I was fairly confident in my intelligence up until adolescence, during which time I took an IQ test, and everything spiraled down from there.
I was fairly confident in my intelligence up until adolescence, during which time I took an IQ test, and everything spiraled down from there.
IQ tests are a waste of paper.
How exactly did it come to you?Originally Posted by MysticSonic
To MysticSonic:
I have completely re-read this post, and have come to recognise certain similarities between you and I. Your behaviour seems to describe me well. The more I look at the second photograph, the more I see something of myself in you. But that may purely be speculation, and that we may just share similar types.
I can see certain signs of myself in the photograph besides VI. For example, your nails. They are a little dirty and a little rough (which is no criticism). Your hair doesn't seem to have a particular style (although you have just have hair that looks good naturally). Something of a disinterest in physical processes gives me the impression of at least an intuitive, quite possibly Ni, but I'm not sure.
The questions you are asking, about the differences between INFp, INTp and INTj are the same questions that I am asking. So perhaps we could share ideas to see whether we could identify each other.
I know that some other members of this board will inevitably groan and wonder whether we need to go through another 4-page 'Need help in defining type' post, and I actually wonder how I would feel if we did a second such post and came up as INTj yet again - I would feel perhaps as though I had put you to unnecessary trouble, and consequently a little ashamed.
Perhaps this is The Critic's pedantic and spiritual nature at work with me?
"How exactly did it come to you? " Just as I stated, inuititively.
"I have completely re-read this post, and have come to recognise certain similarities between you and I. Your behaviour seems to describe me well."
Which behaviours, exactly?
"I can see certain signs of myself in the photograph besides VI. For example, your nails. They are a little dirty and a little rough (which is no criticism). Your hair doesn't seem to have a particular style (although you have just have hair that looks good naturally). Something of a disinterest in physical processes gives me the impression of at least an intuitive, quite possibly Ni, but I'm not sure. "
My parents nag me incessently and without end about my appearance, altough such nagging generally falls on deaf ears. My concerns about my looks are so miniscule that it borders on pathological, as my parents like to believe it to be. While they comment on how this behaviour is just driven by the desire to be "different', I merely equate it to a desire for simplicity, to cut out all unessential actitivies within my day and only partake in those that I have some sort of interest in or are, essential.
"The questions you are asking, about the differences between INFp, INTp and INTj are the same questions that I am asking. So perhaps we could share ideas to see whether we could identify each other. "
I generally have this sort of fear, the fear that the perception of myself is distorting my conclusions and making them flawed, and it is this fear that has driven me all my life; that my egotism in some way will affect my objectivity, which thus makes me concerned about my sense of self. This has lead to an obsesion with certain typological systems, such as the Enneagram, and obviously, Socionics. I feel as though if I know how to rid myself of this bias, I will achieve some sort of intelllectual feat, that will help me see things more clearly. My goal is to understand these perceptions, and change them, that way I can understand the world around me more clearly.
Could that be one of the manifestations of Ti as an inferior function, or...what?
No - how did it feel like?
Were you sitting, thinking about it, and then suddenly 'got it' or did it come via a logical process of reasoning?
I find that my ideas come in flashes. I will be sitting, idly pondering that subject of, for example, how an INTj's Te may manifest, suddenly an idea pops into my head - and I come to my point on the INTj uncovered.
The initial idea just "came to me" when I was thinking about the subject, but then I went on to support my idea with logical reasoning.
I'm bad at typeing. But here it goes. I think ,that you are extroverted and irrational+ NT= sanguine temperament + NT style of thinking= ENTp. Why do I think that? I know, I am bad at V.I, but however, Extraverts look guragously into the world around them. Their faces are like they pay attention, what's going on around them.Their eyes are on objects. Their eyes are seing the world not the images of their thoughts. Extraverts expressions are feedback to the colluctor. Intorverts are little bit shy, they have images on their mental eye, they make the expression that with little delay they come to understand, what's going on around them. If you didn't at the time have extroverted moment, then in my oppinion, you are probably extravert.
Any thoughts?
And I'm sorry again about my very bad and rough English.
Can I have one more general consesus upon what my type might be?
MysticSonic, what did you test on the following tests?
www.socionics.com/sta
http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp
http://socion.hotbox.ru/MT-English.zip
http://www.socionicsdating.com/personality_test.shtml
I think you are being a little too intense about this, objectivity goes hand in hand with open mindedness. It's usually pretty easy to narrow yourself down to two types, which types are you sure you aren't?
-Someguy
I don't believe in psychometric tests. The dillema with typing one's self obviously shows that either system is flawed, or the tests are flawed, where I favor the latter position.
All I know is, is that I'm an inuitive, and most likely introverted. However, that's about it.
On tests
Indeed, I quite agree. Tests rely on external authority and create a false sense of confidence - and the four scales are singularly poorly suitable for typing. If there is anything of real value in socionics it should be possible to lay the theory bare for everyone to plainly see what their type should be.
Having said that it does all start to look pretty frustrating. In terms of reliability socionics is still pretty much in its infancy and there seems to be precious little firm and solid theoretical ground to build on - just a wealth of competing and often rather incompatible theories with little empirical backing.
Perhaps I can list some of my character traits?
1. I'm stubborn as a mule. In fact, I don't generally see myself as stubborn, intellectually, but when it comes to my own morals I stand firm in the ground. And as such, I am often termed as a rather bizarre person, a "character", "different", and even a "wierdo". You would expect such names I suppose from behaviours such as complete lack of hygeine other then dental, and an organization system so horrid, you wonder how I even pass school. And, due to this, and my often incessant insistance upon the static nature of these habits, whether or not they are static by choice, gets me labeled "stubborn", most commonly by my parents, whom just wish I would comb my hair.
2. I'm an outspoken man when it comes to intellectual matters. I'm a left-wing anarchist whom inists that such social restrictions as the compulsory nature of schools within the country, and the illegality of marijuanna is silly, most especially the illegality of marijuanna, due to the fact that we are spending so much money "fighting" such crimes. Of course, I suppose that the term "anarchist" is a bit of a misnomer, as I don't expect a complete lack of hierarchy within a system, just merely a more equal representation of the individual, and with that a more free society in terms of restrictive laws upon our behaviour and acts, such as the illegality of homosexuality.
3. I'm not some sort of "inspired" individual whom, through various forms of art work, "expresses" such inspiration, as I am artistically retarded, most especially visually. Others have commented upon how I write, yet my ability to construct a poem is nill, and non-existant, unless you wish to read a technical poem which, generally, has no life whatsoever. However, I'm also not some sort of cold "rational" individual whom habitually restricts himself to the boundaries of rationality, despite my attempts to do so. I am a very "giving" person, although I am naturally effussive nor am I naturally empathetic, although I feel, for some reason, some moral compulsion to be so.
"In terms of reliability socionics is still pretty much in its infancy and there seems to be precious little firm and solid theoretical ground to build on - just a wealth of competing and often rather incompatible theories with little empirical backing."
No wonder abburdlen refuses to believe in Socioincs.
From a purely VI standpoint, you look remarkably like an INTj.
Note the chin and wideness of the face. INTjs often have a rounded face with a small distance between the mouth and chin. Also, the chin is usually pointed outward to form a kind of ball-chin, if I may use such a term. Plus, the eyes look subdued and blank, and the eyebrows are widely-spaced and quite thin and faded, all characteristic of INTjs.
Now that I think about it, you look remarkably like a kid in chorus who I can now assume is an INTj.
And besides, only an INTj would sit at a computer desk and argue about something for four pages when it could have been solved with one post. Sometimes I wonder if you INTjs say things just to hear yourselves speak.
Your Quasi-Identical INTp friend,
Cone
Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)
Oh and by the way, if you guys need an INTp's input at any time, I'm right here for you. I predictthat this will be a quite gratifying experience for all of us.
Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)
Yes I agree. One question for Cone(yes, offtopic). Do you thinkis a tendency towards behaviorist views? Do you have behaviorist views and do those conflict with interest in typology?
I've seen so many variations in behaviors of like types, I can't help but have some behaviorist views. I consider my view to be one of a Socionics/Social-Cognitive Learning view. You at first start with Socionics, then you explain away the differences with Social-Cognition.
If
Oh, and by the way. I don't believe in subtypes, as they are nothing more than extraneous theories on trying to classify one's stages of life into biologically-based temperaments. For one thing, personality is one half inborn and one half influenced by the environment. You can fall into any subtype during your life at any time, and they will change. So why keep inventing theories, people, when the explanation was right in front of your faces all along? (No offense to you forum users. I'm just yelling at the Socionics scientists who come up with this stuff.)
Your Quasi-Identical INTp friend,
Cone
Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)
Good god Cone, I agree with so much you said I have a strange feeling somethings wrongI've seen so many variations in behaviors of like types, I can't help but have some behaviorist views. I consider my view to be one of a Socionics/Social-Cognitive Learning view. You at first start with Socionics, then you explain away the differences with Social-Cognition.
If
Oh, and by the way. I don't believe in subtypes, as they are nothing more than extraneous theories on trying to classify one's stages of life into biologically-based temperaments. For one thing, personality is one half inborn and one half influenced by the environment. You can fall into any subtype during your life at any time, and they will change. So why keep inventing theories, people, when the explanation was right in front of your faces all along? (No offense to you forum users. I'm just yelling at the Socionics scientists who come up with this stuff.)
Your Quasi-Identical INTp friend,
Cone
You at first start with Socionics, then you explain away the differences with Social-Cognition.
Exactly my POV if I understand you right. Information Metabolism at first, then behavioral personality development afterwards. That's why I also have dismissed subtypes and won't put them on my site. They're just stages of actual personality development(not personality type development).
Your pic is bad, but my V.I say, that you are ENTp. You have the forehead of the Ns. S are little bit serious, Ns forehead looks, like they take everithing more easy. Your cheaks are pale, Fs have more merriness in their lips and cheeks. Ts cheeks and lips look as they are in thought. Your eyes are Es. Es have courage ,when looking. Is eyes are little bit shy and more in orbit. Your neck is P. Ps (irrationals) have long necks, Js (rationals) have strong neck. Ns olso look in live ,like they ara trieng to be at everiwhere.Their gate is as if they are flieng. S move self-confidently.
Vote.
Nice to see you doing voting in here. Usually the most popular answer quit a lot of times tells us the accurate answer. But I can't vote untill I have some things clear. I'm in between you being INTp or ENTp. They are by lookings very similar (and IMHO, quite charming). Tell me, do you like to be popular and to be in good list? The thing is , that I think that being popular and apriciated by evrione is a Gamma value.
ENTP or INTP
Please, do not oversimplify things. Do keep in mind that ENTP for example corresponds to:
Oldham Style: Inventive
Basic Pleasure: Recognition
Basic Fear: Obscurity
And may thus potentially suffer from:
Disorder Perspective
The personality disorder which is a pathological representation of the Inventive personality type is the Compensatory Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
Basic belief: I must attain a position of distinction or merit. Thinking strategy Pretension.
http://www.the16types.info/types-ENTP.php
These Oldham's styles may still be controversial and it is not quite one-to-one match to the socionics types, but I would say that both theoretical reasons and practical observations support the view that they are genererally correct - and the sooner socionics accepts them the better.
MysticSonic, usually the introversion/extroversion dichotomy is fairly easy to determine, what is your own opinion? Do not make it too complicated, but what you could still consider is the direction of "the hidden agenda". Usually it helps to tell the highly sociable INTPs and shy ENTPs apart pretty well. ENTPs need emotional uplift from others and can be quite inventive in devising ways to make others give it to them, David Schwimmer, Ross Geller on Friends, is a good example. INTPs again: It is important for an INTP to be involved with someone, to have an object of affection, to like people. Bill Clinton is an extreme example, but generally INTPS want to be kind and friendly, but can find it difficult to do it naturally.
I voted INTP, btw.
It's interesting, from what you say in your very first post, MysticSonic, you enjoy the company of ENTps and INTjs. I personally cannot stand to be around any of these types (except for one INTj whose very intelligent, but even he can be a little discouraging.) I find ENTps to be too imposing, too critical of my behavior (they always tell me to "keep my head up", "you're too thin", etc.), and too immoral. INTjs always seem to have this problem with people, like "he's an idiot", "they are idiot's", "I don't like this person." I can't really talk to these types, as I have no idea what to say.
Your INTp friend,
Cone
Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)
Oh, yeah, I voted INTj, like always.
Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)
MysticSonic
Voting can make things only more confusing since there is rarely any agreement, and how could there be when none of us have even met you? The issue of your type is something you should be able to decide on your own, but frankly I was kind of thinking of putting up a poll on your type as well. :wink: When you have tried everything else, you have nothing left to lose.
Your area of creativity deals with known facts and systems.
You are sharp and you know how to argue. You are a good skeptic. You are perceptive because you are able to draw information from many sources and apply them the the system at hand(without straying like an ENTp).
i deduce,
INTp
but you're young and are still discovering your place in this world. but indecision usually means P, not J.
P.S.
I was the one that made the poppycock remark. sorry if it offended. didnt mean it to.
Too immoral??
I'll have you know I go to great lengths to remember ethics in my dealings. I've had my antisocial tendancies under a tight rein for years now! :wink:
Entp
ILE
An interesting fact is, that though we all take MysticSonic as NT type, we have never discust the chanche him being ENTJ actually.
I voted infp. There's an emotional component to MS posts. They are longer posts, too, which seens to indicate introversion. I've seen MS settle disputes in the forum. These things say infp to me, but hey I'm probably wrong.
Entp
ILE
Edited for gayness.
Edited for gayness.
Actually, you would be amazed on how much I do believe you. Keep talking (in my "Skeptics, eh?" topic of course.)
Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)
You know, I think I might change my decision on your type, MysticSonic. For some strange reason, you remind me of LevKamensky.
Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)
ESTP uncovered
INFP is certainly a possibility. One thing you could still do is to carefully read this ESTP uncovered by Sergei Ganin. If you are an INFP you should never get tired of the kind of stimulation this female ESTP would provide. Is she perhaps deep down what you are dreaming of, or would you feel rather uncomfortable having to constantly reassure her of your love?
This is of course presuming the intertype relations can be trusted...
ESTP uncovered
A female ESTP comes home...
- Hey, I'm home!
- Cool!
- Don't you want to come and give me a kiss?
- Yeah, in a minute!
- Is something wrong?
- No, nothing's wrong!
- Are you not happy to see me?
- Of course I am happy to see you!
- So why don't you want to come then?
- I do, let me just finish something first!
- Is it more important to you than me?
- Oh, please, don't start!
- You don't love me, I know!
- Of course I do, don't be silly!
- If you loved me, you wouldn't do this to me!
- Do what?
- This!
- Just because I can't drop everything right this second, I don't love you?
- Not this!
- Then what?
- You don't want me anymore!
- What? Where does this come from?
- You should know better!
- Give me at least a hint!
- See? Now you are mad at me too! You hate me!
- I am not mad at you and I don't hate you! Now stop it!
- And you don't love me either!
- I love you, I love you, I love you! How many more times I have to say this?
- You don't mean it!
- I love you and I mean it! Now stop this nonsense, I have had enough of it!
- Maybe you have had enough of me too?
- Maybe...
Female ESTP breaks down in tears...
http://www.socionics.com/prof/estp2.htm
That was the greatest uncovered I've ever read. My mom didn't think it was very funny though...
Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)
As one final conclusion based purely off of V.I.:
INTj. And your friend's an INTj also.
I'm saying that with 100% confidence.
Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)
Sorry to bring this topic back up again, but I have to know...
Did you ever agree on a type for yourself, MysticSonic?
Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)
Eh, no, not raelly.
Ok, then. I have mounds of proof that you are an INTj (not V.I. stuff), so if you want to hear it, just speak up.
Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)
Sure.
Let's go back to the beginning of your topic.
I know a couple of 'dead' ENTps who talk very softly, like they are stoned. But other than that, you are probably right.I can quite readily fend off any claims of my dominant function being Ne, as I do not possess and affable manner
Introversion and thinking.and often maintain a VERY large psychological distance between others until I have assessed them for about, at the least, a few days, unless apporached first
An INTj would be able to handle people better than an ENTp or INTp would, and 'losing emotional connections with others' is definitely an INTj trait and also an INTp trait. But like the ENTp, INTps often times don't know when to get 'close' to a person, i.e. they will have avoidance reactions towards people they have previously met in a very comfortable atmosphere. INTps need to protect their Fe, the fear of rejection.I do not share the same uncertainty in my ability to handle others that the ENTp has, although I do have the aspect of losing emotional connections with others, even those I hold most dear.
INTps tend to be very sensitive to disagreement of their behavior by others, especially by strangers. If an INTp is misbehaving and a stranger directly expresses their disagreement, the INTp may shut down almost completely for awhile, obsessing over the thought. This happened to me just last weekend: My ISTj cousin and I were running down the steps in a library and someone told us to stop. I couldn't get the thought of that guy out of my head for awhile, and I was very quiet for most of the car ride home. My ISTj cousin, however, seemed to pass it off quite easily. This also happened to another INTp: he was moving about down in the auditorium in school and a teacher told him to get up into the balcony. Usually being a quite 'extroverted' person, he didn't talk for about 10 minutes straight.I am, at times, sensitive to others opinnions of me, and I do certainly try to "hide" my emotions, but people also say that I appear cold and indifferent and that I don't "give a **** about what other people think", and in fact think of me as bizarre.
This sounds like extreme Ti (you're still quite young.)Also, I have a sharp sense of justice, which is actually one of the many reasons other think of me as bizarre, as I tend to, at least I try to, avoid doing that which is senseless and meaningless, such as brushing my hair or changing my clothes often, as I see no consequence of these actions beyond the social stigmas that might come along with such behaviour.
Very true, Bear, but like I said before, INTps tend to have avoidance reactions towards less-known people. MysticSonic seems to have a little more control over the situation than I do.
An INTj is very likely to do it on purpose...They try not to show their emotions also, INTJ is not likely to do it on purpose.
Not to pick on anyone in particular, but when you do V.I. on someone, you must, must throw away any subjective influences and decisions. Otherwise, you come up with a bunch of useless type guesses. (That's why it's great to have Te.)Secondly - your eyes in your picture. They appear to be dreamy, deep, dark, sleepy, or far away, I can't quite pinpoint which. This seems to infer that you are an Intuitive. It also seems to disprove the theory that you are an INTj. I believe that INTjs do not have dreamy eyes, but have a piercing look (please, anybody, correct me if I am wrong).
*throws INFp out the window*Oh lord, I would never want anyone to depend on me. And I do enjoy the company of ESFps very much so, for the same reason you said; they cheer me up.
Funny thing about this...my INTj cousin will often times look like he can't do something new to him, i.e. he will screw it up badly, and you often wonder if he's doing it on purpose. Then the next day, he's able to do it even better than I can!Complete lack of self confidence in all of my abilities.
Actually, indecision usually means Ne as a creative function. INTjs and INFjs are quite indecisive in everyday matters. People with Te are able to make quick decisions if they need to.
Not quoted verbatim, but I can't remember where I heard you say this! Anyway, it is this statement and this statement alone that proves that you are an INTj and not an INTp. This is what an INTp would say:
"The only thing I've ever been able to trust is what I know."
It seems as though true strength comes from the 2nd function, not the 1st function. This is what makes you fall in love with your dual. Duals depend on your strengths in the 2nd function to back up their 6th function. For example:
INTps want someone who is completely dependent on what they know to be true and their ability to make cold, rational decisions. Disagreement from others in this area is unacceptable.
INTjs want someone who is willing to believe them on their speculations and ability to see what possibilities exist for a situation. This also manifests itself as belief.
Have fun.
Your INTp friend,
Cone
Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)
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