(Workplace question) Should this IEI adapt to macho guy type of interactions or wage ethical war against them?

[Vis]

I'm describing this from my ILI perspective so there could be some misinterpretations. But I'm doing my best to be objective and accurate. It's a problem that has been going on for months and I'd really appreciate your feedback. Thanks!


This IEI I know recently got himself entangled in a war between two departments in his new job.
He:
- loves this new job and wants to keep it (it gave him a sense of purpose)
- has a good relationship with his supervisors in his own department (let's call it department A. In this department the supervisors are all females, mostly gammas, mostly SEEs)
- he's hard working and has good work ethics in this job (from my own observation)


The problem:
- Managers from another department (let's call it department B) always ask him to do things.
- Department A's supervisors do not think department B's managers should order department A workers to do these things.
- The two departments seem to have a lot of conflict over this.
- I have a feeling (guess) some other people in department A are continuously doing work for department B. That's why they keep asking this IEI to do jobs for them.


The complications and why this becomes an ethical war for the IEI:
- This IEI has some childhood traumas and anxiety issues. He gets anxious whenever someone is talking to him with a tone that's too harsh/demanding.
- It is his moral principle that people should be nice and understanding to each other. If he's angry with me and I point it out, he'd quickly apologize and explain that's not who he is.
- From my observation he tends to socialize with mostly women. With men he only socializes with the very nice/gentle ones or ones who are looking after him
- Department B managers/workers tend to have a very macho/tough communication style (also some anger issues) - this is what's bothering him the most because it triggers his anxiety/trauma memory, and makes him feel he's not being treated as an equal.
(From his descriptions I get a sense that department B people are very SLE/EIE like, but I could be wrong as I haven't seen them personally)
- The IEI has communicated with department B people and HR about their tone being too harsh/demanding. They are more careful with anger now but still have a demanding tone when speaking with him. The IEI is enraged and thinks the only right thing to do is to find a way to force department B managers to change their way of speaking.


From my perspective, I feel the easier solutions are to:
1) consult with his own department supervisor to reduce unnecessary work (if his supervisors don't want him to do it then nobody can complain about him).
2) adapt to the department B manager's communication style (very macho/bro-like, respecting senior's rank and authority) on the surface to reduce emotional suffering - in other words, fake high Se to blend in temporarily.


He's doing solution 1) and is always consulting with his own supervisors, refusing department B managers with legitimate reasons. But he does not want to do solution 2) because he thinks department B managers are wrong by not changing the way they communicate, and he would never be part of them.


At first I was trying to persuade him to choose my more peaceful solutions, but my Te way of speaking is not an effective way to change his mind. Then I feel, from beta quadra values, his ethical war way might be the more appropriate solution for him? What do you think?

[ouronis]

I also have a coworker in my department who has been in this position and we were able to reduce his workload by pointing the other department to other resources or ways of getting done what they needed done.

I think this question highly depends on the exact details of the situation, esp what resources department A has to get it done. We had managers who take a more measured, slow but steady wins the race approach, so I don't know if an SEE would generally be ok with this plan.

[Vis]

I also have a coworker in my department who has been in this position and we were able to reduce his workload by pointing the other department to other resources or ways of getting done what they needed done.

I think this question highly depends on the exact details of the situation, esp what resources department A has to get it done. We had managers who take a more measured, slow but steady wins the race approach, so I don't know if an SEE would generally be ok with this plan.

From his description the department A supervisors also see this as somewhat of a moral issue (or it could be his misinterpretation?), but anyways they are not teaching him to be diplomatic about it. If department B people are more beta-like as I guessed, they probably won't back off easily either. The HR seems to be very good at calming people down, but I feel the real issues are not being dealt with and the war just keeps going. Hiring more people is one solution but I guess they also have difficulties with that?

The departmental war is definitely out of his control. And I was trying to find ways to reduce the emotional tension for him (as I always do for myself). But maybe instead of reducing, IEIs are looking for more emotional tensions because this is their strength? For me this is emotional suffering (a problem to be solved), but maybe for him this is exciting and his complaints are not real complaints but his Fe way of influencing me? I don't know.

[ouronis]

From his description the department A supervisors also see this as somewhat of a moral issue (or it could be his misinterpretation?), but anyways they are not teaching him to be diplomatic about it. If department B people are more beta-like as I guessed, they probably won't back off easily either. The HR seems to be very good at calming people down, but I feel the real issues are not being dealt with and the war just keeps going. Hiring more people is one solution but I guess they also have difficulties with that?

The departmental war is definitely out of his control. And I was trying to find ways to reduce the emotional tension for him (as I always do for myself). But maybe instead of reducing, IEIs are looking for more emotional tensions because this is their strength? For me this is emotional suffering (a problem to be solved), but maybe for him this is exciting and his complaints are not real complaints but his Fe way of influencing me? I don't know.

Yeah if you get the sense that someone actually doesn't have a problem with what they're complaining about I wouldn't fuck with it.

[Adam Strange]

If a boss from Department B asks an employee of Department A to do work for them, then the employee should tell the requester to go through his Department A boss, not him, because he’s busy with Department A work.

This way, the employee only has to deal with his own boss.

That company sounds like they are fairly screwed up.

[Vis]

Yeah if you get the sense that someone actually doesn't have a problem with what they're complaining about I wouldn't fuck with it.

I have a hard time telling haha...But when it comes to ethical issues in a workplace I'm not familiar with, I should wait and see. Maybe after a few months the IEI and the SLE-like department B manager will dualize with each other and become friends? There's always hope for that!

[Vis]

If a boss from Department B asks an employee of Department A to do work for them, then the employee should tell the requester to go through his Department A boss, not him, because he’s busy with Department A work.

This way, the employee only has to deal with his own boss.

That company sounds like they are fairly screwed up.

Yes from an organizational level that's the way to deal with this.

This company's HR is SEI and has a warm, family-like atmosphere. His managers are also taking him under their wings and look after him. So he likes it there. The department B trouble might be part of his journey of growth to understand and dualize with other side of beta quadra values? Anyways I will wait and see how things turn out for him.

[ouronis]

I have a hard time telling haha...But when it comes to ethical issues in a workplace I'm not familiar with, I should wait and see. Maybe after a few months the IEI and the SLE-like department B manager will dualize with each other and become friends? There's always hope for that!

One way is if you continuously give them good advice and they still don't do anything about it or they seem uninterested when you talk to them about it.

[Vis]

One way is if you continuously give them good advice and they still don't do anything about it or they seem uninterested when you talk to them about it.

True. I feel an SLE would be a better judge on this. With ILI/IEI interactions there's also the complication of him not understanding my Te way of explanation and reasoning (since Te is his PoLR). Also I might fail to understand his true conundrum because Fe is my PoLR. SLE on the other hand, would understand and explain things in a Ti/Fe kind of way that's more natural for IEI.

[Ave]

Department A is trying to exploit him it seems, based on this description. I've seen similar scenarios where I've worked.

I do think that being more firm when they start giving him orders would help, but if I understand the situation correctly, it's department A that is delegating the tasks for department B? Or does department B directly give the orders?

[Vis]

Department A is trying to exploit him it seems, based on this description. I've seen similar scenarios where I've worked.

I do think that being more firm when they start giving him orders would help, but if I understand the situation correctly, it's department A that is delegating the tasks for department B? Or does department B directly give the orders?

Yes I think the IEI is learning to be more firm when he's dealing with difficult people there, which is part of his self-growth.

Department A is his own department and the supervisors there are very protective of him (SEEs come to aid whenever they see people in need of Se help, and this IEI is good at asking Se help that arouse sympathy). Department B has some overlap with department A, and is ordering him to do some work for them, which department A supervisors don't like. Between the SEE supervisors' creative Fi and IEI's creative Fe, this is interpreted as department B managers not respecting boundaries (SEE supervisors) or taking advantage of the workers (IEI).

After hearing the story my interpretation is department B managers are used to department A workers doing scrap work for them in the past, and simply continued to do so. They are also used to having a very macho/harsh way of giving orders, that gives people the impression that they are not being respectful. If I were the IEI I would 1) just like him, consult with department A supervisors and refuse department B work with legit reasons, 2) do not take offense of department B manager's harsh tones, but fake high Se with him to blend in, and 3) if I can influence the problem solving part to resolve the department conflicts I'd do it, but if I can't I'll accept that it's something out of my control and move on.

The IEI is doing 1) but not 2) and 3) because he thinks the department B's managers need to change. I feel he cares more about changing their attitudes than reducing conflicts and problem solving. The SEE supervisors from department A are also not doing anything to reduce the conflicts, partly because of their history, partly (I'm guessing) because this IEE has the image of a perfect victim, and putting him on the forefront would make department A has the moral high ground.

The high emotional tension he showed frustrated me and I wanted to reduce it. However after writing this post I'm thinking maybe treating this as an ethical issue (rather than resource problem solving) has its merit. Using a Te problem solving way would reduce emotional tensions, but would do nothing to change the department B manager's harsh/demanding way of communication, which is scaring some young/new workers. Using the moral/ethical approach might be more effective to force them to change their attitudes?

[fbx]

I'm describing this from my ILI perspective so there could be some misinterpretations. But I'm doing my best to be objective and accurate. It's a problem that has been going on for months and I'd really appreciate your feedback. Thanks!


This IEI I know recently got himself entangled in a war between two departments in his new job.
He:
- loves this new job and wants to keep it (it gave him a sense of purpose)
- has a good relationship with his supervisors in his own department (let's call it department A. In this department the supervisors are all females, mostly gammas, mostly SEEs)
- he's hard working and has good work ethics in this job (from my own observation)


The problem:
- Managers from another department (let's call it department B) always ask him to do things.
- Department A's supervisors do not think department B's managers should order department A workers to do these things.
- The two departments seem to have a lot of conflict over this.
- I have a feeling (guess) some other people in department A are continuously doing work for department B. That's why they keep asking this IEI to do jobs for them.


The complications and why this becomes an ethical war for the IEI:
- This IEI has some childhood traumas and anxiety issues. He gets anxious whenever someone is talking to him with a tone that's too harsh/demanding.
- It is his moral principle that people should be nice and understanding to each other. If he's angry with me and I point it out, he'd quickly apologize and explain that's not who he is.
- From my observation he tends to socialize with mostly women. With men he only socializes with the very nice/gentle ones or ones who are looking after him
- Department B managers/workers tend to have a very macho/tough communication style (also some anger issues) - this is what's bothering him the most because it triggers his anxiety/trauma memory, and makes him feel he's not being treated as an equal.
(From his descriptions I get a sense that department B people are very SLE/EIE like, but I could be wrong as I haven't seen them personally)
- The IEI has communicated with department B people and HR about their tone being too harsh/demanding. They are more careful with anger now but still have a demanding tone when speaking with him. The IEI is enraged and thinks the only right thing to do is to find a way to force department B managers to change their way of speaking.


From my perspective, I feel the easier solutions are to:
1) consult with his own department supervisor to reduce unnecessary work (if his supervisors don't want him to do it then nobody can complain about him).
2) adapt to the department B manager's communication style (very macho/bro-like, respecting senior's rank and authority) on the surface to reduce emotional suffering - in other words, fake high Se to blend in temporarily.


He's doing solution 1) and is always consulting with his own supervisors, refusing department B managers with legitimate reasons. But he does not want to do solution 2) because he thinks department B managers are wrong by not changing the way they communicate, and he would never be part of them.


At first I was trying to persuade him to choose my more peaceful solutions, but my Te way of speaking is not an effective way to change his mind. Then I feel, from beta quadra values, his ethical war way might be the more appropriate solution for him? What do you think?

Blah blah blah, whose ass has to be wooped, lol

[Vis]

Blah blah blah, whose ass has to be wooped, lol

So, you would encourage this IEI to challenge that manager?

[Ave]

Yes I think the IEI is learning to be more firm when he's dealing with difficult people there, which is part of his self-growth.

Department A is his own department and the supervisors there are very protective of him (SEEs come to aid whenever they see people in need of Se help, and this IEI is good at asking Se help that arouse sympathy). Department B has some overlap with department A, and is ordering him to do some work for them, which department A supervisors don't like. Between the SEE supervisors' creative Fi and IEI's creative Fe, this is interpreted as department B managers not respecting boundaries (SEE supervisors) or taking advantage of the workers (IEI).

After hearing the story my interpretation is department B managers are used to department A workers doing scrap work for them in the past, and simply continued to do so. They are also used to having a very macho/harsh way of giving orders, that gives people the impression that they are not being respectful. If I were the IEI I would 1) just like him, consult with department A supervisors and refuse department B work with legit reasons, 2) do not take offense of department B manager's harsh tones, but fake high Se with him to blend in, and 3) if I can influence the problem solving part to resolve the department conflicts I'd do it, but if I can't I'll accept that it's something out of my control and move on.

The IEI is doing 1) but not 2) and 3) because he thinks the department B's managers need to change. I feel he cares more about changing their attitudes than reducing conflicts and problem solving. The SEE supervisors from department A are also not doing anything to reduce the conflicts, partly because of their history, partly (I'm guessing) because this IEE has the image of a perfect victim, and putting him on the forefront would make department A has the moral high ground.

The high emotional tension he showed frustrated me and I wanted to reduce it. However after writing this post I'm thinking maybe treating this as an ethical issue (rather than resource problem solving) has its merit. Using a Te problem solving way would reduce emotional tensions, but would do nothing to change the department B manager's harsh/demanding way of communication, which is scaring some young/new workers. Using the moral/ethical approach might be more effective to force them to change their attitudes?

I actually think using a Te approach is appropriate here.

Department B are not gonna change. People don't change easily, even if they want to. And when you have a whole group of people who act a certain way and you have acted that way because you are part of the group, that is even more of a reason not to change your behaviors. Individuals from department B are, as individuals, just not gonna change their behavior.

My question was to ask whether the IEI needed to talk to department A about this directly, or whether that wouldn't change anything. Sounds to me like you're right about department B having grown used to asking dep. A for favors in the past, and now it became a "ritual". As long as they sense a weakness they will continue to exploit it. Which is why the fault is mostly department A's in my analysis. They are being poor leaders by not telling dep. B what their limits are, and letting this fall on the shoulders of their subordinate. Sad.

Edit: The thing to do is here is to define each person's role, based on what is mentioned in their work contract. If a person asks another to do something, and the person being asked is asked to do something not in the limits of their work contract then they can say no, and depending on where the workplace is located, there are often worker protections that ensure against these things. At least in Europe. America is different in that you can fire someone overnight for whatever reason it seems. Ultimately, it depends on these factors, and who exactly has the authority (as per the rulings of the company here) to order who to do what. I don't have any of this information, so it is impossible for me to give more informed adivse about what the IEI needs to do here.

[VewyScawwyNawcissist]

talk to the manager

[Milo]

This sounds like a typical Harmonizing-Dominant conflict. It's not appropriate for him since this conflict never ends. This happens in H-D couples who have been together for 20+ years, the conflict is still the same. D is harsh in communication and demands something to be done for them, while H is nice and peacekeeping and resents D's communication style rebuking them for it. If you show him descriptions of D and N could he catch on to what's going on. Continuing this conflict doesn't bring any productive solutions.

[Vis]

I actually think using a Te approach is appropriate here.

Department B are not gonna change. People don't change easily, even if they want to. And when you have a whole group of people who act a certain way and you have acted that way because you are part of the group, that is even more of a reason not to change your behaviors. Individuals from department B are, as individuals, just not gonna change their behavior.

My question was to ask whether the IEI needed to talk to department A about this directly, or whether that wouldn't change anything. Sounds to me like you're right about department B having grown used to asking dep. A for favors in the past, and now it became a "ritual". As long as they sense a weakness they will continue to exploit it. Which is why the fault is mostly department A's in my analysis. They are being poor leaders by not telling dep. B what their limits are, and letting this fall on the shoulders of their subordinate. Sad.

Edit: The thing to do is here is to define each person's role, based on what is mentioned in their work contract. If a person asks another to do something, and the person being asked is asked to do something not in the limits of their work contract then they can say no, and depending on where the workplace is located, there are often worker protections that ensure against these things. At least in Europe. America is different in that you can fire someone overnight for whatever reason it seems. Ultimately, it depends on these factors, and who exactly has the authority (as per the rulings of the company here) to order who to do what. I don't have any of this information, so it is impossible for me to give more informed adivse about what the IEI needs to do here.

Thank you. Definitely department A has been unclear about responsibilities before. This place could probably use some management consultation, but right now all the past histories and personal emotions are clouding rational judgements.

We are in Canada and this company is pretty big and reputable. The supervisors made a point telling him he can refuse work for legit reasons. I think there's relatively low risk of him being fired over this, but he is worried that he's gradually losing favour with the nice SEI HR because of repeated drama on this issue...

[Vis]

This sounds like a typical Harmonizing-Dominant conflict. It's not appropriate for him since this conflict never ends. This happens in H-D couples who have been together for 20+ years, the conflict is still the same. D is harsh in communication and demands something to be done for them, while H is nice and peacekeeping and resents D's communication style rebuking them for it. If you show him descriptions of D and N could he catch on to what's going on. Continuing this conflict doesn't bring any productive solutions.

I haven't thought of that before. Thanks for reminding me!

[Ave]

Thank you. Definitely department A has been unclear about responsibilities before. This place could probably use some management consultation, but right now all the past histories and personal emotions are clouding rational judgements.

We are in Canada and this company is pretty big and reputable. The supervisors made a point telling him he can refuse work for legit reasons. I think there's relatively low risk of him being fired over this, but he is worried that he's gradually losing favour with the nice SEI HR because of repeated drama on this issue...

You're welcome.

If he doesn't fear being fired and you think there is relatively little actual risk of him getting fired, then he's probably in a good position to say no more often, because the issue of getting fired is ultimately what it comes down to.

Lol at the nice SEI HR. Maybe she'll find his bravado attractive, if he fights back! It could go either way, in terms of how she sees him. Women love a bad boy. Well, some women at least. Haha.

[Vis]

Recent development: The department B manager turns out to be LIE, IEI's supervisor (relation). I misjudged when the IEI said he's being treated like a slave by that guy. I was thinking along the hierarchical and ranking direction and LIE's not like that. What the IEI actually meant is the supervisor likes to get his way (true for LIE), and the IEI's Te PoLR makes it difficult for him to explain/justify why he's doing things a certain way to the impatient LIE. I think they'll have more drama, but as long as both of them are dedicated to work, it will sort out eventually.

The IEI also met an SLE coworker, who's not the finest specimen of that type. Doesn't like the work and did some sneaky dishonest dealings. To my surprise, the IEI, usually troubled by interpersonal problems, seems not that worried about this SLE. As long as he's doing the right things, he will not be afraid of the SLE's corrupted tricks. (I'm getting a grip on how betas think now)

[crazymaisy]

SLE are always corrupted tricksters at some point, and often, like my two kids, IEI daughter, and her younger brother is SLE ... less than two years apart. She loves him, she is honest as the day is long, and he is so corrupt.

Duals are awesome.

[Northstar]

IEI are very good at being dishonest.

[Adam Strange]

IEI are very good at being dishonest.

I think I’ve seen this myself.

I have an IEI cousin, and when we were kids, you couldn’t rely on anything she said being true. I liked her a lot, but I couldn’t understand how she could live her life by lying all the time, about everything. I mean, I knew she had trouble with facts (but never opinions), but almost nothing she said was true. At some point, I just stopped believing anything she said and just took our relationship at face value.

If you can’t get what you want through force, then you have to turn towards subterfuge.


*EDIT*
Let me add that she doesn’t seem to lie now that we’re older. At least, not that I can tell.

I now know several IEIs, males and females, and while all of them seem to tell me things that contradict what they have said before (Lies? Embellishments? Bad memory?), the most mature ones are careful with the truth. When they get to a place where talking might disadvantage them, they just stop talking.

To me, this looks like very competent diplomacy. Lol.

[Northstar]

I think I’ve seen this myself.

I have an IEI cousin, and when we were kids, you couldn’t rely on anything she said being true. I liked her a lot, but I couldn’t understand how she could live her life by lying all the time, about everything. I mean, I knew she had trouble with facts (but never opinions), but almost nothing she said was true. At some point, I just stopped believing anything she said and just took our relationship at face value.

If you can’t get what you want through force, then you have to turn towards subterfuge.


*EDIT*
Let me add that she doesn’t seem to lie now that we’re older. At least, not that I can tell.

I now know several IEIs, males and females, and while all of them seem to tell me things that contradict what they have said before (Lies? Embellishments? Bad memory?), the most mature ones are careful with the truth. When they get to a place where talking might disadvantage them, they just stop talking.

To me, this looks like very competent diplomacy. Lol.

Fe creatives have a great disconnect between what they present to the world and what they actually feel. IEI will show emotions and say things that lead to the outcome they think is best (maybe for everyone, in their opinion). They aren't honest in the sense of transparency.

This can seem very fake and false especially to Fi valuers. But the reverse is also true, Fe creatives may feel that Fi creatives are using people and pretending to have a relationship distance with them that isn't real.

[EUDAEMONIUM]

This person is going to have to get a thicker skin and learn to stick up for themselves. No grand strategy, just the way it is.

One thing I can say as a Beta NF is that they should not try to be as "Se" as everyone. It's cringe and you won't be comfortable doing it anyway.