Classical Socionic IME Functions simplified (Reference) (Feel free to discuss)

[Muira]

Note; I posted this in the wrong thread


Sources list;
On the Dual Nature of Humanity
Socion
The Meaning of Symbols Used in Socionics

Elements	Short reference	Quotes
Ne	Adherence to a Structure, even if called “System” (Like Typology), Cultural / Spiritual Composition, Underlying Essence & Nature, Physical Skills / Strength, Mental Skills, Abilities, Potential, Internal Content & Structure.	"Potential energy. Through this element the individual receives information about the potential energy of the observed object and subject, their physical and mental abilities." - OTDNOH "Information about potential energy of objects – for example, someone’s physical and psychological abilities and capabilities. This perception provides an ability to understand the structure of objects and phenomena, to figure out their internal content. It determines one’s ability or inability to see real potential forces of the environment." - Socion
Ni	Time, Inner life, Pacing, Hurriedness, Anxiety, Purpose (of Events).	"Relations between processes that happen in sequence – time. Through this element the individual receives information about the temporal relations between processes, events and actions, about whether there is time left, and whether the future is dangerous or safe." -OTDNOH "All processes occur in time, which means they have roots in the past and continue into the future. Time is a relation between events occurring in sequence. This aspect of perception provides information about the sequence of events and people’s actions, their causal interdependence, and people’s own feelings that are caused by this interdependence. " - Socion
Fe	Emotions & Moods, Direct Influence, Sounds / Music, Volume of Voice, Physical Chemistry / Excitation.	"Transformation of potential energy into kinetic energy. Through this element the individual receives information about the object’s excitation and excitability, and people’s moods and emotions." -OTDNOH "Information about processes occurring in objects – primarily emotional processes occurring in people, people’s state of excitation or suppression, and their moods. This aspect of perception provides an ability to e.g. understand what inspires people and what suppresses them. It determines one’s ability or inability to control one’s own emotional state and the emotional states of others. " -Socion
Fi	Tone of Voice, Mutual Influence, Respect (in terms of kindness), Conscience, Honor, Dignity, Love, Desire, Hatred, Dislike, Attraction or Repulsion, Relationships.	"Subjective relation between two objects or subjects – attraction and repulsion. Through this element the individual receives information about the attractive or repulsive force of the objects and subjects, about whether they need each other, about likes and dislikes, love and hatred." -OTDNOH (Note, that subjectivity is within the personal realm of judgement on how someone feels about something or someone regardless of benefit, dislike & like) "This is a subjective relation between two carriers of potential or kinetic energy, showing how much a certain object or subject is attracted or repelled by other objects or subjects. Thanks to this element of IM an individual feels which objects attract them and which repel them. This aspect of perception provides information about whether an object needs another object, about presence or lack of mutual or unilateral needs. " Additional quote to further dispute misconceptions on Fi; "Their accurate assessment of others’ needs allows them to avoid risky collisions while satisfying their own needs. It also creates an ability to manipulate others’ attachment to oneself, and an ability and striving to manipulate others’ ethical feelings and others’ striving to bring these feelings in line with the social ideal. " - "Higher feelings of this kind are called “ethical” due to the fact that the interrelations between people’s needs are mostly regulated by ethical norms. " - Socion
Se	Colors and Aesthetics, Beauty, Clothes, Stylistic Appearances, Money and Finances, Physical Resources, Will or Volition, Presently Available Forces, Kinetic Strength(volition), Material Objects, Names, Scientific Thinking, Goals.	"Kinetic energy. Through this element the individual receives information about the mobilization, willpower, strength and beauty of the observed objects and subjects." - OTDNOH Extra for misconceptions "From The Meaning of Symbols Used in SocionicsThe object’s form The object’s kinetic energy, its readiness to expend its energy. Its external qualities – color, outline, smoothness or roughness of its surface. External mobilization. A person’s will, their ability and readiness to use their will on themself and others. A sense of whether the object is ready to exercise its will, to show its strength, whether the object is aesthetic." "Information about what one could call “kinetic energy” of objects. For example, how externally organized someone is, their physique and energy-related qualities, their ability to successfully exercise their will and use their official position. This perception provides an ability to see how much “kinetic energy” a particular person has and how useful they can be in action. It determines one’s ability or inability to exercise their will in opposition to the will of others, and use their energy against the energy of others." - Socion
Si	Present Situation, Sensations, Well-being, Management of Space, Health, Recreating Sensory Experiences, Hedonism, Background Noise.	"Relations between processes that happen at the same time – space. Through this element the individual receives information about the qualities of the space, i.e. what happens in it and how people in this space feel*." - OTDNOH "We view an object’s internal state as a relation between events that condition each other. Through this element one perceives information about the way processes affect the internal state – the way a person is feeling, and the specific feelings caused by this interdependence. Interaction in space is nothing more than a reflection of one object in another. Objects reflect each other and evoke certain feelings in one another. An individual perceives direct outside information as feelings evoked by things happening around them. For example, a feeling of pain is nothing more than the brain’s reflection of a relation between one’s body and a process taking place in some part of the body and interfering with its functioning. ----- An individual with this type of IM is able to set their sensory aesthetic needs in opposition to the same needs of others. They know how to fight for the fulfilment of said needs, and can shape and refine their own and other people’s aesthetic tastes and habits. They have an ability to impose their understanding of aesthetics and comfortable life on others. " - Socion
Te	The Use of Force, Fighting, Aggression, Physical Activity, Logical Formulae, Rules, Laws, and Instructions, Methods of Action, Efficiency, Work.	"The use of kinetic energy. Through this element the individual receives information about the activity of the object and subject, and their ability to work.' - OTDNOH "Information about actions and deeds, physical activity, the activity of animate and inanimate objects. This perception provides an ability to assess situations one gets exposed to. It determines one’s knowledge of possible methods of action, and an ability or inability to personally come up with such methods. It also determines one’s ability or inability to direct others’ work and to distinguish rational actions from irrational ones." - Socion
Ti	Respect (in the sense of admiration), Fear, Distancing from Fights, Justice, Systems Bound by Laws, Logic, Power, Need, Dependency, Leverage, Hierarchies, Official Positions, Position in Space.	"Objective relations between two objects and their individual properties – the ratio between them, or how one object would measure if the other object was used as a measure. Through this element the individual receives information about the objective ratio between the objects, about their weight, size, value and any other properties that are commensurate." - OTDNOH "The feelings that arise when two objects are being compared based on some objective property, e.g. a sense of distance, weight, volume, value, strength or quality, we classify as logical. These are the feelings of objective evaluation; in certain cases this evaluation contributes to either activation or passivation of the person experiencing said feelings." "One perceives direct information that is obtained through the first signal system as a sense of proportionality or disproportionality of the objects, a sense of balance or imbalance between them, and a sense of understanding or not understanding the advantages one object has over the other. This includes all feelings that arise from objects and phenomena being known or unknown: curiosity, respect, fear, a sense of something being logical or illogical, a sense of power or powerlessness over a certain object. " - Socion

[Still Alive]

Ne "adherence to structures" and "physical strenght" oh boy are we off to a good start already. How am I supposed to take the rest seriously

[Muira]

Ne "adherence to structures" and "physical strenght" oh boy are we off to a good start already. How am I supposed to take the rest seriously

You can take it up to Aushra herself when you die, rejecting the literal dictionary is a whole other level of ignorance, don't you think?

Clearly you go by SHS, not classical socionics.



Do I need a direct translation for you?

Source; Ru, Eng

Содержание объекта .Его потенциальная энергия и внутреннее содержание, внутренние возможности. Программа, заложенная в объекте, его внутренняя структура, любые конкретные способности человека. То, что К. Маркс называл рабочей силой, т.е. суммой физических и психических способностей человека.

Чувство наличия–отсутствия скрытых внутренних способностей, возможностей, дающее способность видеть постоянство или недолговременность какого-то объекта или явления.

My translation, use a translator if you don't trust even my translation; It is potential energy and internal content and capabilities. As such, program is embedded into the object, its internal structure, and specific human abilities. Similar or same contents as labor power, or the additions of a person's mental and physical abilities.

The feeling of an absence or present of hidden abilities, capabilities/capacity, ability to see the immutability or short term of a phenomenon or object.

__________

Aushura set the basics for socionics, but defined socionic elements explicitly enough to be coherent.

[Still Alive]

You can take it up to Aushra herself when you die, rejecting the literal dictionary is a whole other level of ignorance, don't you think?

Clearly you go by SHS, not classical socionics.

No I do not. I do not associate myself with SHS anymore because I find the concept of having another model just counterproductive. I do use DCNH, but define them on my own terms with concepts like height and other physical traits relating to it other than how SHS defines them. Personally, you could say I define them how I want, but I try to base my thoughts on direct observations. I mean defining Ne as strenght just seems stupid to me as most people would probably agree by now that concrete behaviour belongs to the central quadras, especially when paired with the perception of "energy" which also seems rather concrete. I mean you probably type yourself SLE because you think you are strong and direct. I am non competitive and do not care about my influence on society or how I come across to others or what standing I have in groups or whatever but I have learned over the years that this aspect is important to others, that they judge me based on my appearance or standing and not by what I necessarily have to say, which I think is low Se on my part. adhering to structures is at most related to introverted logic but Ne being about that seems weird considering that ILE and IEE are often potrayed as people that jump around all the time not caring about their social standing or whatever. I do appreciate that you make the effort to catalogue all this knowledge, but I can't help but feel like most of the old definitions are flat-out wrong. @Tallmo (or someone else I'm unsure) recently made a similar comment about how Ne is about hidden abilities and capabilities but why would an extroverted element even perceive internal potential that is not visible to the naked eye? that pretty much goes against the definition of what extroversion is.

[Still Alive]

@Muira are the links in your signature with google doc your own?

[Muira]

No I do not. I do not associate myself with SHS anymore because I find the concept of having another model just counterproductive. I do use DCNH, but define them on my own terms with concepts like height and other physical traits relating to it other than how SHS defines them. Personally, you could say I define them how I want, but I try to base my thoughts on direct observations. I mean defining Ne as strenght just seems stupid to me as most people would probably agree by now that concrete behaviour belongs to the central quadras, especially when paired with the perception of "energy" which also seems rather concrete. I mean you probably type yourself SLE because you think you are strong and direct. I am non competitive and do not care about my influence on society or how I come across to others or what standing I have in groups or whatever but I have learned over the years that this aspect is important to others, that they judge me based on my appearance or standing and not by what I necessarily have to say, which I think is low Se on my part. adhering to structures is at most related to introverted logic but Ne being about that seems weird considering that ILE and IEE are often potrayed as people that jump around all the time not caring about their social standing or whatever. I do appreciate that you make the effort to catalogue all this knowledge, but I can't help but feel like most of the old definitions are flat-out wrong. @Tallmo (or someone else I'm unsure) recently made a similar comment about how Ne is about hidden abilities and capabilities but why would an extroverted element even perceive internal potential that is not visible to the naked eye? that pretty much goes against the definition of what extroversion is.

Well Ne is based on capabilities, Se is objective perception, style, beauty, action, etc.


Ne is labeled potential energy because one is concluding the potential strength or capability of something without seeing it in action, likely prediction. Se is seeing its strength play out in time, then gained as experience and non-arguable, while Ne potential is arguable. Ti is more about strategy, leverage, objective relations, a detached and more practical variation of Fi, Ti seeks to bend rules to their advantage, etc.


I type by SLE because it's the most accurate TIM for me, personality type and personality overlap, but regardless.

[Kurt Gabin]

Ne "adherence to structures" and "physical strength" oh boy are we off to a good start already. How am I supposed to take the rest seriously

+1

She clearly had problems with this function and perceived it through Si

[Still Alive]

+1

She clearly had problems with this function and perceived it through Si

I've said it before a couple of times but I think Jung and Aushra were both IEI and they did not describe Ne, Si and Te very well because they are simply the weakest aspects of that type.

I disagree with Ne being about prediction because predicting something is ultimatively tied to the concept of time which is Ni. I think Ne types are very rare in strict hierachies that orient themselves towards concrete goals so you will generally have a difficult time observing them for long. they simply do not play a huge role in society on a collective scale from my point of view.

[Muira]

@Muira are the links in your signature with google doc your own?

Nope!

[anotherperson]

Ne "adherence to structures" and "physical strenght" oh boy are we off to a good start already. How am I supposed to take the rest seriously

idea of NE is a static state of a thing that is not "in the room with us". So physical strength would be like "how much can that guy lift"? but youre not seeing him lifting anything at the moment

internal structure of a thing is also not something you can see just "looking" at it, its a latent state "inside" the object

[Still Alive]

idea of NE is a static state of a thing that is not "in the room with us". So physical strength would be like "how much can that guy lift"?

I would argue that's Se related because you would be able to evaluate what someone can or can't do based on their physical attributes. I don't care about such aspects at all. I have been exercising my entire life and I do not care what other people bench or are otherwise capable of in a physical sense as I don't care about competition. I'm in a dressing room at the gym seeing other people taking photos of their bodies and I'm just rolling my eyes. there's definitely a significant difference between their perception and my own

[Muira]

I would argue that's Se related because you would be able to evaluate what someone can or can't do based on their physical attributes. I don't care about such aspects at all. I have been exercising my entire life and I do not care what other people bench or are otherwise capable of in a physical sense as I don't care about competition. I'm in a dressing room at the gym seeing other people taking photos of their bodies and I'm just rolling my eyes. there's definitely a significant difference between their perception and my own

People usually take photos of their body when it comes to progress, keeping data, etc.

Se still is present moment, within sensation, not mental especially when predicting strength purely on traits provided and when the object is in motion or has been in motion.

A better way to explain is that strength works like force, before running trials, people usually calculate the amount of force, velocity, etc, based on information available other than the kinetic energy. To predict the potential energy within the object, which may play out differently when transferred to kinetic energy. Potential allows to understand what would most likely happen, without risking it by letting it play out(Se).

Your argument is that you base strength on physicality and objectivity, when objectivity is based on extroversion in general with Ti alongside with it.

[necrosebud]

You can take it up to Aushra herself when you die, rejecting the literal dictionary is a whole other level of ignorance, don't you think?

Clearly you go by SHS, not classical socionics.



Do I need a direct translation for you?

Source; Ru, Eng



My translation, use a translator if you don't trust even my translation; It is potential energy and internal content and capabilities. As such, program is embedded into the object, its internal structure, and specific human abilities. Similar or same contents as labor power, or the additions of a person's mental and physical abilities.

The feeling of an absence or present of hidden abilities, capabilities/capacity, ability to see the immutability or short term of a phenomenon or object.

__________

Aushura set the basics for socionics, but defined socionic elements explicitly enough to be coherent.

It doesn’t really read as “adherence to a structure” to me
Ne is inherent in an object; not necessarily that it “adheres” to it
is how I read it

The description does seem very much in line with what Ne is understood to be tho generally in socionics, does not seem disparate