Type These Well-Known Presidents

[Phaedrus]

Didn't quite understand that - isn't a Socionics ISFj always supposed to be either an MBTI ISFJ or ISFP? Guess I'm revealing some ignorance here ...

I disagree with what you just said, and Phaedrus, but I will just say what I mean --

Please, Expat. Don't you see that you are contradicting yourself? Your views on this matter are not consistent. You admit that an MBTT ISFJ is closest to a socionic ISFj. That means that every MBTT ISFJ is a socionic ISFj, because the defining criterion for being an ISFJ is that you fit the type descriptions, which means that if you are an ISFJ you belong to the group of people that they are trying to portray in their ISFJ type descriptions. Under no circumstances is it possible to be an ISFJ and not be a socionic ISFj. That makes no sense at all if you have understood what it means to be a type in MBTT. And Keirsey's ISFJs are completely identical to MBTT ISFJs. The only difference is that Keirsey doesn't talk about functions. The type descriptions are extremely similar. It is absolutely impossible that they are talking about different groups of people.

It seems to me that Keirsey's "temperaments" are too often seen as closely related to a person's main aspirations and areas of interest; in the case of NF, a sort of spiritual, global idealism or romanticism; in the case of SJ, a more sort of "down-to earth" approach.

Yes, but that is not relevant, because you don't become an NF Idealist just because you have a spriritual, global idealism or romanticism. NF Idealists is only the name for a group of types in Keirsey's model -- that special group of four specific types, namely ENFJs, INFJs, ENFPs, and INFPs. The types come first. They are the primary units even for Keirsey. And if you are a socionic ISFj, you necessarily (this is a logical necessity based on the meanings of the words that are used in the type descriptions) must be an ISFJ in both MBTT and Keirsey's model, since that is the only possible alternative that is consistent with the type descriptions.

From Carter's supposed and so-called global idealism and do-goodism, besides references to God, UFOs etc, he might be seen as a Keirsey NF.

But that would then only be a preliminary guess on his type. And it would be wrong if Carter is an ISFj.

However, a guy who, in interviews, talks spontaneously about the need to be tough on people seems to me to be more Se than Ne. So I think that ISFj Fi subtype is probably right for him.

I don't question that. If you are right Carter is a Guardian.

I don't think that Keirsey's temperaments are even identical to the MBTI equivalent, by the way. Similar yes, but not identical.

MBTT uses Keirsey's four temperament groups in their own published material. There is no difference at all. To talk about temperaments in MBTT is to talk about Keirsey's temperaments. The theories are not identical, and the type descriptions are not 100 % identical, but the types (which are demarcated by the type descriptions) are so extremely similar that it is ridiculous to claim that they are not talking about the exact same groups of people. An ISFJ in MBTT is always an ISFJ in Keirsey's model.