sportsmanship. although, influencing the other contestant to mismanage his assets, although not against the rules, is somewhat unethical.

ah well - systemic viewpoint vs. local impact viewpoint. N vs S.

as an aside, so.... did you just say that you feel the INTJ is much better at the game (or at least experienced) so in order to prevent him from winning the game, an alliance with the other players is required, despite such a thing being against the rules? sorry, i really can't resist.

[Angel von Himmel]

I think it is silly how mr ISTj over here can talk about breaking rules when he feels they should broken, and then thinks he can whine about the fact that the other players where cooperating with the INTj in matters that the rule book does not even detail.

I think I said a few things about that sort of behaviour somewhere at the begginning of this thread, something about ISTjs attempting to enforce their own perceived logic on people, and then looking like total hypocrites when they become unrestrained over something stupid and totally breaking over their own logic.

Typical example in my book.

[Angel von Himmel]

Just to show you what I mean by this:

They are generally polite, and expect people to return the favor. But, for some reason the rules of politeness only seem to apply to what the ISTj thinks is polite behaviour; some tend to turn into major hypocrites and fail to follow even their own prescribed logic when they suddenly snap and become unrestrained in behaviour.

And about following rules I only follow rules if they make sense to me, if they stand up to objective critical analysis. If i believe a rule is wrong or flawed and the flak from breaking it is not too great i will break it. My INTJ friend really annoys me cause when we were playing monopoly he followed the rules to the letter, and when the rules were in doubt he went with HIS convention. When i owed a debt to another player an ESFJ and offered a 'get out of paying me the next time u land on my property' offer HE made the biggest fuss over it cause it went against the rules and I said TOO BAD it was a matter for me and the ESFJ as i owed him the debt. HE REALLY ANNOYED ME WITH HIS RULES AND HIS CONVENTIONS.

So long as I wont get prosecuted by the law or be held in disrepute with the greater public and my social circles, when out of these circles I will follow my convictions on what I know to be right or wrong based on objective ethical standards!!!! I wont have the INTJ impose on me HIS rules and HIS interpretations on ANY MATTER WHATSOEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!

Exactly thats something an INTJ would say, i dont mean to be rude but your metaphor of the rugby match is out of place as the other party the ESFJ was in agreement. We were playing monopoly and if I want to negotiate with the ESFJ to give him a get out of paying me deal then and he is in agreement then its my choice to make! I'm not going to let some INTJ get away with his years of experience of monopoly to win the game.

He was also influencing the other player, this behaviour did not agree with me as he was manipulating the ESFJ under the pretence of offering him objective opinions about what decision to make whether to buy or sell property etc, however his alterior motive was to feed him subjective self serving opinons on what the ESFJ should do. At least I didn't go offering unwanted advice to serve my own ends. His actions were deplorable and of the lowest kind failing to show any sportsmanship whatsoever!!!!

Did someone say checkmate?

[Angel von Himmel]

Hmmm, I wonder if we will be getting any more of these tell-tale proofs of ISTj nature ... rather facinating.

[mr_maguoo]

Are you to be congratulated for pointing out a lepoard's spots?

I am not ashamed by my actions or behaviour, the fact of the matter is he was behaving unethically by offering advice with the pretence of helping the other player but actually serving his own ends.

I am quite proud to be an ISTJ and would rather be the way I am than being the flawed INTJ I know all too well.

[Rocky]

I am quite proud to be an ISTJ and would rather be the way I am than being the flawed INTJ I know all too well.

I feel the same way about INTPs; make a lot of mistakes and are extremly flawed.

[Kirana]

it's healthy to be comfortable with your natural type.

but one thing i do appreciate about my ISTJ mother - which isn't usually common to most other ISTJs i meet - is that she lets her children argue with her, which enables us to show her how other people may hold very different views from her. in essence, she has learned to be willing to listen, and sometimes are genuinely able to put herself in another's place. my father, one of my brothers and myself seem to do this naturally, as a first course of action in a disagreement, but my other brother and my mother do not tend to allow that someone else's view is different but can also be right. and over the years, she has become much less defensive about her views - much less likely to assume that people are attacking/criticising her personally when we pick out logical flaws in her arguments.

understanding why she finds it so difficult to see my side of things (like i said, N vs. S) has helped me a bit to be patient with her. at least i know what i can and cannot hope to expect from her. of course, i still wish she could try to learn to understand me. but hey, she's at least tolerant, which is the first step to acceptance.

[Angel von Himmel]

Are you to be congratulated for pointing out a lepoard's spots?

I am not ashamed by my actions or behaviour, the fact of the matter is he was behaving unethically by offering advice with the pretence of helping the other player but actually serving his own ends.

I am quite proud to be an ISTJ and would rather be the way I am than being the flawed INTJ I know all too well.

I have absolutly no problem with ISTjs proving their own behaviour ... it helps me to learn more about them. Actually I do what I can to learn about every type.

As far as the INTj goes, he is in my quandra and shares the same values. I have done the same exact thing that he has done on more than one occasion. So, naturally I am going to emphasize with the INTj. I understand the motive, too.

[indigoroom]

I keep distance from most ISTjs. I have the feeling that they can turn against me in any moment if I break some of their own rules. They can spend lot of energy and time spitting against someone and they can do it very well. And since I'm distant they get suspicious about me and we never get close to each other.
Anyway there are "good" versions and I get along with them perfect.

[Expat]

I keep distance from most ISTjs. I have the feeling that they can turn against me in any moment if I break some of their own rules.

This thread is a bit old but I was thinking of this.

My main problem with ISTjs is that their rules are based on their own empirical observations and conclusions, and once they reached them, they are inflexible and ruthless in following and applying such rules.

That would not be so bad if such rules were well-known, because in that case you at least know where you stand. But often an ISTj will suddenly fire you, punish you, break up with you, etc - because you broke one of their rules, only you did not know they were rules in the first place. And in fact, an ISTj may reason that the fact that you did not even know they were rules just makes it worse.

My impression is that their hidden agenda makes them feel the need to believe in fixed rules for everything since they dislike impredictability and inflexibility, and they are over-anxious to decide on such rules even if based on insufficient data.

I have mentioned this example many times because its very idiocy is telling in my opinion. An ISTj friend of mine remarked that I am "odd" because I break off the top of soft boiled eggs differently from "everyone else". I made a point of asking other people how they do it, and several do it like me. But when I mentioned this to the ISTj, his reaction was of discomfort and disbelief.

As an INTj, I am often trying to find connections and trends and general principles. But I think of them as possibilites, and alternative ways of doing things don't bother me in the least - to find out that my conclusions were wrong is annoying to my pride, perhaps, but not greatly disturbing. Whereas ISTjs, once they become convinced of something, are really inflexible, even fanatics.

And the mere thought that their convictions and rules may be totally nonsensical to others - and fall apart if more factual evidence is presented - is extremely unsettling.

Just some thoughts, any comments?

[Creepy-Megan.]

I keep distance from most ISTjs. I have the feeling that they can turn against me in any moment if I break some of their own rules.

This thread is a bit old but I was thinking of this.

My main problem with ISTjs is that their rules are based on their own empirical observations and conclusions, and once they reached them, they are inflexible and ruthless in following and applying such rules.

That would not be so bad if such rules were well-known, because in that case you at least know where you stand. But often an ISTj will suddenly fire you, punish you, break up with you, etc - because you broke one of their rules, only you did not know they were rules in the first place. And in fact, an ISTj may reason that the fact that you did not even know they were rules just makes it worse....Just some thoughts, any comments?

I could not have expressed it better. I have had this very same issue with them and ISFjs too. I hesitated in responding because I fear that IS*js have been whipped to death on this forum by those who probably don't understand them or maybe understand them too well- not sure. While I know they are not evil they do require a whole lot of understanding for some people.
I think no one should feel guilt for keeping this thread active if what is being sought is honest understanding and dialogue; several of us are still trying to make sense of IS*js.

[Expat]

I could not have expressed it better. I have had this very same issue with them and ISFjs too. I hesitated in responding because I fear that IS*js have been whipped to death on this forum by those who probably don't understand them or maybe understand them too well- not sure. While I know they are not evil they do require a whole lot of understanding for some people.
I think no one should feel guilt for keeping this thread active if what is being sought is honest understanding and dialogue; several of us are still trying to make sense of IS*js.

I do not think ISTjs are "evil". For the record, one of my best friends is ISTj (another one is ENFp, and I bend over backwards not to supervise him, so I'm eclectic) and the only woman I was 100% sure I wanted to marry, in my entire life, was ISTj. Two of my dearest friends are ISFjs and I agree that they are as inflexible in their ethics (of their own creation) as ISTjs are in their rules.

However, I have had an ISTj as a boss, and it wasn't a pleasant experience; nor would I want to be in the place of my ISTj friend's children, however much I know he loves them. I totally understand, for instance, rmcnew's attitude with regard to his ISTj father. ISTjs are not any more "evil" than other types; the problem is their weak ability to conceive that their rules and conclusions are simply their rules and conclusions, not universal or absolute.

[Creepy-Megan.]

[/quote]
the problem is their weak ability to conceive that their rules and conclusions are simply their rules and conclusions, not universal or absolute.[/quote]

I have so far not been able to convince any IS*j I know of this. I think in my cause I will eventually have to just accept them without understanding them as much as I would like to. The problem with my ISTj 'friends' rules and conclusions is their unspoken nature and when I have found out about one of these rules (sometimes years later)and confronted them about it and there effects, then they usually resort to the 'everyone knows' or this is the way 'normal people behave' card then there is no amount of reasoning that will help them see the frailty of that position. I have this feeling of dealing with a very thick minded person even though they are often intelligent in so many other ways.

[Expat]

Megan,

You put it perfectly.

I disagree slightly on one point -- it is possible to make ISTjs (not sure about ISFjs) change their minds about their beliefs, but only with relentless logical reasoning backed up by tons of factual, incontrovertible information, aimed at showing how their reasoning was untenable. Since ISTjs are logical, even they eventually yield to this.

However, that is achieved at the cost of crushing their spirit, and their reaction will be to reach another inflexible conclusion, perhaps the total opposite of their previous one.

[Kirana]

"My main problem with ISTjs is that their rules are based on their own empirical observations and conclusions, and once they reached them, they are inflexible and ruthless in following and applying such rules."

expat, i know! the problem is, sometimes their empirical observations may have been insufficient. i mean, how can you be inflexible in a life philosophy or a world view or a belief, if you've not actually gone around other parts of the world? as an INTj, i don't understand this. at the hint that my belief could be based on insufficient information, or an insufficient exposure to experience, i'd look for a way to fix that, and expect the belief to survive if it's correct, or fail if it's not. it might disturb me, but it's an almost compulsive instinct - i don't think i could stop myself. but it's so hard to make him see the possibility that his experience to date may be insufficient to justify his position.

i think maybe he figures since it works, it still works, so it must be not wrong and there's no need to change it. especially when it's working better than many other people's opinions. i'm more like, would it still work in any and all conditions? is it in principle true? would the same conclusion still be derived even if your experiences have been different?

maybe there really is no hope that an ISTj and an INTj would get along in the long-term, even if you could somehow find two that miraculously like each other a great deal. i wouldn't mind this trait if the ISTj respects my space as he does, except the disagreement on fundamentals can be about something crucial.

[Fermi]

I think somebody haven't been getting enough lately...