A survey for ISTp people

[Creepy-Guest]

thats for another thread...

deviating from topic soooo much lately in delta!

[XoX]

I have to be obsessed with the military, guns and violence to appreciate peace?

And no...you appriciate peace...i appriciate war...youre the ying to my yang...get it now?

This is ages old thread but I had to reply.

I'm not quite following this balance thing here. In my mind I relate peace to balance. When there is enough underlying imbalance it may result in a war. War is one possible way of trying to bring back the balance. Problem with war is that when fixing one imbalance it may cause unpredictable new imbalances which may result in new wars and so on.

I can appreciate war as a "means" in situations when something is an immediate and serious threat to the balance (i.e. to the peace) and no other way of "balancing" things seem to have enough effect. When this time is at hand is always a subjective evaluation. I think pacifism holds that there is always a non-violent option to bring back the balance but I think this is too idealistic approach.

I could never see war as a desirable condition and appreciate it as an "end". When you have to use war to solve imbalances it implies there exists some fundamental underlying problems that needs to be solved to bring back balance in the long term.

And yes I do think ISTps have some primitive desire to test themselves in the heat of the battle ENTjs and maybe ESTps (and ESFps too) can be fond of battle as a means of conquering and showing their power, strength and superiority. For ISTp battle is just a great sport in itself. They usually don't have the need to conquer anything. Often ISTps go to battle to defend something they value. They are very very rarely the aggressors. Sometimes it may seem like they are but even then they are probably acting defensively if you look close enough. This is why I don't consider ISTps aggressive in the same way as ENTjs and ESTps may be.

I admit that in a hunter-gatherer society I could never be the gatherer...

Addition:
Haha. What if you skip things around and assume that war is the balanced situation and too much imbalance results in a peace. Now that is a scary thought That would mean that in order to achieve a complete worldwide balance everybody would have to be at war. Oops...I think we are almost there

[Kirana]

actually, i can somewhat understand ISTp's thing for warfare. i don't think i'd get along with them much in normal daily life, though - too little in common. but i think in a wartime situation i'd certainly rather fight with an ISTp or have one executing the tactics than most other types.

And yes I do think ISTps have some primitive desire to test themselves in the heat of the battle ENTjs and maybe ESTps (and ESFps too) can be fond of battle as a means of conquering and showing their power, strength and superiority. For ISTp battle is just a great sport in itself. They usually don't have the need to conquer anything. Often ISTps go to battle to defend something they value. They are very very rarely the aggressors. Sometimes it may seem like they are but even then they are probably acting defensively if you look close enough. This is why I don't consider ISTps aggressive in the same way as ENTjs and ESTps may be.

i think this could be seen in how ENTjs, ESFps mentioned above behave in peacetime's version of 'war'. they can be ruthless in corporate strategy and competition. i think ISTps have a thing almost about the physical aspect of war itself - the equipment, the weapons, the actual fighting, the risk, the uncertainty. whereas for ESTps and ESFps, it's about the competition, about dominance, about winning. so they're agressive in any field, via any rules. the battlefield is just one kind of field with one set of rules out of many to them.

[XoX]

i think ISTps have a thing almost about the physical aspect of war itself - the equipment, the weapons, the actual fighting, the risk, the uncertainty. whereas for ESTps and ESFps, it's about the competition, about dominance, about winning. so they're agressive in any field, via any rules. the battlefield is just one kind of field with one set of rules out of many to them.

This is a very good way to put it I think. I can agree to this totally. I very rarely do that, hah Ok I have to play my type and slightly disagree about the role mental aspects play. You said "i think ISTps have a thing almost about the physical aspect of war itself". I'm not sure what is counted as a physical aspect here but for me there is something mentally satisfying about putting yourself against overwhelming odds and coming out as a winner. I agree this is mostly physical for younger ISTps but for older ISTps it is more mental. Whenever you hear someone say "this is impossible, it just can't be done" to ISTp that is like a drug you just can't resist. A worthy challenge.

ISTps sure want to beat the odds. The more probable it seems for them to lose the more their addrenaline starts flowing. A bit like the Japanese going to war with the US in WW2. They probably didn't think they could win but they had not many other choices due to world political situation and the possibility of coming out as a winner excited them as a nation. I sometimes wonder if Japan's national type could be is ISTp (I'm not sure if I believe in national types though )

[mimisor]

I have to be obsessed with the military, guns and violence to appreciate peace?

And no...you appriciate peace...i appriciate war...youre the ying to my yang...get it now?

hmm..wow, just read these lines (suddenly I've remebered a song from Eminem, Crazy in love)

You're the ink to my paper
Where my pen is to my pad
The moral, the very fiber
The whole substance to my rap.
You are my reason for being
The meaning of my existence
If it wasn't for you
I would never be able to spit this
As intense I do and the irony
Is you rely on me as much
as I rely on you to inspire me like you do.
You provide me the lighter fluid to fuel my fire
You're my entire supply
Gas, the match, the igniter.
The only way that I am able to stay so stable
Is you're the legs to my table
If you were to break I'd fall on my face.
But I'm always going to make you feel
I don't need you as much as I really need you
So you don't use it to your advantage.
But you're essential to me
You're the air I breathe
I believe if you ever leave me
I'd probably have no reason to be.
You are the Kim to my Marshall
You're the Slim to my Shady
The Dre to my Eminem
The Elaina to my Hailey.
You are the word I am looking for when
I'm trying to describe how I feel inside
And the right one just won't come to my mind.
You're like the pillar that props me up
The beam that supports me
The bitch who never took half,
The wife who never divorced me.
You're like the root to my evil
You let my devil come out me
You let me beat the shit out you
Before you beat the shit out me.


I can provide the song if anyone interested :wink:

[FDG]

And yes I do think ISTps have some primitive desire to test themselves in the heat of the battle ENTjs and maybe ESTps (and ESFps too) can be fond of battle as a means of conquering and showing their power, strength and superiority. For ISTp battle is just a great sport in itself. They usually don't have the need to conquer anything. Often ISTps go to battle to defend something they value. They are very very rarely the aggressors. Sometimes it may seem like they are but even then they are probably acting defensively if you look close enough. This is why I don't consider ISTps aggressive in the same way as ENTjs and ESTps may be.

I don't get how ENTjs are seen as the epitome of aggressivity. Do you want to get hurt???uh????





Seriously though, this is a common misconception due to the flawed MBTI description.

[Creepy-pokeball]

not epitome if that is what you thought I meant in the other thread but rather "one of the more aggresive variables" in contrast to other temperaments in consideration of likelihood across the spectrum for said "more aggressive variables." I hope that made sense :x

I should have just said that Ive never encountered a meek ENTj :wink:

[mimisor]

yes they are. ENTjs have an agressive temperament. I know cause I live with one in my house. It's my brother.

[science as magic]

I don't get how ENTjs are seen as the epitome of aggressivity.

think of it more like pushy with their opinions

[mimisor]

thanks, Pedro, that's what I meant too, but I couldn't find the right word

[universal]

yes they are. ENTjs have an agressive temperament. I know cause I live with one in my house. It's my brother.

I'm not aggressive, I can be ruthless. ENTJ need good morals because of this I think.

[Expat]

I don't get how ENTjs are seen as the epitome of aggressivity.

think of it more like pushy with their opinions

Exactly.

However, I realize how that can appear aggressive to types with weak - aggressive in the "what a jerk, does he think he knows it all?" way.

not epitome if that is what you thought I meant in the other thread but rather "one of the more aggresive variables" in contrast to other temperaments in consideration of likelihood across the spectrum for said "more aggressive variables." I hope that made sense :x

I should have just said that Ive never encountered a meek ENTj

Fair enough, but it's not the sort of aggressivenes found in sheer drive -- it's more about knowing what to do and when to do it, and at what speed, towards efficiency.

[Creepy-pokeball]

What happens when those are not met or followed through with, tho ^_^

[Expat]

Ok, fair enough --

But have you noticed how all ENTjs here dislike being seen as "aggressive" in the way? That's our role function speaking.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Yup.

[schrödinger's cat]

I don't get how ENTjs are seen as the epitome of aggressivity.

think of it more like pushy with their opinions

You're allowed your own opinion, provided you can defend it with the sort of arguments they recognize as valid arguments. That's the tricky bit. I like spending time with my ENTJ friend, but I make sure beforehand that I've had enough sleep and a cup of extra strong coffee. :wink:

[Expat]

We recognize any valid argument as valid.

[schrödinger's cat]

Expat, that is exactly what I was saying! Would you accept any of the following sentences as valid arguments? I've got a hunch it's the sort of thing that makes an ENTJ stare ("beam me up, Scotty, there's no intelligent life form down here").

"But it's how we've always done things. Better stick with the tested and tried."
"It's a hunch I have."
"I dislike doing it, that's all."
"I want it that way and we'll do it that way, end of story."
"Well, I can't explain why, but I just know that it's like that."
"I've read it somewhere."
"[Cite authority figure], and if he says it, then, well, he's probably right."

[Expat]

Expat, that is exactly what I was saying! Would you accept any of the following sentences as valid arguments? I've got a hunch it's the sort of thing that makes an ENTJ stare ("beam me up, Scotty, there's no intelligent life form down here").

Not entirely - -


"But it's how we've always done things. Better stick with the tested and tried." Invalid as it stands

"It's a hunch I have." Actually an ENTj would listen to that but ask, "right -- please elaborate"

"I dislike doing it, that's all." Valid for leisure, invalid for accomplishing something

"I want it that way and we'll do it that way, end of story." Totally invalid as it stands

"Well, I can't explain why, but I just know that it's like that." If you can't explain it, you don't know it

"I've read it somewhere." Could be valid, if better supported

"[Cite authority figure], and if he says it, then, well, he's probably right." [/quote] Depends on the argument and authority figure, but overall weak

[schrödinger's cat]

...QED. :wink:

[mimisor]

gosh, that was funny Lol Lol

[XoX]

So this is somekind of ENFp/ENTj conspiracy to hijack this thread, eh?

[universal]

So this is somekind of ENFp/ENTj conspiracy to hijack this thread, eh?

It's a hunch I have and well, I can't explain why, but I just know that it's like that. We dislike doing it.

Now I cannot imagine any ENTJ ever talking like that, they would have to surrender their ENTJ membership on the spot!

But yes, a new thread seems decent enough

[XoX]

And no...you appriciate peace...i appriciate war...youre the ying to my yang...get it now?

The yin-yang analogy of duality is not too far from the truth actually. I just don't think it is supposed to work like described above. "Peace" and "War" are not functions or concepts related to socionics. Just like the other dual can't be described as "Rich" and the other "Poor", "Smart" and "Dumb" etc.

Addition: Ok this post is really only stating the obvious but I got excited about yin and yang
Addition: I'm talking about the yin and yang of functions. Added this since I don't understand the comment below

[Joy]

you scare me

[XoX]

you scare me

haha, why? You are not my yang so no worries And how can I be scary

[Joy]

My subtype is soft and sensual Si.
I am a Natural Born Pillow Fighter.

I don't even know what to say sorry, I'll stop whining now.

[XoX]

My subtype is soft and sensual Si.
I am a Natural Born Pillow Fighter.

I don't even know what to say sorry, I'll stop whining now.

*sigh* I might have to figure out a better theme now you made me feel insecure about my artistic taste.
Take that and tremble http://www.st-columbas.org.uk/central/couple.jpg

[Joy]

*sigh* I might have to figure out a better theme now you made me feel insecure about my artistic taste.

nnnooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oo

[playerof604]

1. What is your opinion on all extroverted types in general?
can get really annoying when I just want some peace and quiet(omg non-stop yak), but generally speaking fun to be around.

2. If someone made small talk with you, how (un)comfortable would you be?
depends on my mood. Although I hate it when people start some small talk... and work their way into asking something. Waste of my time. Why not ask for the thing directly in the first place?

3. Would you rather that someone else initiate conversation, or would you rather do the initiating?
Someone else.

4. How long does it usually take for you to get comfortable with a new person? Especially if they are the opposite gender.
Long.

5. Do you sometimes with that you were a different type?
NO WAY.

6. How happy are you with yourself?
Very.

7. What makes you enjoy a conversation?
Talking about something I'm interested in with someone I'm interested in knowing more about.

8. Are you absolutely positive that you're ISTp? Does this page apply to you accurately?
Yes.

9. Any other tips for interacting with your type?
... don't be overly-sensitive. Don't hurt us. Let us be. Don't try to change us. Do what we say (ie. leave us alone). BELIEVE what we say (when we say we're fine, we're fine. When we say we'll think about it, we'll think about it.). STOP REPEATING YOURSELF (if we answered we heard it the first time.).

[Rocky]

5. Do you sometimes with that you were a different type?
NO WAY.

6. How happy are you with yourself?
Very.

... I have noticed that ISTPs are usually very happy, and very sure of, ourselves... not sure why...

9. Any other tips for interacting with your type?
... don't be overly-sensitive. Don't hurt us. Let us be. Don't try to change us. Do what we say (ie. leave us alone). BELIEVE what we say (when we say we're fine, we're fine. When we say we'll think about it, we'll think about it.). STOP REPEATING YOURSELF (if we answered we heard it the first time.).

LOL, I think that all the time.

[playerof604]

... I have noticed that ISTPs are usually very happy and very sure of ourselves... not sure why...

9. Any other tips for interacting with your type?
... don't be overly-sensitive. Don't hurt us. Let us be. Don't try to change us. Do what we say (ie. leave us alone). BELIEVE what we say (when we say we're fine, we're fine. When we say we'll think about it, we'll think about it.). STOP REPEATING YOURSELF (if we answered we heard it the first time.).

LOL, I think that all the time.

Great minds think alike.. XP

[napalm]

1. What is your opinion on all extroverted types in general?

Depends on the extrovert. I really, really, really, really like outgoing people, as they tend to carry the conversation and make me feel more comfortable as I don't feel put on the spot to come up with BS small talk. On the other hand, extroverts that are pushy, invade my personal space, get way to personal way too quickly, start harping on my for being so introverted, or blab just for the sake of filling up silences get on my nerves. Seriously on my nerves.

2. If someone made small talk with you, how (un)comfortable would you be?

Not very. Just mostly bored. Unless she was really cute. Then I'd probably just blush a lot.

3. Would you rather that someone else initiate conversation, or would you rather do the initiating?

I'd rather someone else did the initiating. Rejection fear stuff...

4. How long does it usually take for you to get comfortable with a new person? Especially if they are the opposite gender.

Depends on their personality. If they're outgoing and can draw me out of my shell without making me feel threatened I am SO there. If it's a woman it depends on how attracted I am to her, her personality type, and how badly I don't want to fuck things up.

5. Do you sometimes with that you were a different type?

No, I'm happy being an ISTp. I just wish I were a more outgoing ISTp.

6. How happy are you with yourself?

Not very. I'm pretty much convinced that I'm doomed when it comes to interpersonal relationships, especially intimate relationships with the opposite sex. I'm 29, divorced, hurt, skittish, and I honestly don't have many opportunities to meet eligible women. When I *do* meet women that meet the right criteria, they generally have no interest in me as women don't care for the quiet guy in the corner watching everyone else. Meeting the right person is a numbers game, and honestly my numbers are pathetic. I haven't had a date since my ex-wife and I split up (11 months ago), and the only two dates I've had lined up both blew me off/stood me up. Contradictory advice like "just be more outgoing/just be yourself" make no sense to me, and I'm honestly sick and tired of hearing platitudes like "there's someone for everyone" and "don't worry, you'll meet the right one when you least expect it; so stop looking and she'll come to you". Yeah right. Whatever.

7. What makes you enjoy a conversation?

Fun/entertaining. Generally that happens with people that don't seem to put a lot of pressure and expectations on me.

8. Are you absolutely positive that you're ISTp? Does this page apply to you accurately?

Positive. That page describes me too a tee, especially the parts about the pessimism, depression and despondency, people thinking I'm cold and indifferent (I can't tell you how many times I've heard secondhand, and sometimes firsthand, how many people think I'm a jerk or a snob because I'm not some kind of bubbly in your face extrovert ), and the sensitivity towards lack of positive emotions.

9. Any other tips for interacting with your type?

Please do? We're dying over here.




I think life as a seriously introverted ISTp male is kinda tough. Generally the way our culture works the guy is expected to make all the first moves, and if you don't... we'll just tough luck for you, buddy. Have fun being lonely. I know it probably sounds stupid and pathetic to non-ISTp's and ISTp females.

I think my life would be orders of magnitude better if I could get a couple of hugs a day from someone I trusted.

Blah.

[jessica129]

I have not responded?! pft!

1. What is your opinion on all extroverted types in general?

Some can be over the top. The 'in your face' ones that are always asking you 'OH MY GOD, WHAT'S WRONG, YOU'RE NOT TALKING, OH MY GODDDDD'. Those types need to leave me alone asap. I think most extroverts can be stereotyped just as us introverts get stereotyped and it's usually inaccurate. Without the extroverts, I'd probobly never have a date. I love how they're aggressive and can get you up and out of your slump. But sometimes it's too much and I get too burnt out being around them. I just don't know where they get their energy from. I do admire it, however.

2. If someone made small talk with you, how (un)comfortable would you be?

Mildy uncomfortable. For all my life, I've been told how unsociable I am and how I basically suck at conversation. I'm very self conscious when a stranger approaches me...constantly trying to be overly enthusiastic just so they don't come down with the 'what's wrong with you' comment I'm so used to. So basically, conversations are a source of stress for me but i realize it's just a necessary part of life so i deal with it.

3. Would you rather that someone else initiate conversation, or would you rather do the initiating?

Someone else. Rarely if ever do i start a conversation. Again, too self conscious i'm being 'boring'.

4. How long does it usually take for you to get comfortable with a new person? Especially if they are the opposite gender.

A LONG, LONG time. I'm a lot more comfortable with the opposite sex, though. They don't seem as judgemental as women.

5. Do you sometimes with that you were a different type?

I wish I had more energy to be around people so i guess that's a yes. ESTP's are my idols, for sure ; )

6. How happy are you with yourself?

Right now, I'm going to say not happy at all. It's just a rough period and my confidence is at an all time low due to issues i've wrote about here earlier. But i always think I could be a better version of myself. I've always felt that way.

7. What makes you enjoy a conversation?

Alcohol.

8. Are you absolutely positive that you're ISTp? Does this page apply to you accurately?

The negative description fits me perfectly.

9. Any other tips for interacting with your type?

Above all, have patience. Realize that our reserve is not intended as coldness. Take the time to get to know before judging. Please, please don't force emotions out of ISTP's and condemn them for lack of response. It's hell.

Ah, that's a huge post. I'm sorry

[mikemex]

But it really seems as if ISTps generally have this huge fascination with violence and military and it seems as if ENFps absolutey cannot relate to this...

I have it too and I'm ENFp. I know all small arms from handguns to machineguns, submachineguns and assault rifles. I can tell you, a 5.56x45 cartridge develops about 1750 joules from a 20 inch (51 cm) barrel. That the optimum rifling twist for the SS109 lead core with steel penetrator 5.56x45 projectile is one turn in 8 inches (20 cm). That the fragmentation range for that projectile is 200 meters. That the body armor requiered to defeat it is III-A with III plates...

Military stuff fascinates me so much that I've invented my own firearm system and other military technologies.

It must be something of gender roles.

[Gilly]

I have not responded?! pft!

1. What is your opinion on all extroverted types in general?

Some can be over the top. The 'in your face' ones that are always asking you 'OH MY GOD, WHAT'S WRONG, YOU'RE NOT TALKING, OH MY GODDDDD'. Those types need to leave me alone asap. I think most extroverts can be stereotyped just as us introverts get stereotyped and it's usually inaccurate. Without the extroverts, I'd probobly never have a date. I love how they're aggressive and can get you up and out of your slump. But sometimes it's too much and I get too burnt out being around them. I just don't know where they get their energy from. I do admire it, however.

2. If someone made small talk with you, how (un)comfortable would you be?

Mildy uncomfortable. For all my life, I've been told how unsociable I am and how I basically suck at conversation. I'm very self conscious when a stranger approaches me...constantly trying to be overly enthusiastic just so they don't come down with the 'what's wrong with you' comment I'm so used to. So basically, conversations are a source of stress for me but i realize it's just a necessary part of life so i deal with it.

3. Would you rather that someone else initiate conversation, or would you rather do the initiating?

Someone else. Rarely if ever do i start a conversation. Again, too self conscious i'm being 'boring'.

4. How long does it usually take for you to get comfortable with a new person? Especially if they are the opposite gender.

A LONG, LONG time. I'm a lot more comfortable with the opposite sex, though. They don't seem as judgemental as women.

5. Do you sometimes with that you were a different type?

I wish I had more energy to be around people so i guess that's a yes. ESTP's are my idols, for sure ; )

6. How happy are you with yourself?

Right now, I'm going to say not happy at all. It's just a rough period and my confidence is at an all time low due to issues i've wrote about here earlier. But i always think I could be a better version of myself. I've always felt that way.

7. What makes you enjoy a conversation?

Alcohol.

8. Are you absolutely positive that you're ISTp? Does this page apply to you accurately?

The negative description fits me perfectly.

9. Any other tips for interacting with your type?

Above all, have patience. Realize that our reserve is not intended as coldness. Take the time to get to know before judging. Please, please don't force emotions out of ISTP's and condemn them for lack of response. It's hell.

Ah, that's a huge post. I'm sorry

uhaderagaeg[

Whenever you post I have this huge urge to just like...get you to open up


and i dont just mean talking :wink:



[internal monologue] Am I hitting on an internet stranger? *shakes head vigorously* [/internal monologue]

[mikemex]

* Me gives Gilligan a can opener.

[Gilly]

* Me gives Gilligan a can opener.

...so it's like that, eh?

[olduser]

1. What is your opinion on all extroverted types in general?
Enjoy, except when they are rude, or pushy.

2. If someone made small talk with you, how (un)comfortable would you be?
Well, depends on how long it takes me to find an excuse to leave.

3. Would you rather that someone else initiate conversation, or would you rather do the initiating?
someone else

4. How long does it usually take for you to get comfortable with a new person? Especially if they are the opposite gender.
Not really that long. If they are charming and friendly I really don't have problems being friends.

5. Do you sometimes with that you were a different type?
I wish i was infp so i could woo you and get married. You could go into business and i'll take care of the kids. hows it sound, sweetiepie?

6. How happy are you with yourself?
oh unbelievably satisfied with myself. there's a glow on my face and generally at least one corner of my mouth is twisted into a smile.

7. What makes you enjoy a conversation?
dunno. Someone entertaining.

8. Are you absolutely positive that you're ISTp? Does this page apply to you accurately?
No. I consider ISTj and INTp very serious possibilities.

9. Any other tips for interacting with your type?
play it by ear. No drama.

[stefana]

..........