Read back in the thread, I think several demonstrate Palestine had many, many options over the years of which they refused.Originally Posted by Kernel
Land makes people buggy for sure, but the optics are clear, more is going on than land and occupation.
I think if you read back over what my sentences actually said, I said, religion was being used as a mask for hatred, lust for power, and clearly revenge if you research Hamas's leaders.
Pardon the long absence.
Anyway...
Being evicted from one's land (to make way for settlers) is ethnic cleansing.
Israel isn't interested in creating a subservient Palestinian population. It's interested in removing Palestinians in order to make way for Jewish colonists.
I wish that Israel did follow your grand plan to integrate the Palestinians as subjugated second-class citizens. That would improve its human rights record to the level of China.
That"s true. Not what's happening, but true. Are you roman?
and how dare you leave us @xerx I missed you.
What Palestinians feel towards Israel isn't politically correct, I'll give it that. But it's natural to want to destroy the people who destroyed your own life — and no one has the moral authority to take that away from the Palestinians. Giving the Palestinians an obnoxious lecture on antisemitism is like giving the Yazidis a lecture on Islamophobia.
And even though it isn't the saintliest sentiment, simply wanting to kill someone isn't a crime.
I don't know, I've never taken an ancestry test. I missed you too, I guess.
You're so mean, I guess. Glad to have you back.
Equating anti-Zionism with Antisemitism is like equating anti-Maoism with Sinophobia.
they both think they're firing at Satan
Civilians doesn't even have food or water and you speak as thought they have suicide vests? Most of them doctors, writers, professors, journalists...
Israel doesn't even care about protecting its own men, the proof is they just killed 3 israel hostages by accident. They are noobs.
The only option they had was to live under the authority of Israel which abused them, left them homeless, didn't give them any rights and ofc killed them.
It was already mentioned in this read many times. But you prefer to turn a blind eye to this information.
why was Isreal giving them food and water if they're their own state?
Oh they're not. Why not?
Last edited by chriscorey; 12-16-2023 at 09:06 AM.
I think many people on this forum are right-wing and rather conservative. Dunno if something like socionics attracts such people, or if it is just a coincidence.
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ung-s-subjects
Really?
I think a lot of people just have jobs and don't mooch off their parents.
News which aren't shown in western media:
Israelis are now openly describing when the Israeli military began firing MISSILES from helicopters and MORTARS from tanks AT THE HOMES OF ISRAELIS on October 7th.
WHEN WILL THIS BE COVERED IN WESTERN MEDIA?
HOW MANY JEWS AND ISRAELIS DID ISRAEL KILL?
Of course this explains homes (and victims) that were completely scorched and burnt to a crisp with big gaping holes in the roofs and everywhere else from the missiles and mortars.
It also explains why Israel couldn’t tell the difference in the weeks that followed between members of Hamas and Israeli families. They were all burned beyond recognition - which we see in Gaza daily.
Today we learned that not 1,400, not 1,200, but 695 Israeli civilians were killed.
How many of these were killed by Israel?
We now have reports from all over at soldiers firing tanks, rifles, and missiles from helicopters at Israelis.
from @uncapturedmedia
reports here:
https://www.instagram.com/p/C07raeDrlHc/
I have a job too. I think what's more likely is that people in the west come to contact with socionics through MBTI, which is a corporate typology, meaning that many people here probably work for big companies which makes them less inclined to be idealists or left-leaning.
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ung-s-subjects
‘A mass assassination factory’: Inside Israel’s calculated bombing of Gaza
This is a " must-read " for any naive person who thinks positively of Israel and believes that it truly cares about civilians.
The article is long and full of details
Souls know their way back home
Or even more likely you're just wrong. Btw, do you have any evidence of the claim in your signature, or are you just publicly defaming an enemy of yours?
of course I could be wrong, duh. I wrote I think, not I know. I don't really feel like explaining the situation regarding sol to everyone on this site as I just don't want to have anything to do with that person anymore. he's a fifty year old guy that flirts with 17/18 year olds on this site, or attempts to. you have read the signature, he has made some other questionable posts. you seem like a very concrete person and I'm not gonna give you a detailed overview. you can click on the countless posts he has made over the last couple of days if you want to know more.
You wrote about a possible way of explaining the effect, but I'm suggesting you're wrong about the effects very existence. For starters, I think 80% of psychology majors identify as left leaning, and this site is full of people who identify as left leaning. Also... support for Israel isn't really a right wing position. Only very recently has this even been a contentious issue, support for Israel used to be practically universal in the US.
Well I see you've now removed the claim from your signature. So I take it you really did not have very good evidence to support that claim, otherwise I doubt you'd have felt the need to remove it.
50 year old flirting with 17-18 is certainly not appropriate, but that isn't pedophilia. Pedophilia is an attraction to prepubescent children. There are other names for people that are attracted to teens, forgot what they are. Still a problem if it's illegal, and a sign of a developmental issue regardless, but still pedophilia is its own distinct category. But 18 is legal in the US, and 17 is legal in other countries, so I agree it's not quite right but I really don't think it's the smoking pistol you think it is.
Last edited by DogOfDanger; 12-18-2023 at 12:03 AM.
I do not really wanna get dragged into a discussion with you about israel to be honest. I am pro palestine. that's all I really wanna tell you. I removed the signature because I am tired of this nonsense. I think sol has created 10 messages alone about me today and I stopped caring. he has send a suggestive picture to a young user and when I questioned why he rambled about how it's appropriate to initiate sexual interactions with 12-14 year olds as they are biologically ready, then he posted a bunch of other messages with similar stuff and how gays are mentally ill. I am not the kind of person that debates about definitions of things. you can disagree, I don't care. I started noticing that you are rather conservative and lost interest in you over time if I am honest, but I don't have any strong opinions about you. our worldviews just do not match. carry on
If I see a person arguing sex between a fully grown adult and a 12 year old is normal I'll shut them down pretty strongly. So at least we agree on something. No, really just wanted to know if you have actual evidence for your claim. You do need that. I know you don't think evidence matters, but it does.
Well your post suggests worldview is itself a valid basis for an opinion, but I don't think this is hardly ever the case since opinions pertain to particular topics and there's a reasoning that surrounds them which they can never be divorced from.
People nowdays would categorize me as socially conservative, but I'm still fiscally moderate to slightly left leaning. About 15 years ago I'd have been considered socially moderate, really the issue is the political activists keep moving the goal posts of what constitutes a social liberal or conservative. For example, in this thread you've just labeled being pro-Israel as a conservative position, 5 years ago that was the universally accepted position... So you've basically defined me into conservatism as I oppose various moronic social policies and viewpoints the press comes up with / you people agree with, but I have never really identified with that.
Anyway, whatever 'worldview' you identify with is not of primary importance regarding particular issues. For example, I never once bought into the anti-vaxx hysteria, but the stance I took on that was based on my reading the scientific literature as it was being published, it had nothing to do with my 'worldview'. If I was just mindlessly following a socially conservative worldview I'd have defaulted to being anti-vax. Good thing I was thinking through my opinions... As another example, I do not support the trans movement, because the entire notion is asinine and insane, and I can understand basic facts about biology and understand human nature. But too many lefties such as yourself have voiced their support for that movement, basically because they're agreeable people, they think to themselves "well I'm a lefty, I have to support this - this is what we all agree on now. I'm compassionate. Hey everyone look at me I'm a good person and compassionate.".
The Israel vs Palestine debate ultimately reduces to whether the conflict is about religion or colonialism.
In all these cases what matters is the specific detail surrounding the issue, not your broad worldview (in the case of Hamas you can just go read their charter / their own statements and read the Qu'ran to figure it out).
You can't dispense with words definitions any more than you can dispense with the entire reasoning process, and the concept of truth and meaning.
For example, the definition of the word pedophile: should a 50 year old who has sex with a 17 year old be given the same prison sentence as one who has sex with a 10 year old? Obviously not. Are they psychologically the same...? No... they aren't. So how do we express that difference...? We need... some label, or some kind of phrase, or thing we can say, to distinguish one from the other. Hmm... what do you call that thing. Oh wait, a word. That's what it is, a definition of a word.
The issue with you is you want to dispense with the reasoning process, and yet still hold an opinion. You don't even want to have to think about the definitions of words. But no, reasoning is what validates an opinion. If you don't have a rationale for your opinion then you do not really have an opinion, you just have a vague impression that's ultimately based on either speculation, or some broader worldview that's irrelevant, or agreement with some other persons opinion. Maybe it was the news, maybe it was... your parents, or society, or whatever it is.
Last edited by DogOfDanger; 12-18-2023 at 03:45 AM.
you are implying that I associate you with a bunch of other stuff because I think you are a conservative, when I personally do not group people together with specific issues based on their views. I just evaluate from an individualistic perspective, and your stance on vaccines and transsexuality has nothing to do with it. I just observed what you write here and then made an assessment for myself, but I honestly don't remember what it was. I am pro vaccine, and I also read scientific literature, but not as much, probably, as a day has only 24 hours and I don't want to live entirely in a theoretical world.
"I do not support the trans movement, because the entire notion is asinine and insane, and I can understand basic facts about biology and understand human nature. But too many lefties such as yourself have voiced their support for that movement, basically because they're agreeable people, they think to themselves "well I'm a lefty, I have to support this - this is what we all agree on now. I'm compassionate. Hey everyone look at me I'm a good person and compassionate.".
I do not know where you got that I support the trans movement. I think I got criticism here from other people for my view on the issue. from a typology perspective, I find it likely that it's related to high creativity and imagination of individuals, meaning that almost all trans people are likely Ni base types from my point of view, but I have obviously not interacted with every single trans individual, so it's an intuitive guess. I am against pronouns and I think it's ridiculous to expect the general population to adhere to them, and it seems like an ideology to me, on the other hand I also see that trans people are quite aggressively targeted online and offline, with many getting frequent death threats, which I think is insane, too. as they are generally more creative than the average person, I do feel sympathy for them, but overall the topic is just simply not a field I am all that knowledgable about, so most of the time I just remain quiet. I generally don't think it's very sensible to have many convictions in several complex fields, and you will mostly just enter ideology territory eventually. I personally don't even care about about all these sexual labels all that much, but I am straight, so maybe it's blissful ignorance, but I don't have any control about biological tendencies anyway. the only non-straight elements I would consider is a threesome with a friend, and I can watch non-straight media when it's artistic, and that's probably it. I am against Zionism, it's another ideology, and I am against the attacks of Hamas and the killing of innocent palestine civillians. the whole conflict is a complete mess and I think vex has pretty much said what I'm thinking, so I am going to end it here.
Another conflict to demonstrate that religion was a mistake
A trigger-happy Israeli sniper killed two worshipers at a Catholic church in Gaza: a mother and a daughter. In another recent incident, an Israeli tank fired at and badly damaged a Christian monastery.
https://www.vaticannews.va/en/church...li-attack.html
This follows the earlier bombing of the Greek Orthodox Church of St. Porphyrius (one of the world's oldest churches, built in the 5th century) as well as the bombing of the Arab Orthodox Cultural and Social Center (a community hall that houses most Christian activities in Gaza) — link.
To all the folks who subscribe to the "clash of civilizations" paradigm: Israel isn't only waging war on Islam.
If I've learned anything from following this conflict — if Israeli propaganda is in anyway well-calibrated towards its target audience in the West — it's that culture warriors badly want for there to be a kingdom of Prester John.
No, I did not say you supported the trans movement, I just used it along with the anti-vaxx movement as two very absurd examples of things political parties, each with their respective 'worldviews', have strongly pushed for... and which their constituent lemmings continuously push for... to make the point that worldview is not really a good basis for an opinion, yet it is often treated that way, just as you were treating it. But the specific details surrounding particular issues are a much better basis. Worldview, if there even is such a clearly defined thing, should be emergent for each person. So when you make a comment such as "I see you as a conservative therefor I ignore you" (paraphrased) these are the underlying premises of the comment, and it is just a very backwards and mindless way of thinking really. That is basically the point I am making. Really not about trans except just tangentially to show the real life absurdity.
Very sad that Palestinian civilians are dying, but there are unfortunately consequences for countries that elect tyrannical regimes who openly seek to destroy their neighbors / for populations that practice a religion which calls the people to war against their neighbors. I for one am hoping that the Palestinians can shrug off the brainwashing, but they won't be able to do that as long as Hamas is in power.
Last edited by DogOfDanger; 12-19-2023 at 03:51 AM.
Well, you really have no way of verifying your information any more than anyone else here. A person really cannot believe with confidence what they read about a war while it's happening, or even decades afterwards... propaganda is a huge part of any war. Especially a war where one side is vastly outnumbered and their entire strategy hinges on PR. Especially when the other side is a democracy full of social unrest. I saw you citing some civilian casualty numbers earlier, but the news cited those same statistics too, then mentioned they were put out by Hamas's own health and safety agency or something... Hamas has already been caught putting out propaganda - they fired a rocket into a hospital and blamed the Israeli military - at least according to the West. And why else did they build their tunnels beneath the hospitals...? It wasn't to protect innocent civilians. Do you believe the West is lying about that? Was it really Israel who fired the missile, was that Western propaganda...? Or was it infact Hamas...? And if you believe it was Israel, where is your actual proof of that? There is no telling, honestly, but for you to cite these articles about wartime casualties and specific incidents as if they are absolute fact... really just shows you're at best very naive / have no real understanding of war strategy and wartime propaganda, but probably so set on your particular viewpoint that you're willing to be intellectually dishonest. In any case, to debate specific incidents like this is relatively meaningless. What are you suggesting? Are you suggesting based on some particular incident, which we can't validate, that the entire operation should be called off? Because the Israeli military is a bunch of murderous, blood thirsty savages, and that Hamas are just victims in this barbaric mess, or what are you suggesting...?
I think you ultimately have no good solutions, but instead prefer to hover above the issue and moralize, it's ultimately useless and I'm not really sure why you do this - possibly because you feel you benefit from the self promotion, or possibly because you're a Muslim.
Meanwhile the US is not at war with Canada, or Mexico... Sweden is not at war with Finland. It must be a coincidence I suppose that the conflict so happens to be between the nation practicing fundamentalist Islam and its Jewish neighbor state. But no, couldn't possibly be religiously motivated, we'll just insist it's just a clash of civilizations because that most props up our argument...
Because if it were religious... it isn't Israel whose religion tells it to exterminate its neighbor and reclaim their holy land, that's just the Palestinians.
Last edited by DogOfDanger; 12-25-2023 at 04:06 AM.
I feel like I went into a time warp.
The mind is restless and difficult to restrain, but it is subdued by practice
-Krishna
The IDF are soldiers. I pray for the Palestinian people.
The mind is restless and difficult to restrain, but it is subdued by practice
-Krishna
The mind is restless and difficult to restrain, but it is subdued by practice
-Krishna
The mind is restless and difficult to restrain, but it is subdued by practice
-Krishna
ISRAEL has now murdered over 20,000 civilians in Gaza...
I think it's probably because neurotic/reality-detached people are the most likely to get into typology, and neurotic people are also the most prone to get into other rabbit-hole topics and listen to self-help gurus who more often then not peddle right-wing views. In communist forums meanwhile I've seen typology generally being rejected as reactionary for assigning people into fixed classifications that ignore how conditions effect people's personality.
The Gaza Health Ministry, which is controlled by Hamas, has given that figure... This has been pointed out repeatedly, but you continue to ignore this.
So why are you confident in those figures? What do you know that the rest of the world doesn't?
The reason you don't mention the source or question the statistics validity is it's useful for your argument. Proving that you will basically do / say whatever is required to justify your fundamental opinion.
I wonder whether your apparent concern for the civilians is genuine or if it's a similar ploy.
Anyway - no way of validating it, but even if it is true the number is on the low end as far as wars go, and pretty much nothing compared to the number killed in US-funded wars in just the last 10 years.
So what is your point then - that war should never happen? Is that the idea here, or what...?
Ideally war should never happen, but you're just indulging in fantasies and presenting them as policy proposals while not contending with the practical issues... which is why your moral outrage is not taken seriously, it is useless and really seems to be more about self-indulgence than solving actual problems.
Ultimately there are laws surrounding the declaration and conduction of war, and Israel is following those laws. Isreal has an international established legal right to declare war on Hamas in retaliation for Oct 7. No one in this thread has presented any evidence that would deny Israel this right, or that suggests Israel is systematically committing war crimes.
Ohhh look at me everyone, I'm so concerned, yet another war is happening, ... ahhgghh I'm such a good person it should never happen... Even though I've suggested no realistic alternative and I said nothing about the past dozen wars ~waves hands in the air~
Last edited by DogOfDanger; 12-25-2023 at 02:07 AM.
Why do you compare statistics of war dead in multiple countries in 10 years to statistics of war dead in one region in a few months?
_______________________
No one in this thread has presented any evidence that would deny Israel this right, or that suggests Israel is systematically committing war crimes.
So you didn't read the whole thread
I posted this exactly a week ago
And this is about the 1948 war an extra bonus
____________________
Side note : if this debate goes on for a long time I'll postpone responding to your response because I no longer have much time to spend on the forum, and this will continue for about two months
Souls know their way back home
I'm not talking about a combined statistic for multiple wars, I'm talking about multiple wars every one of which had a higher civilian death count, in some cases higher by 1-2 orders of magnitude. If you go back far enough there are even wars where tens of millions of civilians have been killed... (38 million civilians were killed in WW2 to be exact. Many of which were German civilians)
But again, I'm only making a hypothetical comparison of these statistics, because your statistic really is not comparable, since it was provided by the Hamas government and has not been validated by any neutral 3rd party.
Your article provides no actual evidence and names no sources, it just makes claims and refers to anonymous sources.. the article is also written by a journalist from Gaza, who claims that 4 years ago he founded an effort dedicated to raising awareness amongst Israelis of the Palestinians oppression. An activist journalist of this nature working from within Gaza is probably at least a supporter of Hamas, if not working for them or with them. Hamas does not strike me as the type to tolerate independent press critical of its regime... I also don't know why a journalist living in Gaza whose being critical of Israel would feel the need to keep their sources anonymous.
Again, this could very easily be war propaganda, or maybe it isn't... but either way this is simply not the kind of evidence that would be presented to an international court as proof of Israeli war crimes.
You are willing to ignore these problems with your sources / the lack of hard evidence because you've already reached the conclusion before the argument begins... you lead with your belief, the rest of the conversation is simply about you finding the most spectacular way to justify your foregone conclusion. That's not the process an actual court goes through, though - with a court there's a presumption of innocence and guilt is determined based on actual evidence.
If I had to guess I'd say you probably google searched specifically for your conclusion and found an article that simply reiterated it, and came in here and posted it as if it were fact.
This can be done to make an "evidence based" argument for literally anything. For every topic you can even think of there is some dumbass journalist that's written on article about it and gotten clicks based on it. So is that the standard? Any news article I can find on google, where a journalist makes claims in it, I can present as fact, and vuala all my arguments are fact based. Or do you believe there are no articles denying the claims of war crimes, or denials put out by the Isreali government? Or do you just ignore those articles and statements...? On what basis do you choose what to believe?
If you have actual evidence other than a random journalist saying something and referring to "the sources" feel free to provide it. Until then... keep trying
Last edited by DogOfDanger; 12-25-2023 at 11:13 PM.
I'm not Muslim. And even if I were, I wouldn't let it influence my opinion.
As for what I believe:
* Palestinians are (mostly) willing to compromise, whereas Israel is not.
* Israel bears (most of) the blame because it has systematically sabotaged the prospect of a two state solution. While very many Israelis do want a two-state solution and a peaceful resolution of the conflict, they aren't the Israelis who currently control Israeli foreign policy.
* Israel is putting itself at a disadvantage by warring against determined and resourceful adversaries. I don't suppose, though I can't know for sure, that Hamas/Hezbollah will be marching through Tel Aviv anytime soon, as Israel has a formidable military, but Israel could face permanent attritional war that includes costly cross-border raids, experience hourly terrorist attacks against its people and infrastructure, and fail to subdue a restive West bank. Such a situation could sap its economic potential, calcify its politics further in the shape of ultra-militarism and theocracy, and force its best and brightest to emigrate to the West — to countries that would eagerly take them in.
The Palestinian Authority, which controls the West Bank, doesn't practice fundamentalist Islam and is a secular organization; the West bank is still, nevertheless, being occupied and colonized by Israel. Previously, Israel was in conflict with the PLO (which led the Palestinians for decades before Hamas was even a thing), and the PLO was very much a secular organization.Meanwhile the US is not at war with Canada, or Mexico... Sweden is not at war with Finland. It must be a coincidence I suppose that the conflict so happens to be between the nation practicing fundamentalist Islam and its Jewish neighbor state. But no, couldn't possibly be religiously motivated, we'll just insist it's just a clash of civilizations because that most props up our argument...
Because if it were religious... it isn't Israel whose religion tells it to exterminate its neighbor and reclaim their holy land, that's just the Palestinians.
Casting the Palestinian cause as entirely "Islamist" (an ideology that hardly elicits sympathy) is a ruse — a ruse that is calculated to paint the Palestinians in the worst possible light, and it has the aim of obscuring the fact that the Palestinian revolt is a normal struggle for national independence (a struggle not too different from France or Poland's struggles against German occupation). If anything, it is precisely Israel's cruel suppression of secular Palestinian nationalism that has allowed fundamentalist Islam to fill the resulting vacuum.
Islam is the official religion of the Palestinian Authority. Again, this proves my point that you people will make up / say anything that you believe will win you the argument. Anyway, 85% of the population in the West Bank is Muslim, and 99% of the population in Palestine is Muslim, if you don't think Islam drives politics in these areas you are deluded. Practically every member of the governments in these areas is a Muslim, Palestine is one of the most densely Muslim areas in the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_the_State_of_Palestine
The Palestinian Authority (PA) does not have a constitution; however ... The Basic Law was approved in 2002 by the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC) and signed by then-President Yasser Arafat. The Basic Law states that Islam is the official religion
The PA requires Palestinians to declare their religious affiliation on identification papers. Either Islamic or Christian ecclesiastical courts handle legal matters relating to personal status.
...
Churches that are not officially recognized by the PA must obtain special permission to perform marriages or adjudicate personal status matters; however, in practice churches that are not yet recognized advise their members to marry (or divorce) abroad.
Since Islam is the official religion of the PA, Islamic institutions and places of worship receive preferential treatment according to the US Department of State.[1] In the West Bank and Gaza, the PA has a Ministry of Awqaf and Religious Affairs, which pays for the construction and maintenance of mosques and the salaries of many Palestinian imams.
...
The PA requires the teaching of religion in PA schools, with separate courses for Muslim and Christian students. A compulsory curriculum requires the study of Christianity for Christian students and Islam for Muslim students in grades one through six. The PA Ministry of Education and Higher Education (MOEHE) revised its primary and secondary school textbooks. A U.S. Government funded review of Palestinian textbooks concluded that the textbooks did not cross the line into incitement but continued to show elements of imbalance, bias, and inaccuracy.[1] Critics noted the new textbooks often ignored historical Jewish connections to Israel and Jerusalem.[1]
…
The PA failed to halt several cases of seizures of Christian-owned land in the Bethlehem area by criminal gangs. In many cases criminal gangs reportedly used forged land documents to assert ownership of lands belonging to Christians. Police failed to investigate most of these cases. In two cases police arrested and then released the suspects on bail and allowed them to continue occupying the land in question. There were reports this reporting period that PA security forces and judicial officials colluded with members of these gangs to seize land from Christians.
...
Rhetoric by Palestinian militant groups include expressions of anti-Semitism. Some Muslim religious leaders preach sermons on the official PA television station that included expressions of anti-Semitism. Among these, in May 2005, Sheikh Ibrahim Mudayri preached a sermon in which he compared Jews to "a virus, like AIDS."
...
Atheists and irreligious people in Palestine face discrimination and challenges not faced by religious Palestinians. Waleed Al-Husseini, an atheist blogger, was arrested by Palestinian intelligence agents and spent 10 months in a West Bank prison for making online statements criticizing Islam, during which he was repeatedly abused and interrogated. He later fled to Jordan and lived in Paris.[11][12] According to the Ma'an News Agency, while secular political beliefs are "not uncommon" in Palestinian society, "the expression of views seen as hostile to the dominant religions is viewed by many as incitement rather than free speech."[13]
Israel claims it moved to occupy parts of the West Bank in response to terror attacks / cells located in those areas. Attacks which may or may not have been government sanctioned, we really don't know, but Israel has a basic right to self defense regardless. But again, if this were true it would not be much surprise.
Last edited by DogOfDanger; 12-26-2023 at 11:53 PM.
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