Israeli–Palestinian war (2023)

[DogOfDanger]

Casting the Palestinian cause as entirely "Islamist" (an ideology that hardly elicits sympathy) is a ruse — a ruse that is calculated to paint the Palestinians in the worst possible light, and it has the aim of obscuring the fact that the Palestinian revolt is a normal struggle for national independence (a struggle not too different from France or Poland's struggles against German occupation). If anything, it is precisely Israel's cruel suppression of secular Palestinian nationalism that has allowed fundamentalist Islam to fill the resulting vacuum.

99% of Palestinians practice Islam, and that's been the case for a long time... their religiosity is not the result of a vacuum that was created in 1948, it was the Arab states that declared the war in 1948, but the conflict between the Jews and Muslims in this region is millennia old, and so are the peoples religious traditions...
For the statement to be a ruse it would need to be false, these are all facts, educate yourself and learn the difference...
The ruse here would be your pretending to deeply understand Palestinian culture while speaking as if they are a secular people. Secularism is a relatively new and Western cultural movement, secularism has not been common throughout history.
Since Islam was founded the conflict has been about religion, it is about holy Jerusalem and Jewish infidels. I understand this sounds absurd, that's probably because you are not an adherent to the religion. It is not merely the Hamas government that’s strictly religious, it is the population...

If you study Muslim culture you’ll see that adherence to religion is culturally enforced, that’s prescribed by the Qu’ran. From the beginning Islam was always spread through violence / intimidation / cultural enforcement. Go read the quotes from the Qu’ran I posted earlier. In many ways Islam is a kind of mental imprisonment to a dictator. Which is what Muhammed was... You should go watch a video North Koreans worshipping Kim Jung Un. They don't have any other option in North Korea, they can't speak against the regime or they will be arrested and imprisoned. The authoritarian control in North Korea is infiltrated into the minds of the whole population, family members will even rat one another out for offenses against the regime... Islam fosters a very similar mentality, that threat of violence is how you get modern nations such as Iran or Palestine with 99-100% of its people adhering to Islam. Infidels, and those that do not adhere to religion, are given lower social status, chastised, abused, and even sentenced to death, and all of that is prescribed by the Qu’ran... you can go read the Qu'ran quotes I posted earlier in this thread if you don't believe it. For example, Hamas holds public executions where children watch the executions.

It is patently absurd for you to suggest that Islam is not a primary factor in Hamas’s stance toward Israel. Hamas has plainly, openly stated that it is a primary factor. Hamas is a fundamentalist Islamic organization, again, go read the Qu’ran which calls Muslims to participate in this war, or read Hamas’s charter / their own public statements about the war effort, which I have posted in this thread already. Go listen to the interview of the son of the founder of Hamas where he states Hamas is a fundamentalist Islamic organization. Hamas refers to Israel as the holy land in their public statements and directly invokes Allah and Jihad on a regular basis… this is not up for debate. If you deny this your statements are simply meaningless.

As for what I believe:

* Palestinians are (mostly) willing to compromise, whereas Israel is not.

it is not the Palestinians Israel would be negotiating with, it’s Hamas. That is the governing body… you seem to have this idea that Hamas is a democratically elected, valid representative of the Palestinians. Hamas has suspended the elections. And if Hamas were valid representatives of the Palestinian population this would only suggest the Palestinian population is guilty of / complicit in terrorist acts. But I suspect most Palestinians probably are willing to negotiate, however as long as Hamas is in charge negotiating with the Palestinian people (or their valid representatives) is simply not possible. Why have you mentioned Palestinians and avoided mentioning Hamas when it is so clearly Hamas we are dealing with?

I'm not Muslim. And even if I were, I wouldn't let it influence my opinion.

The very idea behind this statement here is incoherent. Religion is a set of opinions held. A religion is believed by those who follow it... Again here is this liberal atheist/agnostic idea that you people inject into politics - that religions don’t really motivate people, and that people do not deep down truly believe their religions, it's just this hokey set of traditions that some people superficially enjoy / don't want to depart from their habits, but which don't really matter very much or play much role in shaping peoples mindset or their political / social ambitions.. peoples mindsets are ultimately alot more determined by economics. And all cultures have the same basic set of core values, wants and needs that we in the West have. For example, Muslim cultures deep down don't hate our liberal Western values... even though they call it haram and prescribe beheadings for many things commonplace in Western society.

It is nonsense to say that I believe in a religion, and yet I don’t allow my religion to influence my opinion. Much less regarding a matter that’s a central theme to the religion in question, a matter that the religion is full of explicit statements and stances about.
I think this really shows the way that you so deeply do not understand the core mindset / political and social motives at play here.
How can you believe something and yet not? How does that even work?

[Kernel]

The Gaza Health Ministry, which is controlled by Hamas, has given that figure... This has been pointed out repeatedly, but you continue to ignore this.
So why are you confident in those figures? What do you know that the rest of the world doesn't?
The reason you don't mention the source or question the statistics validity is it's useful for your argument. Proving that you will basically do / say whatever is required to justify your fundamental opinion.
I wonder whether your apparent concern for the civilians is genuine or if it's a similar ploy.

Anyway - no way of validating it, but even if it is true the number is on the low end as far as wars go, and pretty much nothing compared to the number killed in US-funded wars in just the last 10 years.
So what is your point then - that war should never happen? Is that the idea here, or what...?
Ideally war should never happen, but you're just indulging in fantasies and presenting them as policy proposals while not contending with the practical issues... which is why your moral outrage is not taken seriously, it is useless and really seems to be more about self-indulgence than solving actual problems.

Ultimately there are laws surrounding the declaration and conduction of war, and Israel is following those laws. Isreal has an international established legal right to declare war on Hamas in retaliation for Oct 7. No one in this thread has presented any evidence that would deny Israel this right, or that suggests Israel is systematically committing war crimes.

Ohhh look at me everyone, I'm so concerned, yet another war is happening, ... ahhgghh I'm such a good person it should never happen... Even though I've suggested no realistic alternative and I said nothing about the past dozen wars ~waves hands in the air~

I'm confident of those figures because I actually have seen hundreds of videos from journalists (and some are actually dead now) in Gaza? Are you blind or what? This is just proof that the media is hiding a lot from you guys.... or the likes of you just want to blame everything on religion and especially Islam! Which is weird and racist as heck.

Anyways I don't want pointless arguments with you. I just state here what I know. Take it or leave it i don't care.

[DogOfDanger]

I'm confident of those figures because I actually have seen hundreds of videos from journalists (and some are actually dead now) in Gaza? Are you blind or what? This is just proof that the media is hiding a lot from you guys....

And the video or news report proving your statistics accuracy is... where?

or the likes of you just want to blame everything on religion and especially Islam! Which is weird and racist as heck.

You're correct, I am discriminating against violent and insane religious ideas... this is called thinking. And your problem with it is...? Oh, right, you are incapable of it. I see... I'm sorry for you.

Which is weird.

Oh I know, so weirdly mystifying, who would ever think that a groups behavior could be explained by the fact that their religion tells them to engage in the behavior... man it's like, just baffling the connection being made.

and racist as heck

No, that would be called religious discrimination, or if it were a broad prejudice against religion you could call it anti-theism.

At this point 'racism' has lost its meaning, people no longer believe it refers to specifically race related discrimination, but now it broadly refers to all kinds of discrimination that can be loosely coupled to race. I suppose that's the predictable consequence of critical race theory portraying everything in society, including things like money, as racist.
It is too bad that critical race theorists are not subject to any serious critical analysis or peer review process, that might force them to do some real critical thinking, instead the whole "field" if I can call it that is really just a circle jerk. But it does have the word 'critical' at the beginning of it, so I guess that means it has been developed using critical thinking... well then I guess I really shouldn't question it.

Anyways I don't want pointless arguments with you. I just state here what I know. Take it or leave it i don't care.

It's a good thing that you don't care, otherwise you might be let down by the fact you really have no evidence and no argument, and your statement just makes no sense...

[Sol]

Israel/USA attack Syrian army. The war is moving and expanding to Syria. The similar is with Lebanon.
As I said from the start among aims of USA in what happens. USA also was who organised the attack on Israel occupation forces in Palestina by Hamas. USA created and controlls Hamas to significant degree.
The war may go on other territories too. While Syria and Lebanon were among obligate. USA's task in Syria was stoped by Russian army years ago and now USA tries to do the intention with a help of Israel army. If Russian government cared better about nation's interests than about money at traders class - there would be more and enough soldiers and weapons in a region, to suppress what USA and Israel do in Syria now.
Russia needs x10 more army than has at now. Differing economy and social system to supply such army. It's incompatible with capitalism and traders class existence. But government made by traders will never go against own master class. So it reacts on what happens in borders which are not enough. There is strategical loss of what happens in Russia. Which was started by liberals since Gorbachev or earlier, since 1960s when USSR leaders moved to capitalism and "west"-centrism. What liberals do does not match with Russians to be alive and lived as technologically developed society. Just betrayers. Only hide this on tactical level still.

[chriscorey]

Wow.

[Xiu]

50 year old flirting with 17-18 is certainly not appropriate, but that isn't pedophilia. Pedophilia is an attraction to prepubescent children. There are other names for people that are attracted to teens, forgot what they are. Still a problem if it's illegal, and a sign of a developmental issue regardless, but still pedophilia is its own distinct category. But 18 is legal in the US, and 17 is legal in other countries, so I agree it's not quite right but I really don't think it's the smoking pistol you think it is.

Judging by that response looks like we found our second pedophile! Legality doesnt mean shit.

Typical Israel apologist, morally molested, not that anyone's surprised.

[DogOfDanger]

hurrrrrr durrrrr

[DogOfDanger]

this is not a matter of debate, the word has a definition-

Pedophilia - Wikipedia

Pedophilia (alternatively spelled paedophilia) is a psychiatric disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children.

Misuse of medical terminology

The words pedophile and pedophilia are commonly used informally to describe an adult's sexual interest in pubescent or post-pubescent persons under the age of consent. The terms hebephilia or ephebophilia may be more accurate in these cases

[DogOfDanger]

Of course you won't acknowledge the actual definition or revoke your baseless accusation since you have no credibility, accountability, or critical thinking ability. All you really want to do is appeal to the guttural reactions of crowds... because you are another spastic brainless activist.

Typical Israel apologist, morally molested

And what do you mean that I am morally molested, btw...? Doesn't that imply that being molested is an offense ...? I think you meant to say "moral molester"...?
Actually, morally molested could be a good way to describe those who endure your imposing of your incoherent, pretend morality for political / social gain and this hollow self-aggrandizement...
Fortunately society seems to be getting pretty fed up with all this self-promoting activism by now. I know you've been led to believe that this is how you advance causes and make progress for yourself / various causes in society, but you will achieve nothing except grow old and get heart disease in front of your computer.
Keep trying!

[chriscorey]

Judging by that response looks like we found our second pedophile! Legality doesnt mean shit.

Typical Israel apologist, morally molested, not that anyone's surprised.

Does that mean raping a jew and shooting her in the back of the head while you're still inside of her?

[DogOfDanger]

Like your book tells you to do and like your prophet did to his 12 year old wives...

[chriscorey]

Gaza's concentration camp. As @FreelancePoliceman and @Vex say

[chriscorey]

[timber]

Sad and depressing.

[Metamorph]

The Israel-Palestine conflict is most likely going to go on until the end of time because wanting people to live in peace is really a Christian idea while the conflict is between two groups who have very consciously rejected Christianity. If you are Christian in Israel you are legally not Jewish no matter what your ethnicity is. The Christians mostly end up sort of taking shelter with the Muslims because the extremist Jews hate and want to kill everyone who isn't Jewish by their definition (so much for the people complaining about Israel being an ethnostate, it's not, it's a literal theocracy,) while the Muslims are way more Antisemitic than anti-Christian even if they're anti-Christian too, so the Muslims kind of ignore them in favor of trying to kill every last Jew if they're lucky which they usually seem to be.

If you've heard it's a religious conflict that's true, but that's not because religions in general drive people to become violent extremists, it's because these two particular religions drive people to want to take over a specific piece of land but Christianity decided doesn't despite also having an interest in that piece of land. And of course Buddhists aren't all that violent and Hindus have mostly not been very violent despite the Hindutva thing having taken off recently, but in addition to Eastern religions historically having been pretty chill Christianity is also pretty chill despite there being exceptions with the Crusades. Every religion has had exceptions, but that's probably mostly when politics has caused people to deviate from the core teachings. It's obvious what Jesus said, stuff like "don't murder" and "turn the other cheek" and "take up your cross and follow Me" for example. Judaism and Islam just want to conflict with each other over land until the end of time and trying to break them up would probably lead to entire empires spending every last piece of their resources trying to break them up.

[Xiu]

Does that mean raping a jew and shooting her in the back of the head while you're still inside of her?

what could you possibly be talking about, genuienly perplexed at this response??

[Xiu]

Of course you won't acknowledge the actual definition or revoke your baseless accusation since you have no credibility, accountability, or critical thinking ability. All you really want to do is appeal to the guttural reactions of crowds... because you are another spastic brainless activist.



And what do you mean that I am morally molested, btw...? Doesn't that imply that being molested is an offense ...? I think you meant to say "moral molester"...?
Actually, morally molested could be a good way to describe those who endure your imposing of your incoherent, pretend morality for political / social gain and this hollow self-aggrandizement...
Fortunately society seems to be getting pretty fed up with all this self-promoting activism by now. I know you've been led to believe that this is how you advance causes and make progress for yourself / various causes in society, but you will achieve nothing except grow old and get heart disease in front of your computer.
Keep trying!

It's an expression... you've been robbed of any genuine human morality, left an unempathetic devoid shell. I have nothing else to say to you, keep typing, no one takes you seriously when you're so clearly clouded by hate and prejudice.

[chriscorey]

what could you possibly be talking about, genuienly perplexed at this response??

what happened to Israel was wrong and what's happening to the Palestinians right now is wrong. I think morally everybody should be able to see that.

[DogOfDanger]

It's an expression... you've been robbed of any genuine human morality, left an unempathetic devoid shell. I have nothing else to say to you, keep typing, no one takes you seriously when you're so clearly clouded by hate and prejudice.

When your morality is contradictory or does not account for obvious facts, and you ignore this / double down on it, you have proven it is nothing but a pseudo-morality that you use as a power ploy, or perhaps as a way of complimenting or aggrandizing yourself. For this reason your "morality" can be easily ignored, and it is right to ignore it. Keep trying

[Xiu]

what happened to Israel was wrong and what's happening to the Palestinians right now is wrong. I think morally everybody should be able to see that.

Okay, whats the point in stating the obvious everyone agrees with this. Israel was created as an apartheid imperalist state and has oppressed palestinians for over 75 years, and you ask why the events of October 7th took place? Trying the "both sides" stance simply doesn't work here.

[Xiu]

When your morality is contradictory or does not account for obvious facts, and you ignore this / double down on it, you have proven it is nothing but a pseudo-morality that you use as a power ploy, or perhaps as a way of complimenting or aggrandizing yourself. For this reason your "morality" can be easily ignored, and it is right to ignore it. Keep trying

[Adam Strange]

Okay, whats the point in stating the obvious everyone agrees with this. Israel was created as an apartheid imperalist state and has oppressed palestinians for over 75 years, and you ask why the events of October 7th took place? Trying the "both sides" stance simply doesn't work here.

Yes, I don't see the problem there as a "both sides" kind of thing, either.

Here's another opinion: https://nitter.net/visegrad24/status...440295166376#m

And then there's this:



And this: https://nitter.net/MarinaMedvin/stat...173982052542#m .

[chriscorey]

Okay, whats the point in stating the obvious everyone agrees with this. Israel was created as an apartheid imperalist state and has oppressed palestinians for over 75 years, and you ask why the events of October 7th took place? Trying the "both sides" stance simply doesn't work here.

I'm just not going to condone the slaughter of innocent people even if there is oppression going on. I've seen a lot of footage of people supporting Hamas and I thought you were one of those.

as for the rest Sub has already posted everything I agree with and neither of us are morally molested.

[Xiu]

I'm just not going to condone the slaughter of innocent people even if there is oppression going on. I've seen a lot of footage of people supporting Hamas and I thought you were one of those.

as for the rest Sub has already posted everything I agree with and neither of us are morally molested.

Wdym "even if there is oppression going on" what do you think the oppression of the Palestinian people is exactly. It's decades of murder, displacement, prejuidice by the zionists. What negotiation is there to be had with the oppressor and the oppressed, liberation and equality is non-negotiable. Even when the Palestinian people bite their tongue and opt for peaceful protests and talks, they have been stifled by the Israeli "government". What other option is there but violent retaliation, we can condemn it all day but it wont change the fact it was a grim but neccessary fact of liberation. Without the attacks of October 7th, the slaughter taking place on the Palestinian people would simply be stretched out for decades to come until the Zionist get what they ultimately want, the total eradication of Palestine and its people. Atleast now despite the unimaginable number of deaths thats still growing, people are finally starting to recognize the cruelty and unjust actions of the Israeli state and hopefully with the proceeding of South Africa's case against Israel's crimes something will finally be done.

[chriscorey]

Wdym "even if there is oppression going on" what do you think the oppression of the Palestinian people is exactly. It's decades of murder, displacement, prejuidice by the zionists. What negotiation is there to be had with the oppressor and the oppressed, liberation and equality is non-negotiable. Even when the Palestinian people bite their tongue and opt for peaceful protests and talks, they have been stifled by the Israeli "government". What other option is there but violent retaliation, we can condemn it all day but it wont change the fact it was a grim but neccessary fact of liberation. Without the attacks of October 7th, the slaughter taking place on the Palestinian people would simply be stretched out for decades to come until the Zionist get what they ultimately want, the total eradication of Palestine and its people. Atleast now despite the unimaginable number of deaths thats still growing, people are finally starting to recognize the cruelty and unjust actions of the Israeli state and hopefully with the proceeding of South Africa's case against Israel's crimes something will finally be done.

I've read some different information about it. I agree with SubT who wrote further back in this thread. I also took note of what Adam posted.

[DogOfDanger]

I like how every other random person on the internet is an authority on the history of Israel / Palestine conflicts suddenly.

[Xiu]

I've read some different information about it. I agree with SubT who wrote further back in this thread. I also took note of what Adam posted.

Im curious as to what you mean by different information...

[Xiu]

I like how every other random person on the internet is an expert on the history of Israel / Palestine conflicts suddenly.

It's not hard to understand a simple case of imperalism.

Of course since youre the sole exception of the "random people on the internet", you're the single true expert on the the history of Palestine, id love to be reeducated.

[DogOfDanger]

Oh but it is hard to understand, actually, because there are two basically separate versions of history, it's a millennia old conflict, the modern conflict is 80 years in the making, there are many aspects to it and it's based on information and events you have no way of validating... it isn't enough to just choose what you believe based on your worldview. To do so with confidence is an act of stupidity.

Unlike you I haven't pretended to understand all the nuances and details of the history of conflicts between Israel / Palestine, I've really focused on the religious aspect of it and on Hamas's own public statements - things we can actually see and verify. The point I've made repeatedly regarding the history of recent conflicts is there are literally two separate versions of history and no good way of distilling which version of history is true vs bullshit, except through just intuition and hunches. We've had people try to detail it in this thread, but that conversation was ultimately speculative... Meanwhile there's you acting like you know with certainty how events unfolded, just basically regurgitating something you heard on youtube or somewhere... you aren't a historian and when I point that out you realize it, so you don't even attempt to defend your position you just kind of point the finger back at me and say "well you're not a historian either naahhhh", but I never pretend to be, and in so doing you acknowledge how meaningless your argument is... you have no credible argument since you are just repeating some random scrap of information that you have no real context about, which you got from some random source, a source that in turn got it from some other random source, but you are insisting on the information being true like you found it all out yourself. Ultimately because it jives with your worldview - in other words you are just kind of dogmatically iterating your worldview here, which ultimately has no real bearing on how we should interpret the situation...

[I am a frog]

And of course Buddhists aren't all that violent and Hindus have mostly not been very violent despite the Hindutva thing having taken off recently, but in addition to Eastern religions historically having been pretty chill Christianity is also pretty chill despite there being exceptions with the Crusades.

Buddhists extremists are actually a thing in Myanmar lol.

[Metamorph]

Buddhists extremists are actually a thing in Myanmar lol.

Yes, hence why I said not all that violent rather than completely nonviolent. I heard about the Myanmar thing before but Myanmar is such a small part of the world. But yeah, Buddhism doesn't make it impossible to be an extremist at all.

[chriscorey]

Im curious as to what you mean by different information...

I'm seeing more and more evidence that Palestinians are violent radicalized people.

Here's the pillar of morality here. Pro Palestinians protesting cancer patients.

[timber]

Yes, hence why I said not all that violent rather than completely nonviolent. I heard about the Myanmar thing before but Myanmar is such a small part of the world. But yeah, Buddhism doesn't make it impossible to be an extremist at all.

hmm, except there is no-self. So who is the one that can have these extreme views?

In other words, from the buddhist perspective, extreme views are ephemeral clouds and a non-entity self attaches to them and then becomes a believer. Without a self , there is only believing and no believer.

Buddhists are true atheists, for not only do they have little to say about a God, they also think there is no soul, and there is no-one-here. Clock-work humans. What do you think?

[timber]

I'm seeing more and more evidence that Palestinians are violent radicalized people.

Here's the pillar of morality here. Pro Palestinians protesting cancer patients.

I always wondered how thousands of extremists got away with what happened in October. Living there, wouldn't someone notice?

Its like, I don't totally blame Nazi socialists in the Government for what happened. The German people themselves were also to blame.

During covid, I saw with my own eyes who would have ratted out Anne Keller, hiding in the attic, to the authorities.

[timber]

btw, what the Isreali's are doing is awful. I also think Hamas is a bunch of sociopaths who used human shields. What they did guaranteed they can kiss their chance at a independent state good bye forever. This situation is nothing like Rwanda. These two groups, the Isreali's and Palestinanins hate each other and its never going to stop

Where were the moderate Palestinians ? Likely there won't be any after their cities were shelled into the dust. Its just fucking sad. Humanity is just the worst when people act so insane.

[Metamorph]

If you joined Substack or even a social media site you would be having a much higher quality of conversation about this with more information. Did you know Netanyahu probably intentionally funded Hamas? Get out of your little socionics echo chamber and you'd hear these things too.

[DogOfDanger]

In other news, Elon Musk is a definite Nazi... look for proof on X, he responded to a picture of Mel Gibon recently where he said "Is Mel Gibson really that buff?"... his way of telling people whose side he's on. If you just keep your ear to the ground and listen for the signals you can figure this stuff out.

[Metamorph]

In other news, Elon Musk is a definite Nazi... look for proof on X, he responded to a picture of Mel Gibon recently where he said "Is Mel Gibson really that buff?"... his way of telling people whose side he's on.

He also called George Soros Magneto, which is not a fair comparison at all. Magneto did nothing wrong, don't defame him by comparing him to Soros.

[xerx]

99% of Palestinians practice Islam, and that's been the case for a long time... their religiosity is not the result of a vacuum that was created in 1948, it was the Arab states that declared the war in 1948, but the conflict between the Jews and Muslims in this region is millennia old, and so are the peoples religious traditions...
For the statement to be a ruse it would need to be false, these are all facts, educate yourself and learn the difference...
The ruse here would be your pretending to deeply understand Palestinian culture while speaking as if they are a secular people. Secularism is a relatively new and Western cultural movement, secularism has not been common throughout history.
Since Islam was founded the conflict has been about religion, it is about holy Jerusalem and Jewish infidels. I understand this sounds absurd, that's probably because you are not an adherent to the religion. It is not merely the Hamas government that’s strictly religious, it is the population...

If you study Muslim culture you’ll see that adherence to religion is culturally enforced, that’s prescribed by the Qu’ran. From the beginning Islam was always spread through violence / intimidation / cultural enforcement. Go read the quotes from the Qu’ran I posted earlier. In many ways Islam is a kind of mental imprisonment to a dictator. Which is what Muhammed was... You should go watch a video North Koreans worshipping Kim Jung Un. They don't have any other option in North Korea, they can't speak against the regime or they will be arrested and imprisoned. The authoritarian control in North Korea is infiltrated into the minds of the whole population, family members will even rat one another out for offenses against the regime... Islam fosters a very similar mentality, that threat of violence is how you get modern nations such as Iran or Palestine with 99-100% of its people adhering to Islam. Infidels, and those that do not adhere to religion, are given lower social status, chastised, abused, and even sentenced to death, and all of that is prescribed by the Qu’ran... you can go read the Qu'ran quotes I posted earlier in this thread if you don't believe it. For example, Hamas holds public executions where children watch the executions.

It is patently absurd for you to suggest that Islam is not a primary factor in Hamas’s stance toward Israel. Hamas has plainly, openly stated that it is a primary factor. Hamas is a fundamentalist Islamic organization, again, go read the Qu’ran which calls Muslims to participate in this war, or read Hamas’s charter / their own public statements about the war effort, which I have posted in this thread already. Go listen to the interview of the son of the founder of Hamas where he states Hamas is a fundamentalist Islamic organization. Hamas refers to Israel as the holy land in their public statements and directly invokes Allah and Jihad on a regular basis… this is not up for debate. If you deny this your statements are simply meaningless.

it is not the Palestinians Israel would be negotiating with, it’s Hamas. That is the governing body… you seem to have this idea that Hamas is a democratically elected, valid representative of the Palestinians. Hamas has suspended the elections. And if Hamas were valid representatives of the Palestinian population this would only suggest the Palestinian population is guilty of / complicit in terrorist acts. But I suspect most Palestinians probably are willing to negotiate, however as long as Hamas is in charge negotiating with the Palestinian people (or their valid representatives) is simply not possible. Why have you mentioned Palestinians and avoided mentioning Hamas when it is so clearly Hamas we are dealing with?

I never dissected Hamas' motivation. What I said was that Islam isn't the only factor in the Palestinians' stance towards Israel. The Palestinians are under brutal Israeli military occupation, and they have been since before Hamas was even a thing; they don't need the Koran to tell them that they're being screwed over.

As for the willingness to negotiate: The PLO (a staunchly secular organization) accepted UN resolution 242 as well as Israel's right to exist, well before Hamas' rise to power in Gaza. The Palestinians nearly succeeded in concluding a treaty, and were very eager to do so, during the Taba summit in 2001 (in fact, both sides were seemingly eager — it was Israeli hardliners who terminated the negotiations). And it's Israel who repeatedly (year after year) votes against a two state solution at the UN general assembly.

Even Hamas had at one point agreed to accept a two state solution.

The very idea behind this statement here is incoherent. Religion is a set of opinions held. A religion is believed by those who follow it... Again here is this liberal atheist/agnostic idea that you people inject into politics - that religions don’t really motivate people, and that people do not deep down truly believe their religions, it's just this hokey set of traditions that some people superficially enjoy / don't want to depart from their habits, but which don't really matter very much or play much role in shaping peoples mindset or their political / social ambitions.. peoples mindsets are ultimately alot more determined by economics. And all cultures have the same basic set of core values, wants and needs that we in the West have. For example, Muslim cultures deep down don't hate our liberal Western values... even though they call it haram and prescribe beheadings for many things commonplace in Western society.

It is nonsense to say that I believe in a religion, and yet I don’t allow my religion to influence my opinion. Much less regarding a matter that’s a central theme to the religion in question, a matter that the religion is full of explicit statements and stances about.

I think this really shows the way that you so deeply do not understand the core mindset / political and social motives at play here.
[FONT=georgia]How can you believe something and yet not? How does that even work?

Being devoutly religious would presumably affect my judgment on metaphysics. But it wouldn't affect my judgment on politics or on anything else that is reified and open to examination by direct perception. Not to put a fine point on it, but the causality ought to run in reverse: My politics alongside every other one of my temporal prejudices ought to circumscribe the range of religious belief that I find meaningful.

[chriscorey]

If you joined Substack or even a social media site you would be having a much higher quality of conversation about this with more information. Did you know Netanyahu probably intentionally funded Hamas? Get out of your little socionics echo chamber and you'd hear these things too.

Can you share this information with us? We'd love to hear it.