Conservatives are insane

[Ryan]

The five countries that completely outlaw abortion have a majority Christian population. The US has the world largest Christian population. It's not a moral question, it's a religious one. All other religions have more or less a lax stand on it, and I haven't seen many atheists who oppose abortions to that degree either. From a public policy perspective I would focus on making the population less swayed by religious doctrine if I wanted to move things forward in this case, sort of like what happened in Europe. All other arguments are moot.

[FreelancePoliceman]

It's not a moral question, it's a religious one.

A casual glance at the kinds of people who've thought deeply and seriously about morality should show that most of them have been religious. It's not a coincidence that as the world has become less religious, traditional values have been eroded in favor of ones that are good for the wealthy ("the market"). If people don't have a unifying banner, they have nowhere to rally, and the temptation of money is powerful.

From a public policy perspective I would focus on making the population less swayed by religious doctrine if I wanted to move things forward in this case, sort of like what happened in Europe. All other arguments are moot.

"Forward" is always relative to where you face.

[Ryan]

A casual glance at the kinds of people who've thought deeply and seriously about morality should show that most of them have been religious. It's not a coincidence that as the world has become less religious, traditional values have been eroded in favor of ones that are good for the wealthy ("the market"). If people don't have a unifying banner, they have nowhere to rally, and the temptation of money is powerful.

Do you remember when I told you that you came across as socially conservative and you denied it? This could be the reason.

Are you a Christian? I have to ask. I don't want to just assume.

I'm not interested in arguing in any case, I left my birth religion a long time ago. I doubt we would convince each other of anything on this issue without asking the other to renounce their beliefs.

"Forward" is always relative to where you face.

True.

[FreelancePoliceman]

Do you remember when I told you that you came across as socially conservative and you denied it? This could be the reason.

Are you a Christian? I have to ask. I don't want to just assume.

No, I'm not religious. I'm not a conservative either, but that doesn't mean I like the direction the wind is blowing.

[Ryan]

No, I'm not religious. I'm not a conservative either, but that doesn't mean I like the direction the wind is blowing.

I was so sure you had at least Christian upbringing. I guess I assumed wrong.

I mean you may not consider yourself a conservative but you can't deny that you hold many views that are largely consistent with core conservative values, can you? At least socially. I have known you for a few years now and I would say that is a fair characterization. Again, I could be the only one reading your wrong, so forgive my insolence.

[Anonymous]

I mean you may not consider yourself a conservative but you can't deny that you hold many views that are largely consistent with core conservative values, can you? At least socially.

From the few posts I have read, he comes across to me as someone who would have been a member of the International Workingmen's Association.

[Ryan]

From the few posts I have read, he comes across to me as someone who would have been a member of the International Workingmen's Association.

I didn't mean to ignore you btw, I just wasn't sure how to take your post. Is it a joke or are you serious? In any case I don't get it lol.

[Ryan]

The question of abortion—of whether or not it is acceptable to condone the killing of an innocent unborn person, of whether or not is acceptable to force a woman to carry a baby in her body against her will—does relate to one's morality, their sense of right or wrong. And thus, the question relates to religion as well since most religious people attempt to answer moral questions on the basis of their religious beliefs about right and wrong.

I disagree agree about it being only a religious question and not a moral one. It's both, and the two are connected. People use their sense of morality, which is oft influenced by religion, to determine what the greater evil is: killing an innocent person or depriving a woman of complete bodily autonomy (for nine months, give or take).

That's definitely a moral dilemma imo.

Ethical dilemmas are situations in which every available choice is wrong

An ethical dilemma​ describes a conflict between two morally correct courses of action.

I could post more definitions but I think my point is clear.

Are you arguing that not carrying an abortion is also wrong, or that abortions are good?

Edit:

I admit that I didn't read your post carefully. I guess it could be argued that some people don't consider aborting a fetus is wrong, that is why they don't see it as a moral dilemma in the first place, but I can see where you are coming from. You are not exactly wrong.

[Ryan]

Blah, allow me to backtrack if you will because you've made me realize that I poorly articulated my point and misrepresented my beliefs here (as I believe depriving a woman of control over that bodily decision is the right course of action, not an evil, if it is necessary to save an innocent life).

I should've phrased it this way:
"People use their sense of morality, which is oft influenced by religion, to determine what the wrong course of action is if a woman desires an abortion: killing an innocent person or depriving a woman of complete bodily autonomy (for nine months, give or take)."

And I also could've phrased it in the reverse manner:
"People use their sense of morality, which is oft influenced by religion, to determine what the right course of action is if a woman desires an abortion: saving the life an innocent person or preserving a woman's complete bodily autonomy."

Sorry for the confusion. I failed in articulating my point by declaring both options evil when I was merely trying to present the two choices that a person must use their morality to decide between when considering that situation. All I was trying to argue is that abortion raises a moral question since answering it involves people's sense of right/wrong and good/evil.

Nah I just speed read your post. I got it the second time. I agree with you.

I don't think I'm wrong in thinking the way forward is for Christians in particular to ease their stance on abortions, but that is a whole different deal and is merely a political/policy question.

[Ryan]

whether or not is acceptable to force a woman to carry a baby in her body against her will

I guess I always assumed this is a whole different issue that should be solved separately. But moral question aren't like logical ones and you can't treat them like they aren't connected. This is more complicated that I gave it credit for.