Almost like if it was a conflictor, maybe even worse? Ever happened to you?
Discuss.
Bad duality - Do you feel the impulse to "destroy" a bad dual?
Almost like if it was a conflictor, maybe even worse? Ever happened to you?
Discuss.
Some foreword: "Destroy" means verbally, not any sort of physical harm. I have observed that sometimes same subtype duality can get really nasty, like enemies. Different subtype duality almost never turns that nasty, but it can be pretty conflictive too. The phenomena that I've observed that happens when duals don't match each other's expectations (I guess this is why it happens--not sure) is that they demean each other pretty nastily, using their strong functions to attack the PoLR and DS of the other. They do not end up harboring hard feelings for each other however, or these don't last very long, but a break of realtions can ensue.
Anybody have experience of fighting with duals?
Last edited by lavos; 09-09-2022 at 05:14 PM.
I have experienced this. Those duals weren’t “bad” people. I just really wanted to humble them and make them see how ridiculous they were being. So I trolled the heck out of them and watched in amusement. Sometimes, it actually worked.
With duals, you instinctively intentionally know how to get under each other’s skin. With conflictors, it’s usually mutual inadvertent annoyance that you can’t quite put a finger on. There’s a feeling of “silent judgment” and it’s hard to be fully vulnerable.
Saying that, I do have several LSI friends who I get along well with and one who I am casually dating.
Last edited by EIE H; 09-09-2022 at 05:28 PM.
For sure, I would mock their credibility within the group and how they were ruining the mood and they would pick apart the holes in my logic. It was all quite amusing in retrospect, but it’s not a good habit to fall into.Originally Posted by lavos
Your replies have been very informative. It seems it depends on the types of the duals in question how this 'negative dynamic' plays out when duals fight. In LIE-ESI case, it seems it plays out similar to what I'm describing, and in EIE-LSI case it seems it plays out like you are describing.
How does it play out for LIE-ESI?
yes
to bring their arrogance ignorance and selfishness down but this is hard. they resort to psychopathy/devaluing u or someone u care about so u dont get to argue with them. they just stop caring and are ready to send u to hell. or get very angry and think or do horrible stuff while thinking they are in the right about it.
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It happens when people are not familiar with the so called benefits of their dual seeking. The dual information might be seen as useless, weak, ect. I think it happens when some one has been jilted by a relationship, or from an upbringing outside of quadra groups.
It happens when people leave a relationship and become embittered. Some mocking, which is basically baggage from the previous relationship, gets carried forward. This is when people are not meeting or connecting based on individual merit, but by prior experience with IEs being manifested by the other.
I'd imagine this happens with aristocratic quadras frequently just by virtue of their nature, but I would have to study more.
Another factor I can think of: people being insecure. Sometimes this comes across as defensiveness and this might be directed towards the dual seeking.
"I can do it myself thank-you very much."
Another factor I can think of: people being insecure. Sometimes this comes across as defensiveness and this might be directed towards the dual seeking.
"I can do it myself thank-you very much."
A sort of "lady doth protest to much".
A similar thing happens when people are jealous, or envious.
"Look at that dumb jock meathead, I bet he has a tiny penis" (Se jealousy)
Or
"She looks like a bimbo with fake tits". (Se - Fe jealousy)
"I hate him because he is already married" (Fi envy)
"All he does is think about himself and relax and go fishing on the weekends like a loner" (Si jealousy, with Fi envy)
"He has way to many companies going and is only out for a buck."
(Te envy)
Lots of times there is covert jealousy here, or resentment as dual information is not freely given reciprocally.
"I hate that which I secretly love, or desire".
I've seen this many times and sometimes it follows socionics patterns. In other words I reject what I cannot have, or I am not. Preemptive psychology. It's far more common than one might think.
Mostly by criticizing. Gammas are very much into this sort of "destruction" by criticizing. The LIE will complain to the ESI about their lack of Ne and Te, and the ESI will bicker to the LIE about their lack of Si and Fi.
Examples:
ESI to LIE; "You are nerd with no life and no dignity!"
LIE to ESI: "You are an stupid airhead who doesn't understand anything!"
I have never argued with an ESI in any serious way. We sometimes disagree about things, but that leads to explanations and understanding, if not agreement.
However, I know a lot of LIEs and yes, most of them don’t give ESIs the credit that they deserve. I don’t think that I’ve ever seen an LIE explicitly accuse an ESI of being stupid, but I have seen an LIE roll his eyes when I suggested that the ESI we both knew was an extremely valuable person, and I’ve seen an ILI who was married to an ESI tell me, when he was upset at her, that she was irresponsible with money. (I’m filtering his response to leave out the screaming and the threats and the accusations.)
Personally, I think that any discussion which starts out with “You are…” is going to be negatively productive.
Much better is “When you do this, then this other thing happens, which bothers me because…”
Well, I think SLE males can sometimes feel an urge to destroy me lol. Even a nice one. I’ve had several mediocre dates with duals where they have said irritating things. I felt a need to get back at them which I tried to. I’ve felt a little mentally unsafe with them at times and I’ve told them about socionics as a distraction, fully knowing they will benefit from learning it exists and it may improve their level of morality. Usually I just don’t care about them enough to get back at them. There is no reason why you should like a random dual. I’m not sure I like spending too much time with them at work tbh.
I had one date with a dual who was cute but in the end repulsed me, (by the end of date two). I think I repulsed him too. At first I thought we had chemistry, but it quickly turned into a dynamic I could not explain. He was certainly hiding something. I felt sorry for him but I also knew he was capable of upsetting me- I don’t know if I brought it out it him. It was bad chemistry- it felt a little exciting to be around him, but he kept putting me down, without realising it. In the end I think he knew I thought he was inferior to me and he couldn’t stand it.
this is someone I would never dualise with- it’s odd because he seemed so nice at first (maybe not that odd). He was perfectly open to discussing moral issues but I could tell we clashed on something vital- he had a rebellious edge and I prefer men who have basic manners. I have certainly fallen for a rebel but they have to be a lot more charming
Two of the dates with duals were when I was recovering from Covid so it may have played a part. I was feeling emotionally vulnerable and sensitive and some SLEs can be insensitive to a person feeling physical or mental distress.
I would say I have learnt something from dating random duals I don’t even fancy. The conversation can be good but mostly it feels like an interview, but not as stressful as a job interview. It feels like you’ve met your equal and you have to prove it them, I suppose it’s a bit like challenging then to a duel..lol
Last edited by Bethanyclaire; 09-10-2022 at 09:23 AM.
Putting my response in spoiler tags because it's kind of long and rant-y but enjoy!:
This.
I found only two EIE duals in my life.
One of these two is a diabolical planner I (maybe) mistyped SEE for a long time, but I just had a friendship with her. She is the Meghan Markle type of girl: big picture oriented, wants all to love her, wants to apparently help people and strives for peace. She is very intelligent and know how to win people favour.
I've always wanted to reproach her for certain things she did to me, but she uses strategies to "make it uncomfortable" to do. She disappeared for years and seeing her again in the street of our town I did not want to resume old discussions and I pretended nothing had happened. She was apparently "normal", so I thought she matured. The next day she started doing more and more bullshit and I pushed her away again. I don't want to waste my time scolding her. She is this way and can't change her, nor she never interested me.
She can't accept I rejected her many times. She is the kind of girl that wants to be loved by every person and wants to f*** them.
I feared that all my duals could be like her, but then I met another EIE. She is similiar but more intense, artistical and loyal. Nothing to reproach to her. If I had the opportunity, I would just hugh her. Such a lonely soul.
Hmmm. I said earlier in this thread that:
What I just realized was that I was talking about all of my IRL interactions with my Duals. Technically, I haven't actually argued with them, but they generally don't particularly like me enough to see me as a possible partner.
Worse is my online interactions with my Duals. Whatever good there is about Duality doesn't seem to come across through text. Only the bad parts show up there.
When I first arrived at this forum after my divorce, I really didn't know anything about Socionics or my Duals, so after making a bunch of posts, I eventually got the courage together to PM a couple of the three or four ESIs who were posting here at the time. I wanted to know what ESIs were like.
They uniformly told me that my public posts annoyed them and that I should stop messaging them.
WTF?
So I stopped messaging them, but I continued public posting, sometimes with questions about ESIs, and then all of the ESIs took a dislike to me. Presumably just from the content of my texts.
I'll be the first one to say that I was a lot more screwed up then than I am now, and even now, I'm not exactly Mr. Normal, but the bottom line was that all of them disliked me.
Eventually, just through sheer endurance, I started interacting in the public forum with the ESI ashlesha, and that did not go well at all.
Yes, I think she wanted to destroy me.
I don't think the fault was with Duality, though. Rather, I think that I was a fairly broken person at that very low point in my life, and that translated into me being a very bad Dual.
Same
My IEI sister always wants me to take care of her Si and I dislike that a lot
Yeah , sometimes
Edit: a lot
Well we already know what I'm going to say about the how and why someone who would otherwise find themselves dealing with a very rewarding and mutually beneficial relationship might fuck it all up so hard it's downright tragic but someone else already posted it below.
Ya just described how it all goes down if one is suffering from attachment issues (i.e. an insecure person). The healthy valuers of a given IE will naturally appreciate and like what the other has to offer. Even in the more negative ones. Conflict is the only one I can think of where two people who have healthy attachment might still piss each other off to the point of thinking violence might actually be a good/reasonable idea (and there are many forms of violence mind you so no "pistols at dawn/physical violence" isn't the only way they'd both like it to go down even if it is mine personally Ceterus Paribus and why that's the case goes well beyond socionics) and even then if they're both open about the how and why it can still work out positively.
Pretty much any relationship can work if both sides want it to. If both sides believe it can and are willing to make the effort and try. Nuking your dual, hell, nuking anyone who is honestly and earnestly trying to make a human emotional connection with you is major evidence that you've got attachment issues. Learn what they are, how they manifest, and then try to fix it. Ya can. It's hard. Really hard. But it is absolutely worth the effort...
You annoyed me initially. It was mainly the overgeneralizations. Same thing happened with my LIE, for the same reason. Ahh, and your logic about people seemed really warped...that also annoyed me.
Thanks for the insight into your thinking.
I feel like the ESIs I know IRL have exactly the same reaction to me. It’s my 4D Ne and my 1D Fi, the latter which I compensate for by being super-logical.
When I first met the lesbian ESI-Se, I secretly fell in love and like with her, and I contrived to stay in touch with her so I could get more of what she supplied. I did this by buying more of her art (which I also liked). I think that she initially was merely grateful to have access to a river of money which she could dip into whenever she felt inspired to do art. Lol.
Initially, working together briefly on projects taught us both that we get the best results when we don’t try to interfere in the other’s area of expertise. We also learned that we are easy together, even though we don’t understand each other.
It wasn’t until ten years of this had passed and we started working together continuously on my house that she truly started seeing me, and she both didn’t like my philosophy, and felt good at being around me at the same time.
I overheard her talking to my son and she said that she feels really calm and centered when I’m around. But my son later told me that something I had said to her in passing had pissed her off for days. I have no idea what I said, but evidently it clashed with her world-view.
I think that ESI-LIE Duality works best when both individuals are working towards a common goal. If the goals are different, then the relationship is less likely to stick.
Unfortunately your friend sounds a little unhealthy, beyond the scope of normal for the sociotype. Maybe some growing up to do?
No. It goes against my values. When I love someone, I don't treat them that way. I leave them while wishing them well. It's called honor, respect, and protection (you protect what you love, even if it is from your own self). It is part of honoring the relationship that was there. All those years of being there for one another, etc...they aren't to be taken lightly and trampled on like it was all nothing. When someone was part of your life, your heart...you respect the relationship even when it fails or falls apart. You give it the closure it deserves. You bury it like a lost loved one. You don't spit on its grave as if they meant nothing to you. You don't betray the trust they once gave by weaponizing what you learned when they let you in. You don't make them think they were a fool to let you in, like you were some monster underneath it all the entire time and they couldn't see it. Least importantly but worth mention, you don't taint their memories of you. You grow the fuck up, suck up your pain that makes you want to "destroy" them, and act like an adult instead of lashing out like you're 10. You think about someone besides just yourself and how you feel, you don't act like you're the only one struggling in that situation. You command the same respect right back, because you deserve to be treated with the same care that you give. Anyone who doesn't give back what you give (even after they've been given patience and opportunities to grow into it) doesn't deserve what you have to offer. When you fight your inner demons off out of love for a person, expect them to fight off theirs, too. I don't put up with someone sitting there trying to "destroy" me; that is not someone who has my best interest in mind.
Last edited by Fluffy Princess Unicorn; 09-14-2022 at 09:35 PM.
Yeah, they are. Unfortunately they were not so lucky in life for various reason (family etc.), so they passed through a lot of bad experiences. I like EIEs in general and I still consider these two girls very special. Hope they find a way to be finally happy
I'm cutting a bigger hole in a wall in my house and I need a window to fill it, so I called a window installer and they sent out this guy to measure the opening.
He rings the doorbell and the first thing I think of is SLE-Ti. Trim body, thoughtful face, Good looking in a clean-cut way, looks a lot like @Northstar.
So he comes in and is all business and just gets to the point and measures the frame and checks the boxes and shows me the proposed work order and the price and I sign it and we're good to go. Smooth, efficient, no wasted moves.
But I notice he's not wearing a ring, and he's SLE and about thirty years old and at the rate that a lot of SLEs marry, he might never find someone, so I decide to tell him about his Duals so he can zero in on what he should be doing.
I tell him I'm divorced so he won't think I'm gay and I tell him that I've been dating for a few years and I've learned a lot, and incidentally, is he married?
He says he's not married, but he has a girl friend.
I tell him that it took me a few years to figure out what I needed in a relationship. Everyone is looking for someone in particular, depending on who they, themselves are.
I then proceed to tell him that he's the kind of guy who (and I describe an SLE here), and he just listens without comment or even blinking, and then says "Everything you said is true about me."
So I then tell him that his best match is something called an IEI, and that she's the most feminine type of woman.
He then says that he has a girl friend, and then he coughs. I ask him if he has a picture of her?
Amazingly enough, he takes out his phone and shows me a picture of a girl who looks like an IEI-Ni who is imitating a drowned rat. He says, with some embarrassment, "She's not single." This is the gentleman part of the SLE-Ti talking.
"You mean, she's married?"
"Yeah." He's clearly embarrassed.
"That's OK. My last girlfriend was married when I started seeing her. It happens. It's kind of up to the woman to figure out what she wants to do." Except he looks like he's a #8 and she looks like she's a #2 or #3, and I'm not talking about enneagram. Plus, she's married, so there might not be a great future there.
"She looks to me like she could be your best match, but there's some variation in the types and theoretically, you might have a better match with a woman who is more like one of the ones I dated a couple years ago. They're called IEI-Fe's, if you want to write that down." He did write that down.
"It's one thing to know that there is a best type of woman out there, but then you have to find a good example within that category."
"I get what you're saying,", he replies. Maybe he's thinking about women who cheat on their husbands, a topic which is never too far from the minds of 1D Fi guys.
"I have some pictures of a couple of your best matches on my phone." I start paging through my phone pictures, and come to an ESI-Fi and an ESI-Se.
"You and I are similar in some ways, but we're not close enough to date the same women. I tried to date your Duals, and they weren't having it. Instead, I dated these women." I showed him a picture of the last two ESIs I dated.
He studies them. "Those women look like a bag full of problems to me."
"Well, they are a challenge, for sure. But here's some pictures of your best matches." I show him two pictures of the two IEI-Fe females that I dated. Here's one of them: https://imgur.com/a/rDVQftc
"I see", he says thoughtfully. "Thanks. I need to do some research into this stuff."
"Just Google "Socionics, SLE, and IEI", and that should get you started."
We shook hands, and off he went.
Yep, that's me. LIE optimizer with 1D Fi. Breaking up relationships where ever I go.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 09-14-2022 at 10:41 PM.
[.
No. I prefer to focus my energy on bettering my own life, and also on accumulating money.
But my dual is EIE and I noticed them doing these kind of stuffs to me, saying the meanest words to me ever just to destroy me. This is also one of the reasons I've cut off ties with them.
doubtfuly
you mb F, for example
the same problem is for @lavos, who is clear F and his "duals" can be anything
> I noticed them doing these kind of stuffs to me, saying the meanest words to me ever just to destroy me
Besides types of those people are questionable, the common reason of a criticism is to change your behavior. Not just to inspire negative emotions in you.
> This is also one of the reasons I've cut off ties with them
If you don't see enough of the profit in relations with some people, you may _try_ to change people to get better ones.
Even when those would be duals, what is among strong traits to establish relations in which you'd feel good, - other traits, behavior of both and situations may oppose to feel good enough.
Other important trait of a duality - it gives good possibility to improve relations, when you dislike them. Duals (especially of opposite sex) is not often case to be meet, so it's good to try improve the existing.
Take into account, that IR theory is for conditions of irl, significant and informal interactions.
My dual is ESI. I've experienced big time dualization duality with an ESI-Fi woman, and I've had two ESI-Se friends (one male and another female) which demonstrates that I am LIE. I am a somewhat F-ish LIE though, I usually get INxx in dichotomal tests, and when I was in MBTI (before I realized I was Te-Ni which happened pretty quickly) I could see myself on all four INxx types, but especially INTJ and INFP. Which makes sense since I am E4 and E5.
I've also experienced conflict with SEI, Benefit with SLE and IEE, and many other intertypes. Not to mention too that I have a glaring +Si/-Se PoLR.
This is kind of funny coming from a ESE-Si. Why are you an ESE-Si? Multitude of reasons(I've said them before), but the main one is that you resemble LSI more than LSE (and you seem to use -Te/+Ti and not +Te). Even your nickname "Sol" tells of +Si.
Last edited by lavos; 07-26-2023 at 02:11 PM.
Then, the angel asked her what her name was. She said: "I have none"
@Sol LSE and ESI are very similar in the sense that they have the same PoLR (-Ni/+Ne). This means that neither LSE nor ESI know what anything "is". You by contrast seem to be fond of appraising what everything "is" or "is not".
Listen to this song for example, which demonstrates very clearly what having this PoLR means.
Please drop LSE typing, and embrace your true typing as ESE-Si.
Then, the angel asked her what her name was. She said: "I have none"
@lavos
look-a-likes resemble each other more than semi-duals, since they differ by only one dichotomy and have the same 2. & 3. function. also, that the intertype of semi-dual is with one having the suggestive as leading (+ opposite value & attitude of the 2. function) is arguably slightly more different in behaviour than one with the role, as not only is it weakest but also the opposite attitude (the inferior). depends on whether the commonality of I/E or values - both of which will produce similarities in behaviour - is perceived to be more decisive.but the main one is that you resemble LSI more than LSE
Last edited by nifl; 07-26-2023 at 02:39 PM.
Nope. I'm using advanced socionics here (and experience). The function usage is more similar in semi-dual.
Then, the angel asked her what her name was. She said: "I have none"
My parents marriage lasted under a year. EIE LSI.
It was prob values difference that caused poor understanding of each other, IDK.
He wanted things in his order, like his eggs cooked a certain way, strawberries on stuff, etc. everything just like his mother did for him, he wanted it that way.
Christmas when i was 3, he came over with a race car set, and my mother didn't have a hammer to pound the staple- u- pin to hold the tracks together, so she got a high heel shoe, and used the pump part like a hammer to pound the pin in, it flopped over, and in frustration she said,"why on earth would you buy a 3 year old such a complicated present?"
He stormed out of the house and went home.
It was doomed from the beginning and even years later nothing changed.
Black & white is a shallow divide ∕∕division is the color that multipliesx
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Abstract builds a soul, a house can never become a home without it ♀
A little better makes better more>
♦♦
If married to a dual, it would happen in the power struggle stage of the marriage. In any case, destroy is a bit much. A desire to humble? Certainly.
sure conflict can happen within 'duality'
and no
I wouldn't destroy even a conflictor
Sometimes you don't have motivation because you lack purpose.
Sometimes you don't have purpose, because you lack self-knowledge
Sometimes you don't have self-knowledge because you lack love
Sometimes you don't have love because you lack self-love
Sometimes you don't have self-love because you lack guess what? Ask Gulenko!!
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