Israeli–Palestinian war (2023)

[necrosebud]

I think it's hypocritical for people who follow an imperialistic ideology like Islam to complain about other people "stealing" land. If we followed that logic, the vast majority of land controlled by Islamic regimes would have to be returned to someone else. But that's true of essentially all land, and the people who originally lived there are long dead. Also, let's not forget that Hamas stole democracy from the people it claims to represent.

I think it's typical for many societies to claim affinity for something they didn't create, like Americans with democracy, or the Arab Egyptians with the pyramids and bellydancing. Sometimes that can be problematic, but it's pretty funny to me. Like how some become claim that dreadlocks have been appropriated by Westerners, even though they have a long history the world over and may even have originated in the West: often these people will wear jeans, even though if we followed their logic, only people from Genoa would wear them, and only Italians would eat pizza.

There's little consistency in international law about which land is illegitimately held: there's no year where all claims stop being relevant, and inconsistent interpretation of whether a regime represents the population of the land or not.

idk if people would be thinking about this though when the land that has been theirs and their ancestors (for 100s - 1000s, idk the history tbh) is suddenly taken from them, they are declared noncitizens in their own land, forced out of their homes, lose everything in that sense except perhaps their relationships and also their lives should they choose to migrate to another country. The british are responsible for this are they not (converting palestine to israel)? from what I understand. And no one talks about it... I mean it makes sense to me that it is experienced as genuinely unfair, and I don't disagree with that sentiment

im ofc not condoning 'islamic' sociopathic militancy I tend to see, say with this group Hamas, and ISIS etc.

[Enters Laughing]

Psychology of Military-Industrial Complex (the16types.info)



The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

As you know, I replied to you on this elsewhere, but I'll now reply here for the benefit of other people also.

The chapters in the quran are sorted by length, from shortness to longest, rather in terms of chronological order or in a way optimal for clarity.

The Islamic view is that the more recent (the latest) revelations have the most weight: if they contradict an earlier verse, then the earlier verse is disregarded.

There are suppose to be two distinct phases, the Meccan vs. the Medinan. The Medinan verses are more violent, and call for perpetual war against the non-Muslims. Indeed, the chapter that is believed to have revealed last is exactly that, it's probably the most violent.

So, when Muslims refer to the peaceful chapters, they're either ignorant or being deliberately disingenuous.

The quran after all does permit lying.

Excerpts below from: The Critical Qur'an: Explained from Key Islamic Commentaries and Contemporary Historical Research

Image 1, from the Intro:


Image 2, on Sura 48


Image 3, on Sura 48


Image 4, on Sura 48

[xerx]

I'm still scratching my head, trying to figure out how Hamas managed to pull this off.

[Finaplex]

Hamas are thug terrorists. I see next to no difference between them and the Viking raiders of the dark ages. Fear, terror, murder. Wow, killing people at a music festival, so righteous!!

Its just human trash, regardless of ideologue or religion. If you are using religion to justify your murdering, imo you are a deluded great ape.

I still think its interesting that Chimpazees cannot form bonds outside their tribe, its built into their genes. Are these people saying they are no better than chimps?

The Isrealis who took their land decades ago are a little better, but not much. No different than the Russians right now. I mean I guess if you lie about your cause convincing enough, people are bound to believe it. As covid revealed. ... Nazis are infesting Ukraine, let's bring them their freedom, by oppressing them!

Americans are equally as hypocritical, which is why I think that the will to power is equally as valid as Petterson's competency ladder.

Thank-God my quadra occupies both spaces and neither.

Circling back to Hamas though, every single one of them, regardless of personal grievances and historicity , which I acknowledge are valid, have chosen the evil path and therefore I would never support their deluded cause. Its mental illness in the form of mind viruses, and I find these abhorrent no matter at what context or level they exist, even in my own personal world.

Dark triad types just want to see their world burn because of a mistaken understanding of the false self. Congrats guys, you succeeded in making the world darker and have confirmed the path of your own self-fulfilling prophecy.

BTW, I am not a pacifist, I'm anti-folly.

[Finaplex]

As you know, I replied to you on this elsewhere, but I'll now reply here for the benefit of other people also.

The chapters in the quran are sorted by length, from shortness to longest, rather in terms of chronological order or in a way optimal for clarity.

The Islamic view is that the more recent (the latest) revelations have the most weight: if they contradict an earlier verse, then the earlier verse is disregarded.

There are suppose to be two distinct phases, the Meccan vs. the Medinan. The Medinan verses are more violent, and call for perpetual war against the non-Muslims. Indeed, the chapter that is believed to have revealed last is exactly that, it's probably the most violent.

So, when Muslims refer to the peaceful chapters, they're either ignorant or being deliberately disingenuous.

The quran after all does permit lying.

Excerpts below from: The Critical Qur'an: Explained from Key Islamic Commentaries and Contemporary Historical Research

Image 1, from the Intro:


Image 2, on Sura 48


Image 3, on Sura 48


Image 4, on Sura 48

Wow. Crazy. And of course people are not intelligent enough to interpret these through the lens of metaphor and will mistake them as literal live news, like CNN.

[Finaplex]

I'm still scratching my head, trying to figure out how Hamas managed to pull this off.

Its a mystery, xerx. Stop asking questions and just watch the news like a good little sheeple.

[Finaplex]

idk if people would be thinking about this though when the land that has been theirs and their ancestors (for 100s - 1000s, idk the history tbh) is suddenly taken from them, they are declared noncitizens in their own land, forced out of their homes, lose everything in that sense except perhaps their relationships and also their lives should they choose to migrate to another country. The british are responsible for this are they not (converting palestine to israel)? from what I understand. And no one talks about it... I mean it makes sense to me that it is experienced as genuinely unfair, and I don't disagree with that sentiment

im ofc not condoning 'islamic' sociopathic militancy I tend to see, say with this group Hamas, and ISIS etc.

Sure, but do two wrongs make a right?

Are we saying that in 80 years its okay for Ukrainians to RPG Moscow and say, "well they kind of had it coming?"

You think blowing up some kids at a music festival will heal whatever hurt lies in their hearts? Will this get them their land back? You think those ends justify the means?

Does being the bigger person pay off? Will being the better man lead to being conquered? I mean did it work out for the Tibetans?

[Sol]

I'm inclined to think, that Israel have organised at attack on own territory.
Now uses this as an explanation to occupy a part of territory officially related by most of UN members to state Palestina. Or to establish better control above parts of Palestina.
Locals may get harmed own interests. At now many ones are harmed by war conditions, mass destructions, mass killings; a part of what breaks International rules of war, but as USA have allowed to kill, terrorize and rob civil people by Israel so pro-USA medias react without much interest. From some territories as Gaza the most or large part of locals can be removed in near time. Alike recently happened when Azerbaydzhan have got the control above questionable (from pov of some of laws) Karabah region. Many locals have go away from there, as expected different terror of new "owners" based on long past time experience.
Israel does the similar to what Azerbaydzhan (with Turky help and even direct control) have done recently, when used the situation that RF is distracted by the war in own Black Sea region with USA and has lesser possibility to protect people in Karabah and Armenia from occupation by USA suborderies.

[necrosebud]

Sure, but do two wrongs make a right?

Are we saying that in 80 years its okay for Ukrainians to RPG Moscow and say, "well they kind of had it coming?"

You think blowing up some kids at a music festival will heal whatever hurt lies in their hearts? Will this get them their land back? You think those ends justify the means?

Does being the bigger person pay off? Will being the better man lead to being conquered? I mean did it work out for the Tibetans?

?
this is precisely what I mention I’m not saying in my post though?

[Northstar]

I'm inclined to think, that Israel have organised at attack on own territory.
Now uses this as an explanation to occupy a part of territory officially related by most of UN members to state Palestina. Or to establish better control above parts of Palestina.

Takes one to know one, doesn't it? Old russian tactics, no wonder you'd immediately jump to this explanation.
Link very relevant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila

[Squirrel]

I think it's hypocritical for people who follow an imperialistic ideology like Islam to complain about other people "stealing" land.

Did you read what I wrote completely?

except that, all Palestinians who oppose Israel suffer regardless of their religion: Muslims Christians or Samaritans that's why I personally think it's more of a legal/cultural issue

The complaint is the same for everyone when they oppose Zionists, even if they are atheists

If we followed that logic, the vast majority of land controlled by Islamic regimes would have to be returned to someone else

Currently , all Islamic regims exists in its lands : Saudi Arabia and Pakistan for example

people who originally lived there are long dead.

Yes of course , but document Archives of Ottoman Empire confirms that these “long-dead people” owned their lands back then , some Jews actually owned lands in Palestine back then, but they were a minority (8%) compared to other religions and they were later recognized as Palestinians at a conference

Also, let's not forget that Hamas stole democracy from the people it claims to represent.

I spoke generally about the Palestinians, away from any authority that represents them , and even if Hamas is not the best representative of Palestine , this doesn't justify Israel's actions at all and doesn't mean that the Zionists are innocent or right

[Finaplex]

?
this is precisely what I mention I’m not saying in my post though?

I think there is such a thing as over empathizing, especially if you have nothing to personally gain by doing so, for example in this case. But if its a loved one and you actually want thing to work out, it might be more acceptable to consider the why's behind the behaviour. I think all to often people look the other way in an effort to appear magnanimous towards atrocity. Wrong is kind of wrong and its okay to condemn it absolutely. Especially when the scale and impact of the atrocity is this large, compared to one that happens interpersonally. Its like, well we can understand it, so therefore its okay?!

Edit: I'm coming from a place of being impacted by narcissists. Trust me, they use your understanding and empathy against you, and also as a way to further manipulate.

Ultimately I think these people took the cowardly way.

[necrosebud]

I think there is such a thing as over empathizing, especially if you have nothing to personally gain by doing so, for example in this case. But if its a loved one and you actually want thing to work out, it might be more acceptable to consider the why's behind the behaviour. I think all to often people look the other way in an effort to appear magnanimous towards atrocity. Wrong is kind of wrong and its okay to condemn it absolutely. Especially when the scale and impact of the atrocity is this large, compared to one that happens interpersonally. Its like, well we can understand it, so therefore its okay.

I'm not completely sure what you mean by this but my initial post was in response to subt's post about it being ambiguous who or what group a land might belong to. Granted they were responding to the idea that other muslims, who are not palestinians, generally support palestinians - but at the same time, I can see why they might empathize with the lost land. I wasn't supporting the sociopathic behavior of the militants, which I mentioned in my post. I don't think sympathizing with lost land is the same as stating "its ok what hamas did" or anything to that effect.

and yes I know the jewish people also claim it as lost land, but I was just saying when you are kicked out of your home, especially in the very recent history, people might not regard it as fair or necessarily intellectualize it

[Finaplex]

and yes I know the jewish people also claim it as lost land, but I was just saying when you are kicked out of your home, especially in the very recent history, people might not regard it as fair or necessarily intellectualize it

[godslave]

The only" religious " part of the issue as far as I know is the Islamic-Jewish dispute over Al-Aqsa Mosque, where the Muslims consider it its own , while the Zionists think that the Temple of Solomon might be underneath it , except that, all Palestinians who oppose Israel suffer regardless of their religion: Muslims Christians or Samaritans , that's why I personally think it's more of a legal/cultural issue

I've thought of a solution from the moment I learned about this amazing achievement (around thirty years ago).





where there's a will there's a way...

Sadly the real issue is not about any temple; stones or sacred ground, it's about politics, fanaticism and...Eschatology

[Sol]

To now moment is reported as killed by Israel army 900 people. 25% of them are in kids age.
So high % mortality of children means intentional attack on civilians! As it's just common or higher % of kids in a population.
What Israel does is not a war, it's terrorism and genocid to possibly push out locals. It just bombs common houses, not military objects, did not gave civilians a possibilty to go away from war zone before actions.
USA use same style and Israel is their suborderie. Medias say "it's ok", "not so excellent" or nothing. Hithlerism? No, not even close. Just reminds. Those are just wrong people to value their lifes, untermensches.

[Enters Laughing]

Did you read what I wrote completely?



The complaint is the same for everyone when they oppose Zionists, even if they are atheists



Currently , all Islamic regims exists in its lands : Saudi Arabia and Pakistan for example



Yes of course , but document Archives of Ottoman Empire confirms that these “long-dead people” owned their lands back then , some Jews actually owned lands in Palestine back then, but they were a minority (8%) compared to other religions and they were later recognized as Palestinians at a conference



I spoke generally about the Palestinians, away from any authority that represents them , and even if Hamas is not the best representative of Palestine , this doesn't justify Israel's actions at all and doesn't mean that the Zionists are innocent or right

Most land occupied by Islamic regimes were gained through conquest, including Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.



By "long dead" people, I meant any peoples anywhere would suffered invasion, which has happened multiple times throughout history.

In the case of the Levant region, this includes the Byzantines, who the Muslims or at least Arabs "stole" land from, and the Jews who had their land "stolen from them by the Romans as well as others.

[necrosebud]

They are apparently making a list of certain people who have publicly held Israel single-handedly responsible... as a "terror list for potential employers"

https://sites.google.com/view/college-terror-list/home


....what??

I really don't think this is wise...

[Park]

I'm still scratching my head, trying to figure out how Hamas managed to pull this off.

Some speculate the Israelis were informed and anticipated the attack but they let it play out so that they can use it as a pretext to "level Gaza" with a subsequent counteroffensive. I find that hard to believe, but who the fuck knows.

The governing bodies/orgs on both sides are dominated by super arrogant, blood-thirsty psychopaths, only making life more difficult for civilians (impossible for the hundreds killed, obviously).

Both the two-state and "equal rights" single-state solutions are vehemently rejected by both sides (including by the majority of civilians at this point, I think), so I don't really see how this is going to pan out...

[godslave]

I've managed to not watch any horrible footage or traumatic picture of that massacre, of that pogrom. I am horrified by the morbid curiosity of people in social media. I've read stuff and it was already traumatic to just read them, I didn't allow my mind to picture them.

That said, one of the purposes of showing those images might be to prepare people for the unthinkable. Dehumanization is a defense mechanism that allow normal people to do inhuman things. When a person or a group of humans become nothing but objects, not human anymore, then even the most basic empathy ceases to exist and massacre of that kind or even mass murders with any weapon available become "tolerable" if covered and justified by a simple concept namely the right to defend oneself.

I've already heard the words of dehumanization from the terrorists and now mere people start to use the same terminology. If people consider "Hamas" and "Palestinians" as synonymous then surely the Talion law can apply its "blind justice". Although I'm sure most people who watch this horrible events never heard of Al-Qassam Brigades and don't distinguish between the political factions and opinions among the Gazans. I heard people saying that the hostages are considered as already dead by some Israeli officials... What is about to be done to Gaza is unthinkable.

The world configuration and geopolitical status has never been so auspicious to WW3. I've already heard people using eschatological terms from every side. When you already have a script albeit written thousands of years ago, all you have to do is direct the movie. The actors are ready, they stand by for the director to scream "Action !".

[Enters Laughing]

I've managed to not watch any horrible footage or traumatic picture of that massacre, of that pogrom. I am horrified by the morbid curiosity of people in social media. I've read stuff and it was already traumatic to just read them, I didn't allow my mind to picture them.

That said, one of the purposes of showing those images might be to prepare people for the unthinkable. Dehumanization is a defense mechanism that allow normal people to do inhuman things. When a person or a group of humans become nothing but objects, not human anymore, then even the most basic empathy ceases to exist and massacre of that kind or even mass murders with any weapon available become "tolerable" if covered and justified by a simple concept namely the right to defend oneself.

I've already heard the words of dehumanization from the terrorists and now mere people start to use the same terminology. If people consider "Hamas" and "Palestinians" as synonymous then surely the Talion law can apply its "blind justice". Although I'm sure most people who watch this horrible events never heard of Al-Qassam Brigades and don't distinguish between the political factions and opinions among the Gazans. I heard people saying that the hostages are considered as already dead by some Israeli officials... What is about to be done to Gaza is unthinkable.

The world configuration and geopolitical status has never been so auspicious to WW3. I've already heard people using eschatological terms from every side. When you already have a script albeit written thousands of years ago, all you have to do is direct the movie. The actors are ready, they stand by for the director to scream "Action !".

Sorry, used the wrong account to "constructive" your post. I'm trying to avoid social media too now, and this whole situation is stressing me out. I might have to take a rare break from the internet even.

I really hope that Palestinian civilians are able to get to safety somehow.

[Park]

Brace yourselves for WWIII, a much anticipated sequel to the most popular show in history. This time with cutting edge, AI-assisted technology. And are we finally going to see nuclear in action? Will there be any winners of survivors? One way to find out.

[Ikite iru]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECscKICzsJ0

[Enters Laughing]

Brace yourselves for WWIII, a much anticipated sequel to the most popular show in history. This time with cutting edge, AI-assisted technology. And are we finally going to see nuclear in action? Will there be any winners of survivors? One way to find out.

I think luckily the timing isn't right - Iran probably doesn't have a significant nuclear weapon capability, if it has one at all, and I doubt Russia could fire nukes to Israel without destroying their own country.

[Park]

As much as I want to be a non-interventionist, I think the best path forward now would be for other countries, particularly the Arab countries, to intervene and figure some way out, however slow and suboptimal. At least cushion the side-effects and provide an off-ramp for heat to dissipate away from the epicenter of the conflict. Palestinian civilians have nowhere to go (not even Egypt wants them) and Israelis are fuming (with genocidal rage) like never before. You can't just leave this to Hamas and Netanyahu's government. The hands-off approach isn't working.

[Metamorph]

I think luckily the timing isn't right - Iran probably doesn't have a significant nuclear weapon capability, if it has one at all, and I doubt Russia could fire nukes to Israel without destroying their own country.

The biggest problem with the idea of nuking Israel for people who just hate Zionism full stop is that nuking Israel to save Palestine is like nuking Queens to save Brooklyn.

[Metamorph]

Antisemites: We don't care about Palestinians, we just hate Jews!
Islamophobes: We don't care about Israelis, we just hate Arabs!

Sometimes it does look like that's how that war will end, though if people just nuke the side they dislike out of hatred they won't be able to pretend they were trying to help anyone because that really is like nuking Queens to save Brooklyn or vice versa. However, we already have Mia Khalifa banned from Playboy for supporting Hamas, so it's starting to look like that's within the realm of possibility. People just decide they hate others more than they like anything including their own lives, give up, and destroy it all. I'm sure this is what the gradual accumulation of ressentiment in the human race looks like on a large scale.

[Park]

However, we already have Mia Khalifa banned from Playboy for supporting Hamas

You follow pornstars on Twitter or something?

[Metamorph]

You follow pornstars on Twitter or something?

Worse: It was on the front page of Reddit.

[Park]

People just decide they hate others more than they like anything including their own lives, give up, and destroy it all. I'm sure this is what the gradual accumulation of ressentiment in the human race looks like on a large scale.

This also sounds like clinical narcissism (which, contrary to popular belief, is actually about self-hate) on a large (mass) scale.

[Metamorph]

This also sounds like clinical narcissism on a large (mass) scale.

Maybe. I tend to think more about ressentiment because narcissism doesn't normally have the connotation of destroying others, but I could see how those go together. I mean ressentiment like in Kierkegaard (and stolen by Nietzsche.) You have person A who does something to harm person B, so person B harms person C to stop themselves from feeling like they're at the bottom of the pecking order. I think most racism tends to work like that, like you have all the rich people who pick on rural white people, so the rural white people pick on black people and other races in order to feel more powerful.

I think this is often a driving force in human history as a whole. Look into for example the relationship between SERE and the various torture scandals such as Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib. These military people were literally tortured by their own government so they decided to torture their prisoners to make sure they weren't the victims. I think that's also a lot of why most war crimes are committed to begin with. Military hazing is often worse than fraternity hazing despite all the Bible-thumping lots of military types engage in. Since they don't want to feel like the victims of sexual assault they go out and rape civilians, or if they were made to fall from a tree and humiliate themselves they go machine gun down civilians so they all fall into their graves.

It's not just that having power makes people go crazy like the myth of the Ring of Gyges in my opinion as that people were already given a motivation to feel weak and now they do acts of evil to try to make themselves feel stronger again. Of course this is a very illusory form of power, the same as how poor people are always thinking of the power of money and rich people think money doesn't matter. The power of evil should never be seducing because it is just the power of lacking and wanting, yet most people (and I do mean most people, Sturgeon's law prefigured as broad is the road that leads to destruction and all that) are seduced by it because an absence is powerful to the person who feels an absence. That's also in my opinion why things like "stealing spells" are so popular among the subset of people who try doing all that sort of witchcraft thing. It's not enough to have what someone else has; one has to take it from them in order to feel powerful again. Sometimes people merely spread evil without even asking for anything themselves, such as just trying to make people split up, so swayed are many by evil.

[Park]

Worse: It was on the front page of Reddit.

Well, that's certainly interesting.

[Park]

Maybe. I tend to think more about ressentiment because narcissism doesn't normally have the connotation of destroying others, but I could see how those go together. I mean ressentiment like in Kierkegaard (and stolen by Nietzsche.) You have person A who does something to harm person B, so person B harms person C to stop themselves from feeling like they're at the bottom of the pecking order. I think most racism tends to work like that, like you have all the rich people who pick on rural white people, so the rural white people pick on black people and other races in order to feel more powerful.

I have definitely witnessed that kind of dynamic (mostly on an anecdotal basis), but I don't know how prevalent it actually is. It is difficult to gauge these things until something very apparent/explicit happens. Or you study history and inevitably arrive at some horrifying realizations...

Regarding narcissism, I've been toying with the idea that I might be somewhere on the spectrum recently, after a couple of serious mental breakdowns I went through. I think I reached a point where I felt I truly hated myself and my life, and I've had short-lived flashes of destructive thoughts of the kind you described. They scared the shit out of me, to say the least.

[xerx]

Some speculate the Israelis were informed and anticipated the attack but they let it play out so that they can use it as a pretext to "level Gaza" with a subsequent counteroffensive. I find that hard to believe, but who the fuck knows.

I've heard the conspiracy theory that it was allowed by Netanyahu in order to shore up support for his unpopular government (due to his recent judicial overhaul that reduces the power of the supreme court, removing certain checks and balances against the executive branch of the Israeli government), and I've heard the exact opposite conspiracy theory: that Israeli intelligence permitted it to happen in order to reduce Netanyahu's popularity (both the Israeli military and intelligence establishments are deeply opposed to Netanyahu's reforms).

[xerx]

Its a mystery, xerx. Stop asking questions and just watch the news like a good little sheeple.

(: I'll just JAQ off elsewhere then.

[xerx]

The simplest explanation is an intelligence failure. If the last few years have affirmed anything to my mind, ineptitude is a fixture of government and of government agencies (the bungled Russian invasion of Ukraine, the untenable American response to the same Russian invasion, the farcical Hunka incident by the ridiculous Canadian parliament, and other incidents of incompetence all come to mind). We'll get the full(er) story one day, of course.

[Metamorph]

The simplest explanation is an intelligence failure. If the last few years have affirmed anything to my mind, incompetence and poor-readiness is a fixture of government and of government agencies (the bungled Russian invasion of Ukraine, the farcical Hunka incident by the ridiculous Canadian parliament, and others all come to mind). We'll get the full(er) story one day, of course.

Also known as "I'm from the government and I'm here to help!" and "Good enough for government work!" Area 51 probably really was a crash-landing by aliens, who probably crashed because they were from an extraterrestrial government which was equally incompetent as Earth governments.

[xerx]

Also known as "I'm from the government and I'm here to help!" and "Good enough for government work!" Area 51 probably really was a crash-landing by aliens, who probably crashed because they were from an extraterrestrial government which was equally incompetent as Earth governments.

Solution to the Fermi paradox: Instead of warp gate to Earth, the Galactic Empire built a warp gate to nowhere.

[Metamorph]

Solution to the Fermi paradox: Instead of warp gate to Earth, the Galactic Empire built a warp gate to nowhere.

Yes! But there are still a few individual aliens that some people on Earth know about, just not as many as there should be if extraterrestrial governments were more competent than terrestrial governments. Seeing as all governments are incompetent regardless of species, there's no galactic warp gate to Earth or anywhere else that matters. The galactic infrastructure is just as dilapidated as the nearby roads and frequently closed off.

On the bright side, at least we have time to prepare and not be subjects to galactic imperialism. Surely we live in the best of all possible worlds!

[Metamorph]

The sequel to the postcolonialists is the galactic postcolonialists. Some college students from the studies departments will be ineffectively hitting alien invaders on the head with Edward Said's Orientalism.