Negative Descriptions

[fauxpunk]

In all of my research, it feels like intertype descriptions are always so negative. In no way do I mean talking about how relationships can struggle is a bad thing, but it feels like every anecdote they add to the end of descriptions goes "X type and X type were consistently frustrated with each other forever and ever until one of them died of tuberculosis. Then the remaining X lived in sorrow and misery for the rest of their life." I mean, it's definitely descriptive and interesting, but I also wouldn't mind hearing about the good parts every now and then, lol.

[loopyclouds]

LOL yeah. I guess it’s because duality is held as the ideal/good standard, so descriptions of any other ITR are framed such that they emphasize all the ways that that ITR falls short of duality. It isn’t a good thing imo. I feel like I’m now hyperaware of all the flaws in my relations, where I didn’t even notice them or would be more tolerant of them before socionics. I feel like we don’t have to have the 100% ideal, perfect or matching partner. But for perfectionists like me, who cling onto the idea of perfection once we’re aware that there is a possibility of it out there, socionics is bad news. Hmm I guess at the end of my life, I’ll get to evaluate whether socionics was more beneficial or harmful to my life. I’ll be happily married or unintentionally (?) single….

[anotherperson]

the original duality was made based on some economic principles: idea being the mental ring is the "request" or the "thing" and the vital ring is the "labour or production" made with it.

the research on the "economics" of ITR was not completed before new versions of socionics began to appear (bukalov's, gulenko's, etc.) , they took the incomplete ITR and made it less economical and more about romance and love , ofc, this latter idea is much easier to sensationalise and make tragic/comic stories of it


if you want positive ITRs try: benefit, mirage, semi-dual

[Adam Strange]

In all of my research, it feels like intertype descriptions are always so negative. In no way do I mean talking about how relationships can struggle is a bad thing, but it feels like every anecdote they add to the end of descriptions goes "X type and X type were consistently frustrated with each other forever and ever until one of them died of tuberculosis. Then the remaining X lived in sorrow and misery for the rest of their life." I mean, it's definitely descriptive and interesting, but I also wouldn't mind hearing about the good parts every now and then, lol.

You aren't the first person to notice this.

[FDG]

It depends on the person and how lucky they were in their childhood. For example, I met some ESIs with heavy baggage (family stuff), and it was almost impossible for me to interact with them decently. They were suspicious, angry, bossy and jealous - however they were subconsciously still attracted. Now if a dual without baggage deals with a dual with baggage, it's difficult. You have to teach them how to open up. However, sometimes it's just too much work and it's better to leave them to their own devices. If you interact with a dual without baggage and then you meet one with baggage, it's very difficult to help them, you feel like you are wasting your time.

[fauxpunk]

LOL yeah. I guess it’s because duality is held as the ideal/good standard, so descriptions of any other ITR are framed such that they emphasize all the ways that that ITR falls short of duality. It isn’t a good thing imo. I feel like I’m now hyperaware of all the flaws in my relations, where I didn’t even notice them or would be more tolerant of them before socionics. I feel like we don’t have to have the 100% ideal, perfect or matching partner. But for perfectionists like me, who cling onto the idea of perfection once we’re aware that there is a possibility of it out there, socionics is bad news. Hmm I guess at the end of my life, I’ll get to evaluate whether socionics was more beneficial or harmful to my life. I’ll be happily married or unintentionally (?) single….

I super agree. I went into socionics with the desire to improve my relationships and I ended up fixating more on how I or others were falling short. Woops lol. Though I have learned a lot of good things from it, so I don't think it's all bad.

[fauxpunk]

the original duality was made based on some economic principles: idea being the mental ring is the "request" or the "thing" and the vital ring is the "labour or production" made with it.

the research on the "economics" of ITR was not completed before new versions of socionics began to appear (bukalov's, gulenko's, etc.) , they took the incomplete ITR and made it less economical and more about romance and love , ofc, this latter idea is much easier to sensationalise and make tragic/comic stories of it


if you want positive ITRs try: benefit, mirage, semi-dual

Super interesting. I wonder how different the community would be if dualization wasn't so sensationalized.

Also; heavily agree with the positive ITRs. I'm in a benefit relationship with my best friend (SEI) and I've always really adored the ESEs in my life (even if their Fe base can be offputting, lol). Semi-Duals are fascinating but unfortunately I don't have as much experience with them.

All in all, what really matters is the willingness to preserve a relationship and the happiness of the people within it, yeah?

[fauxpunk]

You aren't the first person to notice this.

Well I'm glad it's not just me lol. I really like the set up to the video; it sums up my thoughts on the matter pretty well. Although, it makes me wonder about identical types. I agree that I've found most EIIs kind of boring, but I'm also an enneagram 4 so that could just be a me issue. Though, there was one EII who I liked and found extremely intellectually engaging, so I have to disagree with the idea that you can't create any friction with your identical type. Though, maybe I was the student in that relationship lol.

[fauxpunk]

If you interact with a dual without baggage and then you meet one with baggage, it's very difficult to help them, you feel like you are wasting your time.

Yeah, agreed. I met two LSEs within the same time period with two very different health levels; one was hardworking and open minded, while the other one was paranoid, overly idealistic and neurotic. It definitely felt a bit awkward trying to get along with the second LSE when I was talking to the first one in a more healthy manner.

[Adam Strange]

It depends on the person and how lucky they were in their childhood. For example, I met some ESIs with heavy baggage (family stuff), and it was almost impossible for me to interact with them decently. They were suspicious, angry, bossy and jealous - however they were subconsciously still attracted. Now if a dual without baggage deals with a dual with baggage, it's difficult. You have to teach them how to open up. However, sometimes it's just too much work and it's better to leave them to their own devices. If you interact with a dual without baggage and then you meet one with baggage, it's very difficult to help them, you feel like you are wasting your time.

Quoted for greatness.

The quoted above has been my experience, too, but I was slow to learn because I was late to the table.

[Muira]

Yeah, agreed. I met two LSEs within the same time period with two very different health levels; one was hardworking and open minded, while the other one was paranoid, overly idealistic and neurotic. It definitely felt a bit awkward trying to get along with the second LSE when I was talking to the first one in a more healthy manner.

Greater proof that actually getting along with people depends on their temperament and overall decency, and not on their socionic type (alone at least). I'd imagine that socionic type would only be a small factor, and not be-all end-all thing that it's made out to be.

[fauxpunk]

Yep. I feel like there are too many people that use socionics as a way to justify avoiding certain people instead of facing their issues LOL

[Muira]

Yep. I feel like there are too many people that use socionics as a way to justify avoiding certain people instead of facing their issues LOL

Heck typing based off of ITR is one of the most unreliable methods.

Just imagine someone saying, "I know that peice of shit was my conflict!"

Meanwhile it was probably because that person was just a bitch regardless of their socionic type

[Kurt Gabin]

In all of my research, it feels like intertype descriptions are always so negative. In no way do I mean talking about how relationships can struggle is a bad thing, but it feels like every anecdote they add to the end of descriptions goes "X type and X type were consistently frustrated with each other forever and ever until one of them died of tuberculosis. Then the remaining X lived in sorrow and misery for the rest of their life." I mean, it's definitely descriptive and interesting, but I also wouldn't mind hearing about the good parts every now and then, lol.

Well, first of all, the descriptions are bottom. This is the entry level for those who are just getting acquainted with socionics. Move on and form your own opinion. There is no single correct version of socionics - since it is non-profit, everyone has their own.

Secondly, descriptions of relationships were made only by Ni-valuing authors, so they are usually a subjective fantasies of their creators. For example, Stratievskaya, IMO, should be prohibited by the Geneva Convention.

And thirdly, more intimate relationships than small talk really only go well between activators, duals and maybe between few other types.

[fauxpunk]

I have my own opinions of things, I just like reading about other peoples experiences with different types and seeing how they managed to smooth out conflicts. Its an interest of mine lol.

And I disagree with the last point. You can make anything work if both people really put their mind to it lol (or at least that's my naive mindset).

[FDG]

Greater proof that actually getting along with people depends on their temperament and overall decency, and not on their socionic type (alone at least). I'd imagine that socionic type would only be a small factor, and not be-all end-all thing that it's made out to be.

Socionics means that they automatically deal with the stuff you suck at and they do it in a way that doesn't hurt you. However for example with an ESI female I was talking about, she had serious problems from a previous boyfriend who was cheating so she was constantly cheating to prevent cheating (I was 19 and I didn't care, but after 2 times I stopped having sex with her and she was wondering why....). I only do serious relationships, it can go wrong but I always start serious. Anyway with such enormous baggage, it's almost impossible to have a relationship even if you are duals.
Another one at work, a guy, was abandoned by his father as a small kid. Even if I was 8 years younger, due to various reasons (living alone with my own money since I was 18 lol, like in the US) I was acting like a father figure for him. No problem until he started "fighting" for his indipendence (as if I was really the father) and I was like look...just giving you advice...then I left for another city and now he constantly calls me. Now that he's older he even wants to give me money???? Idk. ESIs are weird.

[Muira]

Socionics means that they automatically deal with the stuff you suck at and they do it in a way that doesn't hurt you. However for example with an ESI female I was talking about, she had serious problems from a previous boyfriend who was cheating so she was constantly cheating to prevent cheating (I was 19 and I didn't care, but after 2 times I stopped having sex with her and she was wondering why....). I only do serious relationships, it can go wrong but I always start serious. Anyway with such enormous baggage, it's almost impossible to have a relationship even if you are duals.
Another one at work, a guy, was abandoned by his father as a small kid. Even if I was 8 years younger, due to various reasons (living alone with my own money since I was 18 lol, like in the US) I was acting like a father figure for him. No problem until he started "fighting" for his indipendence (as if I was really the father) and I was like look...just giving you advice...then I left for another city and now he constantly calls me. Now that he's older he even wants to give me money???? Idk. ESIs are weird.

sounds like a bullshit excuse to act out, that was a her problem.

But good example

[FDG]

sounds like a bullshit excuse to act out, that was a her problem.

But good example

Nahh she really had problems, wasn't an excuse. I tried to help her but honestly I had my life to live. Now that she's older she's okay but she's done with men, she lives with her cat...maybe good decision lol.

[Adam Strange]

Nahh she really had problems, wasn't an excuse. I tried to help her but honestly I had my life to live. Now that she's older she's okay but she's done with men, she lives with her cat...maybe good decision lol.

A surprising number of my exes live alone, with a cat.

I'd like to think that has nothing to do with me.

[Metanoia]

Sometimes all it takes is a look beneath the surface. First time it happened to me... No shit, I was petrified. It was enough for me to walk away before even saying my name.

[fauxpunk]

A surprising number of my exes live alone, with a cat.

I'd like to think that has nothing to do with me.

Maybe ENTjs are the real problem here...

[fauxpunk]

Sometimes all it takes is a look beneath the surface. First time it happened to me... No shit, I was petrified. It was enough for me to walk away before even saying my name.

Was this with a dual, or...?

[FDG]

A surprising number of my exes live alone, with a cat.

I'd like to think that has nothing to do with me.

In that case it had nothing to do with me, it was a previous boyfriend...or maybe something in her family...idk honestly I had my life to live, I was going to university, working and cycling. No time for her issues. However...she was smoking hot...when you are 19...it's impossible to resist...

[FDG]

Maybe ENTjs are the real problem here...

No it's just that Ni creatives like to heal people who have mental issues. It's written in the description. As soon as you know this trait you know what to avoid.

[Metanoia]

Was this with a dual, or...?

Ugh let's hope not. All jokes aside, the experience was intense for me. I felt like I saw everything in such a short amount of time like reading an open book. It was weird. Something about her was off putting at first like she had this studying gaze but for some reason I guess I found beauty in her chaos. But I knew she wouldn't be a safe connection to deal with in the future. For reasons I won't mention it was toxic and I protected my peace lol

[FDG]

Ugh let's hope not. All jokes aside, the experience was intense for me. I felt like I saw everything in such a short amount of time like reading an open book. It was weird. Something about her was off putting at first like she had this studying gaze but for some reason I guess I found beauty in her chaos. But I knew she wouldn't be a safe connection to deal with in the future. For reasons I won't mention it was toxic and I protected my peace lol

This ESI I was talking about, when I left her...she stalked me (I found her multiple times next to my apartment when I was going to work or school). I had to call the police and make a restraining order. Just to understand the order of magnitude. A previous forum member (implied?) accused me of calling a woman "crazy" because it's toxic masculinity. It's not about women or men, some people have mental problems.

Unfortunately it's not always about the person. Another friend of mine, LIE, had a fast fatal car accident, luckily he came out alive. Since then however, he has developed mental troubles.

[Adam Strange]

No it's just that Ni creatives like to heal people who have mental issues. It's written in the description. As soon as you know this trait you know what to avoid.

Well, by God, the first part has been true of me. Only recently have I started giving up on people who were too damaged.

[Metanoia]

This ESI I was talking about, when I left her...she stalked me (I found her multiple times next to my apartment when I was going to work or school). I had to call the police and make a restraining order. Just to understand the order of magnitude. A previous forum member (implied?) accused me of calling a woman "crazy" because it's toxic masculinity. It's not about women or men, some people have mental problems.

Unfortunately it's not always about the person. Another friend of mine, LIE, had a fast fatal car accident, luckily he came out alive. Since then however, he has developed mental troubles.

That part is true. Anyone can be crazy. It just makes it harder to cut a connection if you have an attachment to that person, not necessarily if you're attracted or not to them. But sometimes it doesn't matter how you feel you have to look at a situation objectively and make a decision for yourself.

That woman I knew had mental problems certainly. Not from an accident, but from childhood trauma and such. I could practically even hear her thoughts and criticisms she had towards herself and others it was, at the time, horrifying to witness but eh I'm glad I experienced it at the same time. It made me face some things of my own. Like an opportunity for growth.

I'm sorry about your friend. It must have been devastating to see such a drastic change in your friend. May he have a speedy recovery.

[BrainlessSquid]

My girlfriend is my opposite and that has definitely influenced my relationship with her.
Being completely authentic and acting on my instincts always renders the best results in our communication and getting along.

Not with most other people.

I can talk to her everyday almost the entire day, and I rarely if ever get bored.

The point is, type has a huge impact, I wouldn't be able to have that if she had another dominant function, it seems..

But I agree that getting along does not depend on type alone (I used to fight with her a lot before I realized I could just be totally "myself" and get totally denuded, and that realization made the relation smooth)

But well, most truths are half truths.. so there's a point in what you guys are pointing out.

Great post by the way

[Aster]

I wish more type descriptions would be negative, like really negative. It’d give a better look at unhealthy levels of types and would probably be easier for all the crazies on forums to match with. Although people do like to relate to the good descriptions.

[fauxpunk]

My girlfriend is my opposite and that has definitely influenced my relationship with her.
Being completely authentic and acting on my instincts always renders the best results in our communication and getting along.

Not with most other people.

I can talk to her everyday almost the entire day, and I rarely if ever get bored.

The point is, type has a huge impact, I wouldn't be able to have that if she had another dominant function, it seems..

But I agree that getting along does not depend on type alone (I used to fight with her a lot before I realized I could just be totally "myself" and get totally denuded, and that realization made the relation smooth)

But well, most truths are half truths.. so there's a point in what you guys are pointing out.

Great post by the way

I can respect it. Honestly, after I posted this I was in a party with quite a few Se-valuers and it left me feeling pretty drained lol. Then, I hung out with a bunch of Ne-Si users and I felt rejuvenated. I definitely think that there's merit to the system, but not necessarily the idea that you can't work hard to mend things with the people you care about, regardless of type.

[fauxpunk]

I wish more type descriptions would be negative, like really negative. It’d give a better look at unhealthy levels of types and would probably be easier for all the crazies on forums to match with. Although people do like to relate to the good descriptions.

This is basically enneagram, lol. Enneagram is all unhealthiness, yet people still manage to misidentify their types... I think it's mainly an ego problem (which makes sense considering enneagram is egoic).

[Tallmo]

I wish more type descriptions would be negative, like really negative. It’d give a better look at unhealthy levels of types and would probably be easier for all the crazies on forums to match with. Although people do like to relate to the good descriptions.

Jung has plenty of negative stuff in his type descriptions. For example: In his Ni description he said that this type mistakes his intuitions for reality, and can be too dependent (Se inferior). Weak consciousness of bodily existence. Can become an enigma to his immediate circle, can be too subjective, fruitless. There are plenty of positive stuff also of course.

[godslave]

The kind of descriptions people want are not really TIMs/sociotypes descriptions which can be very short and that would be okay. No, what people want are Personality descriptions which are "instances" of real people carriers of a given TIMs/sociotypes. The problem in doing that is that TIMs/sociotypes and personality "traits" (preferably archetypal behaviors) get mixed in the description process. Indeed, we are now adding some biographical contents to the mix and therefore adding a bit of Psychology which constitutes a departure from Typology (stricto sensu).

Now, I agree that real life and to a certain degree fictional examples of TIMs/sociotypes are very important to construct type images. However, we must be very careful and not confound the map with the territory, indeed a TIM/sociotype doesn't necessarily result or produce or is at the origin of a particular personality. There maybe 16 TIMs but there are much much more "personalities types".

[Enters Laughing]

In all of my research, it feels like intertype descriptions are always so negative. In no way do I mean talking about how relationships can struggle is a bad thing, but it feels like every anecdote they add to the end of descriptions goes "X type and X type were consistently frustrated with each other forever and ever until one of them died of tuberculosis. Then the remaining X lived in sorrow and misery for the rest of their life." I mean, it's definitely descriptive and interesting, but I also wouldn't mind hearing about the good parts every now and then, lol.

Some examples of how personality poles could be described with "negative" descriptors at each extreme:

https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...=1#post1581999