Israeli–Palestinian war (2023)

[Not A Communist Shill]

Israel and Palestine are essentially at war again after Hamas fired 5000+ rockets in terrorist attacks on civilian targets.

A few Muslim countries in recent years have normalized relations with Israel, with Saudi Arabia seeming likely soon also. Hamas is supposed to be a proxy for Iran and possibly other nations.

Recently there's also been Serbian agitation on the Kosovo border, and a conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia in Nagorno-Karabakh: some or all of these conflicts may have been induced somewhat by the weakening or Russian influence or Russia wishing to cause a diversion.

These terrorist attacks are one day after the 50th anniversary of the Yom Kippur War, which was also a surprise attack, although Israel probably won't have to defeat a sizable coalition this time.

[necrosebud]

[Chae]

it's sad this reignited, what to even say anymore. in addition, i saw few nuanced takes around on the topic, simply concerning how people reacted, especially on social media. all i know is, this endless mutual craze truly must end once and for all man...

[Sol]

I'm sure that USA propaganda lies in many sides, having the experinece with how it describes RF - USA war (since 2014).

[idol]

Hopefully palestiania will come to its pathetic end. Go jews !

[Not A Communist Shill]

It seems impossible for me to see a future for Palestine now. The illegal encroachment of Israeli settlements into Palestinian territory made it far more difficult by fragmenting their land, and Hamas overthrew Palestine's democracy from what I recall. It's pretty much always been a failed state. I can only hope the UN runs it as a protectorate or that Israel integrates Palestinians into a wider Israeli state in which they have more rights than in the countries of their Arab peers as bizarre as that sounds. I don't like the idea of Israel annexing Palestine in sch a way, but the reality is that the only way they can stop large-scale terrorist attacks on civilians backed by states that want Israel abolished as a country is to enforce martial law in Palestine at least to begin with.

[Metamorph]

Edward Said’s Double Vision | The Point Magazine

My friend Edward | Christopher Hitchens | The Guardian

[Not A Communist Shill]

[Not A Communist Shill]

[Northstar]

I'm sure that USA propaganda lies in many sides, having the experinece with how it describes RF - USA war (since 2014).

It’s funny how russians readily accuse others of propaganda when the whole culture is based on lying. Basically projection.

[Not A Communist Shill]

[necrosebud]

[Adam Strange]

Hamas' attack on Israel looks like it must have involved hundreds, if not thousands, of people, months of planning, and the import of huge amounts of weapons and materials.

Hamas is said to be one of the most infiltrated (by Israeli intelligence) organizations in the world.

How could Israeli intelligence miss this?

By pure coincidence, the right-wing Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, is in deep political trouble with Israel's judiciary and police. My ILE friend in Israel said last week (before the Hamas attacks) that he thinks Netanyahu is going to jail.

I don't want to say that Netanyahu did a Putin, whose popularity rose in 1999 after "someone" (read that as "Putin") bombed a series of apartment buildings in Russia, but to me, it looks bad.

[necrosebud]

https://israelpalestine.liveuamap.com/

[godslave]

Hamas is said to be one of the most infiltrated (by Israeli intelligence) organizations in the world.

How could Israeli intelligence miss this?

Double agents and too much relying on modern technologies .

[godslave]

Quite frankly that whole region is more the cursed land than the Holly land as history has proven it over and over throughout centuries. Too much death, suffering and pain.. Nothing can stop fanatics and what we have seen is nothing less than barbary, human beings devoid of humanity, hate made flesh. People with nothing to loose but their lives utterly brainwashed by death cult like organisations of terror, psychopaths factories.

There is no doubt that what is about to happen in the Middle East is unprecedented.

[xerx]

Hamas is said to be one of the most infiltrated (by Israeli intelligence) organizations in the world.

How could Israeli intelligence miss this?

I'm also wondering about this. The Gaza strip is one of the most heavily surveilled locations on Earth; entry of goods into it is also highly controlled due to the blockade.

[Metamorph]

Edward Said · The Importance of Being Unfaithful to Wagner · LRB 11 February 1993

[Metamorph]

Quite frankly that whole region is the more the cursed land than the Holly land as history has proven it over and over throughout centuries. Too much death, suffering and pain.. Nothing can stop fanatics and what we have seen is nothing less than barbary, human beings devoid of humanity, hate made flesh. People with nothing to loose but their lives utterly brainwashed by death cult like organisations of terror, psychopaths factories.

There is no doubt that what is about to happen in the Middle East is unprecedented.

Haavara Agreement - Wikipedia

I tend to be strongly inclined to believe that Hı̇tler sent the Jews to Israel because he hated them and knew how bad being around the Palestinians would be for them, probably at the direction of Dietrich Eckhart and other experts within the Nazi Party who knew more about this kind of thing than him. According to Wikipedia the main Nazi Zionist (yes, this was a thing) was Leopold von Mildenstein.

[Sol]

Will Israelian army significantly enter to Syria or Lebanon during 12 monthes? [guess]

yes, seems

The situation reminds an organised provocation. Arised army force of USA and its suborderie territory Israel is not appropriate to the said now task.

[Not A Communist Shill]

Egyptian intelligence official says Israel ignored repeated warnings of ‘something big’

[The Reality Denialist]

Egyptian intelligence official says Israel ignored repeated warnings of ‘something big’

Why Stalin Didn't React

LOL

[Muira]

My country's censorship won't allow me to see this. Could you summarize it?

[kuno]

My country's censorship won't allow me to see this. Could you summarize it?

I think the video is supposedly private? I can't see it either... Youtube tells me it's unavailable, and private.

Or was it actually censored?! Omg...

[Muira]

Egyptian intelligence official says Israel ignored repeated warnings of ‘something big’

I mean with the unfair treatment of the Palestinians, restricting their access to clean water and electricity, harsh treatment, etc. It's not really a religious war, but rather Zionists vs Muslims + supporting Jews.


I have met Israelite Jews that admit this is more about oppressing an entire ethnic group than Muslims in general, but of course the stigmatization of being anything that is associated with the native arabs is there.


It makes more sense once you see the treatment that Palestinians were going through, and that the conflict happened because the natives "hated" the Jews.

[Muira]

I think the video is supposedly private? I can't see it either... Youtube tells me it's unavailable, and private.

Or was it actually censored?! Omg...

Says not available in my country, and I'm in the US

[Not A Communist Shill]

I mean with the unfair treatment of the Palestinians, restricting their access to clean water and electricity, harsh treatment, etc. It's not really a religious war, but rather Zionists vs Muslims + supporting Jews.


I have met Israelite Jews that admit this is more about oppressing an entire ethnic group than Muslims in general, but of course the stigmatization of being anything that is associated with the native arabs is there.


It makes more sense once you see the treatment that Palestinians were going through, and that the conflict happened because the natives "hated" the Jews.

Most Muslim countries are opposed to Hamas' terrorism, or have remained silent.

Egypt has long closed its border with the Gaza Strip, even flooded tunnels to prevent Palestinians crossing the border. They've only strengthened security now.

The Palestinians were repeatedly offered good deals for peace, but the Arabs only went and repeatedly attacked Israel (1948, 1967, 1973, 2023 etc.).

Polling in the past has shown that the Palestinians want a peace deal to be signed with Israel, and the polling in Israel has shown that Israelis also want a peace deal to be signed. Unfortunately, this has never been resolved for various reasons. More recently, because Hamas overthrew democracy in Palestine and brutalized the Palestinians further. When you're a failed state with a hotbed of terrorists who want destroy a neighbouring country, it's not especially surprising when that country puts up security on its borders. Even with the heavy security, Hamas still managed to have thousands of missiles.

The Gaza Strip was occupied by Egypt for many years, and the West Bank was occupied by Jordan for many years after past wars with Israel. If you think that Muslims are one block that actually give a shit about Palestinians rather than treat it as an issue to justify hatred of Israel and the West, and antisemitism generally (antisemitism amongst Muslims worldwide is much higher compared to the general average, and the general average is bad enough), then you are deluding yourself. The Muslim Ottomans occupied Palestine for centuries too, they never gave Palestinians autonomy. Indeed, democracy is uncommon in Muslim countries, and they generally have very poor human rights records. Muslims in Israel easily have more rights that Jews have in most Arab countries: and most probably, have more rights than Muslims do too.

[Not A Communist Shill]

[necrosebud]

My country's censorship won't allow me to see this. Could you summarize it?

looks like it has been made private since I shared it

it was by ABC news and sharing some clips/descriptions of what people (civilians and soldiers) were being put through, but it wasn't blatantly graphic, they did blur things out

maybe youtube censored it?

[Muira]

Most Muslim countries are opposed to Hamas' terrorism, or have remained silent.

Egypt has long closed its border with the Gaza Strip, even flooded tunnels to prevent Palestinians crossing the border. They've only strengthened security now.

The Palestinians were repeatedly offered good deals for peace, but the Arabs only went and repeatedly attacked Israel (1948, 1967, 1973, 2023 etc.).

Polling in the past has shown that the Palestinians want a peace deal to be signed with Israel, and the polling in Israel has shown that Israelis also want a peace deal to be signed. Unfortunately, this has never been resolved for various reasons. More recently, because Hamas overthrew democracy in Palestine and brutalized the Palestinians further. When you're a failed state with a hotbed of terrorists who want destroy a neighbouring country, it's not especially surprising when that country puts up security on its borders. Even with the heavy security, Hamas still managed to have thousands of missiles.

The Gaza Strip was occupied by Egypt for many years, and the West Bank was occupied by Jordan for many years after past wars with Israel. If you think that Muslims are one block that actually give a shit about Palestinians rather than treat it as an issue to justify hatred of Israel and the West, and antisemitism generally (antisemitism amongst Muslims worldwide is much higher compared to the general average, and the general average is bad enough), then you are deluding yourself.

Proves my point that it is not really a religious but ideological war, if it was Jews vs. Muslims, most Muslims would have gotten involves directly or indirectly around the borders. A lot of Jews don't support Israel's side, but Zionists do. It's Muslim extremists v. Zionists.

But again, have you even taken into consideration for the hate that the Middle East has for anything western? Where did it stem from? The Cold War? How the United States invaded Middle Eastern countries? How Obama funded Isis and has killed millions of innocent women, children, (etc) in the Middle East? How Biden just left guns over for the Taliban to take?

But again the Middle East wouldn't be as technologically developed if we hadn't given them our recent technology, returning the favor from the Middle Ages.

We've fucked up a lot of the Middle East still. So of course extremist groups will rise up, as people look for radical opinions and solution in situations of war. They care jackshit about what they actually preach, and take a lot of things into the greatest extreme.

If the US didn't interfere with the Middle East, and left them to resolve their own issues, would've they would have been much better off?

The Muslim Ottomans occupied Palestine for centuries too, they never gave Palestinians autonomy. Indeed, democracy is uncommon in Muslim countries, and they generally have very poor human rights records. Muslims in Israel easily have more rights that Jews have in most Arab countries: and most probably, have more rights than Muslims do too.

To today's standards, very much. But historically speaking, they were somewhat better than a lot of places. History is just repeating itself, Israel is just taking over Palestine just like how the ottomans have, however the Ottomans did allow conquered natives to be interpreted into their society instead of being left as “outcasts.”

So what if one side is democratic and the other side isn't? That doesn't change the fact that Israel has passed discriminatory laws and policies against Palestinians regardless of religion, and partook in the killing and degradation of Palestinian communities. War restricts the intellect of the common public and desensitizes them, that's just human behavior in a place full of danger.

In the end, land will always be stolen, that's not my concern, but the treatment of Palestinians in Israel. This isn't one-sided, and I can't really tell what side you are on.

But again, in a 100 years, we will be deemed as monsters, just like how we view people as monsters or cruel 100 years ago compared to our standard of judgement.

[Muira]

looks like it has been made private since I shared it

it was by ABC news and sharing some clips/descriptions of what people (civilians and soldiers) were being put through, but it wasn't blatantly graphic, they did blur things out

maybe youtube censored it?

It isn't available in my country, that's what it says, so both.

Sad, what is it that don't want us to see?

[Not A Communist Shill]

Proves my point that it is not really a religious but ideological war, if it was Jews vs. Muslims, most Muslims would have gotten involves directly or indirectly around the borders. A lot of Jews don't support Israel's side, but Zionists do. It's Muslim extremists v. Zionists.

But again, have you even taken into consideration for the hate that the Middle East has for anything western? Where did it stem from? The Cold War? How the United States invaded Middle Eastern countries? How Obama funded Isis and has killed millions of innocent women, children, (etc) in the Middle East? How Biden just left guns over for the Taliban to take?

But again the Middle East wouldn't be as technologically developed if we hadn't given them our recent technology, returning the favor from the Middle Ages.

We've fucked up a lot of the Middle East still. So of course extremist groups will rise up, as people look for radical opinions and solution in situations of war. They care jackshit about what they actually preach, and take a lot of things into the greatest extreme.

If the US didn't interfere with the Middle East, and left them to resolve their own issues, would've they would have been much better off?




To today's standards, very much. But historically speaking, they were somewhat better than a lot of places. History is just repeating itself, Israel is just taking over Palestine just like how the ottomans have, however the Ottomans did allow conquered natives to be interpreted into their society instead of being left as “outcasts.”

So what if one side is democratic and the other side isn't? That doesn't change the fact that Israel has passed discriminatory laws and policies against Palestinians regardless of religion, and partook in the killing and degradation of Palestinian communities. War restricts the intellect of the common public and desensitizes them, that's just human behavior in a place full of danger.

In the end, land will always be stolen, that's not my concern, but the treatment of Palestinians in Israel. This isn't one-sided, and I can't really tell what side you are on.

But again, in a 100 years, we will be deemed as monsters, just like how we view people as monsters or cruel 100 years ago compared to our standard of judgement.

Have you considered why the West doesn't have more hatred for Muslims for 14 centuries of invasions in the West and elsewhere?

I just think that Muslims who have the problem you describe tend to be alienated people in the West who feel left out of wider society, or people in "Muslim" countries with limited agency due to living in countries that only permit limited agency for its citizens and wants an external bogeyman to blame all their problems on rather than their own government, in order to rally the country behind its leaders.

Muslims in the region claim they don't want "the West" getting involved there, but then when another atrocity happens, Muslim countries do very little to actually address the problem themselves for the better. And...all the while, Iran and Saudi Arabia are fighting proxy wars with each other, Islamic terrorists fuck up countries around the globe:
Insurgency in the Maghreb (2002–present)
October 2023 Gaza−Israel conflict
Afghan conflict
Somali Civil War
Islamic State insurgency in Iraq (2017–present)
Boko Haram insurgency
Syrian civil war
Yemeni civil war (2014–present)

Just some of the ongoing incidents. List of ongoing armed conflicts

Even with the West's involvement in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the overwhelming majority of the death toll was caused by Muslim terrorists.

Many of these have killed many times more people in 10 years or so than have been killed in the Arab–Israeli conflict (from ALL sides - I won't go into who was responsible for the deaths here), yet I never hear Muslims ever mentioning them. I may occasionally here them mention China's treatment of Muslims in China, although Western countries are far more vocally opposed to this than Muslim countries. The reason that Muslims go on about Israel and Zionists and Jews so much is significantly due to antisemitism (which is significantly down to its historic dogma, as well as down to general libels against the Jews, as well as general dissatisfaction with their situation in life). Similarly, when non-Muslims in the West criticise Israel, "Zionists", and generally rage against Jews, it's usually in large part down to conscious or unconscious antisemitism - if they address worse atrocities with the same or stronger vigour, then maybe I'll regard them as sincere. By unconscious, I mean that they may be part of a political party or group that spouts this stuff, and they adopt those positions often without appreciate how skewed they're being by doing so. Often they're socialist or Communist groups, and often they also rage against "the West" and "the USA" generally, while being pro-Russia or even pro-Soviet (the sort of people who go on parades with images of Stalin).

An example of hypocrisy and double-standards:

[Not A Communist Shill]

[Metamorph]

I just think that Muslims who have the problem you describe tend to be alienated people in the West who feel left out of wider society, or people in "Muslim" countries with limited agency due to living in countries that only permit limited agency for its citizens and wants an external bogeyman to blame all their problems on rather than their own government, in order to rally the country behind its leaders.

Psychology of Military-Industrial Complex (the16types.info)

Muslims in the region claim they don't want "the West" getting involved there, but then when another atrocity happens, Muslim countries do very little to actually address the problem themselves for the better. And...all the while, Iran and Saudi Arabia are fighting proxy wars with each other, Islamic terrorists fuck up countries around the globe:

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

[necrosebud]

It isn't available in my country, that's what it says, so both.

Sad, what is it that don't want us to see?

interesting, I’m in the US as well and to me it just says “private”

[godslave]

This is an excellent documentary for those who want to be reminded or learn about where it all comes from in terms of geopolitical context.

[FreelancePoliceman]

Something happens to Israel and people complain about "terrorism." The rest of the time it's business as usual.

[Squirrel]

In Arab countries government ≠ people in the country

Even if some Arab countries establish friendship and peace treaties with Israel, this doesn't mean that the people agree

Nearly 95% of the Arab people - at least - oppose Israel and support Palestine , this is inherited in the collective consciousness of Arabs

Most Arab governments are corrupt, and their people need to rise again and change their mentalities before they reach the stage where they solve their problems and choose rulers and/or parliament representatives who will actually represent them

The question of Palestine, for both Palestinians and Arabs, is a legal and cultural issue , the Zionists came from all over the world to own a land that was not theirs in the first place, land isn't the only thing they stole but also food ( 1,2,3 ) and clothes ( some originally Palestinian clothing was registered Internationally as Israeli.) in order to create forged civilizational/cultural identity and history for themselves , they also committed massacres and daisplaced the Palestinian from their villages ( such as Tantura and Deir Yassin)

The only" religious " part of the issue as far as I know is the Islamic-Jewish dispute over Al-Aqsa Mosque, where the Muslims consider it its own , while the Zionists think that the Temple of Solomon might be underneath it , except that, all Palestinians who oppose Israel suffer regardless of their religion: Muslims Christians or Samaritans , that's why I personally think it's more of a legal/cultural issue

[Sol]

In Arab countries government ≠ people in the country

It's so in any society with significant hierarchic indifference. The more inner indifference is - the lesser rulers act in interests of majority of people and express opinions of them. Those interests are taken into account as secondary, at best, - so lower classes lesser harmed the life of higher classes.

Among appropriate statistical criteria for "democracy" is decile coefficient (incomes of 10% of top devided on incomes of 10% at bottom). This is linked with average education, how much interests of most people are cared, how easy is to get higher post (social influence) for random citizen. In Socialistic states those were highest.

The majority of people on capitalistic territorries understand and decide close to nothing. They are easy manipulated by medias and other social factors. But rulers in something may act for interests of the majority. And mindlessly accepted opinions and done actions by the majority may be correct and useful for them too. This depends on rulers decisions.

> Most Arab governments are corrupt

It's one of consequences of the said above inequality and individualistic ideology (the both are linkes). It's anywhere. In USA is high corruption too.
Lower crime level is on socialistic territories. And some lower on higher authoritarian regions, where exists strong vertical control (there you'll be robed too, but by laws).

[Not A Communist Shill]

In Arab countries government ≠ people in the country

Even if some Arab countries establish friendship and peace treaties with Israel, this doesn't mean that the people agree

Nearly 95% of the Arab people - at least - oppose Israel and support Palestine , this is inherited in the collective consciousness of Arabs

Most Arab governments are corrupt, and their people need to rise again and change their mentalities before they reach the stage where they solve their problems and choose rulers and/or parliament representatives who will actually represent them

The question of Palestine, for both Palestinians and Arabs, is a legal and cultural issue , the Zionists came from all over the world to own a land that was not theirs in the first place, land isn't the only thing they stole but also food ( 1,2,3 ) and clothes ( some originally Palestinian clothing was registered Internationally as Israeli.) in order to create forged civilizational/cultural identity and history for themselves , they also committed massacres and daisplaced the Palestinian from their villages ( such as Tantura and Deir Yassin)

The only" religious " part of the issue as far as I know is the Islamic-Jewish dispute over Al-Aqsa Mosque, where the Muslims consider it its own , while the Zionists think that the Temple of Solomon might be underneath it , except that, all Palestinians who oppose Israel suffer regardless of their religion: Muslims Christians or Samaritans , that's why I personally think it's more of a legal/cultural issue

I think it's hypocritical for people who follow an imperialistic ideology like Islam to complain about other people "stealing" land. If we followed that logic, the vast majority of land controlled by Islamic regimes would have to be returned to someone else. But that's true of essentially all land, and the people who originally lived there are long dead. Also, let's not forget that Hamas stole democracy from the people it claims to represent.

I think it's typical for many societies to claim affinity for something they didn't create, like Americans with democracy, or the Arab Egyptians with the pyramids and bellydancing. Sometimes that can be problematic, but it's pretty funny to me. Like how some become claim that dreadlocks have been appropriated by Westerners, even though they have a long history the world over and may even have originated in the West: often these people will wear jeans, even though if we followed their logic, only people from Genoa would wear them, and only Italians would eat pizza.

There's little consistency in international law about which land is illegitimately held: there's no year where all claims stop being relevant, and inconsistent interpretation of whether a regime represents the population of the land or not.