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Thread: Dealing with conflicts with ESI mom and incredibly toxic SLE dad

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    epic gamer moment RadishLive's Avatar
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    Default Dealing with conflicts with ESI mom and incredibly toxic SLE dad

    Hey Alphas, I'm ILE-Ne (I think) and I am 18 years old (almost 19) and I just need a little bit of help from my own kind (at least I think you are lol, but I am pretty convinced I'm ILE, especially after what I'm about to write about) since I really don't have anybody else to talk to about this at this point. I graduated high school last year amidst all of the COVID lockdowns and school restrictions, and when I graduated I didn't feel like I was on the right path. I lost all of my friends because I saw them less over COVID, and I stopped playing video games for my health, which in turn grew us a bit distant. I left the year off on a really bad mark, and since then, I've struggled to get my foot in the door because I'm uncertain about everything and what exactly I want to do, and moving out and whatnot, and still feeling connected to my parents for safety and guidance. However this has proven to be extremely upsetting for both of them, who both take frustrations at my levels of uncertainty and 'aimlessness'.

    I originally had a job as a mobile phone technician for about 6 months, and then decided it wasn't for me in June of 2021, because I was just alone and sitting all day, repairing the same phones over and over again, often breaking them accidentally and causing lots of accidental damages to them. Since then I have not gotten a job yet because I have been very scared of leaving the house and have been very unsure about what job would be the most enjoyable, in typical Ne fashion. The problem is with my parents. My mom is an ESI, and my dad is an SLE. They have been divorced for a very long time, since I was a little kid. They both cause immense problems for me often, so I often find myself flip-flopping between each parent when I've just been fed up enough with the other, and then everything starts great with the other one, but then it just devolves into madness, and then I go to the other parent thinking things will be better, and then it's just not. I've been in this vicious cycle since they got divorced, thinking that 'going to mom's will be better for me', and then when mom frustrates me to no end, I jump on the dad train, thinking that 'he'll give me more freedom' and then he just gets unbelievably pushy and forceful, and then I go to mom's for comfort thinking things will be better, and then, well you get the point. It's a neverending cycle, and entering adulthood and especially through studying personality theory, I have realized I have been hypnotized by trying to bounce between them, when I never really stopped to realize that they're both terrible for me.

    For context, the ESI mom is very empathetic and welcoming about problems, in typical Fi fashion, but she is a relentless perfectionist who has extreme trouble with any ounce of chaos around her, even something as little as a laptop that's already being used being 'left on the counter'. She gets incredibly nervous when things are even remotely out of place, even something as small as another person's phone making notification sounds. Of course as someone who kind of is the definition of chaos, this is frustrating to her, and her being in a position of power as the mother of the house, she asks me to stop, which in turn frustrates me because I often never have fun there. Everyone in her house developed the perception that I was introverted, despite being very talkative at school with tons of energy levels, simply because of the fact that I always stayed in my room because they always frustrated me to no ends, perfecting everything I did, to the point that I wasn't even sure what I could do downstairs. I try to do something fun and then mom tries to warn me of all of the consequences, and then that just ruins the fun, and it always feels like I'm walking on thin ice at all times. Our arguments usually end in shouting matches, frustrated at each other for god knows what reason. Talking to her about ideas and things I might want to do for fun usually results in, "Yeah that sounds fun, but you can't realistically do that until you've done step A., step B. step, C. D. E. F. and then I just feel hopeless every time she talks, because in my eyes now I'm just being bombarded with all the ways that my ideas aren't possible or 'won't work out realistically' and then it makes me feel like I can't do anything I thought of. Often when asking her for advice, she tries to give simplistic solutions, insisting that 'this is the right way and you need to take these steps to get where you want' but that's not what I was asking for, I was trying to experiment and talk things out, but she sees it as 'useless and unproductive with no purpose'.

    SLE dad is another story. You'd think we get along great but a lot of times that's not the case. Different story here; me and my SLE dad have a ton of the same interests and talk about a ton of the same things, unlike mom, who is often very different from me personality wise. We outwardly talk very similar, we both have good people skills, etc. We both like fixing things, cars, making food, same movies, music, technology, guns, computers, etc. I mean, you name it and we probably both like it. But he often goes about it in very different ways often. For one, being a Declaring Farsighted Negativist Ni/Se valuer, he is constantly giving me incredibly long detailed speeches about what the car 'doesn't have' and how to 'prevent' whatever it is I could 'possibly' fuck up on, and furthermore because he is Declaring, he never stops talking and whenever I try to interrupt him to say something, it's almost near impossible because he has this crazy ability to manage to keep talking and block out any god damn outside responses from anyone until he is finished with everything he has to say, to the point where even visibly and audibly outrageous acts of yelling at him won't even manage to get him to stop talking and listen. For example, we're both big into cars, but we go about dealing with them in different ways. I tried learning stick-shift on one of his cars, because I thought manual was a fun idea to try out. It wasn't. Not because manuals suck, they're awesome, but they were awesome after he stopped fucking lecturing me about everything wrong I was doing and opening up a million different things to 'watch out for'; when I was able to take driving the manual into my own hands and just go through trial-and-error with no worries, it was awesome and super fun. I often get in the prospect of him being seemingly very fun, since we have a lot of the same interests, but he just manages to ruin it with all of this lecturing and correction and foresight, and it's annoying. Furthermore, when I tell him that I want him to stop forcing advice onto me, because I want to have fun and experiment with the car rather than be bombarded with lectures, he tells me 'well how are you going to improve and do things the right way like they should be done?' and I tell him, 'guess what? that's why I want you to stop talking, because that's not fun and I want to enjoy riding the stick-shift, not feel on edge every time I drive the damn thing.' and he just gets incredibly defensive, insisting that he is doing me a service by giving me this planning, despite how much I do worse with it. Not to mention, being an SLE of course, he is the definition of stereotypical masculinity. He's a total sex addict, cannot look at a single woman without even making a single comment about her boobs, physical appearance, or how he would 'like to nail her hard'. He's a complete pickup artist, spending hours at a time looking at redpill-esque advice on YouTube trying to learn intricate strategies on how to attract and seduce women, along with how to pick 'high-value women' (or whatever the fuck that is supposed to mean) and how to 'keep them in their place', and how to pay attention to 'sexual market value'... smh I don't fucking understand it but he insists on teaching me these things as 'things I must know for my life' for some god forsaken reason. While that's bad enough, the problem is not necessarily with his views, but how he forces them onto me. He's constantly lecturing me on these principles of how 'women are designed to operate' and how every single thing I do is, for some reason, 'not getting you laid or getting you any pussy anytime soon', which is not fun considering I just want to live my life and not have to worry about playing these creepy 'seduction games' with any girl I walk past, despite the fact that he constantly berates me for not doing so. He always tells me to 'joke around' with girls, which I obviously overdo being Ne and all, and then he just says 'that is joker behavior, not flirty behavior, and girls don't play around and give their time and their pussy to jokers like that', often endlessly pushing this on me because I can't ever stop joking around and get serious... as if I cared? So what?? Well hell, shoot me I guess, guilty as charged... I love joking around and making people laugh all the time and trolling endlessly and being goofy all the time, I mean for god sakes I'm an ENTP, why on earth would I ever stop doing that just to have mostly meaningless sex with girls I don't find attractive lol?? Anyways, he is also an intense conspiracy theorist, also pushing those views intensely onto me. Despite being an ST, he is highly mystical and always tries to seek out these erratic 'mysteries and laws of succeeding in life' in typical Ni fashion, always telling me to 'visualize what I want' despite that not making any sense to me whatsoever since that's not how I operate since I just like to experiment. For him, these 'visualizations' he tells himself are often fantasies of wanting more money, more properties, more success, more safety, and more titties. And no I'm not joking about that last one, I'm dead serious. But like I said, the problem is not that he believes these things; I find it a bit weird and not functional for me personally but I understand that it works for him, but the major problem is that he insists on having me follow his laws, as his righteous 'son who is his blood' (as if I am indebted to him for my birth, which is not something I even asked for?). When I politely reject his suggestions (which I never asked for in the first place), he forcefully insists and raises his voice incredibly loud to try and 'get the point across' because I 'am not listening to him', then resorting to explaining how 'I am a failure and am doing nothing with my life and will never succeed and will end up homeless' simply because I haven't figured out which job would be fun for me to commit to, only 6 months after my high school graduation which is not even a long time; the way he makes it sound is as if I am a 35 year old living in my mom's basement who has never accomplished anything, which is stupid considering I am only fucking 18 years old and trying to figure things out as I go. He has undeniably high expectations of 'his children, aka his blood' and expects that because I am his son that I am indebted to honor him, which obviously being Se role, does not fly with me ever. He then usually fits off in rage because I try to tell him every way that his reasoning is not the standard.

    Sorry, long post lmao Dad's was long but that's only because my problems are with him at the moment, I'm sure if I went back with mom I would write up a list just as long. One common theme with both of them were at my apparent 'lack of action' and that I needed to just 'take steps to get moving' while I'm still in the process of considering what I even want to do. They're wanting me to get started when I'm not even sure it is what I want to do, which is obviously counterintuitive, since I can't get started when I'm uncertain about what I would like to commit to. Both things they mentioned is that I need to 'take action' and 'stop considering and start taking steps to get going', which I would love to absolutely do, if I had any idea what it is that I am taking action towards and if I'm settled on it in the first place.

    At this point, even surprisingly my very empathetic mom is hurling name-calls at me about my indecisiveness and 'being a burden and not making a decision', and of course my dad is just telling me I'm a full blown failure at this point, because it's been 6 months since my graduation and I'm still not sure what job would be fun to commit to, rather than 35 years... smh it frustrates me.

    I have no other guidance to rely on, except for my mom's therapist, who is actually an INFJ in MBTI (unsure about her sociotype, she talks a lot about boundaries and Fi stuff that my mom has problems with, so I'd assume EII) and seems to get me alright for the most part, but she's on a virtual call, not in real life sadly, and I don't have any clear cut regularly scheduled visitations with her, so it makes it hard to meet up with her. Being Ne, she is not hard or forceful with advice, often just theorizing about alternatives and working through them with me rather than forcing solutions and 'action', which is nice, but like I said, it's hard to meet up with her regularly, and she is not a stable resource to continually help me out day-to-day because she is not an in-person therapist. She's really the only person I have; talking with my mom is not a major source of conflict like it is with forceful SLE dad, but it often does result in some frustration among us, to the point where we don't really get anywhere at all and I never take her advice, even compared to dad. Like I said, I lost all of my friends for the most part, and mostly I feel completely alone and lost, so I don't really have anyone else to reach out to. Most of the people I tend to reach out to are always somehow Se/Ni valuers, which always frustrates me. I'm not sure what to do. I know this was super long, and I'm sorry about that, but any Alphas out there, if I even am one lol, what do you think your tips would be? Maybe I'm not an Alpha, and my attempt at help might just be unpleasant to deal with, but I know that things with known Se/Ni valuers are not working for me. I try asking mom and dad for help, and mom is mostly only good at empathy and comfort for the most part but that's it, and dad is too forceful and a lot of stuff just doesn't work with either of them. Any tips for any Alphas out there, or even just any Ne/Si valuers, since Se/Ni seems to be the biggest point of trouble for me in my life? Thanks!
    Last edited by RadishLive; 01-20-2022 at 09:03 AM.

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    Uncle Ave ipbanned's Avatar
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    Hi. I'm not alpha, I'm gamma your opposite quadra, but I just want to chime in.

    I think it's normal not knowing what you want to do at your age, and experimenting with things, but I think you know that based on your post. The ideal situation would be one where you can just take the time to think and try your hand at different types of activity and see what you like, learn about yourself. Do you have any more distant family, possibly alphas that could house you temporarily, in exchange possibly for some garden or housework? Have you considered communal living? Though I suppose since you lost contact with your friends that will be more difficult because it's usually through friends and word of mouth that people find out about this stuff, though could always go online and do some searches, start with a google search on communal living in your area.

    You could also consider work away, which is a platform where can get in contact with people who will house you on their property in exchange for work, often it's agriculture from what I hear, but I have a cousin who did that and learned woodwork, for example. And what you learn there wouldn't have to be your main job, it could be a useful skill you learn while considering what you want to do later. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workaway
    L'âme a ses raisons que la raison ne connaît point

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    Psychology BSc and statistics MSc Armitage's Avatar
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    Hi Ravash7,

    Although I'm neither your target audience, I do feel you. In addition, my Ni/Se and Te/Fi is not what you're looking for, but it might help me understand the behaviour of your mother and to lesser extent your father as well. Also, I do am strong in your NeTi as a LIE, even though it isn't my modus operandi, I have been mistaken for an ILE more than once. I'll make an effort to engage the NeTi-perspective more for the advice, but first I'll try and analyse the problem. As a consequence, however, my post becomes less structured where I try to engage my NeTi.

    Se-doms are generally impatient and restless, because they cannot see the long-term, and do desire results. Your mom sounds a bit neurotic, which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with her personality type as an ESI, but more with her as an individual. Your father's interest in conspiracy theories and mysticism might not be what you expect from SLEs, but I have noticed this to be highly typical for their IEI duals. IEI's intoverted intuition directs them towards visions and symbolism, and their emphasis on human impact Fe makes them prioritize the theories that affect people the most, while their Te-polr makes them overlook the evidence for or against these theories. In essence, it seems that your father is subconsciously trying to dual-seek through his interest in mysticism.

    Both of your parents seem to just want action. Your mother is probably the one who minds less what type of action, whereas your father has already set out in his mind what you should logically be doing to be a "winner". Regarding your empathic mother, I would propose telling her that you can't get anything done, because you have gotten depressed, since you have lossed all of your friends since graduating high-school during COVID-19. In order to get her off your back, tell her that you need regular therapy to work on this. This last bit is important, because without offering a solution to her, she will start looking for one herself and try pushing it onto you, because you're her child and she has to help you. My own mother is an ESI as well. I think that it will calm her down a bit when she sees that you're working on yourself through therapy, but it's no guarantee, however. It will lessen her anxiety, but the minor daily frustrations, due to miscommunication are likely to remain, because of the differences in types.

    Other ideas I had are:
    You can do more chores around the house, and show your mom that way that you're doing something.
    Maybe learning how to play an instrument is something you would like doing.
    Or perhaps making art?
    Taking an active interest in sports might also work.
    Learning how to cook?
    Gardening?
    Or deepening your mechanical knowledge? Especially skills that will are deemd "useful" are good ways to persuade your mother, and masculine skills to convince your father.
    You could also take your old job back to show her progress.
    Choosing a follow-up study will also work and help you make new friends.
    Getting into a relationship might temporarily distract her, only to double down onto you for finding a job, because now you also need to take care of your partner.
    Volunteering work will help. ( But don't volunteer as a tribute, I wouldn't recommend it. )
    You might go loan or work, in order to go travelling through Europe for a year, to evade your parents and to get to know yourself better without your parents on your back.
    You could also go camping in a tent somewhere, to flee from your parents for a while and it's cheap. You could even describe it as "wilderness survival" to your dad, LOL.
    I also had the same idea as Uncle Ave; I don't know how close you are to your grandparents and if they're even alive still, but you might want to consider asking them if you can move in with them? Or perhaps you could go live with an uncle or aunt?
    You can also try and go live on your own.
    Another option would be to go for certification. This can be anything from first aid up to cooking. Whatever comes to mind, and can last from a couple months to a year. If these are physical courses, it would also allow you to make new friends with shared interests.
    Online certification is also possible. I don't know if you like programming, but this can be learned through online courses. I think your mom will be happy to pay for them, if you tell her that programming is a marketable skill.
    And if all else fails, you can build a rocket and become the next Elon Musk, because on Mars your parents sure won't bother you.

    These are all the possible options I could think of. Especially the certification allows you to come up with anything that you like yourself and try it out. Tell your mom that you need this, in order to find out what you want to do for a living or study, and that you get a nice certificate from it for on your Curriculum Vitae ( CV ). She needs to see that you're making progress in life, but it don't think that it matters to her as much what progress. Some people in this thread advice you to lie to your own mother, but I would discourage you from doing so. It would greatly upset her, when she finds out. My feeling is that she genuinely means well and just wants to know that you'll have found your way when she is no longer there. That's the intrinsic motivation that drives many parents to pressure their children.

    The ideas I thought of will be less effective with your father, however, because he's Fi-polr and it seems that his Ti-has already made up his mind that you should become just like him, in order to be successful. There's less wiggle room there and in addition to that, there's no overruling SLEs at their own Se game... Your mother doesn't seem to have this clear-cut idea of what you have to become in life. You might try and get away with some, not all, of your Ne activities with your mom, if you tell her that you're experimenting to "find your passion." And when she starts critiques your idea, you might Fi-respond with: "How can you tell me what my passion is, if I have yet to discover it? You cannot decide for me who I am!" or "How will I ever be able to take care of myself, if you don't let me learn how to deal with it when things don't go according to plan? If you tell me everything beforehand, I'll never become self-supporting!" Just one thing, don't lie to her.

    Anyway, even though I'm no Alpha, I hope that I have provided you with some options that look worth considering to you. I trust on your skill and insight to pick the ones you like best. Or you might also try and gonna catch 'em all!

    In general, keep trying out new Ne-things to find your passion, and most important of all, experiment with social activities that'll help you make new friends. Perhaps also try to get in touch again with the old ones, we all have smartphones nowadays that can be used for more than pocket protectors. ;^) I'd say that you need friends more than you need a job or study, right now. And perhaps your empathic mom even agrees with that, if you tell her? And on a deeper level your dad possibly too. But when you tell him this, he'll probably make you go to the Gym to make new friends, which you might or might not enjoy.

    Whatever you choose to do, I wish you the best of luck. Hang in there, the pandemic is though for all of us, and especially for us who still need to explore the world. It'll get better.
    Another idea, because I neither could do many of the physical hobbies I enjoyed before the pandemic, I picked up roleplaying gaming online on Roll20. It's free and I would say fun, and in my experience it's been a good way to make new friends too. So there's another option for you to look into. I'm willing to share you my favourite Science-fiction roleplaying books, if you'd like? Then I'll send you a private WeTransfer link.
    Last edited by Armitage; 01-20-2022 at 03:25 PM.

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    "In person" seems important to you. You mention you lost your friends due to covid. If they have not passed, are you sure this is the case? Maybe you have your own reasons to not initiate contact. Regarding the therapist, I would presume that online presence facilitates accessibility.

    Edit: sorry, I just saw you wrote "covid lockdowns"
    Last edited by Kalinoche buenanoche; 01-20-2022 at 02:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravash7 View Post
    Hey Alphas, I'm ILE-Ne (I think) and I am 18 years old (almost 19) and I just need a little bit of help from my own kind (at least I think you are lol, but I am pretty convinced I'm ILE, especially after what I'm about to write about) since I really don't have anybody else to talk to about this at this point. I graduated high school last year amidst all of the COVID lockdowns and school restrictions, and when I graduated I didn't feel like I was on the right path. I lost all of my friends because I saw them less over COVID, and I stopped playing video games for my health, which in turn grew us a bit distant. I left the year off on a really bad mark, and since then, I've struggled to get my foot in the door because I'm uncertain about everything and what exactly I want to do, and moving out and whatnot, and still feeling connected to my parents for safety and guidance. However this has proven to be extremely upsetting for both of them, who both take frustrations at my levels of uncertainty and 'aimlessness'.

    I originally had a job as a mobile phone technician for about 6 months, and then decided it wasn't for me in June of 2021, because I was just alone and sitting all day, repairing the same phones over and over again, often breaking them accidentally and causing lots of accidental damages to them. Since then I have not gotten a job yet because I have been very scared of leaving the house and have been very unsure about what job would be the most enjoyable, in typical Ne fashion. The problem is with my parents. My mom is an ESI, and my dad is an SLE. They have been divorced for a very long time, since I was a little kid. They both cause immense problems for me often, so I often find myself flip-flopping between each parent when I've just been fed up enough with the other, and then everything starts great with the other one, but then it just devolves into madness, and then I go to the other parent thinking things will be better, and then it's just not. I've been in this vicious cycle since they got divorced, thinking that 'going to mom's will be better for me', and then when mom frustrates me to no end, I jump on the dad train, thinking that 'he'll give me more freedom' and then he just gets unbelievably pushy and forceful, and then I go to mom's for comfort thinking things will be better, and then, well you get the point. It's a neverending cycle, and entering adulthood and especially through studying personality theory, I have realized I have been hypnotized by trying to bounce between them, when I never really stopped to realize that they're both terrible for me.

    For context, the ESI mom is very empathetic and welcoming about problems, in typical Fi fashion, but she is a relentless perfectionist who has extreme trouble with any ounce of chaos around her, even something as little as a laptop that's already being used being 'left on the counter'. She gets incredibly nervous when things are even remotely out of place, even something as small as another person's phone making notification sounds. Of course as someone who kind of is the definition of chaos, this is frustrating to her, and her being in a position of power as the mother of the house, she asks me to stop, which in turn frustrates me because I often never have fun there. Everyone in her house developed the perception that I was introverted, despite being very talkative at school with tons of energy levels, simply because of the fact that I always stayed in my room because they always frustrated me to no ends, perfecting everything I did, to the point that I wasn't even sure what I could do downstairs. I try to do something fun and then mom tries to warn me of all of the consequences, and then that just ruins the fun, and it always feels like I'm walking on thin ice at all times. Our arguments usually end in shouting matches, frustrated at each other for god knows what reason. Talking to her about ideas and things I might want to do for fun usually results in, "Yeah that sounds fun, but you can't realistically do that until you've done step A., step B. step, C. D. E. F. and then I just feel hopeless every time she talks, because in my eyes now I'm just being bombarded with all the ways that my ideas aren't possible or 'won't work out realistically' and then it makes me feel like I can't do anything I thought of. Often when asking her for advice, she tries to give simplistic solutions, insisting that 'this is the right way and you need to take these steps to get where you want' but that's not what I was asking for, I was trying to experiment and talk things out, but she sees it as 'useless and unproductive with no purpose'.

    SLE dad is another story. You'd think we get along great but a lot of times that's not the case. Different story here; me and my SLE dad have a ton of the same interests and talk about a ton of the same things, unlike mom, who is often very different from me personality wise. We outwardly talk very similar, we both have good people skills, etc. We both like fixing things, cars, making food, same movies, music, technology, guns, computers, etc. I mean, you name it and we probably both like it. But he often goes about it in very different ways often. For one, being a Declaring Farsighted Negativist Ni/Se valuer, he is constantly giving me incredibly long detailed speeches about what the car 'doesn't have' and how to 'prevent' whatever it is I could 'possibly' fuck up on, and furthermore because he is Declaring, he never stops talking and whenever I try to interrupt him to say something, it's almost near impossible because he has this crazy ability to manage to keep talking and block out any god damn outside responses from anyone until he is finished with everything he has to say, to the point where even visibly and audibly outrageous acts of yelling at him won't even manage to get him to stop talking and listen. For example, we're both big into cars, but we go about dealing with them in different ways. I tried learning stick-shift on one of his cars, because I thought manual was a fun idea to try out. It wasn't. Not because manuals suck, they're awesome, but they were awesome after he stopped fucking lecturing me about everything wrong I was doing and opening up a million different things to 'watch out for'; when I was able to take driving the manual into my own hands and just go through trial-and-error with no worries, it was awesome and super fun. I often get in the prospect of him being seemingly very fun, since we have a lot of the same interests, but he just manages to ruin it with all of this lecturing and correction and foresight, and it's annoying. Furthermore, when I tell him that I want him to stop forcing advice onto me, because I want to have fun and experiment with the car rather than be bombarded with lectures, he tells me 'well how are you going to improve and do things the right way like they should be done?' and I tell him, 'guess what? that's why I want you to stop talking, because that's not fun and I want to enjoy riding the stick-shift, not feel on edge every time I drive the damn thing.' and he just gets incredibly defensive, insisting that he is doing me a service by giving me this planning, despite how much I do worse with it. Not to mention, being an SLE of course, he is the definition of stereotypical masculinity. He's a total sex addict, cannot look at a single woman without even making a single comment about her boobs, physical appearance, or how he would 'like to nail her hard'. He's a complete pickup artist, spending hours at a time looking at redpill-esque advice on YouTube trying to learn intricate strategies on how to attract and seduce women, along with how to pick 'high-value women' (or whatever the fuck that is supposed to mean) and how to 'keep them in their place', and how to pay attention to 'sexual market value'... smh I don't fucking understand it but he insists on teaching me these things as 'things I must know for my life' for some god forsaken reason. While that's bad enough, the problem is not necessarily with his views, but how he forces them onto me. He's constantly lecturing me on these principles of how 'women are designed to operate' and how every single thing I do is, for some reason, 'not getting you laid or getting you any pussy anytime soon', which is not fun considering I just want to live my life and not have to worry about playing these creepy 'seduction games' with any girl I walk past, despite the fact that he constantly berates me for not doing so. He always tells me to 'joke around' with girls, which I obviously overdo being Ne and all, and then he just says 'that is joker behavior, not flirty behavior, and girls don't play around and give their time and their pussy to jokers like that', often endlessly pushing this on me because I can't ever stop joking around and get serious... as if I cared? So what?? Well hell, shoot me I guess, guilty as charged... I love joking around and making people laugh all the time and trolling endlessly and being goofy all the time, I mean for god sakes I'm an ENTP, why on earth would I ever stop doing that just to have mostly meaningless sex with girls I don't find attractive lol?? Anyways, he is also an intense conspiracy theorist, also pushing those views intensely onto me. Despite being an ST, he is highly mystical and always tries to seek out these erratic 'mysteries and laws of succeeding in life' in typical Ni fashion, always telling me to 'visualize what I want' despite that not making any sense to me whatsoever since that's not how I operate since I just like to experiment. For him, these 'visualizations' he tells himself are often fantasies of wanting more money, more properties, more success, more safety, and more titties. And no I'm not joking about that last one, I'm dead serious. But like I said, the problem is not that he believes these things; I find it a bit weird and not functional for me personally but I understand that it works for him, but the major problem is that he insists on having me follow his laws, as his righteous 'son who is his blood' (as if I am indebted to him for my birth, which is not something I even asked for?). When I politely reject his suggestions (which I never asked for in the first place), he forcefully insists and raises his voice incredibly loud to try and 'get the point across' because I 'am not listening to him', then resorting to explaining how 'I am a failure and am doing nothing with my life and will never succeed and will end up homeless' simply because I haven't figured out which job would be fun for me to commit to, only 6 months after my high school graduation which is not even a long time; the way he makes it sound is as if I am a 35 year old living in my mom's basement who has never accomplished anything, which is stupid considering I am only fucking 18 years old and trying to figure things out as I go. He has undeniably high expectations of 'his children, aka his blood' and expects that because I am his son that I am indebted to honor him, which obviously being Se role, does not fly with me ever. He then usually fits off in rage because I try to tell him every way that his reasoning is not the standard.

    Sorry, long post lmao Dad's was long but that's only because my problems are with him at the moment, I'm sure if I went back with mom I would write up a list just as long. One common theme with both of them were at my apparent 'lack of action' and that I needed to just 'take steps to get moving' while I'm still in the process of considering what I even want to do. They're wanting me to get started when I'm not even sure it is what I want to do, which is obviously counterintuitive, since I can't get started when I'm uncertain about what I would like to commit to. Both things they mentioned is that I need to 'take action' and 'stop considering and start taking steps to get going', which I would love to absolutely do, if I had any idea what it is that I am taking action towards and if I'm settled on it in the first place.

    At this point, even surprisingly my very empathetic mom is hurling name-calls at me about my indecisiveness and 'being a burden and not making a decision', and of course my dad is just telling me I'm a full blown failure at this point, because it's been 6 months since my graduation and I'm still not sure what job would be fun to commit to, rather than 35 years... smh it frustrates me.

    I have no other guidance to rely on, except for my mom's therapist, who is actually an INFJ in MBTI (unsure about her sociotype, she talks a lot about boundaries and Fi stuff that my mom has problems with, so I'd assume EII) and seems to get me alright for the most part, but she's on a virtual call, not in real life sadly, and I don't have any clear cut regularly scheduled visitations with her, so it makes it hard to meet up with her. Being Ne, she is not hard or forceful with advice, often just theorizing about alternatives and working through them with me rather than forcing solutions and 'action', which is nice, but like I said, it's hard to meet up with her regularly, and she is not a stable resource to continually help me out day-to-day because she is not an in-person therapist. She's really the only person I have; talking with my mom is not a major source of conflict like it is with forceful SLE dad, but it often does result in some frustration among us, to the point where we don't really get anywhere at all and I never take her advice, even compared to dad. Like I said, I lost all of my friends for the most part, and mostly I feel completely alone and lost, so I don't really have anyone else to reach out to. Most of the people I tend to reach out to are always somehow Se/Ni valuers, which always frustrates me. I'm not sure what to do. I know this was super long, and I'm sorry about that, but any Alphas out there, if I even am one lol, what do you think your tips would be? Maybe I'm not an Alpha, and my attempt at help might just be unpleasant to deal with, but I know that things with known Se/Ni valuers are not working for me. I try asking mom and dad for help, and mom is mostly only good at empathy and comfort for the most part but that's it, and dad is too forceful and a lot of stuff just doesn't work with either of them. Any tips for any Alphas out there, or even just any Ne/Si valuers, since Se/Ni seems to be the biggest point of trouble for me in my life? Thanks!
    Awesome post, @Ravash7. If you aren’t ILE, than you are the world’s best ILE imitator.

    I’m not an Alpha, but I do know a few ILEs pretty well and I can tell you what they did, and then you can decide if you want to follow in their footsteps, just to see if it helps you to figure things out.

    Almost all the ILEs that I know have been bartenders at some point. I have no idea why, unless it is a way to experience all Ne, all the time, while learning about people without getting too involved with anyone and still making some money. None of them kept these jobs for long, though, and you seem smart enough about people that bartending might not add much to your knowledge.

    ILEs who have been working for many years seem to settle into jobs that combine technology with short-term projects. Inventor, repair person, buyer for an R&D company, Raman spectrograph designer, etc. Technology plus short term projects.

    For friends, ILEs most often choose LIIs or other ILEs to hang out with. They can work fairly well with LIEs, but both end up friendly-agreeing that the other person is both awesome and clueless.

    ILEs often marry IEIs, maybe because an IEI sees parts of an SLE in the ILE. However, every one of these marriages has ended in an acrimonious divorce. Just so you know.

    The absolute best relationships I’ve ever seen are between two Dual pairs. One ILE-SEI are incredibly happy being married to each other, and the second ILE-SEI are incredibly happy working together. She’s older than he and is married to a male Alpha SF, but man, she is fully in-tune with the ILE. He’s a needy jerk in the relationship and she loves that.

    So now, your problem comes down to recognizing LIIs, other ILEs, and certainly SEIs.

    One word of caution; SEI subtypes are really different from each other, so it’s very important to get the one that’s right for you.

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    Honestly, there's nothing especially weird with what you're experiencing, it's just that you have a good ability to self reflect about it.

    Regarding your ESI mother, I think if you find a part-time job she'll be happy, they like when you do stuff, whatever kind of stuff. Get out of the house and do something, they'll be happy. If you have to, you can lie about your current situation, you don't have to tell them the exact truth. But you must earn some money, that's quite important.

    Your father is going to be old in a couple of years so if if you find him toxic, I'd just think "whatever".

    All extroverts are actually suffering this COVID situation where you can't interact in person, I also lost many friends and acquaintances because of that...I keep in touch sometimes with whatsapp, but meeting in person is something else.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Please some Alpha or Ne-Si come in and talk with this guy. I see all Ni - Se here lol

    ...

    The SLE's habit of giving/pushing every little detail how to do shit is Se lead's way of helping their dual, who are so weak at sensing activties. Remind me of my SEE dad, who always give what my mom call "unnecessary order" when I did some S - activities, she said I'm not that stupid to need these useless advices. But I am, lol, because I don't want to pay any brain cell into those activies, so having someone direct me to do thing is good.
    Last edited by Tarnished; 01-20-2022 at 02:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarnished View Post
    Please some Alpha or Ne-Si come in and talk with this guy. I see all Ni - Se here lol

    ...

    The SLE's habit of giving/pushing every little detail how to do shit is Se lead's way of helping their dual, who are so weak at sensing activties. Remind me of my SEE dad, who always give what my mom call "unnecessary order" when I did some S - activities, she said I'm not that stupid to need these useless advices. But I am, lol, because I don't want to pay any brain cell into those activies, so having someone direct me to do thing is good.
    Calling @MissDucki, calling MissDucki. @Poptart, too. And where is @FreelancePoliceman?

    The thing is that true help comes from in-quadra types and from Duals by demonstration, and crappy help comes in the form of advice on how to live (and which mostly serves as a bad example) from out-of-quadra types.

    "To be happy, marry a Dual. To be a Philosopher, marry a Conflictor."

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    I’ve been called @Baqer would be a good help too, get in here dammit.

    I don’t really have much to mention socionics wise tbh. Simply because I am the only alpha in my family. My family is mostly Se/Ni with my mom being the only Si/Ne user. Im the Black sheep still lmao.

    My only advice is to be honest what you need and create boundaries and distance. My family seems to respect me better when I hold to my guns and just be myself. Don’t get bulldozed by Se. Or just Ne yourself out of a Se situation which I have seen IEE and ILE do. You’re still young. Best advice is when you can is to move out. I was much healthier when I was out of the house.

    Make room for comfort things and time to relax and explore.

    Though. If you NEED someone to always direct you, you may need to re-evaluate your type. Usually I don’t order ILE around to do Si stuff, usually they get fussy and I step in and we go back and forth to find what is comfortable for them. Or at least, they give me an idea and I start figuring out how I can create it legitimately. Like I know when I have Ne doms at my work trying to find clothes they like the seriousness and open-ness I take to legit helping them lol. They usually like the outcome.

    Hope this helps a bit!

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    @Ravash7

    Hey, I seem to have been in a similar situation as you (though my parents lived together). Like others have been saying, it sounds like you need to get out of there. As an Alpha who's lived with other Alphas, I'd recommend living with Alphas if you can, but if there's any way you can get another place to live, it'd probably be better than your current situation. Living alone is probably going to be difficult/impossible financially, so that's another reason to find roommates you get along with. Yet another reason to find good roommates is that I'd guess that no matter your situation, you'll still be reluctant to give up the material security your parents provide, and stepping out completely into the unknown when you're 18 is enough to make even an Ne type hesitate. Living with people you like should alleviate that worry a lot, and help you face moving out/your future more optimistically.

    Unfortunately you've said you've lost most of your friends. That'll probably make finding people to live with more difficult, and I'd guess it might sap your motivation to address things. When I lived with my family, at least, not having any other influences, I began to feel like I couldn't do anything about my future, and that made it more difficult for me to think or do anything about it.

    LIIs and ILEs' thought process seems to differ most in how much energy they're willing or able to expend in certain avenues. So I'm not sure if the above will be as true for you; you might just have more energy to remain focused with than I did. But if you are similar to how I was, I'd recommend trying to make a concrete plan to get out beyond "find roommates and get out within an indefinite time frame," For me, I realized there was a grad program that would pay me to study something I loved, so I did that. If you're American, there are companies in Alaska that will provide housing and pay your relocation costs if you work for them, if that appeals to you. I have an SEI friend who did that with a salmon hatchery, and he seems to enjoy it. Many ILEs seem to like the military lifestyle, so you could also think about that (and if you are considering that, please make sure you are thinking before deciding to sign away some years of your life!) Generally, I'd recommend something along these lines that'd force you out rather than just working down at the local Waffle House which doesn't really provide much incentive to get your own place.

    Anyway, good luck, and I hope this was helpful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Calling @MissDucki, calling MissDucki. @Poptart, too. And where is @FreelancePoliceman?

    The thing is that true help comes from in-quadra types and from Duals by demonstration, and crappy help comes in the form of advice on how to live (and which mostly serves as a bad example) from out-of-quadra types.

    "To be happy, marry a Dual. To be a Philosopher, marry a Conflictor."

    I’m afraid I don’t have much to add. My only advice would be to not take your parents bs personally and try to focus on any qualities you might admire or respect in them. It won’t change your parents, but it will make being around them more tolerable.

    As for finding a job that you like—my brother is also ILE and has tried tons of jobs for fun—he has worked at a ski lift, crafted handbags, tutored an autistic kid, resold items he found dumpster diving, worked at an art supplies store, worked as a janitor, etc. He currently works at a gas station. He says that he enjoys it because he gets to sit on a stool behind the counter and read all day. There’s nothing wrong with quitting a job that isn’t for you. Also, I noticed you mentioned losing contact with friends during Covid—job hopping can help you meet new people and make new friends.

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    I think others have some very good insights and advice and I'm glad some alphas also chimed in. Though I agree with Armitage - lying to your mom is a bad idea (though I dunno who suggested that).

    I just want to add @Ravash7 as a suggestion that perhaps doing some kind of family therapy with your mom might help you guys. Not because there is anything wrong with either of you in terms of mental health (there doesn't seem to be), but simply to help you guys communicate and perhaps learn to coexist together even if the itr is bad. What's good about this is that both you and your mom can lay everything you guys need to say down on the table, and there is a third party there to mediate the dialogue to make sure you aeren't talking over each other. You can simply suggest it - I suspect your mom will see this as a sign of maturity and responsibility on your part. Tell her you think seeing a family therapist to help better coexist with her with the endgoal being for you to move out eventually and become a functioning adult - you are still very young and perhaps your mom doesn't understand what this is like for you - ESIs tend to be impatient with problems and expect others to find a solution quickly, but perhaps therapy will help her learn a bit of um...patience, for lack of a better word.

    You could do the same thing with your dad, but my honest opinion is that (based on your post) that he is quiet toxic as a person, no offense. I see more potential in learning to temporarily coexist with your mom, if mine and other's earlier advice of finding roommates/communal living appeals to you less or isn't possible for some reason.

    Best of luck, hope this helps.
    Last edited by ipbanned; 01-20-2022 at 09:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravash7 View Post
    But like I said, the problem is not that he believes these things; I find it a bit weird and not functional for me personally but I understand that it works for him, but the major problem is that he insists on having me follow his laws, as his righteous 'son who is his blood' (as if I am indebted to him for my birth, which is not something I even asked for?). When I politely reject his suggestions (which I never asked for in the first place), he forcefully insists and raises his voice incredibly loud to try and 'get the point across' because I 'am not listening to him', then resorting to explaining how 'I am a failure and am doing nothing with my life and will never succeed and will end up homeless' simply because I haven't figured out which job would be fun for me to commit to, only 6 months after my high school graduation which is not even a long time; the way he makes it sound is as if I am a 35 year old living in my mom's basement who has never accomplished anything, which is stupid considering I am only fucking 18 years old and trying to figure things out as I go. He has undeniably high expectations of 'his children, aka his blood' and expects that because I am his son that I am indebted to honor him, which obviously being Se role, does not fly with me ever. He then usually fits off in rage because I try to tell him every way that his reasoning is not the standard.
    My dad is beta ST, although more likely LSI than SLE, and he has also told me the same thing as the bolded quotes. I'm in a similar situation as you, but after graduating college.....lol .....and my father has the same reaction - that I'm a loser, doing nothing with my life, will be homeless, etc. because I'm also indecisive and commitment-phobic. I wish I could give you good advice to solve your problem (and effectively my own) but all I can really do is relate to you and commiserate.

    But hopefully this will help: I used to be a lot more miserable in regards to my relationship with my father and how he treats me, but now I've ...given up on him, in a sense. I've acknowledged that even though I am his flesh and blood, we are very different people who want different things out of life. I don't expect my father to change for me, and I'm also not going to change for him either.
    Your life and decisions are yours, not his, although I understand that it's difficult when he puts so much pressure on you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravash7 View Post
    One common theme with both of them were at my apparent 'lack of action' and that I needed to just 'take steps to get moving' while I'm still in the process of considering what I even want to do. They're wanting me to get started when I'm not even sure it is what I want to do, which is obviously counterintuitive, since I can't get started when I'm uncertain about what I would like to commit to. Both things they mentioned is that I need to 'take action' and 'stop considering and start taking steps to get going', which I would love to absolutely do, if I had any idea what it is that I am taking action towards and if I'm settled on it in the first place.
    Very, very fucking relatable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravash7 View Post
    For context, the ESI mom is very empathetic and welcoming about problems, in typical Fi fashion, but she is a relentless perfectionist who has extreme trouble with any ounce of chaos around her, even something as little as a laptop that's already being used being 'left on the counter'. She gets incredibly nervous when things are even remotely out of place, even something as small as another person's phone making notification sounds. Of course as someone who kind of is the definition of chaos, this is frustrating to her, and her being in a position of power as the mother of the house, she asks me to stop, which in turn frustrates me because I often never have fun there. Everyone in her house developed the perception that I was introverted, despite being very talkative at school with tons of energy levels, simply because of the fact that I always stayed in my room because they always frustrated me to no ends, perfecting everything I did, to the point that I wasn't even sure what I could do downstairs. I try to do something fun and then mom tries to warn me of all of the consequences, and then that just ruins the fun, and it always feels like I'm walking on thin ice at all times. Our arguments usually end in shouting matches, frustrated at each other for god knows what reason. Talking to her about ideas and things I might want to do for fun usually results in, "Yeah that sounds fun, but you can't realistically do that until you've done step A., step B. step, C. D. E. F. and then I just feel hopeless every time she talks, because in my eyes now I'm just being bombarded with all the ways that my ideas aren't possible or 'won't work out realistically' and then it makes me feel like I can't do anything I thought of. Often when asking her for advice, she tries to give simplistic solutions, insisting that 'this is the right way and you need to take these steps to get where you want' but that's not what I was asking for, I was trying to experiment and talk things out, but she sees it as 'useless and unproductive with no purpose'.
    As an ILE with an EII mom I can relate a lot to some of the stuff you wrote. In my case I just kinda turned into a pseudo delta ST just so she wouldn't bother me. I used to be very uncooperative at home but after getting guilt tripped to death now I do basically all the chores, etc. It's not ideal but I think that's the least I could do for my mum.

    Fi leads are attuned to using moral manipulation to push their Te-lead duals into taking (what they determine) morally correct actions. In case of family, this means family must always support each other, etc. But it takes on the form of "moral obligation" (compare this to SEI that helps spontaneously and without trying to put the other person in a position of debt).
    Essentially from my point of view, the Fi/Te dynamic is about moral obligation and debt. "I do something nice for you/I am your family therefore you are obliged to be nice to me". From their point of view, you neglecting your chores, being mess, etc. is a transgression to that "family duty" I guess.

    One thing that drives me absolutely nuts is how my mum uses guilt to manipulate emotionally (as opposed to Fe egos who simply use expressions and overt emotions). A few times she said I'm evil (not in jest) because I "made" her do the chores (actually I would've done them but she never even asked me at all). Of course it hurts like hell when someone you care about says that kind of shit. Even for a Fi-polr psychopath like me If I was an LSE with their boundless energy I would've done the chores ages ago without anyone asking. From my point of view it's funny how EII are always seen as super empathetic and understanding people as my experience is a bit different. But oh well, I chalk it up to shitty ITR, and if it's family there's no choice but to suck it up basically.

    Oh and another thing. I used to be really lazy and she basically guilt tripped me into getting a job and going to college. Like she hates people that aren't "doing something". For the record, mum had a really strict LSE mum so she might've got her tough side from grandma.

    Oh and finally another piece of advice: move out as soon as you can. The time I lived alone was great, not just for distancing myself from my family a bit but also because it allowed me to develop my Fe and Si (basically having to socialize, taking care of house, detailed stuff, etc. by myself).

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    (compare this to SEI that helps spontaneously and without trying to put the other person in a position of debt)
    she does things no one asked her that can be harmful and does want something in return but doesnt say it. (which i have no opposition to, unless it gets to things that arent within my ability or arent fair, which can be stress and hindrance of dealing with what was not asked + being obligated back to what wasnt asked for). i suspect i know some IEIs who are like that too. LSEs are very like that.
    its not a Fi Fe thing. maybe in some superficial differences, but the guilt tripping over bs and manipulation games is something common in general.
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    i'm afraid it will hurt like hell, i am afraid of screaming and i am afraid of crying, i am afraid of forgetting but i'm not afraid of dying.


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