Wanting People to Be Your Dual

[AWellArmedCat]

@Rune Not consciously anyways. In a social gathering I do prefer others to initiate contact for sure, but I'll switch roles as needed. If other people sit idle long enough I usually am the one who will break the silence and initiate, but I find it draining when I have to do too much of this. Similarly, I can contribute quite a lot of expressive energy, but I like other Fe-competent people to also be present too because I don't want to be the sole person pumping energy into the interaction

Teacher ramblings incoming:
I run into this a lot teaching English classes. It's very draining for me when I have to teach a very quiet reserved class because I try to pump energy into that and it just gets swallowed. In a more mirthful class I just throw in my bit here and there and can continuously contribute energy in a sustainable way without the momentum dying. Especially in quiet classes, I struggle to work with teachers who don't understand a class's "momentum" because they'll very often not contribute enough Fe, the energy will die, students stop engaging, and I have to work really hard to build it back up. This isn't a problem in classes which are naturally high energy because there's no danger of them losing momentum even if my co-teacher is entirely incompetent at providing it. Of course either extreme isn't ideal, but I'd much rather have to reign in a class that's a little too wild than have to draw engagement out of an overly reserved class. I can handle hyper kids fine - kids are supposed to want to talk with their friends, pass notes back and forth, and be a bit silly - but nothing makes me as nervous or self-conscious as silence when I ask the class a question. It's difficult for the kids too because it's scary to talk when no one else is saying anything

I suppose I'm not consciously thinking of duality as much just because I'm so-first and focused more on what I need in a group setting. In terms of a close friendship I want someone who will invite me to do outdoor stuff I wouldn't otherwise do on my own, or spur me to do things especially if they figure out the logistics of making them happen so I don't have to. As far as a relationship goes, I want someone who is playful, isn't afraid to bully me a little, tries to understand my psychology, loves me for my quirks, and who is genuinely interested in my ideas about things. Bonus points if they also fit the things I want in a close friendship

Does it sound like I'm wanting people to be my dual? I'm not sure

[Bethanyclaire]

ive had a lot of difficulty letting go of grudges, a lot of self hate, and then a lot for not being able to form attachments or hold on to grudges and forgetting things.

ok hope you're doing better. I think we are drawn to people who have the potential to be great for us but also bad! (maybe to do with attachment style etc). For example I think I've often been drawn to timid/ anxious people because me parents are a little like that. Well, my father at least. I like these people becasue they are gentle however being too gentle can border on neglectful..if someone is too scared to do the wrong thing it's essentially the same as doing nothing. Even if on the flip side of that are extremely kind in other ways.

But was we get older we learn to deal with people better and be more independent and more balanced

[VewyScawwyNawcissist]

ok hope you're doing better. I think we are drawn to people who have the potential to be great for us but also bad! (maybe to do with attachment style etc). For example I think I've often been drawn to timid/ anxious people because me parents are a little like that. Well, my father at least. I like these people becasue they are gentle however being too gentle can border on neglectful

no one is perfect and u cant expect someone to do everything right especially if u dont communicate ur preferences for what someoen else does. i somehow managed to be both too gentle and not gentle enough which just concldues that im too fucked up buti s it a me problem bc those ppl are still struggling with others and shit like isolated compatibility makes me sick, as well as simply accepting someone's flaws as they are, as if we cant change, or not communicating or having weak borders where ur too forgiving of someone's abuse then leave them bc u didnt assert enough and pressured them into taking actions they shouldn't have that u blame them for, having expectations that are misconstrued in reality, or blaming someone for things they cant change or change just like that, im guilty of all on both sides and so are others everything's just such an ugly mess.
old ppl can get traumatize and jaded and not change bc they've been through so much and are independent now and dont need to introspect to change for anyone else + being abused so much there's no more capacity for any more stress or sucking up to someone else. this got soooo dark

[Bethanyclaire]

Odd, because being a Ni-subtype should have made it only easier for your brother and you to get along, @Bethany. Perhaps these clashes during your youth with your brother might be particular to the way you were raised. But this is all conjecture from my side, which is way too private to delve deeper into on a public forum, so I'll stop my speculating here.

Ah, alright, I originally thought that she was the LIE you recently mentioned getting along better with, so I was suprised to hear that the situation had regressed. But since it turned out to be a different LIE, I'm glad to hear that LIE 2 and you are still getting along. And I'm also happy for you that you could change work sites, in order to evade the LIE and SEI with whom you felt uncomfortable.

LOL, if your gay IEE friend is kind, single, and sporty, I'm open for business. Just kidding, in general I enjoy most IEEs more as friends, and it'd be too far away probably.

hm I don't know I thought maybe I'm a weird ni subtype so it feels clashy to SEEs or something. It's only some SEEs though, maybe it's not that unusual. Haha I don't know about my upbringing, your comments made me think about something though. Rather than upbringing/ external factors I think I can probably pinpoint the trigger of my mental health problems to something really simple and mundane. This simple act caused an accidental problem. My 16 year old developing ni-subtype-ish brain then sort of hyper focused on this issue and went into a sort of subtle terror mode. These worries infiltrated other areas of my personality and unhealthy patterns of thinking started to develop. There was a sort of cascading effect..my mind expected terror so I almost imagined myself into terrible situations. My ni-subtype brain may be a little to do with my upbringing/ environment but I think the things that happened post 16 could easily have been different if I'd have just been a little more lucky. (There were ealier signs of problems...but...I think bad luck/ very random stuff plays a big part, at least for me). I don't mean to dwell on it all too much though. This forum has helped me massively- if I didn't find it then it may have taken me 10 more years to get to the recovery point I'm at now? My problems were always very quiet and secret and my coping mechanism was to pretend to be happy because I was so scared of talking about my issues and I felt like there was no way they could be helped unless I fixed them myself. Then I ended up here, realised I had so much to learn...and learnt a lot lol. But yeah in way because I always pretended to be ok I feel like I can tell myself (or try) to not be regretful and instead look back on the positive things I achieved. I did the best I could, even though I was so naive..I made a life for myself even though it was weird.

haha evading the LIE and SEI...yepp...feels good. LIEs are a lot of fun- I do appreciate you guys.

haha my friend is with an activity partner. Haha Holland is not so far. You have a good party scene...

[Bethanyclaire]

no one is perfect and u cant expect someone to do everything right especially if u dont communicate ur preferences for what someoen else does. i somehow managed to be both too gentle and not gentle enough which just concldues that im too fucked up buti s it a me problem bc those ppl are still struggling with others and shit like isolated compatibility makes me sick, as well as simply accepting someone's flaws as they are, as if we cant change, or not communicating or having weak borders where ur too forgiving of someone's abuse then leave them bc u didnt assert enough and pressured them into taking actions they shouldn't have that u blame them for, having expectations that are misconstrued in reality, or blaming someone for things they cant change or change just like that, im guilty of all on both sides and so are others everything's just such an ugly mess.
old ppl can get traumatize and jaded and not change bc they've been through so much and are independent now and dont need to introspect to change for anyone else + being abused so much there's no more capacity for any more stress or sucking up to someone else. this got soooo dark

you're very insightful. I don't know how old you are..probably younger than me. I think you will start to feel a bit more clearer about your insights in time? People grow and change and find themselves at different paces- there is always the chance to get on a better or more fulfilling path. I think people often know deep down the type of person they are and want to be..we can change a lot throughout our lives but some things probably stick. Your IEI insight can get better and better. I'm rambling a bit.

Soz if I’m assuming too much

[Toro]

I don't know why we expect to fall in love with our dual? I see Duality better more for platonic professional relationships rather than romantic ones.

Looking at romance in terms of duality seems too formal and mechanistic to be realistic.

[Nicozeyo]

The thing with duality I think is that it needs some prerequisites. I often learn new things about SEE. It's complex to handle this ITR properly because some of us could think that it will spare us difficulties but it's the exact opposite. There is things to work on to make duality pleasant.
I think (as socionics theorizes it) duality is the most favorable ITR for romance, friendship or whatever you want to build with the other person. But, I think that many people understimate the work it needs.

Just as Toro said, it could seems very mechanical to look for a dual for the purpose to find one.

[Stray Cat]

I don't know why we expect to fall in love with our dual? I see Duality better more for platonic professional relationships rather than romantic ones.

Looking at romance in terms of duality seems too formal and mechanistic to be realistic.

That would probably depend on your definition of a romantic relationship and the type of drama and fiery hoops you intend to put that person through

[VewyScawwyNawcissist]

you're very insightful. I don't know how old you are..probably younger than me. I think you will start to feel a bit more clearer about your insights in time? People grow and change and find themselves at different paces- there is always the chance to get on a better or more fulfilling path. I think people often know deep down the type of person they are and want to be..we can change a lot throughout our lives but some things probably stick. Your IEI insight can get better and better. I'm rambling a bit.

Soz if I’m assuming too much

u are right but im partly projecting a persona. some ppl would often think im younger or older than i am which is based on superficial vibes, and what im projecting as vibes can be interpreted in multiple ways so it is presumptive in that sense.
im frustrated when age gets in the way of connection or communication like ppl getting frustrated with each other. there should be something integral and timeless. ppl can lose themsselves in their experiences, its a pattern to "rediscover" yourself in the future. things u used to know that change everything but somehow forgot along the way. i also think everyone wants to be the same person even if it doesnt look like that from the beginning, as u learn ur perception shifts towards that or maybe ppl just shift on a single plane. anyway i dont like the thought of needing time to become better. it becomes a factor that alienates ppl until they reach some imaginary point of development as if everything will be fine until then or that be a reason to be alienated from each other until u become "good enough".

[Toro]

That would probably depend on your definition of a romantic relationship and the type of drama and fiery hoops you intend to put that person through

I don't want drama, I want loyalty and reliability (among other things.) There's no reason to believe I could get this from just my dual.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

i somehow managed to be both too gentle and not gentle enough which just concldues that im too fucked up

"Too gentle but not gentle enough" - I think this is a common pitfall of 2D role Si

[Lord Pixel]

It's interesting but I don't take it too seriously, because one or both parties could be mistyped or unhealthy. I have always been a curious skeptic of the concept.

Never try to force the idea of duality with anyone...or be prepared for insanity.

And even if one does find a dual, only a fraction of them will be compatible with you... It either clicks or it doesn't.

Yea, I don't think duality is something you can force, for me at least it's always been a surprise, like they just get past my natural filter for strangers somehow and I'm shocked at how easy it was for them.

[Lord Pixel]

I don't know if I always want someone to be my dual, but I realize I expect my environment to have dual influence. I cannot tell you how many times I've been pissed off at work because things aren't done in a Te efficient way, but I always seem to expect it to be taken care of by someone else, because if I have to do it I get pissed and do it out of anger lol. Maybe I do expect people to be my duals sometimes because if someone gives me instructions and they are not told to me in a Si-Te way I'm mostly lost. I need the details and the shortcuts, not the general jist, not the vague concept, or big idea, just the deats and shortcuts only. Example, if I have to massage a cat and I ask them how to do it, if someone tells me "Relax and gently caress the cat's back" I'm lost, if they tell me " Knead the cat's back like pizza dough" still lost, they need to tell me "Rub the cat from the top of the shoulders down to it's tail following the direction of the fur." Crystal clear and no room for misinterpretation.

I read alot of self help books and most of it is very vague and nebulus and helps me none, because my Ne interprets these vague principles and lofty sayings in 1 thousand ways and I never know how the author intended it to be interpreted. The first time I read a book that was PRACTICAL with actionable steps I finally realized the value of clarity, wisdom means nothing if the hearer does not understand it.

[Lord Pixel]

I think that LIEs can be nice (because we hate mean people) and charming and helpful and we can be a positive influence to those around us. I mean, on a fundamental level, I really do hate mean people and I try to make sure that everyone I meet is better off for having known me.
I do this before I know anything about the other person. It really is fundamental to me. (Although I'm not sure that other LIEs feel this way, but they generally seem to ACT this way.)

However......

When I look at other LIEs, I take the above stuff for granted and instantly look beyond that, and what I see are intransigent jerks a lot of the time. Of course, I have a different perspective than most people. I'm on the inside, looking around. Other LIEs are easy to exchange information with, but they really don't bring anything else to the table that is constructive.

Instead, their faults, which I so easily see in another person, are my faults, too, and having those faults thrown right in my face all the time is not so great.

This is exactly why I think Identity relations are deceptively uncomfortable. I don't think anybody assumes this is what would happen from meeting an identical, but yea I've experienced this too. Some EIIs I just wanna shake lol.

[Lord Pixel]

I heard that identical relations are most fruitful within the context of a teacher/student type dynamic. If one needs help using their lead or creative function more efficiently, it is his/her identical who can assist in that particular way.

Yes but when the student catches up and becomes competent you start to feel things stagnate because you 2 don't have much to provide to each other, and even conversation starts to feel like "Yea, yea, I know." alot.

[Armitage]

u are right but im partly projecting a persona. some ppl would often think im younger or older than i am which is based on superficial vibes, and what im projecting as vibes can be interpreted in multiple ways so it is presumptive in that sense.
im frustrated when age gets in the way of connection or communication like ppl getting frustrated with each other. there should be something integral and timeless. ppl can lose themsselves in their experiences, its a pattern to "rediscover" yourself in the future. things u used to know that change everything but somehow forgot along the way. i also think everyone wants to be the same person even if it doesnt look like that from the beginning, as u learn ur perception shifts towards that or maybe ppl just shift on a single plane. anyway i dont like the thought of needing time to become better. it becomes a factor that alienates ppl until they reach some imaginary point of development as if everything will be fine until then or that be a reason to be alienated from each other until u become "good enough".

Yes, development continues throughout life, and different people focus on developing different parts of themselves. So a 12 year old can be prodiguous at mathematics and be more proficient at it than a 46 year old violist. Age is associated with experience, but it's not an 1:1 correlation, so there are bound to be very precocious kids and daft adults. This variance is even greater, because no-one will develop the very same parts of themselves in the same order in the same speed.

"Too gentle but not gentle enough" - I think this is a common pitfall of 2D role Si

In what way is Si related to gentleness, because I thought that Fe was?

Yes but when the student catches up and becomes competent you start to feel things stagnate because you 2 don't have much to provide to each other, and even conversation starts to feel like "Yea, yea, I know." alot.

Well, the conversations are fun for relaxed banter, and perhaps doing a hobby or two together, because you share the same interests. It works well for friendships in that way, a bit like how mirage does, only in this case you can not only do casual activities together, but can also rely on the other in the work environment to do the task in the way you expect it to be done. The problem in the work environment is not a different approach, like with mirage, but a struggle for leadership.
The depth of the relationship can remain lacking, though, because of all this similarity. The other person rarely brings new insights, ideas, and coping methods to the table, unless there is an experience difference, like Stray Cat explained.






@Bethany, perhaps an interesting factoid, the random event that triggered your anxiety is called a precipitating factor. It does require the presence of one or multiple predisposing factor(s), in order to be able to activate a psychological problem. It's like a light bulb, if you press the light switch repeatedly ( the precipitating factor ), but there is no light bulb ( the predisposing factor ) there will be no light ( no psychological problem ), regardless. If you do have a light bulb ( the predisposing factor ), but no-one presses the light switch ( the precipitating factor ), then there will also be no light ( no psychological problem ). This latter case is the one you describe, if the random event ( the pressing of the light switch, also known as the precipitating factor ) had not occured, then you probably would not have developed anxiety ( the light, id est the psychological problem ), unless a different event happened that would have triggered it at a later point in life.

As explained above, both the light bulb ( the predisposing factor ) and the pressing of the light switch ( the precipitating factor ) have to be present to turn on the light ( the psychological problem ). However, there also is the need for a power source, exampli gratia a windmill ( the perpetuating factor ). Something must keep powering the light ( the psychological problem ), in order to keep it on after the switch is turned. Learning how to shield the windmill from the wind ( coping skills ) is often what is taught in psychological therapy, because the supply of wind is the easiest factor to manipulate in the whole system.

For instance, genes that code for anxiety ( predisposing factor ) are activated by parental neglect ( precipitating factor ) and cause the person to develop separation anxiety ( the psychological problem ). Even after leaving the parental home ( the precipitating factor ), this person still experiences separation anxiety ( the psychological problem ), because their attachment style is anxious ( the perpetuating factor ). Their anxious attachment causes them to look for partners similar to their parents, in order to replay their youth with, but to get it "right" this time as a form of self-therapy. As a consequence, even when encountering a genuinely loving partner, this person self-sabotages their relationship with them, because they continue behaving the same way as they did with their neglectful parents. This unhealthy behaviour forces the lover to respond in the same was as the person's parents, even if in normal circumstances they would not have done so. The anxious person taking the role of victim triggers the lover's rescuer instincts, which in turn causes the person to rebuke them for it, because the lover now behaves "just like my parents".

When trapped in such a vicious cycle of the Karpman Drama Triangle, there are only two possible outcomes. Either this unhealthy cycle causes the relationship to falter and the person sees their world beliefs confirmed that no-one is to be trusted, or the intrinsic motivation of the two lovers to work on the relationship makes them search for qualified external help to break their entrenched cognitive-emotional-behavioural patterns. Why is external help necessary? Because these ingrained patterns are blindspots for ourselves, because we developed them already early in child- and teenagehood. It is during our adolescence that we imprint how relationships work based on our role models, our parents, siblings, and peers. When these role models are severely flawed, our cognitive-emotional-behavioural patterns become severely flawed too and we develop a dysfunctional attachment style as a consequence.

Since no relationship is perfect, though, no role model is either and we thus always carry some emotional baggage from our parents with us. I therefore am of the conviction that everyone and every relationship would benefit from self-reflective therapy, as long as they can find a qualified therapist that fits their parnter and them. Just like how we visit our dentist for a check-up twice a year to maintain our dental hygiene, I strongly advocate that we as a society start doing the same for our mental hygiene.

... And Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin needs therapy first and foremost.

[Toro]

This is what I have to say about xLIs from my own personal experience, so there's no guarantee this will ring true for everyone.

ILI and SLI communicate to people through the knowledge and insights they've gathered. They don't like people who concentrate on emotional vibes since this is so irrelevant to what they want to talk about. Isolated xLIs that don't have a circle of friends they can give a good ethical orientation toward through their Fi HA they will feel as if they are the only intelligent person around (in extreme cases).

More matured xLIs have developed ethical functions and they can recognize that not everyone wants to talk about what they want to talk about and people want to see you smile more often lol.

With xEEs Fe PoLR can drop the act and talk about what they want, the way they want to. xEEs are the same way in fact. So it makes conversations interesting lol.

There is also the problem of xLIs making sharp normative ethical judgments that won't land well in every situation. I don't mind hearing other people's likes and dislikes, but not everyone is like that. An example of this was when a xLI friend of mine was in a group of people when he called a girl he knew crazy because he had attempted suicide in the past. Now, this is something that normally wouldn't go well but it went even worse since I knew one of the girls in the group he was talking to also had attempted suicide. When I heard what he said it was like watching a car crash . Well, the group was nice and tried to smooth it over and move on, which was fortunate. The point is that they can be very harsh in their ethical assessments and even though they are highly logical people these ethical assessments can be pretty bad.

Women of these types typically have better ethics than men due to cultural upbringing. But the women still usually have a dry sardonic humor that I find appealing.

[Nicozeyo]

There is also the problem of xLIs making sharp normative ethical judgments that won't land well in every situation. I don't mind hearing other people's likes and dislikes, but not everyone is like that. An example of this was when a xLI friend of mine was in a group of people when he called a girl he knew crazy because he had attempted suicide in the past. Now, this is something that normally wouldn't go well but it went even worse since I knew one of the girls in the group he was talking to also had attempted suicide. When I heard what he said it was like watching a car crash . Well, the group was nice and tried to smooth it over and move on, which was fortunate. The point is that they can be very harsh in their ethical assessments and even though they are highly logical people these ethical assessments can be pretty bad.

Interesting. How do you determine that an "ethical assessment" is "bad" ? The whole point of ethic is based on things being "good" or "bad" in the eyes of ourselves (Fi) or others people (Fe), in the end, there is no objective compass to ethic. So, what do you meant exactly by "these ethical assessments can be pretty bad" ?

[Toro]

Interesting. How do you determine that an "ethical assessment" is "bad" ? The whole point of ethic is based on things being "good" or "bad" in the eyes of ourselves (Fi) or others people (Fe), in the end, there is no objective compass to ethic. So, what do you meant exactly by "these ethical assessments can be pretty bad" ?

They can be bad in multiple ways. The first one is that they can be bad in the context of the appropriateness of the statement. But they can also be bad in the context that the assessments are too black and white and "normative" and lack nuance (ex: ALL people are x because y). However, this isn't a hard and fast rule, it's just a tendency I've seen among Fe PoLR.

I don't normally call someones ideas bad like this, but I really mean bad in the context of how they will be received by mixed company. I mean ethics in the socionics sense not in a moral sense.

[Nicozeyo]

They can be bad in multiple ways. The first one is that they can be bad in the context of the appropriateness of the statement. But they can also be bad in the context that the assessments are too black and white and "normative" and lack nuance (ex: ALL people are x because y). However, this isn't a hard and fast rule, it's just a tendency I've seen among Fe PoLR.

I don't normally call someones ideas bad like this, but I really mean bad in the context of how they will be received by mixed company. I mean ethics in the socionics sense not in a moral sense.

Ok, I get you. It's all about Fe PoLR then.

It's interesting, because you know, xEEs have Fe as their demonstrative function. A very singular function slot which tend to be more "manipulative". xEE like to influence people's emotions around them.

More specifically about SEE (because I'm ILI). The demonstrative SEE's Fe is supposed to be inconsciously oriented toward the ILI's Fe PoLR. In theory SEEs doesn't really mind about their dual's bluntness. it's precisely because SEE has "good" skills at manipulating the global social environnement that they are ILI's dual. They could quickly spread out warmess and reassuring words like "he's angry, don't worry " to couterbalance the ILI's natural coldness (which is a more general word than "blunt" to describe ILI's effect on his surroudings).
Things got even more interesting when you think about it. Having Fe PoLR isn't always about being cold. Some people could (and will) exploit this specific point to manipulate ILI emotionally because they are very naive. It's easy to persuade an ILI that you like them. In this case, the SEE's Fe is able to identify that something is wrong and interfere because he knows when someone is maliciously using Fe which is another "perk" that comes with Fe as a demonstrative function.

In duality, vulnerable and demonstrative function formed together a shield when the two types are together.

Everything is simultaneously good and bad. Isn't it beautiful.

[Lord Pixel]

Well, the conversations are fun for relaxed banter, and perhaps doing a hobby or two together, because you share the same interests. It works well for friendships in that way, a bit like how mirage does, only in this case you can not only do casual activities together, but can also rely on the other in the work environment to do the task in the way you expect it to be done. The problem in the work environment is not a different approach, like with mirage, but a struggle for leadership.
The depth of the relationship can remain lacking, though, because of all this similarity. The other person rarely brings new insights, ideas, and coping methods to the table, unless there is an experience difference, like Stray Cat explained.

Yeaaaa, feels like they are saying exactly what you would have said anyway.

[ILoveChinchillas]

In a way duality feels more like a natural need than a want. I remember when cute and nice SEE hunk helped me lift something cuz he saw I was having trouble with it and I think I attracted him with my victimy princess charms. I remember SLE friend got annoyed if other people bullied me too much and stopped other people from doing that with Se. With my benefactors, (ESI) we often have interesting social conversations. and of course I naturally attract hot aggressive Chads who know how to be sexually dominant but that's TMI.

but yeah sometimes like if I'm around a conflicting type this doesn't happen. "Lift that yourself and stop playing victim, u shouldn't have any trouble with that you're a man" with a stern bitch face. and then I'm like "You self righteous Delta cunt- you're nowhere near as moral as you think you are you fucking bitch, I will destroy your pristine reputation by revealing to other people what a worthless soul you really have." *insert Buffy vs Glory cat fight*

Depends on the social gathering but if you are just 'yourself' more or less, as corny as that sounds- dual seeking functions happen naturally I think. Wanting it is like wanting it to rain, what's the point- it will happen when it's supposed to happen. I mean its the SEI lookalike in me but I kinda believe in balance & moderation. You won't meet everybody that will clash with you and you won't have some ideal super fun party time with everybody and feel completely dualized by the love either but yeah... depends on luck, setting etc. And it's not so simple. I mean yeah, throw me in a prison and I'm sure my cute gay ass will be *very* popular with the 4D Se-ego psychos there but for all the wrong reasons and it isn't love just lust. Too much duality also can enable unhealthy patterns because a person won't challenge you enough to grow. Your dual naturally loves you for who you are with you having to change the least for them but that can have a dark side where they end up enabling objectively bad things you do because they subjectively love you so much. Confliction does indeed suck because it's so heartless and soul draining often but I think you level up from fighting/defeating each other like a video game. This is so Wayne Dyer self help book-y, but you can learn and grow from everybody you meet even if it's not perfect or romantic and even if they don't give you nice fuzzy feelings.

but aww that SEE dude was so charming. /gay hearts in eyes.

Maybe I do that subconsciously but consciously no unless it's a joke. It's kinda autistic to do that


There is nothing to resolve I think, just gotta accept people as who they are. I hope no one thinks of me like: "I like One but too bad I have to avoid her because she's X type" so I would try my best not to do that. It's slightly similar to hoping that the other person is not a certain sign. I know many of us here believe socionics has more sense than astrology but I'm talking about how we could see other people as deficient just because they aren't helping us in our DS.

I'd say you cannot just ask help and expect things to go your way all the time. Other types have a lot to offer too. Also have you felt achieving things on your own even imperfectly? It feels good. It's actually fun when you get to be respected on things that aren't really your forte.

When I was a kid I felt like I could take on anything I wanna do and didn't feel like I need someone. When I fail at something I wouldn't expect anyone to help me at all before and would just shrug. I had a lot of social faux pas but didn't really care. Sometimes I would even get praises for it (some people would take note of my audacity and how it's entertaining to them, sometimes they would say they like my honesty). But not until I started feeling that I am imperfect and have to be good in everything. As I got older for some reason I developed the idea of "being alone" and "underperforming" and now I always try to avoid those. Duality became very appealing. And when you are in that kind of mindset you'll have the tendency to not see your life as good enough whenever you are not being helped in your weaknesses.

To be honest the appeal was all about me people-pleasing. I would wonder if the other person thinks I was rude, or if I hurt their feelings, etc. because if they do then that's a fail and failure is bad in my book. Plus, it might lead me to lose 'people points' and I have to gain those points. But for what? It's all insecurities, maybe because the young me got called out once and now I don't wanna risk being called out even if some people might actually like me as me. This insecurity was the worse when it comes to gathering people and hosting. There were several instances when I was able to befriend people then I got into a position where I have to take care of them, get their attention, talk to the group and make them work well together. And maybe since I wasn't able to do it in the ideal way (which could probably be done by my dual) I started feeling inadequate. But then I'm realizing now that I could have just said no to those things, and maybe failing wasn't too bad at all.

Btw graded tests and other shit are really cancer - this is probably the main culprit in my case. Thanks to those things I started thinking that I have to be perfect all the time, and that getting a dual would make my life 10/10. Thankfully I'm starting to get contented of myself again now that I realized my tendencies.

So as an additional note, if you always expect a dual to help you ask yourself why you have the tendency to do so. We all have our reasons. It might lead you to some insights about yourself.

I'm talking about something more naturally subconscious, and I suppose it's kind of a moot point because what's subconscious can be made conscious etc.

Regarding what to do when someone is not your dual, I'm wondering if people have ways of reverse engineering what's being communicated from someone who's not your dual. Is Socionics something you use to better inform yourself of how a person processes information? Or no?

Duality just seems to be a subconscious need that requires communication be met according to the individual. When the gap isn't bridged, something must be done to resolve the difference. For example, my parents are not duals sand one of the ways they rectify their differences is through faith.

MBTI has also become a popular outlet for people to understand each other. Kiersey's famous book, Please Understand Me II is practically headlined as a product meant for better understanding of various types.

[ILoveChinchillas]

I think it's possible to reverse engineer the ITR in the sense that one makes observations, verifies and confirms with the other person the understanding. If there is no verification process in place, it can still lead to miscommunication and misunderstanding. The dual will have a much higher probability of getting your thought process (or information metabolism) and it will most likely be easier to clear up disagreements. However, duality is still quite fallible to the pitfalls of making erroneous assumptions.

In short, I would be very careful about how to go about the process of reverse engineering a personality construct like duality.

To be clear, we're not talking about reverse engineering duality as a concept, but as real information between real people, correct?

Why would you be very careful? To me, it seems like the most risk free ITR because information metabolism is maximized consciously and subconsciously. Even semi-duality seems to check a lot of positive boxes. Though, it doesn't hurt to clarify things through verification.

[Aster]

It seems like one of those basic deeply ingrained human needs to want to be accepted, so I think it makes sense for people to ‘want to be someone’s dual.’

[ILoveChinchillas]

Knowing a few SEEs, I don't think they would take kindly to the idea of being "reverse engineered". They usually just want to connect with people and be accepted as is. Essentially, tag along for the ride and help troubleshoot whatever pitfalls they run into. They will help you live outside of your head and to experience things!

Thank you. That means a great deal coming from you.

[Bethanyclaire]

@Bethany, it sounds to me like the sleeping problems might actually stem from your stress. .

it turns at there is a precipitating factor I hadn’t even considered. There is literally some sort of generator making noise outside my window at 5.30am. I wouldn’t have realised it unless I talked to my ESE neighbour about it (coping mechanism!) But now I have to face my landlord/the pub next door landlord in dealing with the issue lol. It helps to know that it’s not simply my crazy brain keeping me awake..in a way lol.

I do like the windmill image, that’s one to remember. Images/analogies are useful in therapy I think. I remember going to group therapy with an SEI instructor who was smart but sometimes it felt like she thought she was giving a lecture/speech/ didn’t really know what she was talking about. There was a lot of focus on talking about the causes of anxiety..and how we get into addictive spirals. It was interesting to discuss as a group but the therapists didn’t seem to offer much hope to breaking free from the cycle and it felt like they were saying there was something wrong with us, we had a disease that couldn’t be explained. I think I prefer socionics as a tool..or maybe it just wasn’t the right type of therapy.

[Enters Laughing]

I don't believe in duality. I just want everyone to be EIE.

[Adam Strange]

I don't believe in duality. I just want everyone to be EIE.

Because you love Chaos?

[Enters Laughing]

Because you love Chaos?

Because I think it represents the best personality.

[Adam Strange]

Because I think it represents the best personality.

Have you asked any EIEs how they feel about that?

[Enters Laughing]

Have you asked any EIEs how they feel about that?

Probably not.

[Adam Strange]

Probably not.

It’s just that the EIEs whom I know personally seem to be fairly unhappy with their lives, or they seem to exist in a state of borderline insanity.

I mean, they are often extremely nice, considerate, admirable people, but from what I infer, I wouldn’t want to be one.

Your mileage may vary.

[Enters Laughing]

It’s just that the EIEs whom I know personally seem to be fairly unhappy with their lives, or they seem to exist in a state of borderline insanity.

I mean, they are often extremely nice, considerate, admirable people, but from what I infer, I wouldn’t want to be one.

Your mileage may vary.

I think EIE are likely to be one of the happier types.

[Adam Strange]

If they are working towards their vision. The unhappy ones are mostly stuck living in regret and anger behind a happy facade.

But what would make an EIE happy and fulfilled?

I have an EIE cousin, married to an LIE husband, and she always gave me the impression of someone who was struggling to appear normal. Her daughter, just divorcing her wife, is the same same way. No idea what will happen to their two adopted kids.
The EIE son of a friend of mine cheated on his LSI wife and his wife is done with him.

It’s like, if there aren’t any insurmountable difficulties in their lives, they’ll make some.

[Stray Cat]

Because I think it represents the best personality.

Gross

[Stray Cat]

I think EIE are likely to be one of the happier types.

Introverted perceived tend to have a narrative in which they prefer their life to follow. EIEs, in particular, would probably desire thar others around them agree or be compliant with the EIE narrative. At times, in order to prove their arguments, EIEs may cherry pick evidence through their Se function to give their argument legitimacy. If an EIE is unhappy with you, they may willingly ostracize you while simultaneously building themselves up. If their Ti function is really fucked, they won't logically deduce what [l]really[/l] should or shouldn't be said within a particular social situation

In short, EIE can be a POS just like any other type.

[Enters Laughing]

Introverted perceived tend to have a narrative in which they prefer their life to follow. EIEs, in particular, would probably desire thar others around them agree or be compliant with the EIE narrative. At times, in order to prove their arguments, EIEs may cherry pick evidence through their Se function to give their argument legitimacy. If an EIE is unhappy with you, they may willingly ostracize you while simultaneously building themselves up. If their Ti function is really fucked, they won't logically deduce what [l]really[/l] should or shouldn't be said within a particular social situation

In short, EIE can be a POS just like any other type.

I don't believe in Model A or IM explanations for behaviour anymore. I'm far more influenced by what the Big Five factors represent and what they imply about each type.

[Stray Cat]

I don't believe in Model A or IM explanations for behaviour anymore. I'm far more influenced by what the Big Five factors represent and what they imply about each type.

That's funny because I was describing EIEs actual behavior, independent any social scientist's "theoretical" psychological analysis.

[Stray Cat]

In my humble opinion, an EIE's greatest desire is to have some impact and influence on the world around them. They are the leaders of Beta quadra afterall. This desire manifests itself in behaviors ranging from obnoxious attention-whores to being inspirational influential leaders.

EIE + LIE couple: I would say both EIEs + LIEs want to be influential in their respective domains so there will be a psychological competitiveness between the two and the EIE probably feels like she's being overshadowed in certain ways and what she does doesn't truly matter in the end. The struggle
to appear "normal" is usually a way to deflect insecurities (ignoring Fi).

The daughter: It doesn't sound like she got the best relationship modeling from her parents so probably some of her issues stem falling into some of same pitfalls.

EIE male: To put it bluntly, he probably felt like a failure and deficient so he sought out cheap validation and paid the price. Fe leads seem especially susceptible to validation-seeking when they are faced with very strong unpleasant emotions related to their self-perceptions and other people (again, ignoring Fi).

So these people are probably feeling lost and don't know how/if their existence matters in the big scheme of things.

Interesting opinion

[Enters Laughing]

That's funny because I was describing EIEs actual behavior, independent any social scientist's "theoretical" psychological analysis.

It's a bit of a circular argument. I don't think EIEs have Se or Ti.