Jan. 6th committee results

[FreelancePoliceman]

That's an uncharitable mischaracterisation of my beliefs.

I don't believe that liberal democracy is the be-all and end-all of political philosophies. The capitol (and its denizens, especially) almost certainly should not be sanctified. I don't care for sappy, sentimental propaganda, and I'm certainly not here to propagandize on behalf of politicians. What I do believe is that mob rule is far worse than the alternative, and that it is mob anonymity that allows provocateurs to flourish in the first place.

And that's not the issue. The issue is that we live in a panopticon ruled by people who have a long history of killing dissenters. And that panopticon lets people waltz right into the symbolic seat of government, even moving gates to allow them easier access, despite having plenty of advance warning.

As for "defunding the police", I've never agreed with that. Without the police, law enforcement would be taken over by the Boogaloo Boys or other self-appointed vigilantes. And instead of hundreds of Derek Chavins, we'd get thousands of George Zimmermans. We'd get Christian fundamentalists driving around with gun racks, enforcing arbitrary religious laws. The rich would hire private security to patrol their gated communities, fortified by walls and surrounded with barbed wire.

1) anti-police feeling was rising in the liberal left before this point,
2) it's telling that the people you believe the police mainly constrain are white supremacists and evangelicals.

The police are at least under civil control, and their actions can be constrained, monitored and disclosed to the public.

Even if you believe that's true of the police, the FBI, Secret Service, and RCMP for that matter are not constrained by public will, and this is by design. The public doesn't even know most of what they do. They are essentially accountable to no one.

I read the article. Why is Tarrio the only Proud Boy in a leadership role?

Tarrio is the chairman of the Proud Boys and the FBI had at least 4 other informants in top leadership.

I don't know who planned the riots (or whether they were even planned before Jan. 6th as opposed to happening spontaneously). I wasn't there. But putting immediate blame on the FBI seems a bit bold, especially given the fact that Trump has a gift for rabble rousing, has some rather angry followers (with some legitimate grievances, I'd add), and was already on his way out.

If you believe it was a spontaneous uprising you have to wonder why the police let the protesters in, why there was so little security, how the protesters unlocked doors locked with magnetic locks, and why the FBI has refused to answer any questions about its involvement with the event. The involvement of intelligence is the easier explanation; resistance to that comes only from the fact that that has a lot of implications about how politics operates in the developed world.

[xerx]

And that's not the issue. The issue is that we live in a panopticon ruled by people who have a long history of killing dissenters. And that panopticon lets people waltz right into the symbolic seat of government, even moving gates to allow them easier access, despite having plenty of advance warning.

1) anti-police feeling was rising in the liberal left before this point,
2) it's telling that the people you believe the police mainly constrain are white supremacists and evangelicals.

Even if you believe that's true of the police, the FBI, Secret Service, and RCMP for that matter are not constrained by public will, and this is by design. The public doesn't even know most of what they do. They are essentially accountable to no one.

No!! I don't believe that police don't target the Left. In fact, I have a strong memory of police violence against Occupy Wall-Street protestors.

My point, and my only point, is that alternatives to police are less accountable and less reformable. Even the FBI has to respond to freedom of information requests; and more than that, because the police and FBI are centralized institutions, they contain a chain of command at which specific criticisms can be aimed. Specific wrong-doers can be named. There is a public scandal surrounding unlawful activity by these institutions.

That's more than can be said about KKK vigilantes, who drive around with gun racks as self-anointed agents of God, who don't belong to a structured institution that keeps records, and, assuming that they even cared or bothered to investigate, can choose to completely ignore the actions of rogue members.

Government is certainly more accountable than private security corporations. Which group of investors will hold them accountable? Hint: it's not plucky Left-wing activists.

Tarrio is the chairman of the Proud Boys and the FBI had at least 4 other informants in top leadership.

If you believe it was a spontaneous uprising you have to wonder why the police let the protesters in, why there was so little security, how the protesters unlocked doors locked with magnetic locks, and why the FBI has refused to answer any questions about its involvement with the event. The involvement of intelligence is the easier explanation; resistance to that comes only from the fact that that has a lot of implications about how politics operates in the developed world.

I'm out of my depth when it comes to dissecting these specific details. I don't have a perfect understanding of the capitol's security procedures. I don't know the exact role of the Proud Boys.

But I'll say this: Any "just so" story can be built around these facts in order to accuse literally any organization, not just the government, of conspiracy. An FBI conspiracy is certainly a possibility, but it is not the easiest explanation. The easiest explanation is that some pissed-off people were moved by inflammatory rhetoric.

[FreelancePoliceman]

No!! I don't believe that police don't target the Left. In fact, I have a strong memory of police violence against Occupy Wall-Street protestors.

My point, and my only point, is that alternatives to police are less accountable and less reformable. Even the FBI has to respond to freedom of information requests; and more than that, because the police and FBI are centralized institutions, they contain a chain of command at which specific criticisms can be aimed. Specific wrong-doers can be named. There is a public scandal surrounding unlawful activity by these institutions.

That's more than can be said about KKK vigilantes, who drive around with gun racks as self-anointed agents of God, who don't belong to a structured institution that keeps records, and, assuming that they even cared or bothered to investigate, can choose to completely ignore the actions of rogue members.

Government is certainly more accountable than private security corporations. Which group of investors will hold them accountable? Hint: it's not plucky Left-wing activists.

Activists weren't really who I meant. You don't need much surveillance to keep them in line. Just have someone accuse one of them of hating Jews or transsexuals and they fall apart. Or give them drugs.

The FBI's response to FOIA requests can be and often is just "no." The FBI and CIA also have a history of destroying records. If the records of any wrongdoings are kept secret or destroyed, and nothing comes of it when they are destroyed (for instance, the CIA's destruction of tens of thousands of documents relating to MKULTRA, a project we even know about because the CIA mislaid some documents it meant to destroy), what is the functional difference between intelligence and the KKK except that the KKK tries not to cover its tracks? The CIA can sell drugs, control mainstream media, torture people, a branch can ""go rogue"" and begin selling child prostitutes, or the FBI can commit political assassinations, and nothing ever changes. Why would it suddenly begin to change? The public didn't hold these organizations "accountable" before; it's not going to because of some sense of moral outrage. And the fact of the matter is that it can't. Klansmen in a truck can at least be shot back at.

But I'll say this: Any "just so" story can be built around these facts in order to accuse literally any organization, not just the government, of conspiracy. An FBI conspiracy is certainly a possibility, but it is not the easiest explanation. The easiest explanation is that some pissed-off people were moved by inflammatory rhetoric.

No one is saying that the mob wasn't riled up. The problem is that their being angry doesn't explain how they got inside the Capitol.

[xerx]

Activists weren't really who I meant. You don't need much surveillance to keep them in line. Just have someone accuse one of them of hating Jews or transsexuals and they fall apart. Or give them drugs.

The FBI's response to FOIA requests can be and often is just "no." The FBI and CIA also have a history of destroying records. If the records of any wrongdoings are kept secret or destroyed, and nothing comes of it when they are destroyed (for instance, the CIA's destruction of tens of thousands of documents relating to MKULTRA, a project we even know about because the CIA mislaid some documents it meant to destroy), what is the functional difference between intelligence and the KKK except that the KKK tries not to cover its tracks? The CIA can sell drugs, control mainstream media, torture people, a branch can ""go rogue"" and begin selling child prostitutes, or the FBI can commit political assassinations, and nothing ever changes. Why would it suddenly begin to change? The public didn't hold these organizations "accountable" before; it's not going to because of some sense of moral outrage. And the fact of the matter is that it can't. Klansmen in a truck can at least be shot back at.

No one is saying that the mob wasn't riled up. The problem is that their being angry doesn't explain how they got inside the Capitol.

I'm not here to defend intelligence agencies, as intelligence agencies have carried out all kinds of nefarious activities. Some of them should even be prosecuted for violating the 4th amendment (if you want to talk about "defunding the NSA", I'll listen). But not every big event was caused by some hidden hand.