The Office (US version)

[Gilly]

Wow, Michael Scott really does seem like a lame SLE, now that I think about it. I knew he was Beta for sure, but I was leaning more towards an EIE who's completely autistic or something. Good call, Joy.

I see something of you in Jim. Do you relate to that character?

Yeah, actually; he's a little more benevolent/less raucous/not as crass as I am, but I identify with his character's role in the office and his general demeanor is probably something what mine would have been like sans high school asshole conditioning.

Andy from Weeds is probably more like how I'll actually end up: wise-ass freak of a burn-out on the run from the draft

[Joy]

Haven't seen that one.

You know, at first I was thinking it may be possible for Jim to be an IEE. Ne dominant is all that seems apparent. I just generally have a few archetypes of ILE's in my mind, and he doesn't generally strike me as being all that similar to any of them. Of course, there's always room for adding to or changing my idea of what ILE's are like.

[plantrootz]

Working or jobs are Te.

No.

okay, explain please

[Joy]

I have no idea where to begin... I could just start a thread I suppose.

[plantrootz]

And can someone please explain why the characters are an Alpha caricature?

[Suomea]

I identify with his character's role in the office and his general demeanor is probably something what mine would have been like sans high school asshole conditioning.

What's the "sans high school asshole conditioning" mean by the way?.....

[Joy]

To answer your question from earlier, working or having a job is not related to any specific type/function/quadra/dichotomy/information aspect/element. (Or rather, it's related in many ways to all of them.)

And can someone please explain why the characters are an Alpha caricature?

The show takes place from an Alpha (perhaps Alpha/Delta?) perspective. The characters of other quadras are shown as negative stereotypes, and/or the differences in quadra values are exaggerated to the point being either faults or totally ridiculous quirks.

[plantrootz]

To answer your question from earlier, working or having a job is not related to any specific type/function/quadra/dichotomy/information aspect/element. (Or rather, it's related in many ways to all of them.)

I agree working and jobs are not limited to people who only value Te quadra, but it requires you to use Te. I think people who try to use their super ego functions and their strong unconscious function are probably under stress.

And can someone please explain why the characters are an Alpha caricature?

The show takes place from an Alpha (perhaps Alpha/Delta?) perspective. The characters of other quadras are shown as negative stereotypes, and/or the differences in quadra values are exaggerated to the point being either faults or totally ridiculous quirks.

Yeah the plots are probably in favor of alpha/delta, the characters just seem like exaggerated caricatures of their own type, not from the perspective of another. [edit]though alpha may observe a type acting like this another could observe it doing the same[edit]Unhealthy types do exist.

[Joy]

To answer your question from earlier, working or having a job is not related to any specific type/function/quadra/dichotomy/information aspect/element. (Or rather, it's related in many ways to all of them.)

I agree working and jobs are not limited to people who only value Te quadra, but it requires you to use Te. I think people who try to use their super ego functions and their strong unconscious function are probably under stress.

My job really fucking stresses me out. Am I a Fe/Ti type?

Seriously though, what doesn't require Te? All of our functions are working all of the time, even if only in the background, and most situations in life require the use of most if not all of them. Working/having a job is NOT Te. We can discuss this in another thread if you'd like.

[Ms. Kensington]

Dwight Schrute (Assistant "to the" Regional Manager) ISTj

Yes! That guy is ISTj I think, he cracks me up.
"RETALIATION" ahahahahahha

FALSE.

MICHAEL!!!!!

[plantrootz]

My job really fucking stresses me out. Am I a Fe/Ti type?

Well okay, why does it stress you out? People of the same types don't always have the same capacity for working(age difference, body types, health levels, etc., this applies to everyone). It's more of valuing.

[plantrootz]

Michael reminds me of Jon Stewart, well at least the younger version of him that I see from interviews. I don't watch the Daily Show. I typed Jon Stewart as INFp. here's a video of him:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx55TE93zlk[/youtube]

[Gilly]

Haven't seen that one.

You know, at first I was thinking it may be possible for Jim to be an IEE. Ne dominant is all that seems apparent. I just generally have a few archetypes of ILE's in my mind, and he doesn't generally strike me as being all that similar to any of them. Of course, there's always room for adding to or changing my idea of what ILE's are like.

Mmm...I think Jim takes a little bit of a populist attitude towards the whole office politics thing to be an Fi type. He makes sure everyone likes him, but he doesn't really take care to cultivate deep relationships with anyone in the office; he prefers to flirt with Pam and exploit his pull in the office in order to be a lazy/silly.

I'd think Jim's problems with Pam and her ex could be indicative of Fi PoLR.

[Gilly]

I identify with his character's role in the office and his general demeanor is probably something what mine would have been like sans high school asshole conditioning.

What's the "sans high school asshole conditioning" mean by the way?.....

Basically what I'd be like if I hadn't gotten into the drug world or gone to boarding school. Both introduce a whole new level of stress into your life and people associated with either tend to be a little jaded/asshole-ish.

[Logos]

Haven't seen that one.

You know, at first I was thinking it may be possible for Jim to be an IEE. Ne dominant is all that seems apparent. I just generally have a few archetypes of ILE's in my mind, and he doesn't generally strike me as being all that similar to any of them. Of course, there's always room for adding to or changing my idea of what ILE's are like.

To contribute to what Gilly said, he does show use of Creative- in how he talks with Dwight and Michael. And again, he does not act as Dwight's conflictor, but as Dwight's supervisor as can easily be seen in Health Plan episode in the first season. And his interactions with other coworkers does seem to indicate a HA as opposed to a HA, which there is nothing in the show to indicate he possesses it. And then there are the large group activities that he organizes for his coworkers to alleviate their boredom in The Office Olympics and The Fire episodes in Season 2, which indicates Alpha! Alpha! Alpha!

[plantrootz]

Jim and Dwights relationship does not look ANYTHING like Supervision if you ever read the description. his relations with people are Fi creative not Fe HA. Boredom alleviation depends on the person's likes, not type.

"The Supervisee normally wants to gain recognition and commendation from the Supervisor. However, it may seem like the Supervisor always undervalues the abilities of the Supervisee. This stimulates the Supervisee into proving their own worthiness with various actions, yet there is little chance that they will succeed."

[Logos]

Are you sure that you are watching the same show as the rest of us are?

[plantrootz]

Yes, the U.S. version. His Te HA is shown from him pulling his pranks. I think you people are confusing this with Fe HA. To Ti types this looks like illogical behaviour, and is also possibly disrespectful to their freedom. Here's a copy/paste of Te hidden agenda for ENFp:

6. Activation function: business logic

His mood depends on the nature of work performed. If she or he neinteresna seems useless, his mood was deteriorating badly. For the same reason, not inclined to the regular reference of living and housekeeping. There is an inclination to adventurism. Likes to get into unusual situations, to unexpected things. This way gets a taste for life. He had no prudence and pragmatism. If something is organizing, it does so for the soul, not for profit. The best reward for his work is admired and positive emotions. A great place in his life took a game-connect with a pleasant helpful. Strives work or in the process of learning to transfer gambling forms.

sorry for terrible translation

[plantrootz]

Also Te HA from ESFp:

6. Activation function: business logic

His mood depends on how well it goes affairs. To improve his emotional state, you must invite him to a profitable business. Inclined to be more generous to a waste if the mood raised, the thrifty and sparing even if emotionally oppressed. In his important emotions. Not able to work if the occupation think it boring. Any case can turn into fun, give it character of the show. Very irritated and zlitsya if his bypass, or so-in distributing material that he had the lower than others. Because of this, and may poskandalit.

Sorry for terrible translation. Also you can read profitable business as his pranks that he pulls off with Dwight.

Btw I got these from here: http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl...-gul-func.html

[Joy]

no spoilers

(not that it really matters with a sitcom)


Anyways, last night I saw the episode with the fire and Ryan's evaluation. I definitely agree that he's not LII (though I do think the actor who plays him is). I actually think he could be LIE, based on that episode alone. There's even a good example of a relation of benefit between Michael and Ryan (but again, I have only seen up to that point so far).

[Joy]

btw, I think it's clear that Jim's feelings towards Pam go beyond attraction and enjoying flirting with her.

[Joy]

plantrootz, you're getting ahead of yourself. It's better to take it slow in the beginning and not get overly ambitious in typing people and arguing their types. It takes an irl understanding and for for the application of Socionics in order to move forward, and if you rely on descriptions you're just going to confuse yourself. I believed my type to be ILE (ENTp) for like 6 months because I did exactly what you're doing... using descriptions to type people without actually understanding what each of the information elements is and the irl ways in which they are manifested.

Jim is not Se dominant. He's also not Te dominant. Jim is far too calm, noninvasive, indirect, and mild mannered to be either (especially Se dominant). He very obviously is not Te dominant in that he shows little concern for getting stuff accomplished. He does what he has to do, entertains himself a little, and goes home. He does not have an EJ temperament.

[plantrootz]

plantrootz, you're getting ahead of yourself. It's better to take it slow in the beginning and not get overly ambitious in typing people and arguing their types. It takes an irl understanding and for for the application of Socionics in order to move forward, and if you rely on descriptions you're just going to confuse yourself. I believed my type to be ILE (ENTp) for like 6 months because I did exactly what you're doing... using descriptions to type people without actually understanding what each of the information elements is and the irl ways in which they are manifested.

Jim is not Se dominant. He's also not Te dominant. Jim is far too calm, noninvasive, indirect, and mild mannered to be either (especially Se dominant). He very obviously is not Te dominant in that he shows little concern for getting stuff accomplished. He does what he has to do, entertains himself a little, and goes home. He does not have an EJ temperament.

Thank you but I was describing his Te as hidden agenda. Also I'm not in the beginning of learning about socionics, I've known about it for a while.

[Joy]

Sorry, I thought you had suggested that he was a Te dominant point earlier. Nevermind.

However, if you think Jim could be SEE (ESFp), then everything else I said still applies.

[Gilly]

btw, I think it's clear that Jim's feelings towards Pam go beyond attraction and enjoying flirting with her.

Yeah but that's all he ever lets on to openly, except in really intense moments.

[discojoe]

btw, I think it's clear that Jim's feelings towards Pam go beyond attraction and enjoying flirting with her.

Yeah but that's all he ever lets on to openly, except in really intense moments.

If all I ever saw of them was their interactions at Pam's desk, it would still be extremely obvious to me that he was practically in love with her.

[Gilly]

But you can't deny that they obviously both try to keep things "light." They never talk about their feelings or anything intense/deep/relationship-related; just small talk and pranks, really.

[Joy]

It's still apparent that he's beyond infatuated with her. The show has 3 themes: how depressing that type of job is, how ridiculous Jim's coworkers are (especially Michael), and how Jim's totally taken with a coworker but doesn't/can't explore the possibility of a relationship.

[Logos]

no spoilers

(not that it really matters with a sitcom)


Anyways, last night I saw the episode with the fire and Ryan's evaluation. I definitely agree that he's not LII (though I do think the actor who plays him is). I actually think he could be LIE, based on that episode alone. There's even a good example of a relation of benefit between Michael and Ryan (but again, I have only seen up to that point so far).

Well one of the reasons why I was thinking about ExTj with Ryan was simply because of how similar Expat's experience with dating an ESFj and his belief that he was an IJ temperament was to Ryan dating Kelly and your belief that Ryan had an IJ temperament.

btw, I think it's clear that Jim's feelings towards Pam go beyond attraction and enjoying flirting with her.

Yeah but that's all he ever lets on to openly, except in really intense moments.

If all I ever saw of them was their interactions at Pam's desk, it would still be extremely obvious to me that he was practically in love with her.

Well it was somewhat obvious to the rest of office.

His Te HA is shown from him pulling his pranks.

No.

I think you people are confusing this with Fe HA.

Wrong again. The Fe HA comes not so much from pranks, though it does play a part in him trying to get close to Pam who also happens to love pranks, but from his interactions in the Office where he tries to maintain a > atmosphere in terms of the relations he has with his coworkers.

To Ti types this looks like illogical behaviour, and is also possibly disrespectful to their freedom.

Gilly and I are types and we are telling you that Jim is an ENTp with galore!

And plantrootz, Jim is so much more

The individual longs for situations where people are having fun, laughing and joking, and feel emotionally free and spontaneous. However, he is generally unable to produce this atmosphere himself and uses other means to create situations where there is a good chance that others will take the emotional initiative and create a fun and emotionally stimulating atmosphere. Failure at such attempts are met with dismay, which the individual either hides or reacts to with frustration and annoyance.

>>>>>

The individual is keen on accumulating factual knowledge on subjects of personal interest and those that help him be more efficient and productive, but he's often unsure of his ability to find and select the correct information and is therefore attracted to people whom he sees as competent in that area and reassure him.

[Joy]

no spoilers

(not that it really matters with a sitcom)


Anyways, last night I saw the episode with the fire and Ryan's evaluation. I definitely agree that he's not LII (though I do think the actor who plays him is). I actually think he could be LIE, based on that episode alone. There's even a good example of a relation of benefit between Michael and Ryan (but again, I have only seen up to that point so far).

Well one of the reasons why I was thinking about ExTj with Ryan was simply because of how similar Expat's experience with dating an ESFj and his belief that he was an IJ temperament was to Ryan dating Kelly and your belief that Ryan had an IJ temperament.

My focus wasn't on the IJ temperament, it was mostly on his mannerisms and expressions, which are very LII (at least next to the LII's I've known irl). His character doesn't really say or do much though until the episode with the fire, which I just saw, and in that episode he does not seem to have an IJ temperament at all.

Basically, I think the actor is LII, but I haven't seen any particular evidence of an IJ temperament in the character (though he has always seemed to be a rational type, and I'd be surprised if he was sensory because he seems to have weak Se when he deals with Michael).

[Gilly]

It's still apparent that he's beyond infatuated with her. The show has 3 themes: how depressing that type of job is, how ridiculous Jim's coworkers are (especially Michael), and how Jim's totally taken with a coworker but doesn't/can't explore the possibility of a relationship.

Now read that last one over again.

[Logos]

It's still apparent that he's beyond infatuated with her. The show has 3 themes: how depressing that type of job is, how ridiculous Jim's coworkers are (especially Michael), and how Jim's totally taken with a coworker but doesn't/can't explore the possibility of a relationship.

Jim cannot start a relationship with Pam since she is engaged to Roy, and in one episode in a bonus scene he says that the worst date he ever had was when he first came to the job and took out an employee to dinner and they got along so incredibly well only for him to find out that she was already engaged (Pam). So since that time, he still does long for a potential relationship, but he still plays a flirtatious game because he does enjoy being around her for the and that she provides. And the pranks give him an excuse to team up with Pam and for them to have Alpha fun together in their mundane work world.

[Joy]

It's still apparent that he's beyond infatuated with her. The show has 3 themes: how depressing that type of job is, how ridiculous Jim's coworkers are (especially Michael), and how Jim's totally taken with a coworker but doesn't/can't explore the possibility of a relationship.

Now read that last one over again.

Looking back over your posts, I think I misunderstood you... I thought you were saying that he doesn't want a real relationship with her.

he still does long for a potential relationship, but he still plays a flirtatious game because he does enjoy being around her for the and that she provides. And the pranks give him an excuse to team up with Pam and for them to have Alpha fun together in their mundane work world.

Exactly. It's like... the flirting is as closest as he can get to her right now, so that's what he does. He does everything he can to be as involved with her as he can, which isn't much more than what you mentioned, given the situation.

[Logos]

Of course that is not to say that Jim does not enjoy pranks, as he still loves pranks even when he is not in he company of Pam, but just that they share a common appreciation of simple pranks to break the monotony of work and against the very same people who seem to make it miserable.

[plantrootz]

His Te HA is shown from him pulling his pranks.

No. Yes. Person who created Borat is another example of Te HA.

I think you people are confusing this with Fe HA.

Wrong again. The Fe HA comes not so much from pranks, though it does play a part in him trying to get close to Pam who also happens to love pranks, but from his interactions in the Office where he tries to maintain a > atmosphere in terms of the relations he has with his coworkers. Maintaining personl favourable bonds through Fi by creating prankish situations through Te HA (also Ti PoLR, they don't see the theoretical impact[Ti creative/dominant] of what they do to Fe i.e, doesnt realize he's putting himself in jeopardy with what he's doing to Dwight because he could retaliate, also doing it all to keep himself favourable with Pam which is Fi creative). Fi Polr is neutral towards people, because they see similar theoretical implications between different things. Fi Polr(Ti creative) doesnt establish personal bonds. Ti Polr(Fi creative) maintains personal bonds. He's maintaining personal bonds with Pam. Explaining the relation between Pam and Jim with Ti and Fe is not likely, when acknowledging the fact of his Te HA pranks and maintainence of being in a favourable position with Pam. Also Pam is not Fe creative.

To Ti types this looks like illogical behaviour, and is also possibly disrespectful to their freedom.

Gilly and I are types and we are telling you that Jim is an ENTp with galore!
That doesn't explain anything because it only applies to you and Gilly and not other Ti types. But it's questionable if Te HA appeals to you
And plantrootz, Jim is so much more

The individual longs for situations where people are having fun, laughing and joking, and feel emotionally free and spontaneous. However, he is generally unable to produce this atmosphere himself and uses other means to create situations where there is a good chance that others will take the emotional initiative and create a fun and emotionally stimulating atmosphere. Failure at such attempts are met with dismay, which the individual either hides or reacts to with frustration and annoyance.

Only seems that way because you are confusing Fe HA with Fi creative in regards to Jim
>>>>>

The individual is keen on accumulating factual knowledge on subjects of personal interest and those that help him be more efficient and productive, but he's often unsure of his ability to find and select the correct information and is therefore attracted to people whom he sees as competent in that area and reassure him.

This description looks incomplete and could apply to anybody in that situation.

[Logos]

Yeah, you definitely have a -PoLR, because reality of the situation is definitely not sinking into your head.

[plantrootz]

Bizarro-socionics is thataway ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

[Logos]

It's good to know you can find your way home.

But shall we compare the number of people in this thread who have said Jim is an ENTp vs. everyone else (which is just you by the way)? :wink:

[plantrootz]

It's good to know you can find your way home.

But shall we compare the number of people in this thread who have said Jim is an ENTp vs. everyone else (which is just you by the way)? :wink:

Okay, but if you want to do that you'd have to ask everyone else who knows socionics to get a fair answer.

[Ms. Kensington]

btw, I think it's clear that Jim's feelings towards Pam go beyond attraction and enjoying flirting with her.

Yeah but that's all he ever lets on to openly, except in really intense moments.

If all I ever saw of them was their interactions at Pam's desk, it would still be extremely obvious to me that he was practically in love with her.

hm, yeah.