Discuss.
Do you think socionics proves the existence of God and intelligent design?
Discuss.
I'm not even sure how it would count as evidence, much less how it could prove anything about the existence of any sort of divinity
“Things always seem fairer when we look back at them, and it is out of that inaccessible tower of the past that Longing leans and beckons.”
— James Russell Lowell猫が生き甲斐
Hint: if somehow socionics could show that these types that humans have are sort of archetypes that predate evolution.Originally Posted by AWellArmedCat
Evolution can't be "predated" as it's a natural process, not a discrete event that occurred in the past. Everything organic or otherwise that accumulates any amount of change over time is considered to be evolving. The significance of each accumulated change determines the length of time necessary to observe significant deviation from a given ancestor. For humans the accumulated changes are very small and difficult to observe until you view things on the scale of thousands of years. Make no mistake though, we are still evolving
“Things always seem fairer when we look back at them, and it is out of that inaccessible tower of the past that Longing leans and beckons.”
— James Russell Lowell
Okay, then that evolution is a directed process with already pre-established goals or results. Did the "idea" of, for example, a cow, exist before cows actually appeared on the Earth? What if it even existed before the universe came into existence?
Though I suppose these things are possible, Socionics really isn't a reason to assume any of this. Socionics imo is simply the best attempt at dividing people into discrete categories we've come up with so far. It's certainly not a divinely perfect system, so I don't see why us coming up with it is enough of a reason to posit anything divine
“Things always seem fairer when we look back at them, and it is out of that inaccessible tower of the past that Longing leans and beckons.”
— James Russell Lowell
That's a very interesting question. It is established that one of the most important factor of evolution is the environment and to be more precise the adaptation of a given species to the changes in the environment. Nature tends towards equilibrium and that equilibrium is ephemeral in a cosmic scale. There are and there will always be movements and changes, sometimes cataclysmic (a very interesting word) and changes from which a new cycle of life begins like mass extinctions which are, again, cyclical in nature. Now, I don't think that there is a pre-established or predestinate final form. Nature is an adept of the "try and error" method so to speak. The species "form" that will survive is the most adapted version to a given biotope, that's natural selection. A selection based on the ability, adaptability of a species to survive and ultimately to reach equilibrium that is to say the top of the bell curve in a given cycle of evolution. Equilibrium is the foundation of the formation of an ecosystem. That's the circle of life and to quote a line from Jurassic Park "Life finds a way".
Now, to the second part of your question : "What if it even existed before the universe came into existence?" Well, I guess that the answer is similar to the time travel questions : Can we time travel to the past ? and the answer is "no". Can we time travel to the future ? and the answer is "yes", in theory. What I mean by that is we can go backwards in time up to circa 13.7 billion years ago and postdict that the configuration of the universe in that point of time will eventually lead to the "creation" of earth and life on it included the cows etc.. But there is no way to predict those events from the same point of time (13.7 billion years ago) because of the unpredictable factor. We can predict the upcoming events only for a brief period of time before we lose the track of the probability of any events to unfold, it's not different from weather predictions in that sense. One event leads to another or several other events, we have to see (it coming) the event(s) before we can predict any development. However, since we know that some (local) events are cyclical in nature, (like mass extinctions) because those events kept repeating in the past at a given rate, we can predict without any doubt that another similar event (like mass extinction) is coming soon or later. I think that destruction and chaos are the norm in the universe and creation and order are the exception, equilibrium like I said is a cyclical and ephemeral state.
Apologize if I might sound obtrusive here, but the natural process doesn't necessarily imply that everything changes without considering enormous patterns behind it. And despite I don't doubt that the evolution needs time to be determined according to the said process, it's not really sensible to say that such process can't be explicated by the reasoning since the changes, no matter how small and detailed, they are apparent and therefore can be observed throughout a long period of time on earth since the evolution has the causality on it.
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Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel: "The history of the world is none other than the progress of the consciousness of freedom."
Which means nothing.
Hint: Socionics is a theory that isn't proven itself.
If you don't think Socionics is true, I can't help but wonder the following: 1) What are you doing here. 2) Why do you sport a self-typing.
Your thinking is very black and white here. Open your mind and you'll answer those questions on your own.
Socionics isn't true/false based on belief. It requires proof. Something that many who are faith based can't comprehend.
Whether or not a person thinks Socionics is true should have no bearing on the ability to find evidence it is true.
If you don't know how you'd disprove Socionics, your confidence in Socionics may well be faith-based.
A theory to prove another theory ? One must believe or be convinced that at least one of them is absolutely true. Do the organization of an ant's nests or a beehive prove the existence of God ? After all those insects "societies" are similar to our own society, there is a predisposition to an ant existence, a predetermined assigned task, a reason to a certain kind of bee to be ! Is there a similar thing when it comes to human societies ? Does each Human being has a predisposed "task" to accomplish or a predetermined purpose to contribute to the survival and development of the socion ? Socionics answers "yes" to those questions.
In the same order of things, Is the configuration of our solar system and the position of earth in that system unique in the universe or is it a predetermined natural order inherent to certain favorable conditions ? Did God needed all the universe Mass to justify the creation of our little tiny planet ? It's like saying "I need all the sand on earth to produce a single wine glass". In the end of the day, it all depends on our angle of observation. How do we make sense of the partial aspect of reality we can observe ? Somewhere in time we are the observed ones, an alien species might observe our solar system from a distant time and ask " Was there life in that long extinguished solar system ?". I don't know if there is a "will" or a conscious behind to the order of things, I know that we as a species have a power of projection and we can create a reason to everything. To me, there is too much of us in God's image for it to be different from us. We created God in our Image and that's maybe the only solid argument in favor of its non existence. God is too Human (it has human emotions and logic) to transcend the human condition, for it is part of it. God is a survival imperative, we need it as a whole, there is not a single society on earth who has not its version of it, be it a single God or an entire Pantheon, the darkness ( the unknown ) must be enlightened in order for us to move on.
It shows a human capacity to divide where divisions are not that tangible or exact. It also cures cancers.
Last edited by The Reality Denialist; 07-29-2022 at 11:35 AM.
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The opposite..although in some ways it has been a miracle to stumble on it
The existence of God is clear through sage-ship and synchronicity, an evidence that should be obvious, but since it’s not official in human colleges, many people close their minds to some possible types of evidence, like that one.
A better curiosity is like who is God, how old is he, where did he come from, what can he do, what is possible by God, is God evil, all of that.
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Just put all of your heart and faith in something, and see it come true.
Or better yet, honestly and compassionately seek God, connect, bind, and flow with emerald oceans.
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Socionics/ Jung shows clearly that there is an amazing differentiation of cognition, totally symmetrical. This comes from homo sapiens' evolutionary past. As humans developed different cognitive skills the psyche spontaneously arranged itself this way permanently.
It depends what you mean by "God". You could say that God is the force that made the psyche organize itself. Something caused it. Reality/ nature maybe.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
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Interesting...
Man grows used to everything, the scoundrel!
-Raskolnikov
Gnosticism.
With regard to the question in the OP, it depends on what you mean by "proof." Mainline Christianity, as advocated by Iranaeus, posits that God can be known through faith alone. Gnosticism, on the other hand, posits that God can be known through direct experience. Jung, in particular, explored the unconscious realm, and with reference to thinkers like Meister Eckhart, considered God to be analogous with an unconscious force. Like mainline Christians who consider God to be infinite, Jung considered the unconscious to be infinite. "As above, so below", as it were.
That said, I think that while theological premises don't necessarily follow from Socionics because Socionics concerns Jung's functions and information metabolism, Socionics may act as a gateway toward exploring questions of universal consciousness, psychic realities, etc. And I have read at least one website that leaves "information metabolism" up to a very objective interpretation, meaning that it seemed to consider certain forms of information as "objective", external to the self, like a metanarrative claiming a sort of universal consciousness.
Last edited by ILoveChinchillas; 07-30-2022 at 01:02 PM.
Fucking awesome reply
Man grows used to everything, the scoundrel!
-Raskolnikov
This is something lots of people have watched and remember. Just couple of weeks ago I met an IEE at a party who mentioned Jung's words in the video: "I know".
In this letter from 1960 Jung explains a bit more what he meant. I think it's important. Something to meditate about and let sink in.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
he knows there's a "god"
Last edited by chriscorey; 07-30-2022 at 04:40 PM.
Man grows used to everything, the scoundrel!
-Raskolnikov
God or "God", that is the question. After reading Jung's explanation in that letter I linked it is not entirely clear to me which it should be. quotation marks or not. I can in a way understand why one should write God, without quotation marks. I think Jung explained the reason why, even though he said that his idea of God is unconventional.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
It's not possible to prove that something was created from nothing.
nothing means there are no limits and no limits means no limits to realities and possibilities so nothing implies everything
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I know what "nothing" means when I used it in that sentence.
I've never heard that a lack of a substance makes it easier for it to exist.
Under my understanding of language, it is "everything" that is not limited.
edit: the first step to "proving" that everything was created from nothing would be to prove that everything is not eternal - which is not possible.
Last edited by Socionics Is A Cult; 07-30-2022 at 06:50 PM.
No.
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Socionics, alongside all esoteric stuff, is a magnet for people who believe in other esoteric stuff. At least one professional socionist (I forgot her name, but she's been on Russian TV, and she self-types as ILE) uses it to justify creationism.
No, because God used evolution and not intelligent design, people just have misconceptions about how evolution actually works. Species don't gradually emerge, they emerge suddenly, and when they suddenly emerge, it is due to environmental changes (relocation, cataclysms, etc.) When you look at Genesis, what does the Bible actually say? God split the lands and the waters in different ways, and then different kinds of plants and animals came in to fill them. That is exactly what modern science describes. Of course that sounds like hokum to people who are used to hearing certain types of religious people attempting to make scientific and pseudoscientific arguments, and there's still the Genesis 2 issue. I think the Genesis 2 issue is simple though, humans evolved from animals and "the beginning of the world" refers to the beginning of history (wer-ald, age of man) and not the beginning of humans existing at all. Humans clearly existed a long time in prehistory, but our oldest documented civilizations are definitely not older than Adam purportedly is.
Bring this idea to a debate about the existence of God and both sides of the aisle will laugh you off the stage, as will the socionics community.
For it to be valid evidence, you must prove socionics beyond a shadow of a doubt. Until that point all it can be considered is pattern-seeking ape brains formulating divisions to make sense of a set of items.
I don't care. I do have the evidence. If someone has an inability to detect the existing patterns, that's the subject's problem, not the problem of the ones that can spot the patterns. The fact that someone chooses to ignore an aspect of reality doesn't negate its existence.
Also, I'm sure socionics, or rather the phenomena that people have types, can be proven with a machine. It probably has been done already, just that maybe, it has not been released to the public. Each socionics function is an aspect of reality that is manipulated/monitored by a specific area of the brain. Again, I know this and I have no need of "proving" it to you (or anyone).
Alternative possibility: you have misinterpreted these "existing patterns" and assigned a value to them which isn't real.
The fact that you're leaning on a conspiracy theory that socionics has been "proven" but is hidden from us should be ringing a massive red flag in your head that you need to re-evaluate your confidence in this.
Entertain the idea that it is fundamentally incompatible with being definitively proven, in the same way you cannot prove the existence of any old adjective that can be used to describe a person's disposition. Even if you don't accept it as true personally, you can't reject it as an impossibility.
Socionics suggests at the very least that the human mind is purposive, and that its aims go beyond the purely material. It puts internal and spiritual qualities on the same footing as external and physical ones in a way that no mainstream theory does at present. That alone is enough to cast serious doubt on the physicalist hypothesis.
Does that mean that something bigger created the thing that gave the human mind purpose?
Mixing socionics and religion, I love it. There are some on here who have gotten a headstart on all of us, unfortunately.
The Barnum or Forer effect is the tendency for people to judge that general, universally valid statements about personality are actually specific descriptions of their own personalities. A "universally valid" statement is one that is true of everyone—or, more likely, nearly everyone. It is not known why people tend to make such misjudgments, but the effect has been experimentally reproduced.
The psychologist Paul Meehl named this fallacy "the P.T. Barnum effect" because Barnum built his circus and dime museum on the principle of having something for everyone. It is also called "the Forer effect" after its discoverer, the psychologist Bertram R. Forer, who modestly dubbed it "the fallacy of personal validation".
God =/= Religion . I'm not claiming that Brahma, Xenu, or YHWH created Socionics, only that it seems designed intelligently, presumely by some entity. And I have proof.
Are holes perfectly designed for puddles?
If you think that God is an inteliglent design of the universe in all its movement and that socionics hints at an intelligent design of people's mind and their interactions or something along those lines, yes.
If not, no.
Alright so, these quotes below are hardly relevant, but might give some shrewd perceptions about typological system as the proof of the God's existence and intelligent design. As for me, personally, despite I don't doubt the existence of God, intelligent design is something more than imaginable according to him, the Holy Omniscience himself, and I do think it might be the case as for the purpose. He, the God, didn't really tell the way humans were created but this question might lead to a conspiracy theory as for whether we were being codified during the birth or rather, being cloned as one and another to make the neat process of human digitalization on this occasion, but I wouldn't go that far to theorize since it might not be purposeful. And instead of this fruitless question, we have to ask the purpose for us being exist as humans instead.
Carl Jung on "Gnostic", "Gnosticism", and "Gnosis":
"And where would God’s wholeness be if he could not be the “wholly other”? Accordingly it is with some psychological justification, so it seems to me, that when the Gnostic Nous fell into the power of Physis he assumed the dark chthonic form of the serpent, and the Manichaean “Original Man” in the same situation actually took on the qualities of the Evil One. In Tibetan Buddhism all gods without exception have a peaceful and a wrathful aspect, for they reign over all the realms of being. The dichotomy of God into divinity and humanity and his return to himself in the sacrificial act hold out the comforting doctrine that in man’s own darkness there is hidden a light that shall once again return to its source, and that this light actually wanted to descend into the darkness in order to deliver the Enchained One who languishes there, and lead him to light everlasting. All this belongs to the stock of pre-Christian ideas, being none other than the doctrine of the “Man of Light,” the Anthropos or Original Man, which the sayings of Christ the gospels assume to be common knowledge." ~Carl Jung, CW 11, Para 380
"If mankind is the guilty party, logic surely demands that mankind should be punished. But if God takes the punishment on himself, he exculpates mankind, and we must then conjecture that it is not mankind that is guilty, but God (which would logically explain why he took the guilt on himself). For reasons that can readily be understood, a satisfactory answer is not to be expected from orthodox Christianity. But such an answer may be found in the Old Testament, in Gnosticism, and in late Catholic speculation. From the Old Testament we know that though Yahweh was a guardian of the law he was not just, and that he suffered from fits of rage which he had every occasion to regret." ~Carl Jung, CW 11, Para 408
"The doctrine that all evil thoughts come from the heart and that the human soul is a sink of iniquity must lie deep in the marrow of their bones. Were it so, then God had made a sorry job of creation, and it were high time for us to go over to Marcion the Gnostic and depose the incompetent demiurge. Ethically, of course, it is infinitely more convenient to leave God the sole responsibility for such a Home for Idiot Children, where no one is capable of putting a spoon into his own mouth. But it is worth man’s while to take pains with himself, and he has something in his own soul that can grow. It is rewarding to watch patiently the silent happenings in the soul, and the most and the best happens when it is not regulated from outside and from above." ~Carl Jung, CW 12, Para 126
"But science cannot possibly establish that, or to what extent, this unknowable substrate is in both cases God. This can be decided only by dogmatics or faith, as for instance in Islamic philosophy ( Al-Ghazzali), which explained gravitation as the will of Allah. This is Gnosticism with its characteristic overstepping of epistemological barriers." ~Carl Jung, Letters Vol. II, Page 54
"You overlook the facts and then think that the name is the fact, and thus you reach the nonsensical conclusion that I hypostatize ideas and am therefore a “Gnostic.” ~Carl Jung, Letters Vol. II, Page 245.
"Since the Apocalypse we now know again that God is not only to be loved, but also to be feared. He fills us with evil as well as with good, otherwise he would not need to be feared; and because he wants to become man, the uniting of his antinomy must take place in man. This involves man in a new responsibility. He can no longer wriggle out of it on the plea of his littleness and nothingness, for the dark God has slipped the atom bomb and chemical weapons into his hands and given him the power to empty out the apocalyptic vials of wrath on his fellow creatures. Since he has been granted an almost godlike power, he can no longer remain blind and unconscious. He must know something of God’s nature and of metaphysical processes if he is to understand himself and thereby achieve gnosis of the Divine." ~Carl Jung, CW 11, Para 747
Last edited by Metaphor; 08-02-2022 at 07:01 AM.
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Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel: "The history of the world is none other than the progress of the consciousness of freedom."
Unless you gonna write a new phantasy novel, any theory about god existing is just a way of entertaining your mind with a Ti - Ni loop hole.
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