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Thread: Struggle about gamma introvert activation (ILI & ESI)

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    Question Struggle about gamma introvert activation (ILI & ESI)

    Hello,

    I asked this question on discord but I wanted to write it down on the forum too. Maybe I will have new opinions and thoughts on it.

    I have a fitness trainer (an ESI) with whom I do one session a week. For the first time in several months I found his attitude unpleasant. He insisted that I do a balance exercise with my eyes closed which I couldn't do (really, I tried many times). He wanted to continue it despite my remarks ("I'm going to fall") so I told him I wanted to stop.

    He (in his own way) tried to talk me out of it by provoking me (e.g., by saying "are you sure you want to stop on a failure ?") I didn't say another word to him for the whole hour of the session and I think the experience shook me emotionally. I don't know how to handle the situation because I have the impression that for him it is normal to take risks. However, I told him several times that I don't do fitness for performance but for health. As an ILI, my body and sport are not really confort zones so it's nice to have an ESI to help me but when trust turn into this kind of situation I feel bad and betrayed, I hope that doesn't sound to dramatic but it's true.

    What stood out to me the most was that he seemed to take it lightly and that pissed me off. He asked me at the end of the session if I wanted to say anything to him to which I replied that I preferred to wait to calm down (He understood that but seems to take it like nothing). And now, even after few days, I feel like I haven't calmed down yet. I'm torned because I really like him but I don't really understand.

    I always perceveid the relation like a trust confort zone. He seems to understand everything until this moment. ESI are generally sensitive and clever about other people discomfort and embarrassment. But this day, for the first time I feel crushed and misunderstood. I told him yesterday that I will not see him this week because I'm incomfortable for now, he answered "Yes, no problem". His anwser is not mean of course but it gave me the impression that he don't really care.

    What do you think ?

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    @Nicozeyo, if the ESI instructor had asked me (an LIE) if I wanted to stop on a failure, I'd have said "Yes. Absolutely. I suck at this." And I'd have thought nothing more about it, other than maybe that it was slightly funny, but it didn't mean anything to me.

    That seems to be the way that the ESI is treating the incident, too. But then, Duals are oriented towards each other.

    You seem to be much more sensitive to someone saying that you might be a failure in an area than I am. Hell, I'm a failure in most areas. But I have to say that most of my ILI buddies do not like to fail at anything that they attempt to do. If they don't succeed at something that they try to do, then they often try to re-frame the problem, like, "I solved the problem that they gave me perfectly, but they asked me to solve a different problem, one that I wasn't expecting. They don't know what they are doing. They are idiots."

    Personally, I'd just forget about it. The ESI doesn't see you as a failure, and if he thinks you can't do the balance exercise, then he probably thinks that he needs to find a different way to get you to succeed, because he is a teacher and that is his job. It isn't personal and it doesn't mean that you are a bad person, or that the ESI is a cruel asshole who will tell everyone that you can't balance properly. It just means that you are probably not going to the Olympics this year, and the ESI is planning his next exercise session with perhaps more consideration.

    ESIs are Negativists. They are going to say "Why are you failing?", which is exactly what their over-optimistic Duals need to hear.
    SEEs are Positivists. They are going to say "I'm sure you can do this. If not today, then later. Now I want you to work on that thing that you do so well."

    Now imagine a life spent with each of them. Lol.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 11-30-2021 at 08:55 PM.

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    ILI here and had lots misunderstandings/fights with ESI coworker. Overall activity partners have similar values, but day-to-day interactions might be problematic (especially in work setting, probably would be better as friends). In OP's situation, the ESI appears to be sensitive to your needs before, simply because you are his customer. If he treats you like someone he works with, you'd have more fights long ago.

    I think ESI would be very impatient with ILI's Se weakness (ILI would feel the same way with ESI's Te). In this scenario, he genuinely wants you to toughen up (improve Se), but lacks the mean to do it in a way you can accept (lacking Te).

    If I were you, I would first determine if improvement of balance is an important goal of mine right now. If it is, then do research and devise a way to do it that can effectively improve myself without causing too much overwhelm. Inform the ESI about this and ask him to monitor my exercise. He will see me as a wuss but might also be impressed with how knowledgeable and methodical I am.

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    It happened alot to me. Negativists vs negativists, always make thing look worse than it really is, Sometime it was I who bother them by criticizing their lake of Te and Ne and Ni, and vice versa.

    You can learn by being less sensitive about these thing, because... alot of people would say something even harsher.
    Last edited by Tarnished; 01-30-2022 at 04:26 AM.

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    So, I have news...

    First of all, thanks for your answers. I like the fact that some of you bring to my attention that ILI and ESI are two negativist. It makes sense on some levels.

    My ESI coach became in the last two month grumpy (since the incident in my initial post). Each time, I find him weird about extraverted thinking subject (which is logic because he's ESI and I'm ILI), more details :

    - I wanted to buy a training bike around christmas, so I sent him few picks and said "What do you think ?". He didn't have really an opinion and just said "Nicolas, I'm a coach, not a bike seller." My understanding is that he could have an opinion about sport equipment or anyway being more qualified than myself because he is a big jock. Ultimately, I found him very agressive. I know he wasn't really agressive but the wording is very strange to me. I just wanted an opinion and he showed signs of boredom. I didn't really take it because I knew he is ESi so I just minded to myself that he has a poor Te.

    - I finally buy this training bike and use it few weeks later. I wanted to make a "report" with raw data to him. Because, like a already said : he is the coach. So, I wrote a message with information about distance, speed, etc. He answered me "Hello, it would be nice already." Indeed, I didn't write "Hello" at the beginning of my message (for the first time in 6 months of coaching).
    So, I clearly thought that he was overeacting this time. Once again, I said to myself "He has a tiny Te, ignore it."

    (It is important to know that I didn't see him physically since the session that I described in my first post because he was busy with formations).

    - Then comes the last session in early january, I did the session and sent him that everything was okay. He just answered me "Good, same exercices next week". It was the first time that he didn't change anything in a session program. I adressed him this point and tell him that it was awkward to me to pay him for doing the exact same thing. He take one day to think about it and tell me that he didn't change his mind. I told to myself "It is okay, he takes time to think. Nevermind." So, I sent him "Okay, I'll do it even if you are insolent". If only I knew what will happened next...

    He was annoyed and said things like "I'm the coach, you are not. I have reflected on the session and I am keeping my commitments to you. Now you are denigrating my work." I was kinda surprised because we were always kinda playful to each other until this moment. I said him it was playful, he didn't understand and find my attitude rude (maybe "rude" is a bit too intense but it's the idea). I told him during this conversation that "the relation isn't just a coach-student relation", keep this point in mind, it's important.

    At this point, I was done. I was tanking his weak communication skills since five weeks. For example, he never told me anything about what I explained in my first post despite I asked him many times to tell me what he thought of the situation, he just said things like "when we will see physically"/"it's not important"/"I don't want to be misunderstood" which I found very confusing because I wanted to told him about this point physically but he wanted that I tell him by message, so I did. And when he finally read my explanation, he said "I'll tell you my answer when we will see each other next time." I was : "?!?"

    So, as I said, I was done. I sent back a message where I talked about all the things I just wrote in this post. I told him that I find him very defensive with me. That the communication is clearly unbalanced. I did great efforts to explaining with him and he didn't bother to explain me the single thing I ever asked an explanation for.

    He doesn't answer to this message. I finally sent a message today, after three weeks. And as I could have expected he said "Sorry, my message didn't go. I want to stop the coaching. Goodbye."

    ...

    Obviously. I asked him "Why ?" And he said "Because, it's not a relation student-coach". I said to him "What do you mean, what happened ?" And he said "I just explained." And I don't know if you have already talk to this kind of person when you want specifics or facts and the person just say "No, I had explain everything." So, I make circle, I tried to have an explanation. They never came.

    I don't want to be offensive because I like him but I had the impression to talk to a robot with pre-recorded sentence. He was uncapable to elaborate. He just reapeted himself again and again. Even now, my last message remains without answer. He dares answer "nothing bad" when I asked "What I did which was bad ?"

    I'm sorry if this post is confusing. I can't believe that my coach that I trusted during 6 months with whom I was playful just dropped me like that without any explanation because I dare say "the relation isn't just student-coach" which was just a way (maybe clumsy) to point the fact that I like him, that's all.

    I supposed this story will be a good lesson about trust and people I don't really know even if they seems nice.

    I admit it, I'm sad. It's such a waste for nothing.

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    Psychology BSc and statistics MSc Armitage's Avatar
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    Ah dude, sorry to hear this. I think that in your infatuation with him you tried attracting his attention too much, for his taste you might have taken your difficulty with certain exercises too seriously, and his comments too personally. Probably he experienced you as being too needy, and he must have felt that you got too close to him when you said that it wasn't "just a coach-student relationship", when he himself was not interested into anything more. That's why he distanced himself more and more from you, answered you so tersely, and wanted to talk through text instead of in-person, in order to keep his distance from you. All the while you desperately tried closing the gap, which only scared him away more. Don't forget, after LIEs establish first contact, ESIs are the ones who come hunt after us, not the other way around. We LIEs are just there to help them along, so when they make a clear effort to chase us, we propose what activity we could do and when it fits our agenda, and if they agree it's a date.

    Anyway, getting too infatuated with someone who isn't interested in us happens to all of us at some time, and possibly several times in life. It happens to the best of us, remember that. The key is to get back on your feet again, continue studying, going to work, meeting up with friends, and doing your hobbies. Especially time with friends and talking with them about it helps in getting over your love sickness. I wish you the best of luck and keep hanging in there, you'll start to feel better again eventually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicozeyo View Post
    So, I have news...

    First of all, thanks for your answers. I like the fact that some of you bring to my attention that ILI and ESI are two negativist. It makes sense on some levels.

    My ESI coach became in the last two month grumpy (since the incident in my initial post). Each time, I find him weird about extraverted thinking subject (which is logic because he's ESI and I'm ILI), more details :

    - I wanted to buy a training bike around christmas, so I sent him few picks and said "What do you think ?". He didn't have really an opinion and just said "Nicolas, I'm a coach, not a bike seller." My understanding is that he could have an opinion about sport equipment or anyway being more qualified than myself because he is a big jock. Ultimately, I found him very agressive. I know he wasn't really agressive but the wording is very strange to me. I just wanted an opinion and he showed signs of boredom. I didn't really take it because I knew he is ESi so I just minded to myself that he has a poor Te.

    - I finally buy this training bike and use it few weeks later. I wanted to make a "report" with raw data to him. Because, like a already said : he is the coach. So, I wrote a message with information about distance, speed, etc. He answered me "Hello, it would be nice already." Indeed, I didn't write "Hello" at the beginning of my message (for the first time in 6 months of coaching).
    So, I clearly thought that he was overeacting this time. Once again, I said to myself "He has a tiny Te, ignore it."

    (It is important to know that I didn't see him physically since the session that I described in my first post because he was busy with formations).

    - Then comes the last session in early january, I did the session and sent him that everything was okay. He just answered me "Good, same exercices next week". It was the first time that he didn't change anything in a session program. I adressed him this point and tell him that it was awkward to me to pay him for doing the exact same thing. He take one day to think about it and tell me that he didn't change his mind. I told to myself "It is okay, he takes time to think. Nevermind." So, I sent him "Okay, I'll do it even if you are insolent". If only I knew what will happened next...

    He was annoyed and said things like "I'm the coach, you are not. I have reflected on the session and I am keeping my commitments to you. Now you are denigrating my work." I was kinda surprised because we were always kinda playful to each other until this moment. I said him it was playful, he didn't understand and find my attitude rude (maybe "rude" is a bit too intense but it's the idea). I told him during this conversation that "the relation isn't just a coach-student relation", keep this point in mind, it's important.

    At this point, I was done. I was tanking his weak communication skills since five weeks. For example, he never told me anything about what I explained in my first post despite I asked him many times to tell me what he thought of the situation, he just said things like "when we will see physically"/"it's not important"/"I don't want to be misunderstood" which I found very confusing because I wanted to told him about this point physically but he wanted that I tell him by message, so I did. And when he finally read my explanation, he said "I'll tell you my answer when we will see each other next time." I was : "?!?"

    So, as I said, I was done. I sent back a message where I talked about all the things I just wrote in this post. I told him that I find him very defensive with me. That the communication is clearly unbalanced. I did great efforts to explaining with him and he didn't bother to explain me the single thing I ever asked an explanation for.

    He doesn't answer to this message. I finally sent a message today, after three weeks. And as I could have expected he said "Sorry, my message didn't go. I want to stop the coaching. Goodbye."

    ...

    Obviously. I asked him "Why ?" And he said "Because, it's not a relation student-coach". I said to him "What do you mean, what happened ?" And he said "I just explained." And I don't know if you have already talk to this kind of person when you want specifics or facts and the person just say "No, I had explain everything." So, I make circle, I tried to have an explanation. They never came.

    I don't want to be offensive because I like him but I had the impression to talk to a robot with pre-recorded sentence. He was uncapable to elaborate. He just reapeted himself again and again. Even now, my last message remains without answer. He dares answer "nothing bad" when I asked "What I did which was bad ?"

    I'm sorry if this post is confusing. I can't believe that my coach that I trusted during 6 months with whom I was playful just dropped me like that without any explanation because I dare say "the relation isn't just student-coach" which was just a way (maybe clumsy) to point the fact that I like him, that's all.

    I supposed this story will be a good lesson about trust and people I don't really know even if they seems nice.

    I admit it, I'm sad. It's such a waste for nothing.
    Thanks for writing the follow up. It's an excellent illustration of how ILI ESI's relation deteriorates. By the way I think it's a good decision to stop seeing each other for a while, because activity relation needs that breathing room. Doesn't have to be permanent though.

    I agree with @Armitage that ESI, with their base Fi, tend to be the one deciding/leading the closeness of relations. ILI's attempt at closing/furthering emotional distances will seem meek or confusing to ESI. They will think you are playing emotional games with them (even though I understand at each moment you are entirely sincere, the summary actions/end result will look contradictory to Fi judgers).

    Also not helping is that you are hitting his Te constantly, making him self-conscious about it. His Ne PoLR will suspect all kinds of things about why you are doing this, mostly negative

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    Yes, it is terrifying to see at what point socionics predict some interactions between ILI-ESI.

    I guess I need a SEE coach now if even ESI cannot be proper coach for ILI.

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    Psychology BSc and statistics MSc Armitage's Avatar
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    Rereading it, I think that at the same time he might have felt disrespected by you not accepting his Te-expertise as your coach, even though he worked hard to get to this position. So you didn't do anything bad, as in malicious, but by being too needy, disrespecting his expertise, and continuing to question his decisions, you were more trouble to him than you were worth.

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    The thing that trigger me the most is when I was confronted to his weak functiion, I was kind like 'it's okay, we all have our weak points."

    On the counterpart, when he had to face my Se or my Fi he was like "Urgh, no. Just leave him alone and doesn't respond to him." And finally "Stop the relationship and don't explain yourself. After all, it's better to don't give any explanations after 6 months of coaching."


    ...


    The other thing that is confusing is that I didn't want to "promote" him as a friend or anything like this. I just find him cool and interesting. He seems overprotective about Ni (which makes sens) as if each little action or word is carrying a special meaning or an secret intention. For exemple, one time I buy like few dozens of bookmark with write on it things like "Courage never dies." I gave him one because it's the kind of things that SEE or ESI like, being an hero and save the world and blablabla. This "gift" (I mean, one bookmark is worth nothing) wasn't special in anyway. I just thought that he would like it and I had dozens of those things ! I hope that he didn't thought things like "Woaw, Nicolas offered me a bookmark. He wants to sleep with me."

    Like I said to him in one of my last message. I never told him things about my personal life or invite him to a party or I don't know what kind of things ESI thinks are intimate action.
    Last edited by Nicozeyo; 02-03-2022 at 09:22 PM. Reason: Grammar

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    Psychology BSc and statistics MSc Armitage's Avatar
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    By the way, are you sure he's an ESI, because him being provoked by your amicality sound more like how Beta STs react to feelings as if stung by a bee. Generally ESIs and SEEs are more caring towards those who they take under their wing, but then again he might have felt you questioned his expertise as a trainer and also acted unprofessionally compared to his other business clients. But then again, if he is an ESI, I would expect an ESI to appreciate someone being kind to them and a Ti being put off by acting to touchy-feely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    By the way, are you sure he's an ESI, because him being provoked by your amicality sound more like how Beta STs react to feelings as if stung by a bee. Generally ESIs and SEEs are more caring towards those who they take under their wing, but then again he might have felt you questioned his expertise as a trainer and also acted unprofessionally compared to his other business clients. But then again, if he is an ESI, I would expect an ESI to appreciate someone being kind to them and a Ti being put off by acting to touchy-feely.
    One day, he told me about him being ESI or SEI because his wife make him took a test.

    Honestly, the things that convince me that he is ESI over LSI is that he has many behavior that I could expect from an inferior Te, or to be more socionics like, a suggestive Te. Always laughing over my dark formulation and never clear when he talks. I have many LSI around me and they don't give me the vibe that my coach gave me. It's different. It's not a very solid argument nevertheless I think ESI is the more pragmatic typing.

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    Psychology BSc and statistics MSc Armitage's Avatar
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    A SEI fitness trainer? Yeah, ESI is way more likely then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicozeyo View Post
    Hello,

    I asked this question on discord but I wanted to write it down on the forum too. Maybe I will have new opinions and thoughts on it.

    I have a fitness trainer (an ESI) with whom I do one session a week. For the first time in several months I found his attitude unpleasant. He insisted that I do a balance exercise with my eyes closed which I couldn't do (really, I tried many times). He wanted to continue it despite my remarks ("I'm going to fall") so I told him I wanted to stop.

    He (in his own way) tried to talk me out of it by provoking me (e.g., by saying "are you sure you want to stop on a failure ?") I didn't say another word to him for the whole hour of the session and I think the experience shook me emotionally. I don't know how to handle the situation because I have the impression that for him it is normal to take risks. However, I told him several times that I don't do fitness for performance but for health. As an ILI, my body and sport are not really confort zones so it's nice to have an ESI to help me but when trust turn into this kind of situation I feel bad and betrayed, I hope that doesn't sound to dramatic but it's true.

    What stood out to me the most was that he seemed to take it lightly and that pissed me off. He asked me at the end of the session if I wanted to say anything to him to which I replied that I preferred to wait to calm down (He understood that but seems to take it like nothing). And now, even after few days, I feel like I haven't calmed down yet. I'm torned because I really like him but I don't really understand.

    I always perceveid the relation like a trust confort zone. He seems to understand everything until this moment. ESI are generally sensitive and clever about other people discomfort and embarrassment. But this day, for the first time I feel crushed and misunderstood. I told him yesterday that I will not see him this week because I'm incomfortable for now, he answered "Yes, no problem". His anwser is not mean of course but it gave me the impression that he don't really care.

    What do you think ?

    You told him to tone it down and he didn't listen, if he's not interested in tailoring a workout to your fitness goals I think it's time to find a trainer that will. I think if this is a friend of yours make sure you are heard, if he won't hear you out you should go.
    Bound upon me, rush upon me, I will overcome you by enduring your onset: whatever strikes against that which is firm and unconquerable merely injures itself by its own violence. Wherefore, seek some soft and yielding object to pierce with your darts.

    -Seneca

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    The SEE is right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicozeyo View Post
    Hello,

    I asked this question on discord but I wanted to write it down on the forum too. Maybe I will have new opinions and thoughts on it.

    I have a fitness trainer (an ESI) with whom I do one session a week. For the first time in several months I found his attitude unpleasant. He insisted that I do a balance exercise with my eyes closed which I couldn't do (really, I tried many times). He wanted to continue it despite my remarks ("I'm going to fall") so I told him I wanted to stop.

    He (in his own way) tried to talk me out of it by provoking me (e.g., by saying "are you sure you want to stop on a failure ?") I didn't say another word to him for the whole hour of the session and I think the experience shook me emotionally. I don't know how to handle the situation because I have the impression that for him it is normal to take risks. However, I told him several times that I don't do fitness for performance but for health. As an ILI, my body and sport are not really confort zones so it's nice to have an ESI to help me but when trust turn into this kind of situation I feel bad and betrayed, I hope that doesn't sound to dramatic but it's true.

    What stood out to me the most was that he seemed to take it lightly and that pissed me off. He asked me at the end of the session if I wanted to say anything to him to which I replied that I preferred to wait to calm down (He understood that but seems to take it like nothing). And now, even after few days, I feel like I haven't calmed down yet. I'm torned because I really like him but I don't really understand.

    I always perceveid the relation like a trust confort zone. He seems to understand everything until this moment. ESI are generally sensitive and clever about other people discomfort and embarrassment. But this day, for the first time I feel crushed and misunderstood. I told him yesterday that I will not see him this week because I'm incomfortable for now, he answered "Yes, no problem". His anwser is not mean of course but it gave me the impression that he don't really care.

    What do you think ?
    You have a relatively comfortable and compatible relationship as far as functions go. But then it turns out that he is a real person with all kinds of flaws. This is a common discovery.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    You have a relatively comfortable and compatible relationship as far as functions go. But then it turns out that he is a real person with all kinds of flaws. This is a common discovery.
    In intertype relations, activity relation is not that "comfortable". It's predicted to have difficulties when working together.

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vis View Post
    In intertype relations, activity relation is not that "comfortable". It's predicted to have difficulties when working together.

    It's relatively comfortable, and many friendships happen in this relationship. But I just wanted to point out the difference between natural functional compatibility and the real person who might have all kinds of flaws. It happens in duality also, when the partner seems to be a match made in heaven at first, but then reality hits you after awhile and things get more nuanced.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    It's relatively comfortable, and many friendships happen in this relationship. But I just wanted to point out the difference between natural functional compatibility and the real person who might have all kinds of flaws. It happens in duality also, when the partner seems to be a match made in heaven at first, but then reality hits you after awhile and things get more nuanced.
    I'm looking at socion expert's writings from different quadras and some are much more realistic about relation dynamics. LII/ILEs tend to glide over Se realities because that's their PoLR/role (Gulenko's description's more useful than others but he has bias too). Regarding duals, I think personal development/maturity is an important factor in matching that is often overlooked.

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    Hmm.
    It ultimately does sound like a poor fit for a coach.

    You said similar things to what my ILI former friend complained about, particularly the defensiveness and your reactions to being pushed. I feel like I'm missing some relevant details, though. Because of that, I can only share ways I personally relate based on my own interactions with an ILI, and my own thoughts about what you shared here. I'm not comfortable with surmising about your situation between you two without more information to draw from. So, please don't mistake this for making it about me. What I say may not fit for your situation. I just am trying to give the only small scraps I can offer.

    The first thing I notice is your comments about poor communication. While I do see your side in this explanation, I was actually thinking that *your* communication was lacking before I even read that part about you thinking *his* was. Sometimes, both sides will make the same complaint about each other, with both being valid.

    How you could have been clearer, for example, with the bike part...if I had received the "what do you think?" with a picture of a bike, I'd have been thinking to myself, like..."it's...a bike, what am I supposed to think or say to this???" It might have made me feel a bit annoyed or impatient, which...would be some of my own weaknesses I definitely face in myself often. You did not communicate your intentions behind sharing. You left your actions to have unspoken expectations.

    I noticed my old ILI friend always was so inside of his own visual thinking that he would forget to see things from an outside perspective to ensure that his message comes across clearly. It's like he was caught up in his own imagination too much to perceive his words however the other person, who is not with access to his imagination, will see them. Ive had this same issue before, since I am a visual thinker myself, but for him it was on an entirely different level because his social skills were less mature in some ways.

    You should have asked whether there was anything you should be looking for in a bike that he would recommend for you. If you had, his response would most likely have been different, as it comes off as being relevant and on topic. I want to point out how he reminded you of his job, role, in a way that expressed, "This isnt related to me" when he said he is not a bike salesman. So, it sounds like his perspective was the same as mine would've been. This...for me, as Ne PoLR...is somewhat key, mind you. I sort of need others to explain those connections between things to me sometimes. I don't see how X relates to Y at all, and when things seem left field/off topic, I get annoyed and have to hold myself back from being impatient at a certain point. Lol. It may be *me* failing to see the connection, but I still sometimes do interpret it as someone else's incompetence, since to me it seems totally disparate or irrelevant and leaves me going "????????!!!" It comes across to me as "weird logic." That is one thing typology has helped me understand better and grow beyond.

    I have more to say, but since I am on mobile, I will save my progress by posting what I have thus far.
    Last edited by Lady Lunacy; 02-05-2022 at 02:17 AM.
    Showing only bits and pieces
    'Till the light betrays you and your empty elocution
    Searching your eyes for a hint or a trace of humility
    Searching your eyes for the saint is an act of futility

    You're deceived by inner demons that were fed by your own hand
    Shaded veils hide your perception, shooting nails into the heart
    Still deceived by inner demons that were fed by your own hand
    Shaded veils hide your perception, shooting nails into your head

    The blood that runs within my veins
    Keeps me from ever ending up the same
    The fire that's pushing me on and on and on
    To me it's everything and it makes me fucking strong

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vis View Post
    I'm looking at socion expert's writings from different quadras and some are much more realistic about relation dynamics. LII/ILEs tend to glide over Se realities because that's their PoLR/role (Gulenko's description's more useful than others but he has bias too). Regarding duals, I think personal development/maturity is an important factor in matching that is often overlooked.
    There are no perfect ITRs, but same quadra comes closest. Like, if not quadra are the best, then what ITRs are?

    Maturity is of course always a factor, but Socionics doesn't deal with general psychology.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    [I]f the ESI instructor had asked me (an LIE) if I wanted to stop on a failure
    I would have replied: "I'm not stopping, nor am I failing. See?" and would try again, until I succeed. I believe it to be ESI's way of mobilizing LIE's Se.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Lunacik View Post
    The first thing I notice is your comments about poor communication. While I do see your side in this explanation, I was actually thinking that *your* communication was lacking before I even read that part about you thinking *his* was. Sometimes, both sides will make the same complaint about each other, with both being valid.

    How you could have been clearer, for example, with the bike part...if I had received the "what do you think?" with a picture of a bike, I'd have been thinking to myself, like..."it's...a bike, what am I supposed to think or say to this???" It might have made me feel a bit annoyed or impatient, which...would be some of my own weaknesses I definitely face in myself often. You did not communicate your intentions behind sharing. You left your actions to have unspoken expectations.

    I noticed my old ILI friend always was so inside of his own visual thinking that he would forget to see things from an outside perspective to ensure that his message comes across clearly. It's like he was caught up in his own imagination too much to perceive his words however the other person, who is not with access to his imagination, will see them. Ive had this same issue before, since I am a visual thinker myself, but for him it was on an entirely different level because his social skills were less mature in some ways.
    I think speaking of an ESI point of view that's a very good point. Indeed, I didn't said anything particular besides "What do you think ?" , I didn't give specifics. I could argue that many people (not ESI I guess) would react in a way that I wanted at this moment : tell me things more or less interesting about the training bike topic. But, I perfectly understand what you adressed here and it is true. I left some things unspoken. He reacted just as you described with things like "a bike is a bike".

    It is interesting because I can remember events where he was not clear himself. Our sessions were supposed to last one hour. In general, I needed more to complete one like one hour and twenty minutes. So, he stayed longer because he wanted and it's in his "values" to stay during the all session even if it's not include in the price which is aligned on one hour.
    One day, during the middle of a session, he said "I have a session after yours, we will run out of time. I could may be late." What is that supposed to mean ? Here we go, he could have meant that he wanted me to speed up, he could have meant that he was just complaining without particular expectations, he could have meant that he was afraid of being late. I don't know, because he left the motivation of his intervention unspoken. So, as a nice and arranging ILI, I said "So, tell me the session program and leave, I'll do the rest by myself." He answered "No, no, I will stay until the end." To which I answered "You'll be late for the next session " And, suspense what happens next... Just nothing he repeated "No, no, don't worry, I'll stay until the end." with a curious mood.
    What was that ? I think it's clearly more whimsical than my "What do you think about that training bike ?"

    About the communication topic in general. It's not necessarly a question of tell things with clear intention because if things aren't clear, we can just ask "what do you mean ? / what do you want ?" and that's it. It's more about wanted to understand things and discuss about it, let the other know what's going on.

    My coach just choose many times to do not tell things at all. No communication is not the best way to avoid bad communication (seems clear to me that he was afraid to tell things in a wrong way, he said it himself). I spare him many things about his Te because as an ILI, I think it's more appropriate to not always crush people (especially, low-Te) with basic communication "skills".

    Overall, I want to point the fact that I agree with you. ESI has special needs on Te.

    EDIT : I realize it's not really your point but I think we will agree about that.
    Last edited by Nicozeyo; 02-06-2022 at 12:03 PM. Reason: EDIT

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    As for agreeing on that, tbh Im pretty blind to whatever needs I have for Te. I grew up with a "drill seargant" kind of dad who was very Te, and pushed me in that department...so idk. Maybe Ive just already had my Te muscles worked out by a (definitely) 4D Te person.

    I see more Ne PoLR stuff than Te issues in this, though. I could be wrong.

    As for the part he communicated, to me that sounds like he was just pressured and hoping you could try to hurry as much as possible that day, but was trying to avoid pressuring you too much or rushing his client, which would have been a bit messed up and unprofessional. Lol. To me that is actually clear. It may have been poor planning on his part though, not sure.
    Showing only bits and pieces
    'Till the light betrays you and your empty elocution
    Searching your eyes for a hint or a trace of humility
    Searching your eyes for the saint is an act of futility

    You're deceived by inner demons that were fed by your own hand
    Shaded veils hide your perception, shooting nails into the heart
    Still deceived by inner demons that were fed by your own hand
    Shaded veils hide your perception, shooting nails into your head

    The blood that runs within my veins
    Keeps me from ever ending up the same
    The fire that's pushing me on and on and on
    To me it's everything and it makes me fucking strong

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    Yes. I told everything about this situation to an EII friend and he understands what I meant with the bike topic. Which indeed implies that Ne was the point because EII has the same Te as ESI.

    Maybe I put the accent on Te because in the end it's what hurt me the most. He goes silent and to me it's typical of low-Te type. When I had disagreements with ILI or LIE for example, relations ended in a long "agressive" discussion (Fi problem) and not with a silence. At least, things are clear this way...
    Last edited by Nicozeyo; 02-06-2022 at 02:17 PM. Reason: Grammar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicozeyo View Post
    Yes. I told everything about this situation to an EII friend and he understands what I meant with the bike topic. Which indeed implies that Ne was the point because EII has the same Te as ESI.

    Maybe I put the accent on Te because in the end it's what hurt me the most. He goes silent and to me it's typical of low-Te type. When I had disagreements with ILI or LIE for example, relations ended in a long "agressive" discussion (Fi problem) and not with a silence. At least, things are clear this way...
    Actually, what (birth) sexes are these involving? I ask because I've always noticed this was typically a male/female difference. It seems like us women need closure more, while guys are somehow able to just walk away in silence. I haaaaaate that whole silence thing. I'm more like you, I like...HAVE to get things off my chest/out of my system, or else I cannot move on easily whatsoever.

    Alternatively, maybe it was just their detachment?

    My LIE and I are both more confrontational, though, which I absolutely love.
    Showing only bits and pieces
    'Till the light betrays you and your empty elocution
    Searching your eyes for a hint or a trace of humility
    Searching your eyes for the saint is an act of futility

    You're deceived by inner demons that were fed by your own hand
    Shaded veils hide your perception, shooting nails into the heart
    Still deceived by inner demons that were fed by your own hand
    Shaded veils hide your perception, shooting nails into your head

    The blood that runs within my veins
    Keeps me from ever ending up the same
    The fire that's pushing me on and on and on
    To me it's everything and it makes me fucking strong

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    It's easier for NT to shout Te/Ti at each other's face... They talk the same language... until their F butthurt.

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    Another point I had not written about yet, but wanted to touch on, was that...I noticed, also, you weren't all that assertive with this person. I know you'll probably see it as though you were, since you voiced wanting to stop and said you were going to fall. As @Armitage said, though, that really seems like ESI's Se trying to push you. Either of the responses @Adam Strange or @Armitage said would've been perfect to me. In Adam's I'd have known, "OK, stop pushing and back off," no problem. Armitage's response was more like what I'd have been going for if I was saying something like that ("do you want to stop at failure?").

    My ILI friend always had somewhat varying responses to my Se, and it was very confusing to me. It's like...he would go along with things, seem okay, seem genuinely appreciative and more motivated by it, but then in the end, I found out he wasn't expressing how he felt like I was being too demanding and pushy in some things as well. My reaction to this is just..."OK? Why didn't you simply say so?" Lol. That was what my reaction to your description here would've been, also. I actually PREFER for others to speak up and just voice their needs, and - you're not included in this, but I tend to lose respect for those who don't simply speak up in the way Armitage / Adam both did. You're not included in that because you haven't done that with me personally, lol I'm just someone providing some feedback. I tend to see it as weak, spineless, and too passive to be compatible with me. Hope that doesn't seem mean, I'm just being honest...which I think is more constructive than accommodating feelings. (Improvement VS emotional comfort...I'm one that goes for improvement...that's just how my values are.)

    EDIT:
    That last line came out wrong...what I meant is that a lot of people do see it that way. I meant that...they may be seeming pushy to you, but a lot of times they actually are expecting you to speak up and are perfectly fine with you doing so...so don't be afraid to start asserting yourself more. (Eesh, it came out so cringy at first, sounded like I was saying to improve by conforming to my personal values...I'm not, I'm just saying this is a good life skill to have for dealing with others...)
    Showing only bits and pieces
    'Till the light betrays you and your empty elocution
    Searching your eyes for a hint or a trace of humility
    Searching your eyes for the saint is an act of futility

    You're deceived by inner demons that were fed by your own hand
    Shaded veils hide your perception, shooting nails into the heart
    Still deceived by inner demons that were fed by your own hand
    Shaded veils hide your perception, shooting nails into your head

    The blood that runs within my veins
    Keeps me from ever ending up the same
    The fire that's pushing me on and on and on
    To me it's everything and it makes me fucking strong

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    ILI will feel more comfortable with EII, because EII's Se Polr don't challenge ILI's Se suggestive so you can stay in the safe zone. But ultimately it's a fake comfort because you don't get Se response from EIIs when you need it, and they don't understand your disregard for Ne (ILI's Ne ignoring means high information but low action/devaluing in Ne). They want to help you grow in Ne directions which is misaligned for ILI's true path.

    ESI's Ne Polr is challenging because ILI cannot explain things away to get out of doing Se tasks (IEE and ILI are both good at explain things so they can get out of doing what they are supposed to do)

    I think ESI can help ILI grow Se in two ways:
    - you might already be subconsciously aware that you should do this, but consciously you are making excuses not doing it. ESI will push you no matter what you say
    - If you know you shouldn't do this, you can practice Se by confronting ESI and assert your will

    Anyways it's not pleasant but like all good medicines...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Lunacik View Post
    That last line came out wrong...what I meant is that a lot of people do see it that way. I meant that...they may be seeming pushy to you, but a lot of times they actually are expecting you to speak up and are perfectly fine with you doing so...so don't be afraid to start asserting yourself more. (Eesh, it came out so cringy at first, sounded like I was saying to improve by conforming to my personal values...I'm not, I'm just saying this is a good life skill to have for dealing with others...)
    Obvious being unable speak up to yourself is a huge weakness. I use to be like that, let people push me to my limit, and then I blow up (not in emotional sense like shouting, but more about I decide planning to destroy those people or kick them out of my life once and for all). Really not good

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    I didn't like pushing my ILI friend, he needed too much of it for me. It would've been exhausting to give him it as often as he needed it. It was always like...OK, I gave you the push...you're going a little, yay...wait, why did you stop? Why aren't you still going? "An object in motion stays in motion" yeah, not true with this one. Lol. It was getting frustrating and affecting my views of him, though. I was starting to give up on bothering with it, and I started liking/respecting him less. Seemed too much like babysitting.

    My LIE, in contrast, lol...would get inspired, fired up, and then get really productive and knock shit out when even just reading Se stuff in my journal/blog. He's like THANKS! *WHOOSH* and I'm like "O...k...you're welcome????? LOL"

    At the same time, I needed a lot of things explained, partly for lack of seeing connections. This ILI can't stand explaining things, but I am someone who is not only crappy with N connections, but also very unassuming about people (giving chances for the individual to shine through instead of lumping them in with a group of "what I've always seen before from everyone else"). I think that's a very Fi/Gamma thing, but also just my personal value since I'm so commonly misunderstood due to people doing that to me. Both of those dynamics make me need more explanations than most people, though...therefore, it was a major incompatibility.
    Showing only bits and pieces
    'Till the light betrays you and your empty elocution
    Searching your eyes for a hint or a trace of humility
    Searching your eyes for the saint is an act of futility

    You're deceived by inner demons that were fed by your own hand
    Shaded veils hide your perception, shooting nails into the heart
    Still deceived by inner demons that were fed by your own hand
    Shaded veils hide your perception, shooting nails into your head

    The blood that runs within my veins
    Keeps me from ever ending up the same
    The fire that's pushing me on and on and on
    To me it's everything and it makes me fucking strong

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarnished View Post
    Obvious being unable speak up to yourself is a huge weakness. I use to be like that, let people push me to my limit, and then I blow up (not in emotional sense like shouting, but more about I decide planning to destroy those people or kick them out of my life once and for all). Really not good
    Yes, that is exactly how it was.

    However, I've also come to understand that sometimes people do feel like they're speaking up, but don't realize they aren't...so it isn't just spinelessness. Sometimes it's just cluelessness about how that stuff works.
    Showing only bits and pieces
    'Till the light betrays you and your empty elocution
    Searching your eyes for a hint or a trace of humility
    Searching your eyes for the saint is an act of futility

    You're deceived by inner demons that were fed by your own hand
    Shaded veils hide your perception, shooting nails into the heart
    Still deceived by inner demons that were fed by your own hand
    Shaded veils hide your perception, shooting nails into your head

    The blood that runs within my veins
    Keeps me from ever ending up the same
    The fire that's pushing me on and on and on
    To me it's everything and it makes me fucking strong

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    Psychology BSc and statistics MSc Armitage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Lunacik View Post
    I haaaaaate that whole silence thing. I'm more like you, I like...HAVE to get things off my chest/out of my system, or else I cannot move on easily whatsoever.
    I need the same, I don't think that the need for closure actually depends on gender.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage View Post
    I need the same, I don't think that the need for closure actually depends on gender.
    It may not, but I always wondered whether it pertained to how women are less discouraged from expressing themselves. Maybe my observations in which it's been gender related are purely coincidental or something, that's also possible. Just looking for some sort of common denominator...if there even is one. Trying to understand what this could be linked to personality pattern wise or whatever.
    Showing only bits and pieces
    'Till the light betrays you and your empty elocution
    Searching your eyes for a hint or a trace of humility
    Searching your eyes for the saint is an act of futility

    You're deceived by inner demons that were fed by your own hand
    Shaded veils hide your perception, shooting nails into the heart
    Still deceived by inner demons that were fed by your own hand
    Shaded veils hide your perception, shooting nails into your head

    The blood that runs within my veins
    Keeps me from ever ending up the same
    The fire that's pushing me on and on and on
    To me it's everything and it makes me fucking strong

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Lunacik View Post
    Another point I had not written about yet, but wanted to touch on, was that...I noticed, also, you weren't all that assertive with this person. I know you'll probably see it as though you were, since you voiced wanting to stop and said you were going to fall. As @Armitage said, though, that really seems like ESI's Se trying to push you. Either of the responses @Adam Strange or @Armitage said would've been perfect to me. In Adam's I'd have known, "OK, stop pushing and back off," no problem. Armitage's response was more like what I'd have been going for if I was saying something like that ("do you want to stop at failure?").

    My ILI friend always had somewhat varying responses to my Se, and it was very confusing to me. It's like...he would go along with things, seem okay, seem genuinely appreciative and more motivated by it, but then in the end, I found out he wasn't expressing how he felt like I was being too demanding and pushy in some things as well. My reaction to this is just..."OK? Why didn't you simply say so?" Lol. That was what my reaction to your description here would've been, also. I actually PREFER for others to speak up and just voice their needs, and - you're not included in this, but I tend to lose respect for those who don't simply speak up in the way Armitage / Adam both did. You're not included in that because you haven't done that with me personally, lol I'm just someone providing some feedback. I tend to see it as weak, spineless, and too passive to be compatible with me. Hope that doesn't seem mean, I'm just being honest...which I think is more constructive than accommodating feelings. (Improvement VS emotional comfort...I'm one that goes for improvement...that's just how my values are.)

    EDIT:
    That last line came out wrong...what I meant is that a lot of people do see it that way. I meant that...they may be seeming pushy to you, but a lot of times they actually are expecting you to speak up and are perfectly fine with you doing so...so don't be afraid to start asserting yourself more. (Eesh, it came out so cringy at first, sounded like I was saying to improve by conforming to my personal values...I'm not, I'm just saying this is a good life skill to have for dealing with others...)
    To sum all of our advice to you up from my perspective, Nicozeyo, remember this: Feel free to speak your mind and be who you are, because those who matter don't mind, and those who mind don't matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Lunacik View Post
    Actually, what (birth) sexes are these involving? I ask because I've always noticed this was typically a male/female difference. It seems like us women need closure more, while guys are somehow able to just walk away in silence. I haaaaaate that whole silence thing. I'm more like you, I like...HAVE to get things off my chest/out of my system, or else I cannot move on easily whatsoever.
    Two men.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Lunacik View Post
    Another point I had not written about yet, but wanted to touch on, was that...I noticed, also, you weren't all that assertive with this person. I know you'll probably see it as though you were, since you voiced wanting to stop and said you were going to fall. As @Armitage said, though, that really seems like ESI's Se trying to push you. Either of the responses @Adam Strange or @Armitage said would've been perfect to me. In Adam's I'd have known, "OK, stop pushing and back off," no problem. Armitage's response was more like what I'd have been going for if I was saying something like that ("do you want to stop at failure?").

    My ILI friend always had somewhat varying responses to my Se, and it was very confusing to me. It's like...he would go along with things, seem okay, seem genuinely appreciative and more motivated by it, but then in the end, I found out he wasn't expressing how he felt like I was being too demanding and pushy in some things as well. My reaction to this is just..."OK? Why didn't you simply say so?" Lol. That was what my reaction to your description here would've been, also. I actually PREFER for others to speak up and just voice their needs, and - you're not included in this, but I tend to lose respect for those who don't simply speak up in the way Armitage / Adam both did. You're not included in that because you haven't done that with me personally, lol I'm just someone providing some feedback. I tend to see it as weak, spineless, and too passive to be compatible with me. Hope that doesn't seem mean, I'm just being honest...which I think is more constructive than accommodating feelings. (Improvement VS emotional comfort...I'm one that goes for improvement...that's just how my values are.)

    EDIT:
    That last line came out wrong...what I meant is that a lot of people do see it that way. I meant that...they may be seeming pushy to you, but a lot of times they actually are expecting you to speak up and are perfectly fine with you doing so...so don't be afraid to start asserting yourself more. (Eesh, it came out so cringy at first, sounded like I was saying to improve by conforming to my personal values...I'm not, I'm just saying this is a good life skill to have for dealing with others...)
    My answer could be seen like too "light" but it is not that simple, I think it's important to consider many things : the first thing is that I have a suggestive Se, so I want to be guided about those exercices, I brought this now because I spare you some details in the first post. I asked him to help me to maintain my balance because you know, I could not. He told me something like "visualize the area around you". I was like "Huh ? What is this crap ?" I told him that this makes no sense to me and offers me nothing more that this cryptic useless sentence once again. I wanted concrete advices on how maintain my balance, not a magic formula. So, keep in mind that he failed me (I'm not afraid to adress this point) to give me good advices. Maybe it makes sense to people with a higher Se or Si but for me "visualize the space around you" don't help me to move my leg forward and backward with closed eyes.

    So my trust started to fade at this moment because I asked him for concrete help and from my point of view, he just lazily answered me. He dares told me "I can do it while I don't practice this kind of exercice often."
    I beg your pardon ? I don't care if you can do it or not, if you practice this exercice or not because I already said that I can't do it and it's not about you, it's about me. I know it wasn't mean but the comparison is very clumsy. To be honest, I hope that he can do the exercices that he asks to his students... The contrary would seems a bit odd.

    Just as I said earlier, I'm a suggestive Se. I want to be guided but I want to feel that the "guide" is always protecting me. I think it's a common thing about all suggestive function. It is more easy for ESI to speak their mind when they are asked good questions or it is more easy for LIE to love and express their emotions when they feel that people aren't judging them and don't make fun of them.
    So. I didn't feel protected. When he told me "Do you want to stop on a failure ?". My immediate interpreration is "I told him that I cannot do the exercice. I told him to give me solutions that he failed to give. He told me that it's not that hard because he can do it. And, finally, he try to push me with this ?"

    So, you have to understand that at this very moment. He is not my coach anymore, he is an ennemy, a betrayer, he is not helping me, he is not protecting me. I hesitated to tell him to leave my home immediatly. I just choose to let my anger vanish with time. So I prefered to tell noting until the session's end where I told him that I needed to calm down and I would message him later. To be honest, I think he tried to "makes things right" by always being accommodating during the session (this happens in the first fifteen minutes) but being nice after this is almost pointless even if a part of me acknowledged.

    He was supposed to be a professional not some kind of witchcraft beginner. He had to see what happens, he had to give proper advices or just say "let's try this exercice next week" which I told him. I told him "it's the first time, we can just retry next week". He was often greedy with his demands, this time didn't go as well as the others.

    I think that it's not okay to push people on their suggestive function.
    And I think it's normal if our reactions aren't perfect. It's not easy to handle those kind of pressure on a weak point. In retrospect, to be honest I find my reactions were very fair.

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    Hmmm it's good to push suggestive functions if you want to be more independent (thinking of Colin Powell as ILI being a top soldier of the entire nation, imagine how much he pushed his Se, and I know some SLI with exceptionally well developed Ne suggestive becoming a country's most popular TV show host). But I agree you need to be somewhat mentally prepared for it.

    Visualization exercises can be either Ni or Si. When it involves feeling bodily sensations it's closer to Si, which I think is very beneficial to ILI because, once you have a good understanding of Si, you will feel way more comfortable with Se. And not afraid of exploring Se will make your Ni perceptions much more accurate.

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    Sigh, the guy seems to lack some self-awareness, possibly of the external self-awareness variety. I'm sorry for what happened. I think you acted entirely reasonably...

    what you said about how he would read into you giving him a bookmark, yeah I can relate to that with reading into gifts an ILI may give me.

    I honestly hadn't linked Te to communication skills in such a direct way before... or blamed low Te for whatever my deficits in communication skills are -- such as the "no communication" strategy, which, as you wisely point out, is not the best way to avoid bad communication.

    Happened to revisit Gulenko's communication styles on wikisocion tonight -- "cold-blooded" being the type that ILI practices, and "authentic sincere", of ESI. It seems that preferring to practice authentic sincerity in communication could very well lead me to being silent, which is itself a form of communication, even if frequently not applied effectually, by us...

    It's not related but I had a thought regarding ILI's suggestive Se, and what I gather is how ILI may comment on qualities of objects in their environment, Se? These remarks tend to catch me by surprise a little, I guess it's a strong perceiving/judging difference. I don't base conversation on making connections between objects via my perception... I wonder how SEEs play off of these kinds of observations, it must be a cool dynamic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    ESIs are Negativists. They are going to say "Why are you failing?", which is exactly what their over-optimistic Duals need to hear.
    SEEs are Positivists. They are going to say "I'm sure you can do this. If not today, then later. Now I want you to work on that thing that you do so well."

    Now imagine a life spent with each of them. Lol.
    I doubt that SEE would say something so soft like that. Actually, they can trashtalk much harder than ESI, but the key is, they would likely make it like a joke, or taunt the ILI piss enough to fight back immediately, an then make the situation feel much ... lighter and easier to (blow) the emotions. ExFp have that abilitiy to pull the reaction out of IxTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by wonderwoman View Post
    Sigh, the guy seems to lack some self-awareness, possibly of the external self-awareness variety. I'm sorry for what happened. I think you acted entirely reasonably...

    what you said about how he would read into you giving him a bookmark, yeah I can relate to that with reading into gifts an ILI may give me.

    I honestly hadn't linked Te to communication skills in such a direct way before... or blamed low Te for whatever my deficits in communication skills are -- such as the "no communication" strategy, which, as you wisely point out, is not the best way to avoid bad communication.

    Happened to revisit Gulenko's communication styles on wikisocion tonight -- "cold-blooded" being the type that ILI practices, and "authentic sincere", of ESI. It seems that preferring to practice authentic sincerity in communication could very well lead me to being silent, which is itself a form of communication, even if frequently not applied effectually, by us...

    It's not related but I had a thought regarding ILI's suggestive Se, and what I gather is how ILI may comment on qualities of objects in their environment, Se? These remarks tend to catch me by surprise a little, I guess it's a strong perceiving/judging difference. I don't base conversation on making connections between objects via my perception... I wonder how SEEs play off of these kinds of observations, it must be a cool dynamic.
    For what it’s worth, @wonderwoman, your communication is extremely clear and understandable. Your writing style is that of an extremely competent writer. Direct, succinct, thoughtful and organized.

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