DEAD, I'm going to punch your fat head in...

[DEAD]

>because you typed them isn’t a good answer

its good enough for me, a Ti user, who only cares about things making sense to me.

2D Ti.

>it needs to be consistent and make sense

oh? To who, exactly? Please stop trying to force Te on me. It doesn’t have to make sense to anyone but myself. As I said, you clearly value Te.

This sounds Te PoLR. I can tell you're really annoyed by the Ti, lol.

>You can make up any bullshit you want and expect us to go along with it making sense. People are gonna ask questions, and expect you to answer them and make sense.

no ._. I’m not expecting anyone to get along with it. You put that expectation on yourself. If it doesn’t make sense to you, leave it.

Only things that I can make sense of make sense to me. But I still want objectivity.

>I can argue that you being LSI 7w8 is a contradiction in on itself because the main traits of enneagram 7 (according to the Enneagram Institute) do not match Ti in socionics as base function

please let’s not bring my type into this. I’m really not bothered. If it makes sense to me then I don’t care if it’s logically inconsistent to others.

I see you don't want to argue with me because I made a very good point.

>If Socionics is going to be more legit, it needs more universal definition, and by giving it more universal definition, Scienists can assess it and make a mainstream, more credible unit of assessment for measuring personality.

>Individual subjectivity of definitions will never give Socionics full credibility as a “science”; if people want that, fair enough but if they do, we’re all going to have to look at and redefine objectively what Socionics is.

This. This is it. No one who values Ti over Te would say this. Even EIEs have trouble with this, and they care a lot about appearing objective. You sound SEE, take it or leave it. I’m not going to continue this conversation because it’s not doing anything to my Ti, and tbh you sound pretty Ti PoLR[/QUOTE]

I don't think I am Ti PoLR, I'm not actulaly rejecting any logic of the system and diagreeing with your own personal logic, which again brings me back to the point that if you disgaree with someone, you're Ti PoLR. You've just framed me as Ti POLR because I'm not agreeing with your own personal logic, which is always changing, or framing it. Two or three posts ago you were pretty set on Beta ST yourself. You also VI'd an AI generated pic, lol.

I realy don't use Fi as a creative function (on how it's defined), and like you said, I use "too much Te", so I'm not settling on SEE because I know it doesn't make much sense at all, according to what I know about IMEs in Model A. I'll just go back to LxE, like I thought as a second choice on another thread. Or SLE, too bad.

[Sapphire]

>I can argue that you being LSI 7w8 is a contradiction in on itself because the main traits of enneagram 7 (according to the Enneagram Institute) do not match Ti in socionics as base function

please let’s not bring my type into this. I’m really not bothered. If it makes sense to me then I don’t care if it’s logically inconsistent to others.

Explain how it makes sense to you?

[Ibreen]

Explain how it makes sense to you?

Type descriptions are one thing and function descriptions are another. If you’re only going to go by type descriptions, you can really mistype people. Many of the terms can mean different things to different people. IEIs will see me as extroverted and fun. While a SEE will see me as rigid and stubborn.


then, taking motivation, which is the real essence of enneagram, rather than type descriptions, is also important. An ISFP 4 will look way different from an IEE 4. Or an SLE 8 and a ILI 8. Even though they have some things in common, going by appearances will cause mistyping.

mine is 7w8. 90% of my motivation for doing things is to avoid pain. Now I’m not going to break down how I deal with that on the Internet. So I hope I made my reasoning clear enough, as to how I got to my type. I’m not really looking for someone to retype me, unless the actually see a behavior that is contradictory to my typing on this forum. I’ll assess it then and see if it makes sense. If it doesn’t then I won’t accept it and move on.

[DEAD]

Type descriptions are one thing and function descriptions are another. If you’re only going to go by type descriptions, you can really mistype people. Many of the terms can mean different things to different people. IEIs will see me as extroverted and fun. While a SEE will see me as rigid and stubborn.

Alright, so type descriptions aren't a more reliable method than VI, and looking at people's features doesn't mistype them? Alright! You're trying way too hard to bend your logic to make something that isn't going to work, work. And your overall lack of explanations doesn't help in that matter either. You're just cherry-picking things on a surface level to appeal to yourself and are not showing a real understanding of the theory.

Also, how many IEI and SEE have you had to sample to confirm that? Are you basing these off experiences that work and fit into the system or are you assuming these things?

then, taking motivation, which is the real essence of enneagram, rather than type descriptions, is also important. An ISFP 4 will look way different from an IEE 4. Or an SLE 8 and a ILI 8. Even though they have some things in common, going by appearances will cause mistyping.

VI is literally going by appearances, so why are you criticizing a method that is 'going by appearances' and say that it will cause mistyping when that's literally what the system you currently use does?

mine is 7w8. 90% of my motivation for doing things is to avoid pain. Now I’m not going to break down how I deal with that on the Internet. So I hope I made my reasoning clear enough, as to how I got to my type. I’m not really looking for someone to retype me, unless the actually see a behavior that is contradictory to my typing on this forum. I’ll assess it then and see if it makes sense. If it doesn’t then I won’t accept it and move on.

No, it's not clear enough. You literally posted a generic sentence here. What is your process for avoiding pain? Is it linked to your Ti - Se? How, as an LSI does a 7, a contradicting type even work within the psyche logically? Are you sure you're not a mistyped 1?

You're not gonna break it down because you don't have a good argument for either. You don't really sit down and think about it. If you had good reasons, you wouldn't be gaslighting me or being so vague.

[Ibreen]

@DEAD I wasn’t talking to you please fuck off

[DEAD]

@DEAD I wasn’t talking to you please fuck off

It's my thread, and you started talking here. If you don't want tagged or called out anymore, then gtfo off my thread.

[Vis]

Other people cannot give you the "right Ti". It's introverted logic. It's your logic. Nobody else is you. You have to come up with your own Ti.

By (forcefully) demanding answers from others, you are actually using Se, as well as abusing your demonstrative Te in a bullying way (even though it's not your intention since you are Fi PoLR. Te without Fi guidance can be a brutal force that knows no stop).

Ti in SLE is more about tactical/strategy. Play a team sport, get a job in sales, etc. can be good ways to develop Ti. These can also help train your role function Ne by getting to know other people's intention and needs. Role function is a pain to train, but can be the saving grace when you've driven yourself to a dead end using valued functions alone.

Once again for any beta STs who's without a proper father figure, I recommend Jordan Peterson. Aside from supreme Fe, he also has deep Ni intuition. But be careful with extreme cult followers or political views.

[DEAD]

Other people cannot give you the "right Ti". It's introverted logic. It's your logic. Nobody else is you. You have to come up with your own Ti.

Yeah that’s true but it still needs to make sense regardless of who’s logic it is. You know? It needs to be consistent and follow along.

By (forcefully) demanding answers from others, you are actually using Se, as well as abusing your demonstrative Te in a bullying way (even though it's not your intention since you are Fi PoLR. Te without Fi guidance can be a brutal force that knows no stop).

Yeah I can be pretty forceful at times but I don’t see a problem with that, if it gets results and things done then it works.

Ti in SLE is more about tactical/strategy. Play a team sport, get a job in sales, etc. can be good ways to develop Ti. These can also help train your role function Ne by getting to know other people's intention and needs. Role function is a pain to train, but can be the saving grace when you've driven yourself to a dead end using valued functions alone.

Yeah even making music and figuring out how a music making system works. And figuring out how to play an instrument is good too. Video games, definitely sports and sales too.

Both my Fi and Ne are pretty shitty but I guess I do bring that in part down to age as well.

If you look at older SLE, they are a lot more mature and well rounded than younger ones. I chalk that up to developmental and maturity levels as well as life experience too.

Once again for any beta STs who's without a proper father figure, I recommend Jordan Peterson. Aside from supreme Fe, he also has deep Ni intuition. But be careful with extreme cult followers or political views.

I’m on the fence with Peterson. From what I’ve saw of him, I don’t think he’s complete bs but I do think that he’s still a bit bs. I don’t agree with him a lot of the time. And a lot of people argue over him being NT, and some LSI but that’s another topic for another time.

[EIE H]

No one is ever going to give you enough proof so it's a black hole. You say you're SLE so just stick with that. The more you try to convince people of something, the more they will doubt you because it comes off insecurity, validation seeking, and self-doubt, which lends itself to people not trusting your self-perceptions. This applies to most other things too.

[DEAD]

Lots of talking and random I-think-I-am's. Try really recording your day so that you'll have proof

Nah fuck that shit lol. I don't really care that much if I'm honest.

No one is ever going to give you enough proof so it's a black hole. You say you're SLE so just stick with that. The more you try to convince people of something, the more they will doubt you because it comes off insecurity, validation seeking, and self-doubt, which lends itself to people not trusting your self-perceptions. This applies to most other things too.

It's a catch 22, you say you're X, people want proof but when you give proof you're not that type. Whatever, I'll just be SLE then. This whole thing's stretched on long enough, and I can't be arsed with it anymore. One side says X, the other says Y and I say Z. Questionnaires can only do as much as they allow you to do as well. Same with videos. Same with photos. As far as I'm concerned, it's about how you process information first of all, and judging by that, I am verging on SLE > SEE. I think that I have enough data to judge that, based on what I know about the theory.

[DEAD]

You don't really wanna know the answer and this whole thread is just for attention - got it

It's too much effort to film a Vlog, lol. One day's not gonna tell the answer. If you want a more accurate answer, then you'd need to do that over a week and assess it for any consistences/inconsistencies in how you think. You'd need to dedicate to it, 'cause every day is gonna be diferent but how you cope with that week mentally is gonna be similar/the same despite the changing circumstances.

Even then, people will still disagree with your assessment. Yeah, Socionics is pretty subjective so it's up to you in the end, tbh. You can listen to people, and you can come to your own conclusions as well. Or you can just listen to the masses. At the end of the day, it's your type and you can have the final say on the matter. I think at this point, as long as I have solid reasoning for my type, then it shouldn't really matter. You can only give me so much, and I can only do so much.

Your answer is one answer, and mine is another. We may agree, we may disagree.

[DEAD]

Okay now you're saying a lot of things. Let's be clear here:
1. OF COURSE it's better to do it for a considerable amount of time, like maybe a week or a month.
2. It doesn't have to necessarily be a vlog, you can just make a journal
3. Who the fuck cares about people disagreeing
The important thing is for you to obtain objective proof that you (or other people) can work with.
Why do you need this? You need this because other people's observations of you is not enough for you. Why is that? Because you want to build a narrative for yourself and you won't believe them anyway. And so I throw you the responsibility - record your thoughts/actions and other relevant details that have ACTUALLY HAPPENED. Then use that information while you look into the IMEs and whatever descriptions you have. Now you cannot say "uh no I'm ___ so this description applies to me!" when there is ACTUAL PROOF that you aren't. That way you won't waste your time and no one would waste their time caring about you. New people would care and answer you but at the end of the day you are just wasting their time because you actually don't listen to them. You are acting. I mean sure, tell yourself you are SLE and tell everyone that it's all about the IMEs blah blah but some people have already told you what they think and repeating the question for the nth time won't necessarily give you a different answer.


I think you aren't SLE. There I just disagreed with you. And it doesn't even fucking matter. It's just fucking three letters - S L E, now what does it mean for you? What is its use? After you know the answer, so what? This message goes for everyone here. People have typed me several things and it didn't change who I am. I mean I could be some random type in Model A or Model G or whatever fucking model there would be in the future but they are just labels and really doesn't make me who I am. You shouldn't even think much about your type all the time, that's just mental retardation. I don't know what you're going to use this for but what I'm saying is there are a LOT of information that you can get in this world but it doesn't mean you have to pay attention to them even if they are 'right'.

I'm trying to be a cool and chill mod - this is the only reason why I'm not even closing this thread yet. But if I were a dictator, I totally would

I don't think about my type all of the time. I don't even think about Socionics most of the time, like I have better things to do. I'm just responding to all the replies. But yeah, objective proof is better than just talking about the types, but because Socionics is so subjective, what someone does has different interpretations by different people because no-one can agree lol. Unless you're a literal stereotype of showing X type/functions, then no-one is gonna agree 100% on someonee's type, but I suppose "objective proof" would limit the number of types. Again, until Socionics actually has defined definitions, no-one is totally gonna agree on things.

I don't care much about descriptions, tbh. Everyone is acting, socionics is acting at the end of the day. Everyone is X 'cause Y, Z and A. All the type descriptions are just roles anyway. No one fits them 100%, even the extremely good examples. You can think one thing and I can think another. No one really listens to anyone anyway, this is an internet forum.

Lmao, I was gonna close this thread, but I knew you were gonna respond anyway. I don't even know why this thread is still open tbh. Probably cause Sol replied and I wanted something to argue about, forgot how old it was. Alright, I'm closing it now. Can't be bothered with it anymore. You said your stuff, and I half agree with you on some points. Others not so much so let's just agree to disagree 'cause I'm getting fed up, and I'm just gonna say I am SLE or whatever. This is now getting a waste of time and nothing fruitfully logical or interesting is coming from it.

[DEAD]

nah

Te > Fe = Fe < Te mr Ti polr

Bye.

Btw, sorry for the Fi-PoLR post. Lol if you're going to get type feedback though, that's all I can offer.

Thanks for the actual feedback in DMs. I will respond soon.

[Fluffy Princess Unicorn]

Bye.



Thanks for the actual feedback in DMs. I will respond soon.

Hey, np.


Don't feed the trolls.

[DEAD]

Hey, np.


Don't feed the trolls.

Still replying to you, been busy lol.

[Fluffy Princess Unicorn]

Still replying to you, been busy lol.

No rush, take your time.

[Fluffy Princess Unicorn]

The stupid browser erased my response, ffs but I pretty much agree with everything you've said, especially in regards to the Fi PoLR. I'll probably try and reply again in a bit.

It’s the archaic system of the forums not being able to have a save message function implemented on them that annoys me the most. Functionality in the forums and the we’ve is alright and it’s easy to navigate aside from that, but again, this forum is 17 years old and not exactly adjusted to current needs.

Always save a backup in Word. Or write your response in Word Online. I feel you though, that has happened to me as well. I agree with what you said about the archaic aspects as well. I won't complain too much though, since there's a work around and you can still use full sized avatars. Smh, it's one of the last social platforms where you actually can. Everywhere else forces the size dimensions and forces cropping. It really limits which aesthetics you can use, as not every image is able to look good once it's cropped.

[DEAD]

Nonverbal behavior is objective "evidence". Then it's mainly interpreted by N, and not by T as is mainly with common behavior and words. N is one of 4 equally important mind functions to deal with the reality.

Typing by intuitive impressions from nonverbal behavior (VI) is one of methods existing in Augustinavichiute's texts. She described such traits of types. Intuitive feeling of types traits is popular approach. Initial info about VI.
It's not against normal psychology that personality traits can be expressed in nonverbal behavior specifics same as in common behavior specifics. Unlike with physiognomics VI which uses static body traits, what is much doubtful.
That intuitive impressions from nonverbal behavior is working typing method was objectively proved in my experiment of 2015. It gave real typing matches (by random typers on random youtube bloggers) comparable to IRL interview and much higher than accidental (~17% > 6%).

So "NOT a valid" is your supposing results of this method as not meaningful.

In case you want be typed - make a video, so your nonverbal could be seen.
Besides lack of a part of important data, those who know types theory may semi-intentionally (having wishes to have some types, for example to fit better an occupation or better IR with someone) significantly falsificate such data what reduces the chance for correct type. These 2 reasons together make typing of not well-known personally people by Internet without video as not reasonable practice. Sometimes photos are good enough too, mainly when those are many.

That's not a very good explanation. I want to know what these nonverbal signals are and how they are determined. And who sets the criteria for them within the socionics system? They didn't just pull themselves out of thin air one day. How do you know that someone who raises their eyebrows is Fe, or people who aren't overly animated are said to be Fe devaluing, etc? Without a baseline to compare it to, and it being pulled out of your asshole, it has no consistency.

I don't want you to inaccurately type me based on some nonverbal cues, without analyzing the other content. You can not determine IR through a picture. It's a process of information. No amount of pictures is going to match people perfectly to their so-called 'dual'. The only way you can actually do it more accurately is by putting the theory to practice, and figuring out what works and what doesn't work.

I suppose you want to get some concrete types:
"the fact that I am a Beta ST"
Fact is objectivity. There are no known objective traits to say 100% about some types. There are only probabilities based on _more common_ behavior of some types.
To control your nonverbal behavior is much harder, unlike with what you say. So you may try to mislead by words to get wished types and more fail to get wished opinions by VI. Probably unwished types goten by VI predisposes you to reject VI without good rational reasons.

What the hell are you talking about here? Not a single person has VI'd me ever. You're also just assuming things here, and also assuming that your method is more important than the foundations of the theory itself. Okay, I admit that I might have overstepped a built by declaring Beta ST 'as a fact', but the more I think about it as a type in terms of the IMEs, then the more it makes sense over something like xEE or EIE. Nothing wrong with that making sense.

If you don't want to give normal data for your typing, what is videointerview. Then it's better to identify your type yourself.
T types tend to do so after initial geting of opinions about own types and then reading theory themselves. Typing is T region, - where they are assured.
It's more F types problem to ask about own types for too long, to trust too high some typer without objective reasons (when knowing about low typing matches and no objective proof of skills), to doubt in own types for years instead of noticing the needed data to understand the type, to reject some methods without adequate reasons, etc not so reasonable activity.

What you do is doubtful for T types. And seems you want get such opinions by irrational reasons and so hide important typing info about yourself. Or mb placed a video/photos in the past and now just want to get other types by more controlling ways from your side.
Objectivity is not what you follow or mb want.

Nope, I just want to think about things and decide for myself the best fit type and not be shoved into the wrong box. I don't hide important typing information about myself, and I don't care about controlling other people's perceptions of me. If anything, they're trying to control and push the indefinite narrative that "DEAD=SEE" when I have explained my stance multiple times. I do not trust their objective data at all. Why do you think I have made so many threads?

I also know that VI can be easily manipulated, especially with photos. NO two images will be the same, and you can easily manipulate images (i.e. lighting, changing your hair, different times of day, etc). And there is no one set behavior for set type either. As far as I am concerned, Socionics is about how people process information (IME) and how well they can process it (Dimensions) within the system (Socionics). Yes, there may be correlations between how X is and how X type is on the surface, but VI isn't always accurate. And even when you are doing a video questionnaire, you can only select questions from a certain scope of information, and a lot of that information can and will be biased. It's only within the confines of said data. Heavily controlled data.

Even within this reply, you are limiting the scope of accuracy by not actually thinking about all the factors involved. You're drawing to conclusions and assumptions too soon. I don't think that based on how I actually organize and process information in terms of function usage, I am an ethical type > logical type.

If you're just going to go by behaviors and VI as your chief typing method, then what is the actual point in working out the strength of IMEs and how people process information and their focus areas? Doesn't that nullify a lot of the actual theory itself?

And you have also assumed that I, a private person am not objective because I don't spill out my life on a socionics forum to strangers? No, that's not the way it works. Some people are private, and that has nothing to do with type. Maybe they aren't hiding or looking to change anything. Maybe they want to keep their real-life separate from their online life because of privacy concerns, or because they don't care about other people's opinions/reactions to how they live, etc.

There are plenty of t-types who make more than one thread, and who don't settle for vibes or opinions alone. They want to collect data, and they want to compare the data with their own understanding, which I am doing now. You also have made a lot of unclear assumptions about me that are incorrect, and that you are using as a basis to determine my type, which isn't how it works.

It's a system, and you can't break the chain. You can try and make the chain more accurate and stronger, but you can't break it. How someone acts is a [small] part of how they process information. Yeah, it can be a result of it, but most of the process takes place cognitively, within the mind. The final result has been processed to adapt to the outside world.

Also, I'm not rejecting your methods, I am questioning them. I want to know how they make sense. I question everything that I want to make sense of, in order for me to make sense of it. The reason why I reject any 4D Fe type (and especially SEE) is because I see contradictions between my own evaluations on how I use the functions, and what people see of me online. Something isn't lining up, and I think that's causing frustration. And people aren't reliable anyway. No one is really that consistent. They get swayed too easily. At least I am trying to make sense of why I think I am X type.

SEE..with high IQ or something, maybe strong influence from another type. Or maybe you’re just well-developed in different areas. I guess you could be SLE but I feel a bit more wary of you than I do of SLEs on here. Which is a common semi-dual dynamic.

See? You're basing that off 'vibes' and 'what you can see', and not actually properly measuring the ITR. How do you actually know that you're typed right as the baseline, and those SLE are actual SLE, and not another type?

[Bethanyclaire]

See? You're basing that off 'vibes' and 'what you can see', and not actually properly measuring the ITR. How do you actually know that you're typed right as the baseline, and those SLE are actual SLE, and not another type?

I'll get back to you..It's an interesting question. I often talk to my friends/sister about socionics but it's really hard to convince them that it's real or explain the difference between types etc. I guess it comes with practice, but we also need better resources than we already have.

It was all way too much for me at first to get my head around...(nvm why, it just was..). I was just happy when I discovered Rebelondeck's posts and probably read every single one he ever posted as well as screenshotted them...because he was CLEVER and he simplified socionics down to something that resembled science/ or a sort of general wisdom. Most of what I know about socionics I know from him..then there are my own observations from typing and also stuff I pick up from various people on here. But yeah I'll try to explain why you are possiblyy SEE later.