Try clicking [PDF] here:Originally Posted by Armitage
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q...29%2C+p.e12434.
Try clicking [PDF] here:
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q...29%2C+p.e12434.
Yes, I totally understand your point of view, I have the same at home. If I were to take into account only my big 5, it would not represent who I am in all aspects. The big 5 is, in my opinion, complementary. When you're a kid, it's good to see that you're open-minded and conscientious. But the big 5 doesn't tell you why you suck at geometry and why you have to try harder than others. For me, the Big 5 wasn't much help in getting ahead in life, let alone the MBTI which gave me sleepless nights of stress because I couldn't find my type after 2 years of intensive research. It all got better when I looked into Socionics. So no, maybe there is no accepted theory, I don't know, I've never been interested in that aspect to be honest, but, it's the most consistent in my opinion because your type is fixed, when the Big 5 can be subject to change, which is my case. Maybe it's not accepted because it puts people in boxes?
I must have my Big 5 result somewhere on my computer, in which it is absolutely impossible to see that I am ISFj. If I had done this test before my father's suicide, I would have had a different result. For me the Big 5 is not objective in the long run, it's a bit like the DISC test with the private profile in which I am yellow/blue and the social mask where I am red. Not everyone can be open-minded all the time, or conscientious all the time. Life events shape you. But a function you have in leading will remain in leading.
For the MBTI I am INFP (INFj - EII). And that's where it all went wrong. There was no way I could identify MY decision-making styles with my aunt's decisions. It was clear that we were not the same type. She is gentle when I am brutal, she is plaintive, when I am resilient.
We looked alike, our Big 5 looked alike, but we were paradoxically very different, sometimes she'd get on my nerves and I didn't know why, and, when I discovered socionics, it all made sense at once it was just > FiSe vs FiNe. NE. My painful function. So no, again, nothing is proven, nothing is accepted, but for me, it's enough, it's not like reading the horoscope, it's really like reading yourself and you think "oh hell, yes, that's me!" Although I don't agree with some of the details of the ISFj, but I tend to believe that Socionics is still on the path of evolution.
@Suonani, it's a very well written post. I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your father. The loss of him must have instilled a grave sense of mourning and powerlessness. I can only imagine what you went through, my condoleances.
@Subteigh, yay for my university account, because otherwise I would still have been unable to access the article. It's a good research article and valid for this subject. As I mentioned previously, I agree that it's nonsensical to use dichotomies for characteristics that are actually continuous and the questionnaire makers are trying to step away from that too by incorporating percentages. It also is correct that it would be better to examine people's behaviour, like @Stray Cat already said, than to overly depend on self-report questionnaires, because people do tend to be biased about themselves. It also is very true that standardizing such tests would enable proper research to be done, instead of having to rely on anecdotal evidence.
I find the article's attempt at deconstructing introversion problematic, however. Claiming that the reliability of a car or the introversion of a person is not a separate brain structure is akin to kicking in an open door. No-one claims car reliability to be an innate component, nor that the introversion of a person arises from a separate brain structure. But the reliability of a car is certainly a measurable trait, as is introversion. We can operationalize these terms for concrete testing. Instead of emerging from a separate structure, both car reliability and the introversion of a person stem from an overall interplay between processes. With the advent of fMRI scans we discovered brain function to tell far more about personality than separate brain structures.
I do agree that our personality is not inborn, instead it is shaped by a combination of our genetics, our upbringing, and peer interaction. It is also subject to change with puberty being the most flexible period of our life.
The extroversion-introversion and judging-perceiving scales are validated by the article, and I would like to add that neurological findings have showed different brain networks being used when thinking critically about something versus believing it. Religious people actually switch from their logical brain network to their believing network when they are exposed to facts that counter their beliefs. This is why it is rarely of any use to try to disprove religion to a believer. It is presumable that some people have preference for accessing their logical brain network, while others prefer using their believing network. They are different ways of perceiving the world and come very close to the thinking-feeling scale of Socionics.
All in all, this article highlights problems mostly with the classical, Jungian view and with over-relying on any single theory to base one's life decisions on. But even personality type theories can have their merits, the most famous in social sciences is attachment theory. In reality attachment operates on a continuum, instead of distinct categories. But we humans just like putting people in categories, because it makes reality simpler to understand. Nevertheless, most any psychologist agrees with the usefulness of attachment theory, in order to inform which children require intervention and how to best help adults with their relationship problems. Type theories of personality do not best represent reality, but for most people they are simpler models to use than continuous scales.
Last edited by Armitage; 03-20-2022 at 04:30 PM.
Did you try the ipsyght4 test by WSS? Im not a fan of WSS by any means and I would definitely not just rely on this test to type urself but it's a good starting point.
@Lilli98, I have never heard of it before, could you tell more about it, please?
Just eanted to say totally agree with the enabling part
Sadly I cant copy paste the link on my Phone. But if u type in ipsyght4 on Google u find it on surveymonkey. They test u according to Reinin dichotomies. First it figures out wheather youre from on an SeNi or SiNe Quadra, then if youre "serious" or "merry" (Fi vs Fe), introvert/extrovert, and than the remaining type. But I would always recommend looking into gulenko dcnh subtype descriptions afterwards to further clarify
@Lilli98, I really like this one! Suprise, surpise, I got LIE, but this is definitely one of the best Socionics tests that I did and I did a few of them.
I believe that the idea of wanting people to be your dual makes sense from a certain perspective, but uh. No? I've had cases where I've believed people might be my dual and acted accordingly to test inconclusively, because I have no idea how other people think, and have determined it impossible to verify someone else's thoughts using what I have available to me. So the main issue is I am limited to behavior. That being said, my number 2 at my old work was probably my dual, but I can't confirm, he might've been ESFp, which is entirely likely due to his inability to understand anything except verbose language. I think that is the most accurate way of describing his behavior. He was like a computer. And I do not say this lightly. If you say something that does not have correct syntax, it fails. If I say get the thing, he says what thing? If I say that thing, comedy ensues. I can't remember some of the things I asked him to do, but from my perspective, it's entirely reasonable to say can you get that thing I was holding a second ago, I forgot the name of it, and he says I don't remember what you were holding, which is entirely expected for a person who does not put emotional attachment to everything everyone does. And in this way, I do think Fi has a fairly reliable memory compared to me.
I've watched him literally do the exact same thing for a good 5 minutes, and just simply sat there to see how long it would take for him to figure it out. Nope. I then tried to demonstrate for him, and that was a mild problem, but we worked it out. Absolutely hilarious in hindsight. The question is was it because I failed to communicate or was it because I communicated incorrectly for proper compatibility? We worked exceptionally well, but my (minor) failures in communication with that guy still haunt me. Do note, this was stuff like I misspelled a word or used common slang, or an abbreviation, and it entirely screwed over part of his day (no more than 5-10 minutes) sometimes. We both were incredibly perfectionist, although I was generally half asleep all the time, except for when I was hopped up on excessive amounts of caffeine, in which case I was both hyper and sleep deprived. Good combo, amazed I never got into a car accident.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology
An optimist - does not get discouraged under any circumstances. Life upheavals and stressful events only toughen him and make more confident. He likes to laugh and entertain people. Enters contact with someone by involving him with a humorous remark. His humor is often sly and contain hints and double meanings. Easily enters into arguments and bets, especially if he is challenged. When arguing his points is often ironic, ridicules the views of his opponent. His irritability and hot temper may be unpleasant to others. However, he himself is not perceptive of this and believes that he is simply exchanging opinions.
http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=LIE_Profile_by_Gulenko
The ipsyght4 test has the same problem as other WSS tests, I don't relate to the Ti/Fe descriptions in those at all. This one gives me LIE, previously some WSS test got me SEE.
When you believe that the best possible relationship you can have is with a specific personality and all others are inadequate in comparison, you will want to classify all good relationships as dual relationships.
The Barnum or Forer effect is the tendency for people to judge that general, universally valid statements about personality are actually specific descriptions of their own personalities. A "universally valid" statement is one that is true of everyone—or, more likely, nearly everyone. It is not known why people tend to make such misjudgments, but the effect has been experimentally reproduced.
The psychologist Paul Meehl named this fallacy "the P.T. Barnum effect" because Barnum built his circus and dime museum on the principle of having something for everyone. It is also called "the Forer effect" after its discoverer, the psychologist Bertram R. Forer, who modestly dubbed it "the fallacy of personal validation".
All relationships have problems. The only thing you have to decide is which problems you can live with.
The word "extremists" was spelled wrong in your reply. Instead of "y-o--u", it probably should be "e-x-t-r-e-m-i-s-t-s".
Each relation in the socion has value. Relying on duality is sorta like begging for human codependency
Big. Five. Big. We're in the big leagues. I don't know, this is what people are saying, I don't know, but it is very big.
[Today 03:36 AM] anotherperson: this forum feels like the edge of the internet
More true that it exists than it is big.
The psychological concept that's kinda interesting about socionics and duality, in particular, is it's similarly to algebraic equations
If 3x = 6 is an algebraic equation, then what is the value of x? The value of x is whichever number that will balance both sides of the equation. The theory of socionics is that the strength of one function ought to be balanced by it's psychological counterpart. Socionics, really, isn't about feelings or romance but a certain psychological balance or comfort, if you will.
Did you talk about your relationship expectations?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SuFScoO4tb0
Yes it can be honesty-driven, curiosity-driven, death-drive driven (hi @End). You name it.
This adds perspective but you don't really touch base imo, even though the reference to kids and stability could take you there (or you just left out parts of the convo). That bring said, maybe it is for the best not to try and spell everything out.
My first LSI GF described her life as being bad, although she seemed to be doing pretty well when I met her.
My second LSI GF seemed to only have had a life where she was traumatized, fucked over, cheated on, and made some poor life choices, maybe as a result of all that.
Personally, I think that the second LSI would have done a lot better if she had had a healthy EIE around.
For the record, the second LSI and I talked about Socionics a lot, and she said that the description of EIE's seemed to fit one of her husbands, but she divorced him when she found he was using hard drugs.
Uhhh, not exactly, because she was a hot female. She did spend a huge amount of time talking to me about everyone she knew and the relationships she had with them, which I assume an EIE might be able to respond to better than I could. But she never gave me the impression of a grumpy old man.
It was more like, she didn't see relationships clearly and was trying to make logical sense of them from the cold facts that she gathered. To that end, she tended to blame herself when things didn't work out, and she was really friendly to almost everyone she knew (that I saw, anyway), and she was really slow when I kidded her with some jokes, but she seemed pretty determined to be optimistic, even in the face of her life falling apart around her.
I think she just needed someone who was always straight with her, not someone who would try to blow cotton candy up her ass, and since I always told her exactly what I was thinking, she liked me a lot. I didn't even have to tell her "Oh, that dress doesn't make you look fat". In other words, I could tell her anything, as long as it was the truth. And since I didn't see the relationship going anywhere, I didn't try to lie to her about anything.
What I didn't understand is that a lot of women don't want to be lied to. Especially 2D Ni types. They don't even like spin.
There is an illuminating convo between Morty and his GF Jacquelyn near the end of this clip about honesty. It's one of my favorites.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p4NQmw_ys4
Morty: Jacquelyn, I I-I-I wasn’t who I said I was.
Jacquelyn: You weren’t a 14-year-old boy from the Midwest who ran away from his family and capitalized on his lack of conscience by becoming a stock broker?
Morty: Oh. I guess I was pretty up front about that, wasn’t I?
Jacquelyn: You were up front about everything. You were my soul mate.
Morty: Well No-Not anymore. I’ll, um Y-You can keep the apartment,
idk if im projecting but maybe he wants a "certain" thing going on but he's trying to adapt to u not labeling the relationship (as in general relationship not lovers or whatever specific (bc u dont label it))
i remember LSI being angry about his grill "not knowing wtf she wants". so if ur LSI now maybe desperate or humbled so hes trying to "mirror" u?
i think ppl project their expectations too far and get heartbroken when reality doesnt match them. expectations may be like the relationship situation in ur mind that u imagine. anything u feel is what u "imagine" then hold on to that. if u imagine it and the opposite as possibilities ur mind has a response ready for when ur expecations dont get met so ur ego doesnt get crushed.
maybe ur identifying with him too much. i think hes trying to keep that middle ground distance bc he's worried about getting crushed by ur not meeting his expectations/needs. so everything must be clearly defined but not in a rigid opressive way. this means u go to him when u can, he responds in kind when he can. u dont try to force it. ppl like that are difficult to manage bc he will feel neglected anytime u dont respond. if ur worried about that it will hold u back from cheering urself up which is supposed to allow u to cheer him up. u cant allow to burn urself out by REGULARLY cheering him up.
idk if kalinoche is right about not disclosing things. everything should be disclosed but with an open mind that is it can change. ofc ur mental states are fluid. ppl feel one way and then pile up assumptions and expectations out of it its irresponsible but its what also broken ppl tend to do ur starving and u want something more, whenever things go well u get attached make it into a habit then u fall but what this means is u need to try again and appreciate the little things even if its not how u wanted it to be bc little things still matter esp when thats all u have. its important that he learns how to cheer himself up so he doesnt drain u by ur mirroring him.
he himself may be worried about if ur trying to reject him or see if he will stick around/behave to appeal to u.
both of u want a relationship that works but neither is confident in providing for the other.
then thers the betrayal and forgiveness thing that inspires fear. where either thinks the other is messing with them - deserves to be mistreated but if ur sorry u should be forgiven but if u think u did nothing wrong while the other doesnt buy it that;s addressed by willingness of both sides to be aware enough of whats what to know the other has their interests in mind which implies he wouldnt go against u for ur not providing when u cant and the way u figure that is by giving him hypothetical scenarios to ask him how he'd react or wait for things to happen to test it. if u have poor sense of self u may feel guilty for being blamed for something thats not ur fault.
that is love for sureDeep down, I really want to be there for him but I am unsure if I have the stamina for it.
and weakness. no one can blame u for being weak tho (unless ur making urself weak on purpose and refuse to change but this is often due ot misunderstanding and not soemthing u should force on someone)
telling him that should mean a lot but bc u feel constipated around him the words may come out in a forum
sorry /ramble
https://linktr.ee/tehhnicus
Jesus is King stops black magic and closes portals
self diagnosed ASD, ADHD, schizotypal/affective
Your face makes your brain and sociotype – how muscle use shapes personality
I want to care
if I was better I’d help you
if I was better you’d be better
Human Design 2/4 projector life path 1
Sorry, @Diametric, I didn't see this last question in your post.
I seriously doubt if he is testing you to see if you'll stick around. He might test you for lying or cheating, but I honestly don't think that LSIs engage in subterfuge when it comes to relationships.
One clear sign (and good) that he likes you is that he responds right away to your texts. That is really the foundation stone of a long-term relationship.
The fact that you're mentioning it here and how saddened you are about this distance and that he replies quickly to anything you say and keeps you around, while throwing others, show to me that you both want to grow closer to each other, but that you are both waiting for the other to initiate. Take the initiative and ask him out for another date, in order to break this stalemate. The evidence is out, he wants it too, otherwise he would not be this responsive to you.
My psychology bachelor is tells me it's a completely different interpretation. You tell me he has been hurt repeatedly? He has trust issues, big ones. Yes, he does desire to date you, but he doesn't dare let his feelings for you roam freely, afraid of being hurt again. He's slowly building a wall around his feelings again and the longer you wait to pierce through this wall, the harder it becomes. You said that you're unable to give him all the psychological support that he needs, that's a fair concern. The two of you should go into couple's therapy if you want to help him. Even if you would be an expert psychologist with many years of experience yourself, psychologists should never treat those who they're close with. Nothing good comes from it if a surgeon starts operating his own leg and nothing good comes from it either if a psychologist tries treating themselves or loved ones. This is why you need an external person to help him cope with his issues, because they can keep an impartial perspective.
Is this your 1D Fi trying to express itself as feeling helpless in dating, like a 14-year old? Looking for love, but not knowing how to, so you instead throw an apartment and money at them in the hope that they will love you back?
Last edited by Armitage; 04-10-2022 at 08:19 PM.
You're pushing too little, he's holding his hand out for you to grasp it. That's why he immediately replies to anything you say. Take his hand and discover the world. Don't let your Ni take you astray by waiting, engage your Se. Act now! You have time to reply here and in Discord during the wedding, so you also have the opportunity to simply ask him: "Would you like to go out with me again?"
Don't wait until freaking summer, I've squandered opportunities myself that way. I myself wouldn't call Von Clausewitz Mr Love, but he had one solid piece of advice: Don't let the perfect plan become the enemy of the good one. You want to wait for the "perfect opportunity", but perfection doesn't exist, only us flawed humans. So don't wait for the perfect moment, because it will never occur, take the present. There's no better moment than now. Please, just ask him out, you'll both be happier for it. You'll be able to continue living again, instead of letting your head spin with all the possible scenarios. Don't let fear lead you, because fear is the mind killer. Be brave and text him.
i have said exactly this to ppl but now im not sure if it was right. i think one needs to be mentally prepared on both sides. gut isnt always wrong. maybe she needs to process everything first
https://linktr.ee/tehhnicus
Jesus is King stops black magic and closes portals
self diagnosed ASD, ADHD, schizotypal/affective
Your face makes your brain and sociotype – how muscle use shapes personality
I want to care
if I was better I’d help you
if I was better you’d be better
Human Design 2/4 projector life path 1
HONESTLY IT IS CONFUSING
https://linktr.ee/tehhnicus
Jesus is King stops black magic and closes portals
self diagnosed ASD, ADHD, schizotypal/affective
Your face makes your brain and sociotype – how muscle use shapes personality
I want to care
if I was better I’d help you
if I was better you’d be better
Human Design 2/4 projector life path 1
Lol. How did you know this?
Except I don't feel helpless in dating. Not at all. I don't think I ever felt helpless on a date. Clueless, yes, but never helpless.
Anyway, the apartment was an afterthought. Really, what impressed me more is that Morty, an obvious Fi-dom, became a conscienceless stock broker when the dominant part of him was extracted. (That's what the injection restored, if you haven't seen that episode.)
Plus, he was able to have what was obviously a mutually happy relationship with a woman by being completely up-front with her, while still being without a conscience.
There is hope for me yet.
pov: If it's not a hell yes, then it's a hell no
I'm at a point where "hell yes" has gotten me into trouble, and "hell no" has allowed some great opportunities to pass me by, so now I'm a "hell, maybe." I proceed cautiously.
I was completely inexperienced with women when I moved from high school to college, but there was a woman whom I'd known in HS attending a college nearby. She was a classy "hell yes", so I contacted her (I barely knew her) and invited myself to her campus for a visit. I now look back on that visit as one of the most cringe-worthy things I've ever done.
We smoked weed and laughed a lot, but she was about six lightyears more developed than I was.
Now, I proceed cautiously.
Sounds like a good time overall
Well, I think the best thing I can say about it is that no one got hurt. No one, and no thing, other than my self-assessment.
There's no hiding things from identicals.Besides, your Fi is constantly trying to bypass your Te guardian anyway possible to ask for help, because it's starving for attention ever since you were "raised" by your mother.
That's better, though.
I know that you have a conscience in the sense that you do care deeply about those close to you and want to make them happy in any way that you can help them. What you lack instead are ethics on a societal level, and yes, that does make you competent at your field of work, because I would feel troubled about working as a weapons manufacturer, but Americans look at it differently anyway than Europeans do.
Last edited by Armitage; 04-16-2022 at 11:30 AM.
All this time I was doing the cat thing by leaving a dead bird on her doorstep & ringing the doorbell.
Te-leads really are the cupids of the socion
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