Adventures in Dating

[Lord Pixel]

This is a paradox I have ran into myself. See, the dating apps are kinda the source of the problem. The people who use the dating apps are, well, the people who use the dating apps. That tends to mean loose women and playboys who are all suffering from massive attachment issues.

The true problem, however, is that there's really no other choice right now if you want to date. Even if you successfully conquer your attachment issues you're left with a "well now what?" moment.

You're secure, you know what to do and what to look out for, but then you have to actually meet other secure people. How? Dating apps? Pffff, fuck no. The whores and fuckbois have already learned how to emulate that shit just like the libertines of old and boy oh boy was THAT some raunchy stuff lemme tell ya. "Dangerous Liaisons" is a book and damned if it won't sound similar to the modern dating market.

Church? I've tried (Catholic BTW). Every girl in my age range is wearing a ring. The only one's that aren't are 40+, likely widowed, and probably wonderful women but I want children that I fathered so they're right out sadly. They all follow the typical secure attachment pattern. They pair off and marry young and stay together for life. And "Christian" dating apps are just as bad as the regular ones. Tons of Single moms with ADD (All Different Daddies) thinking we're all a bunch of simps who will eagerly become "Captain Save a Ho". No we will not and we're insulted that you think so little of us you harlots!

Friend Groups? Well, maybe 10 years ago but that's been "patched" as well. See, now people don't want to introduce you to their opposite sex friends because that might complicate the relationships they all have with each other. If I have a female friend I think you'd be great for and I introduce you two and you don't work out that complicates everything. Hell, even if it DOES work out things get more complicated and everyone under 40 is so cripplingly risk averse I feel them to be cowards and this is coming from an ILI. If anyone is risk-averse it's us! Why the hell do you think we spend so much time thinking up contingency plans? Fun?! Well, maybe a bit but mostly it's because it's a lot easier to risk something if you got plan D ready to go if A-C somehow fail!

And this is ignoring the elephant in the room. The elephant that is the fact that (in the west at least) feminism has won total victory. Every aspect of our society caters to women at the expense of men and masculine interests. The "me too" movement destroyed the final hope of any securely attached man. That he could approach a woman who seemed interested in him, ask her out, and evaluate her behaviors on that date and be relatively certain if she was a lost cause or not. Now the attempt carries with it the non-zero percent chance of his life being destroyed with a sexual harassment charge.

Thus the impasse I'm currently at. I have no idea how to resolve it but I do know this. Men will not tolerate this state of affairs forever. The 80-95 percent of men who have no options reproductively speaking *will* revolt. There will be a reckoning. I fear the women who live to see it will pine for a world where "A Handmaid's Tale" was defictionalized exactly as written (if they'll ever be allowed to learn how to do that ever again that is)...

Most of them chose the bear.

[End]

A girl just called me asking me out for drinks. I feel badly because it's based on a misunderstanding. I had told a friend of hers I thought she was pretty, but didn't mean anything by it. I don't think we'd do particularly well together. She's ILI. I always struggle to talk to them IRL, especially female ones. This is going to go badly; I know it already.

Well she knows what she has to do at least. In order to find a good mate the woman has to be the one to initiate now.

You don't know if it will end badly or not however. Again, it is Attachment that is the ultimate arbiter of success in interpersonal relationships. Even conflictors can work if they have secure attachment. You can learn to love one another. Love, as I have come to understand it at the end of this journey towards secure attachment, is a choice. You choose to love others and they choose to either accept or reject that love. Secure attachment is the ability to both give and receive love.

Give her a shot. Bring up Attachment styles, what they are, how they manifest, and how you are willing to help her through whatever trauma she likely bears that keeps her from attaining secure attachment. Trust me us ILI's are just as capable of bonding over nerd shit as LII's are. Hell, one of my cousins is an LII and we get along great! Best conversations ever. Helps we're both north of 130 IQ so there's also that going for us.

[End]

Most of them chose the bear.

There's a reason for that. A fellow ILI made a video about it:

[FreelancePoliceman]

Well she knows what she has to do at least. In order to find a good mate the woman has to be the one to initiate now.

You don't know if it will end badly or not however. Again, it is Attachment that is the ultimate arbiter of success in interpersonal relationships. Even conflictors can work if they have secure attachment. You can learn to love one another. Love, as I have come to understand it at the end of this journey towards secure attachment, is a choice. You choose to love others and they choose to either accept or reject that love. Secure attachment is the ability to both give and receive love.

Give her a shot. Bring up Attachment styles, what they are, how they manifest, and how you are willing to help her through whatever trauma she likely bears that keeps her from attaining secure attachment. Trust me us ILI's are just as capable of bonding over nerd shit as LII's are. Hell, one of my cousins is an LII and we get along great! Best conversations ever. Helps we're both north of 130 IQ so there's also that going for us.

Brother, it's not going too hot.

A) she has zero interests, except for watching movies. And her taste in movies is really, really bad.
B) I don't love her. I think she's physically attractive, and smelling her makes me want to fuck her. If she doesn't feel the same way, that's not enough to make a relationship work. And I don't know that I want to make a relationship work with her.
3) She already complains I'm distant because I don't respond to texts quickly enough, or because I take some time to think about heavy questions she springs on me out of the blue like "Do you want to die?" "Do you hate your parents?" "If you had a brother, would you fuck his wife?" If I ask why she asks such things, she says I "have walls around myself" and gets genuinely angry at me. To some extent, I realize I can be a little cold, but we've been dating for maybe 2 days and known each other for barely more time than that. I think I'm OK for not wanting to immediately spill my heart.
4) I've been pretty open that I think she's pretty and like her. She doesn't really say anything herself except get mad if she doesn't feel I'm pursuing her enough.
5) we both feel we don't understand each other at all. Talking to each other and getting clear answers from each other seems mutually frustrating. I'll admit partial fault here. A lot of what she asks from me I reflexively try to deflect or joke around -- a dark and heavy mood with someone I barely know, whom I'm trying to make like me, doesn't seem desirable in any way, and it sets off alarm bells in my head. Speaking of which,
6) she's serious. Really serious, and gloomy, and quiet. I can make her laugh, but it takes a LOT of energy. I don't really know how to get comfortable with her in the absence of any shared functions. She's got no Fe; I only pretend to have Fi. I can feel she wants to do that Fi-bonding thing you people do, but I just...don't really work like that, and so I don't know what to say to her.

I'm typing this out, very tired, after a failed date. Sorry if there are typos or other issues.

[Lord Pixel]

Brother, it's not going too hot.

A) she has zero interests, except for watching movies. And her taste in movies is really, really bad.
B) I don't love her. I think she's physically attractive, and smelling her makes me want to fuck her. If she doesn't feel the same way, that's not enough to make a relationship work. And I don't know that I want to make a relationship work with her.
3) She already complains I'm distant because I don't respond to texts quickly enough, or because I take some time to think about heavy questions she springs on me out of the blue like "Do you want to die?" "Do you hate your parents?" "If you had a brother, would you fuck his wife?" If I ask why she asks such things, she says I "have walls around myself" and gets genuinely angry at me. To some extent, I realize I can be a little cold, but we've been dating for maybe 2 days and known each other for barely more time than that. I think I'm OK for not wanting to immediately spill my heart.
4) I've been pretty open that I think she's pretty and like her. She doesn't really say anything herself except get mad if she doesn't feel I'm pursuing her enough.
5) we both feel we don't understand each other at all. Talking to each other and getting clear answers from each other seems mutually frustrating. I'll admit partial fault here. A lot of what she asks from me I reflexively try to deflect or joke around -- a dark and heavy mood with someone I barely know, whom I'm trying to make like me, doesn't seem desirable in any way, and it sets off alarm bells in my head. Speaking of which,
6) she's serious. Really serious, and gloomy, and quiet. I can make her laugh, but it takes a LOT of energy. I don't really know how to get comfortable with her in the absence of any shared functions. She's got no Fe; I only pretend to have Fi. I can feel she wants to do that Fi-bonding thing you people do, but I just...don't really work like that, and so I don't know what to say to her.

I'm typing this out, very tired, after a failed date. Sorry if there are typos or other issues.

B is wild loool.

[FreelancePoliceman]

B is wild loool.

WDYM?

[godslave]

Brother, it's not going too hot.

A) she has zero interests, except for watching movies. And her taste in movies is really, really bad.
B) I don't love her. I think she's physically attractive, and smelling her makes me want to fuck her. If she doesn't feel the same way, that's not enough to make a relationship work. And I don't know that I want to make a relationship work with her.
3) She already complains I'm distant because I don't respond to texts quickly enough, or because I take some time to think about heavy questions she springs on me out of the blue like "Do you want to die?" "Do you hate your parents?" "If you had a brother, would you fuck his wife?" If I ask why she asks such things, she says I "have walls around myself" and gets genuinely angry at me. To some extent, I realize I can be a little cold, but we've been dating for maybe 2 days and known each other for barely more time than that. I think I'm OK for not wanting to immediately spill my heart.
4) I've been pretty open that I think she's pretty and like her. She doesn't really say anything herself except get mad if she doesn't feel I'm pursuing her enough.
5) we both feel we don't understand each other at all. Talking to each other and getting clear answers from each other seems mutually frustrating. I'll admit partial fault here. A lot of what she asks from me I reflexively try to deflect or joke around -- a dark and heavy mood with someone I barely know, whom I'm trying to make like me, doesn't seem desirable in any way, and it sets off alarm bells in my head.[yeah !] Speaking of which,
6) she's serious. Really serious, and gloomy, and quiet. I can make her laugh, but it takes a LOT of energy. I don't really know how to get comfortable with her in the absence of any shared functions. She's got no Fe; I only pretend to have Fi. I can feel she wants to do that Fi-bonding thing you people do, but I just...don't really work like that, and so I don't know what to say to her.

I'm typing this out, very tired, after a failed date. Sorry if there are typos or other issues.

Red = ...Red Flags. / The rest of the colors are up to interpretation...

If I may give a humble opinion, the problem is that you don't "feel loved/desired" by her or at least not enough. You need her to want you as much as you want her (I'm like that too !). If you feel comfortable enough to speak your mind freely without risking hurting her feeling (which should be a given at this level of the relationship) You should tell her that she is "hard to read" and that you need "things" (let that open to her interpretation) to be more explicit and less equivocal.

Moreover, If you feel better in her presence then stay, if you feel worse then leave. It's as simple as that.

[FreelancePoliceman]

Hi @godslave.

Again, I don't care about love or being loved when it comes to her. I just want to fuck her. That's it. Good vibes would be nice, but they aren't coming. It'd be nice to have someone to talk with too, but she wants to talk about serious and moody things and I want to chill. She gets mad at me for wanting to chill. We aren't compatible at all I think, except maybe/hopefully physically

As for being explicit. I've been thinking ILIs and LIIs have a certain polarity in this. Certain things are spelled out and other things they feel are obvious and so get annoyed to have to spell out. What they want to spell out or leave for someone else to figure are usually opposite. It's not intentional on either of our parts, except maybe that she doesn't want to be clear on our relationship status, which is definitely intentional.

[Lord Pixel]

There's a reason for that. A fellow ILI made a video about it:

ILI indeed.

[godslave]

Hi @godslave.

Again, I don't care about love or being loved when it comes to her. I just want to fuck her. That's it. Good vibes would be nice, but they aren't coming. It'd be nice to have someone to talk with too, but she wants to talk about serious and moody things and I want to chill. She gets mad at me for wanting to chill. We aren't compatible at all I think, except maybe/hopefully physically

Oh ! I see..

EDIT :

As for being explicit. I've been thinking ILIs and LIIs have a certain polarity in this. Certain things are spelled out and other things they feel are obvious and so get annoyed to have to spell out. What they want to spell out or leave for someone else to figure are usually opposite. It's not intentional on either of our parts, except maybe that she doesn't want to be clear on our relationship status, which is definitely intentional.

Maybe sex-friendship is the solution. Remember that you have the high ground in this situation, you know about socionics. So if half what we know about socionics has some truth in it, you should find the right way to make her understand what you want from her. Where there's a will there's a way...

[Lord Pixel]

WDYM?

The smell loooool.

[Lord Pixel]

Hi @godslave.

Again, I don't care about love or being loved when it comes to her. I just want to fuck her. That's it. Good vibes would be nice, but they aren't coming. It'd be nice to have someone to talk with too, but she wants to talk about serious and moody things and I want to chill. She gets mad at me for wanting to chill. We aren't compatible at all I think, except maybe/hopefully physically

As for being explicit. I've been thinking ILIs and LIIs have a certain polarity in this. Certain things are spelled out and other things they feel are obvious and so get annoyed to have to spell out. What they want to spell out or leave for someone else to figure are usually opposite. It's not intentional on either of our parts, except maybe that she doesn't want to be clear on our relationship status, which is definitely intentional.

I'm here to rain on your parade. You are not, you are definietely not. She's ILI right? Yea hell no.

[Lord Pixel]

Red = ...Red Flags. / The rest of the colors are up to interpretation...

If I may give a humble opinion, the problem is that you don't "feel loved/desired" by her or at least not enough. You need her to want you as much as you want her (I'm like that too !). If you feel comfortable enough to speak your mind freely without risking hurting her feeling (which should be a given at this level of the relationship) You should tell her that she is "hard to read" and that you need "things" (let that open to her interpretation) to be more explicit and less equivocal.

Moreover, If you feel better in her presence then stay, if you feel worse then leave. It's as simple as that.

Some of these are red flags for him, probably because he's alpha and not Fi and not type 4, for someone with type 4 and Fi this sounds like exactly what they'd want. Speaking from experience.

[Distance]

If in a relationship now at this moment, what you see now is what you get in the future.

[chriscorey]

God loves humanity so much he refused to to get rid of the psychopaths. Hell is closest to earth. Michael descended into hell.

Michael descended upon the earth and into hell.

[End]

Brother, it's not going too hot.

A) she has zero interests, except for watching movies. And her taste in movies is really, really bad.
B) I don't love her. I think she's physically attractive, and smelling her makes me want to fuck her. If she doesn't feel the same way, that's not enough to make a relationship work. And I don't know that I want to make a relationship work with her.
3) She already complains I'm distant because I don't respond to texts quickly enough, or because I take some time to think about heavy questions she springs on me out of the blue like "Do you want to die?" "Do you hate your parents?" "If you had a brother, would you fuck his wife?" If I ask why she asks such things, she says I "have walls around myself" and gets genuinely angry at me. To some extent, I realize I can be a little cold, but we've been dating for maybe 2 days and known each other for barely more time than that. I think I'm OK for not wanting to immediately spill my heart.
4) I've been pretty open that I think she's pretty and like her. She doesn't really say anything herself except get mad if she doesn't feel I'm pursuing her enough.
5) we both feel we don't understand each other at all. Talking to each other and getting clear answers from each other seems mutually frustrating. I'll admit partial fault here. A lot of what she asks from me I reflexively try to deflect or joke around -- a dark and heavy mood with someone I barely know, whom I'm trying to make like me, doesn't seem desirable in any way, and it sets off alarm bells in my head. Speaking of which,
6) she's serious. Really serious, and gloomy, and quiet. I can make her laugh, but it takes a LOT of energy. I don't really know how to get comfortable with her in the absence of any shared functions. She's got no Fe; I only pretend to have Fi. I can feel she wants to do that Fi-bonding thing you people do, but I just...don't really work like that, and so I don't know what to say to her.

I'm typing this out, very tired, after a failed date. Sorry if there are typos or other issues.

My advice remains unchanged. One ought to have "difficult" conversations sooner rather than later. This is one of them. She isn't opening up to you and sounds like a textbook Avoidant type. This guy's channel is a great resource and he even made a video about this one:

[godslave]

I'm aware of Bowlby's theory ( through my readings of Boris Cyrulnik ) since at least 15 years before it became trendy in France (although it's nothing compare to the US). That said, it's funny how Internet and social medias can turn everything into a cult like movement.

I think Attachment theories are a bit overrated. After all, they are just like Typology, a pseudoscientific easy explanation to extremely complex phenomena. Just like with Typology, people tend to see it like a definitive "style" without any "plasticity" something that you can't change (albeit allegedly Nurture>Nature) like your "core type". It's an easy shortcut that people make because that's what people do, they...put other people in boxes !

I mean, part of the success of this theory is due to the fact that it is accessible to the public i.e. easy to understand therefore to believe in therefore to promote in a prozeletic fashion. I mean the dude in the video above vibes like an evangelist. He is talking about hormones and stuff like a charlatan who wants to convince people to buy his wonder potion...

[Adam Strange]

Brother, it's not going too hot.

A) she has zero interests, except for watching movies. And her taste in movies is really, really bad.
B) I don't love her. I think she's physically attractive, and smelling her makes me want to fuck her. If she doesn't feel the same way, that's not enough to make a relationship work. And I don't know that I want to make a relationship work with her.
3) She already complains I'm distant because I don't respond to texts quickly enough, or because I take some time to think about heavy questions she springs on me out of the blue like "Do you want to die?" "Do you hate your parents?" "If you had a brother, would you fuck his wife?" If I ask why she asks such things, she says I "have walls around myself" and gets genuinely angry at me. To some extent, I realize I can be a little cold, but we've been dating for maybe 2 days and known each other for barely more time than that. I think I'm OK for not wanting to immediately spill my heart.
4) I've been pretty open that I think she's pretty and like her. She doesn't really say anything herself except get mad if she doesn't feel I'm pursuing her enough.
5) we both feel we don't understand each other at all. Talking to each other and getting clear answers from each other seems mutually frustrating. I'll admit partial fault here. A lot of what she asks from me I reflexively try to deflect or joke around -- a dark and heavy mood with someone I barely know, whom I'm trying to make like me, doesn't seem desirable in any way, and it sets off alarm bells in my head. Speaking of which,
6) she's serious. Really serious, and gloomy, and quiet. I can make her laugh, but it takes a LOT of energy. I don't really know how to get comfortable with her in the absence of any shared functions. She's got no Fe; I only pretend to have Fi. I can feel she wants to do that Fi-bonding thing you people do, but I just...don't really work like that, and so I don't know what to say to her.

I'm typing this out, very tired, after a failed date. Sorry if there are typos or other issues.

FreelancePoliceman, I love this post. It's perfect.

I, too, dated a female ILI for a while. I really liked the way her mind worked. She was brilliant and she was very attractive. Black hair and thin, and super Victimy, which brought out my Aggressiveness. Actually, it brought out the urge to [have a lot of sex with her].* She somehow gave me the impression that she was kind of kinky and wasn't too particular about who knew it, but I never was able to find out if that was true or not, because I lacked the Se force and Fi human understanding, that SEEs have naturally, to ever actually have sex with her.
She just kept saying No No No No No. I mean, ESIs say this too, but ESIs change their minds sooner than ILIs in this area.

My experience with this ILI woman, and my identical experience with an IEI, led me to conclude that all women are looking for something, and that something is a Dual, and if you aren't a Dual, you'd better catch them when they are out-of-their-minds drunk or horny (which happens sometimes), because they are never going to want you for any length of time otherwise. And certainly not when they are thinking straight.

These women weren't the only reasons that I decided to only date Duals, but they were a huge contributing factor.

If it helps, I think that many LIIs marry other LIIs or, less often, they marry ESEs. My LII sister dated an EIE (she said, "good person, bad in bed"), and an LII (only good for sex), an ILI (didn't listen to her advice on not spending money) and an LSE (great for sex, but add "doesn't listen to her" about anything). Plus, she had sex with a lot of guys I never met, but they were one night stands, most of them.
I'm still waiting for her to meet an ESE.


*

[contents], a euphemism for "fuck her every way but loose, all day long, every day of the week."

Post Script.
@End is right about Attachment styles, but I place Attachment after Duality in importance. I mean, both are necessary, but to me, having a Dual is slightly more important. If I were ever willing to put up with a Dismissive Avoidant partner, she'd also have to be a Dual who could suck the chrome off a bumper.

[End]

I'm aware of Bowlby's theory ( through my readings of Boris Cyrulnik ) since at least 15 years before it became trendy in France (although it's nothing compare to the US). That said, it's funny how Internet and social medias can turn everything into a cult like movement.

I think Attachment theories are a bit overrated. After all, they are just like Typology, a pseudoscientific easy explanation to extremely complex phenomena. Just like with Typology, people tend to see it like a definitive "style" without any "plasticity" something that you can't change (albeit allegedly Nurture>Nature) like your "core type". It's an easy shortcut that people make because that's what people do, they...put other people in boxes !

Attachment can be changed though and that's the point he's made with all his work. You have to believe it can be for it to be possible of course. A true, hardcore narcissist or sociopath probably can't conceive of ever thinking differently about themselves or others and thus cannot make the change. I call them "the lost" for a reason. Can't change em'. They don't want to change! Also can't avoid people putting other people into boxes once you get beyond Dunbar's Number. Human brains can only really "know" around 150 people. Beyond that into the box they go. Have to. Brain can't work otherwise.

As for Internet and Social Media turning everything into a cult like movement, well, you can ultimately blame Edward Bernays and his work on marketing. Attention=money and there are ways you can get people to pay attention to you and alter their perceptions on many topics. Once you understand him you understand the modern world. Our "elite" are in many ways the disciples of Mr. Bernays and it shows as they (and by extension our society) constantly try to mindfuck us into doing what they want. If you know how the mindfucking works you're immune to it and it just pisses you off every time you see it (which is all the time because it's everywhere). Sadly, John Q. Normie doesn't do research and the Public School system never even mentions him in the history books despite being the father of modern mass marketing and propaganda. They know not of him and his work, and so his techniques remain frighteningly effective against the average person.

It makes one pine for the good old days of direct violent threats. Do as the King says or get stabbed. Anyway if you're interested in the man responsible for the mass brainwashing machine we're currently suffering under here's part 1 of a documentary series I found to contain all the really important bits. It's a good starting point for this line of inquiry:

[godslave]

Attachment can be changed though and that's the point he's made with all his work. You have to believe it can be for it to be possible of course. A true, hardcore narcissist or sociopath probably can't conceive of ever thinking differently about themselves or others and thus cannot make the change. I call them "the lost" for a reason. Can't change em'. They don't want to change!

Yes indeed, it can be changed in theory (or should I say theories ?). I was referring to how the average Jane and Joe tend to conceptualize it and that contributes to the popularity of the Theory. This pretty much reflects my humble opinion on the Attachment Theory :

Watching this video put in perspective how similar in position Bowlby and Jung are in the sense that their original work have been used as basis for further development (like MBTI and Socionics are allegedly of Jungian influence). We can see similar issues and confusions induced by the fact of using the same nomenclature for different references both in Attachment theory and Jungian Typology. We can also see some striking similarities between Attachment Theories and Enneagram.

Also can't avoid people putting other people into boxes once you get beyond Dunbar's Number. Human brains can only really "know" around 150 people. Beyond that into the box they go. Have to. Brain can't work otherwise.

Now, I was vaguely aware of the Dunbar number but for some reason it didn't stick in my mind. You brought it back in a very insightful way and that actually made me rethink stuff. Thanks, I'm impressed !

Edit : However.... ‘Dunbar's number’ deconstructed

As for Internet and Social Media turning everything into a cult like movement, well, you can ultimately blame Edward Bernays and his work on marketing. Attention=money and there are ways you can get people to pay attention to you and alter their perceptions on many topics. Once you understand him you understand the modern world. Our "elite" are in many ways the disciples of Mr. Bernays and it shows as they (and by extension our society) constantly try to mindfuck us into doing what they want. If you know how the mindfucking works you're immune to it and it just pisses you off every time you see it (which is all the time because it's everywhere). Sadly, John Q. Normie doesn't do research and the Public School system never even mentions him in the history books despite being the father of modern mass marketing and propaganda. They know not of him and his work, and so his techniques remain frighteningly effective against the average person.

Again, that name (and his face after I googled it !) does ring a bell and I only remembered it after seeing his face (I'm very bad with people's names)). I think I am indeed immune to that kind of bs. I have some simple principles that protect me from a lot of the Marketing mindtricks like "Never buy something anybody is trying to sell you", "Never answer the phone if the number is unknown", "Never open the door to strangers (unless it's the Police or Firefighters/EMT paramedics)" last but not least : "The answer is No !"

It makes one pine for the good old days of direct violent threats. Do as the King says or get stabbed. Anyway if you're interested in the man responsible for the mass brainwashing machine we're currently suffering under here's part 1 of a documentary series I found to contain all the really important bits. It's a good starting point for this line of inquiry:

I will watch later, that seems very interesting indeed. Thank you very much for your time.

[Adam Strange]

“who we are and who we become depends, in part, on whom we love”

-Thomas Lewis, A General Theory of Love.

[VewyScawwyNawcissist]

most ppl dont have much traumas or definitely not enough to prevent them from supporting others. thus if soemone goes to "ew ur oversharing" idk what kind of brain worms they have. ppl who get affected by "oversharing" genuinely are people who are busy and traumatised thmeselves, who may have supported others and not gotten their support and thus not mentally able enough to even ignore stuff. but other ppl are genuinely spoiled and even if they are "working" they are working entirely for themselves or out of shallow pressure, not bc they are in danger or in need, and many ppl just think uh ave to only work for urself and ur not responsibel for anyone, yet they hold stuff over ohter ppl's heads. like if ur not repsonsible for me why should i be responsible for how u feel when i "overshare"? its obviously an arrogant gremlin who just wants their way. and the normal reaciton isnt to be like "ew ur oversharing" even by vibez and being uncomfortable like u can just say "im traumatised myself and have issues and im not in the space to handle that" without being disgutsed or bitchy about it, cuz the bitchiness itself implies "how dare someone share something?" u dont even know what ppl are ok with unless u share it first or u dont monitor their reactions to stuff over time to infer it otherwise.

[VewyScawwyNawcissist]

Brother, it's not going too hot.

A) she has zero interests, except for watching movies. And her taste in movies is really, really bad.
B) I don't love her. I think she's physically attractive, and smelling her makes me want to fuck her. If she doesn't feel the same way, that's not enough to make a relationship work. And I don't know that I want to make a relationship work with her.
3) She already complains I'm distant because I don't respond to texts quickly enough, or because I take some time to think about heavy questions she springs on me out of the blue like "Do you want to die?" "Do you hate your parents?" "If you had a brother, would you fuck his wife?" If I ask why she asks such things, she says I "have walls around myself" and gets genuinely angry at me. To some extent, I realize I can be a little cold, but we've been dating for maybe 2 days and known each other for barely more time than that. I think I'm OK for not wanting to immediately spill my heart.
4) I've been pretty open that I think she's pretty and like her. She doesn't really say anything herself except get mad if she doesn't feel I'm pursuing her enough.
5) we both feel we don't understand each other at all. Talking to each other and getting clear answers from each other seems mutually frustrating. I'll admit partial fault here. A lot of what she asks from me I reflexively try to deflect or joke around -- a dark and heavy mood with someone I barely know, whom I'm trying to make like me, doesn't seem desirable in any way, and it sets off alarm bells in my head. Speaking of which,
6) she's serious. Really serious, and gloomy, and quiet. I can make her laugh, but it takes a LOT of energy. I don't really know how to get comfortable with her in the absence of any shared functions. She's got no Fe; I only pretend to have Fi. I can feel she wants to do that Fi-bonding thing you people do, but I just...don't really work like that, and so I don't know what to say to her.

I'm typing this out, very tired, after a failed date. Sorry if there are typos or other issues.

actually i can relate to her. u urself said u didnt love her. about the texts quickly enough, shes just anxious ion think ist that deep in itself, but there maybe smth deeper under it. like ur not spilling ur heart to her so to say, but shes trying to see if ur worth her time at all. why would i want to spend "fun" time with someone that i dont think even loves or cares about me in the first place? whenever id have fun with someone id usually be suspicious of them but want deep connection/loyalty and try to get it somehow, and ofc it could take time, but most ppl who take ur time just dont value it much, and in the end isnt it easier to spill the important stuff from the very start, than have a pretend relationship and even invest emotions and then spill it and then it comes to that u dont even value or like each other in a genuine way/arent mature enough to and will just traumatise each other. ILIs often seem to not want to be used and are even more guarded than IEIs in a Te ish way, tho IEIs can be more guarded in a Fe - ish way that lets ppl use them first cuz they are giving but they are aware they may be getting manipulated. while the ILIs seem more split between "is this person manipulating me???" and be more kinda relcutant/suspicious and hostile and obvious with their Fi bc they want to feel safe and secure, they are more direct. IEis more let u stuff while marry-ly hoping u will reciprocate (not talking about sexual intimacy, tho even that may be possible maybe in very young naeve ones?) but often while being aware u may not and not being suprised u didnt and u used them. while not surprised im still hurt and angry.t theres that more mature Fi. until we get too hurt and tired to keep going and hoping u will change/adapt cuz we think u;re just dum and or impreceptive and u dont mean it/understand so u make mistakes or decide we cant handle it anymore or figure that maybe ure evil or too much and not trying enough (hello some narcy LSEs or manipulative IEEs or wheover) or until we dieee.


well i think maybe ure loioking to enjoy some fantasie, a good time and socialization while shes looking for loyalty trust love and care

[godslave]

I've done a bit of reflecting on this, and I think oversharing comes from a desire to be completely seen and still accepted. In that sense, it's a way of seeking validation. At least, that seems to be the underlying desire in my case.

[End]

What makes you think she's not willing to open up? Based on the post you replied (I haven't read further back), the ILI seems eager to discuss deeply personal questions. Freelance, by his own admission, is the one deflecting serious topics with jokes. She perceives him as having walls around himself and feels frustrated by it.

If either of them is avoidant, wouldn't it be Freelance?

The trap most avoidants fall into is that the more avoidant one ends up dominating the relationship if they get into an Avoidant/Avoidant situation and that, well, isn't good. That'd be a situation that dude talks about. He splits Avoidant attachment further into two subcategories. Ethical vs. Manipulative avoidants. Ethical is what most of them are (and what I was to be honest). They believe (like all avoidants) that nobody will ever be straight and true with them. Yet they don't wanna be a dick and (because this is at base not a true member of the lost) act like it's possible to have an actual loving relationship (though their definition of that will still be a bit fucked up).

The manipulatives are your true narcissists/sociopaths. Machiavellian to the point Machiavelli tried to warn them against just as Nietzsche tried to admonish the Nihilists. You'll become hated for DAMN good reason and that is, in point of fact, the worst case scenario. Good luck convincing their totally shattered brains of the very concept of that possibility. Again, "The Lost" cannot be salvaged. You cannot "redeem" a Demon. They made their choice at the beginning of time and it cannot be undone. The Exorcist Chad Ripperger spelled out Spiritual Evil when he told of his experience interrogating a demon. Demon's words in quotations:

Does it hurt? "Yes" Do you wish you had chosen differently? "Yes" Would you make the same choices again if given the chance? "Yes"

That's what we're facing folks. Learn to identify the demons. It's not hard and the sooner you force them to make that last answer the better!

This is not strictly related to what you are saying, but walls aren't always a bad thing. I have a new co-worker without a filter who lists off her mental diagnoses like badges of honor and off-handedly mentions her trauma in the middle of casual conversations. The group instantly becomes tense/awkward/uncomfortable, and it causes me secondhand embarassment. I have a tendency to overshare as well (especially online), so I relate to her problem. There are appropriate and inappropriate times/places for self-disclosure of various kinds. Healthy walls prevent you from oversharing personal information at inappropriate moments.

I've done a bit of reflecting on this, and I think oversharing comes from a desire to be completely seen and still accepted. In that sense, it's a way of seeking validation. At least, that seems to be the underlying desire in my case.

Behold the common wokie! Victimhood is a badge of Honor! Weakness a strength! How daring! So stunning and brave of her to tell total strangers where exactly to hit her if they want to hurt her in real life!

She's gonna be among the first to die horribly when this worm turns. I bet she's ugly and fat as fuck and has an OF account that gets exactly 5 regular views per session and I'm being generous here. Sorry to let the vitriol flow but I think we're on the same page on this one so I gotta vent this shit y'know.

You're right to feel embarrassed by her example because you know she's the kind of bitch that's giving all women a bad name in the eyes of any remotely desirable man. Your tendency to overshare is also, Ironically, rational. Even here on this site you can all but share your geolocation and it still won't do much. I frequently and honestly tell people I live in "Greater Appalachia". I do. I am honest in that. I am also the grandson of an Immigrant from Germany who wedded a 35+ woman and produced my mom at some point before she was 50.

"Do you have any idea how little that narrows it down?" becomes a very welcoming fact in online discussions. It is why I still have some vestige of hope beyond my own faith. Even if it's all a lie doesn't lie and those calculations scream "It's not over yet!" in Guilty Gear!

[godslave]

I overshare too. I try to be as honest as I can, not lying to myself or to others. That said we can't avoid white lies because of the so called "superego" (Freudian). For instance when someone asks us "How are you ?" and we respond "I'm fine thank you, How about you ?" even if we are depressed and deep down, we might don't really care about how the other is feeling. That's just one example of white lies that stems from a good intention but they are still lies i.e. not the truth of the matter.

I have some basic principles that I try to apply

1) Prime Directive (the Star Trek one)

3) "Don't do to others what you don't want them to do to you (variation on the same theme : "Treat others the way you want to be treated (i.e. kindly by default ).

4) (and that's from Bruce Lee) "Honestly express yourself !" hence the "not lying to myself" above but of course it's difficult to apply it in every aspects of life because well, Superego.

Note related but I also have a "security protocol" that I call DEFCON because I'm not a care bear.. .

Edit : This post was initially a quoted response but that post has been deleted so I modified it slightly (just a touch).

[Adam Strange]

Some people overshare because they have poor social boundaries and don't know any better unless they are corrected.

However, other people use "oversharing" as a means of domination. They make you listen endlessly to all kinds of things you really don't want to know, and they refuse to stop when asked.

I once heard a story about a famous movie producer who would return from the bathroom and tell everyone at length and in great detail about the bowel movent he just had. That isn't cluelessness, nor is it someone who is seeking better understanding from others, but rather that is a person abusing other people for his own aggrandizement and entertainment.

[godslave]

Some people overshare because they have poor social boundaries and don't know any better unless they are corrected.

I was wondering If I was falling in that type of behavior for the same reason so I looked it up on Youtube. In this video Dr. Ramani talks about it at : 10:58 6. Oversharing

Fun fact : I've just learned that the Youtube timestamps also work outside youtube as a direct link to the video at the corresponding timestamp mark !

[Distance]

Another good example of an EIE, btw. ^

[godslave]

Another good example of an EIE, btw. ^

I like her ! Even if some of her overbroad takes on narcissism made feel like one (which made me feel very uncomfortable cuz I'm not !). I kinda vibe like her when I speak freely with close people (essentially family members) but my natural way of being when I'm out in the wilderness (i.e. in public space !) is that of a man of very few words. In fact, these words are so few that I can make an exhaustive list of all the sentences I use since outside since 2016 in my native tongue :

 

- Bonjour
- Au Revoir
- Merci
- Par carte s'il vous plaît ("by credit card please" to the cashier)
- Assalamu Alaikum
- Wa alaikum Assam
- Une Pizza au fromage s'il te plaît
- Une Pizza aux Anchois s'il te plaît
- Une Pizza moitié-moitié (half cheeze half anchovy)
- Harissa mayonnaise salade oignons grillés
- Un tournedos
- Un kebab
- Cinq-cents grammes de viande Hachée

That's about it.

I didn't mentioned cigarettes since I quit smoking about 6-7 years ago. I didn't mentioned the conversations I have with my Doctors, Psychiatrist, social worker for obvious reasons.

[Distance]

I like her ! Even if some of her overbroad takes on narcissism made feel like one (which made me feel very uncomfortable cuz I'm not !). I kinda vibe like her when I speak freely with close people (essentially family members) but my natural way of being when I'm out in the wilderness (i.e. in public space !) is that of a man of very few words. In fact, these words are so few that I can make an exhaustive list of all the sentences I use since outside since 2016 in my native tongue :

 

- Bonjour
- Au Revoir
- Merci
- Par carte s'il vous plaît ("by credit card please" to the cashier)
- Assalamu Alaikum
- Wa alaikum Assam
- Une Pizza au fromage s'il te plaît
- Une Pizza aux Anchois s'il te plaît
- Une Pizza moitié-moitié (half cheeze half anchovy)
- Harissa mayonnaise salade oignons grillés
- Un tournedos
- Un kebab
- Cinq-cents grammes de viande Hachée

That's about it.

I didn't mentioned cigarettes since I quit smoking about 6-7 years ago. I didn't mentioned the conversations I have with my Doctors, Psychiatrist, social worker for obvious reasons.

Hey, lets get Adam to type you, i think it would be close.

[Tallmo]

Thanks, FDG. I see what you are saying or, rather, what Jung is saying.

Jesus, Jung is a convoluted writer. He takes a thousand words to muddle through a simple idea.

Might help reading him in English, revised translation by R.F.C. Hull (1971) [link]. It probably still feels convoluted for you, but maybe slightly less so.

Regarding Jung's style I find him pretty clear but extremely detailed in his analysis. At least compared to Socionics where related phenomena often are lumped together. These things are complicated.

[Lord Pixel]

Is Poor Boundaries an Fe thing or an Extravert thing?

[godslave]

Is Poor Boundaries an Fe thing or an Extravert thing?

I think it's 1D Se. 1D because otherwise they wouldn't have been judge as poor (sub normative). And Se because boundaries are about space and force that oppose intrusion of another object within that space, this is the domain of Se. Imho.

[Lord Pixel]

I think it's 1D Se. 1D because otherwise they wouldn't have been judge as poor (sub normative). And Se because boundaries are about space and force that oppose intrusion of another object within that space, this is the domain of Se. Imho.

I ask because I don't relate at all to the poor boundaries thing and I always here Fes complain about having issues with boundaries and extraverts complaining about oversharing.

[one]

It's only oversharing when you don't like the info let's be real lol

[Adam Strange]

I live in a university town, in a neighborhood where the professors live, which means that the neighborhood also has some rental properties for students, although these rentals are quite expensive. The university costs about $50,000 per year, so parents have to have money to send their kids here, and apparently, a lot of parents have money. But basically, I get to see what the trends are among the sons and daughters of the very well-off, aspirationally-educated class.

I get to see when hemlines go up or down, which form of footwear is in style, and what is the coolest form of transport.

The house next to mine is larger than mine, and it was just sold to a woman from California. She bought it so her son and his buddy can live there for four years, and then she’ll sell it at a profit. It’s a good strategy if you can come up with the down payment, the mortgage payments of $5k/month, and U of M tuition, every month for four years.

In any case, the two guys living there are quite a change from the ILI economics professor who previously owned the house.

They both wear cut-off jeans and sandals, no shirts, all the time, everywhere, and they spend a lot of time exercising together in the back yard. Their transportation is a new truck and a Tesla and a couple of Vespas. They have beer-fueled parties in the back yard, which is fine, because I did that, too. The weird thing is that the parties never include women; they are all-male affairs, and all of the men dress exactly the same way: bare-chested, tight jeans cut off short, and sandals, some with a baseball cap worn backwards.

OK, I figured that these guys are gay as the young Freddie Mercury, which is also fine with me. I mean, we don’t choose our sexual preferences. But I was fascinated by their choice of dress, and I assumed it was just a gay male thing.

However, this morning, I saw a guy across the street, walking his dog, dressed only in a pair of black swim trunks and sandals, and I seriously doubt that he was gay.

A minute later, and this is the subject of my post, I saw a male-female couple at the corner, waiting to cross the street.
The girl was dressed in a nice, thigh-length skirt and a frilly white blouse, and I would guess she was an Fi-dom.

I’m sure that no one will believe me, but I’m getting to be good at typing through body language. Anyway…..

The guy she was with was wearing tight, cut-off yellow jeans, sandals, and a green baseball cap with the bill turned back over his neck. I wondered, “Is the “naked male chest” dress style a trend now?” But their body language was fascinating.

They were obviously standing together on that corner, and the guy was trying to be together as a couple, but the woman wasn’t having it. He’d move closer to her and reach out and touch her shoulder, and she stayed centered and raised both of her hands to her face, which broke his hand contact. She seemed to be embarrassed by him. She was hyper aware of the people in the cars as they waited for the light, and she didn’t look at him, while he was looking only at her.

Basically, she was dressed to go anywhere and to look respectable while there, and he was dressed for a beer-fueled frat party, and she didn’t want to be seen with him. When the light changed, he grabbed her hand to walk across the intersection, and she let him do this, but she didn’t walk close to him. I could easily imagine her pulling her hand away as soon as that wouldn’t cause a public scene.

Some guys are idiots when it comes to knowing what they are doing.

I got to thinking about how a woman might feel if her companion were dressed as a gay male sex-object. Evidently, this particular woman found his sartorial choices to be embarrassing and unacceptable. But why? I mean, a lot of women are perfectly fine with dressing in public as if they are one step from the bedroom, but they don’t like it when their man does that.

My guess is that it comes down to what a person is saying they will bring to the relationship, and in the college years, this is vitally important. It is basically life-determining.

When a woman dresses to show that she is healthy and fertile, she’s saying that she is best qualified to produce children, which I happen to believe is the most valuable talent in the world. Worth far more than gold, especially if she is also a good mother. And dressing to plainly show this is an indication of her long-term value.

When a guy dresses like he’s one step from stripping off his shorts and hopping into bed, he’s saying that all he’s good for is immediate sex, and really, sex is the cheapest thing in the universe.

[SacredKnowing]

-valuing men look Earthy (like the Earth), -valuing men look Airy (like the Air).

It's hard to describe what this means without some pictures, but here it goes:



↑ An -valuing man. (Bl. Ivan Merz)



↑ An -valuing man.

(And no, you cannot hold the fact that I typed Neil Cicierega as LII against me by logical consistency; Socionics is a fluid typology.)

[Kalinoche buenanoche]

She bought it so her son and his buddy can live there for four years, and then she’ll sell it at a profit. It’s a good strategy if you can come up with the down payment, the mortgage payments of $5k/month, and U of M tuition, every month for four years.

She told you she had to take a mortgage? Maybe -even if she can easily afford it- paying it in full straight off the bat may not be the best strategy financially but it would be the most secure one for her son, no?

[Adam Strange]

She told you she had to take a mortgage? Maybe -even if she can easily afford it- paying it in full straight off the bat may not be the best strategy financially but it would be the most secure one for her son, no?

Sorry I wasn't clear, kali.

The woman lives in California. She bought the house only so her son and his buddy would have a place to live for the four years they will be students at the university. She's not living here with them.
At the end of four years, her son will go somewhere else and she (his mother) will sell the house to the next person in line, probably at a profit that will be high enough to cover all the rent he would have paid, if he had been renting. So, buying (and selling) the house lets him live in school for four years, rent free.
If you have money, you get more money automatically.


But yes, paying for a house in full makes sense if:

1. You have the cash to pay for it, and the cash can't be invested more profitably elsewhere, and
2. It is your primary residence. If it is a rental, it should never be paid off, but rather should be continuously re-mortgaged. Borrow against its equity and use the borrowed money to buy more rental properties.

I have several properties and mortgages and a personal equity loan guaranteed by one of the properties.

The personal loan is at the highest interest rate, so I pay it down ASAP.

The mortgage on the house in which I live is at the lowest interest rate, and I could pay it off today if I sold stocks, but the money I would use to do that is invested and is earning more than the interest on the mortgage loan, so paying off the mortgage loan early with high-interest bearing money would be stupid.

The mortgage on the rental property will never be paid off, because the loan payments come from the renters, not me, but are considered to be a business expense, and so are tax-deductible from my income. Owning rental property is a license to print money, basically, but the profits don't come from exorbitant rents. The profits come from the tax code. I was able to borrow against the equity in the rental property to buy outright a company which produces optics.

Once you have a certain amount of money to invest, it snowballs, and then you are limited only by your energy and your greed.

Personally, I'm not rich, because I like my leisure time and I'm not greedy. YMMV.