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Thread: Can you overcome the PoLR?

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    Default Can you overcome the PoLR?

    The thing that I hate about Socionics is how flat a view it has about human growth and development.

    The worst part is the concept of the PoLR. It's generally seen as every type's Achilles' heel.

    I think the PoLR can be overcome. It will never be your greatest strength but there is a way to balance your type out to the point where the weaknesses of the PoLR aren't as apparent.

    I think your dual can be the best resource for this personal growth, but I think even a "conflicting" relationship could be beneficial.

    How do you feel about your PoLR function? Do you think it can be overcome?
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    IMO, you can improve it but it’s always going to be 1D. I’ve accepted my Te PoLR. It is what it is, I’m always going to suck at it. I’ve just sucked less with a little work and not too much focus on it. It’s better when I have some good at Te just take care of it. I’m honestly not that interest in improving it cause it’s not something I understand very well either nor value it. Meh. It is what it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MissDucki View Post
    IMO, you can improve it but it’s always going to be 1D. I’ve accepted my Te PoLR. It is what it is, I’m always going to suck at it. I’ve just sucked less with a little work and not too much focus on it. It’s better when I have some good at Te just take care of it. I’m honestly not that interest in improving it cause it’s not something I understand very well either nor value it. Meh. It is what it is.
    I agree with this, I think that people don't really want to improve on it and that's normally why they don't.

    But I work in Finance, and I work SEIs who are good at their job and know what they're doing.

    So experiences like that are why I think its something that can be overcome if their is a need or an interest to do so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eudaimonia View Post
    The thing that I hate about Socionics is how flat a view it has about human growth and development.

    The worst part is the concept of the PoLR. It's generally seen as every type's Achilles' heel.

    I think the PoLR can be overcome. It will never be your greatest strength but there is a way to balance your type out to the point where the weaknesses of the PoLR aren't as apparent.

    I think your dual can be the best resource for this personal growth, but I think even a "conflicting" relationship could be beneficial.

    How do you feel about your PoLR function? Do you think it can be overcome?
    "Overcome" as if it is some kinda hurdle. Polr is part of your personality. Just as the color of your eye brows, its all in your DNA.

    I think if you wanna look at personal growth you should look more towards enneagram. Socionics seems to be largely static in its approach.
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    edited first part because bandD and Baqer were better able to put to words what I was trying to say here

    Quote Originally Posted by Eudaimonia View Post
    How do you feel about your PoLR function? Do you think it can be overcome?
    Fe is something I almost see as a strength to be bad at, like when SEEs show that they clearly don't value Fe I feel impressed by it, I like when the gimmickiest parts of the function are mocked by other people. The PoLR to me is a social obligation and I'm impressed by people that don't cave in on the pressure put on them to join in. I feel mostly the same about my role function Si, although I can see in some situations why Si is needed, but for Fe, Fi just does it better
    Last edited by ori; 08-30-2021 at 04:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ori View Post
    Fe is something I almost see as a strength to be bad at, like when SEEs show that they clearly don't value Fe I feel impressed by it, I like when the gimmickiest parts of the function are mocked by other people.
    What does this look like, in a real life situation?
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    The Jungian functions may appear to be trying to measure the ability of a certain set of skills, but imo in terms of personality it's much more useful as sets of personality traits that have only tangentially related links with skill. Being Te polr shouldn't be about whether or not you can follow a set of instructions well, it should be about devaluing it and becoming uncomfortable by it's incessant presence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eudaimonia View Post
    What does this look like, in a real life situation?
    don't have a great set of examples off the top of my mind but here's one


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    Quote Originally Posted by ori View Post
    don't have a great set of examples off the top of my mind but here's one


    Eeeesh this makes me cringe lol. That's Shailene Woodley, right? I feel embarrassed for her.

    Truly a masterful display of quadra differences lol bravo.
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    You can't really over-come it but polr has a strong side too. If you could 'Overcome' it- you'd also overcome the good too and that wouldn't be so good.

    Te polr enables IEIs/SEIs to see true value and to cut through fake society bullshit. realizing when somebody is full of shit regardless of 'credientials' when other people are too gaslighted by that. Si polr allows LIE/EIE to keep working hard at something when everybody else gave up, ESE/LSE Ni polr allows them to work hard and embrace the physical word when everybody else has gotten lost via their own insights. Fi polr in SLEs/ILEs enables them to see the strengths and weaknesses of people very fairly and objectively without being blind to romantic ideals. Until they see an IEI or SEI's hot ass that is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ori View Post
    don't have a great set of examples off the top of my mind but here's one

    I think she can be Fi-dom > Fi HA. Demonstrative is a strong function and you cannot turn it off easily. xEEs can act different than ExEs, but they don't disregard it like that, especially when they are on camera.

    Jennifer Lawrence is super charming and one of the most likable actresses out there. Whenever, she is on, all I see is Fe, Fe, Fe.

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    Don't think I'll ever be good at Fi, so I hope that my Fe HA can overcompensate in that category lol

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    I avoid going out and interacting with people and I’m sure IEI can relate to me
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    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
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    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    PoLR is an superego function so it supervises you. If you develop your creative pretty well there should not be any huge problems.

    My PoLR is Se and generally I find it very hard to motivate myself, especially before deadlines. However, I hardly ever miss deadlines since I have demonstrative Ni and I mainly drive myself with my curiosity. But no matter what it's very hard for me to be in the "motivated" state such that I'm repressing my own homeostasis. Also I'm not very good at using complex machines since my sense of force is quite limited.

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    You can play along with people who see it as a neurological condition such as psychopathy while acknowledging they have no idea. As such suggestive seems to be out of control much more frequently because it gives unwarranted joy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eudaimonia View Post
    The thing that I hate about Socionics is how flat a view it has about human growth and development.

    The worst part is the concept of the PoLR. It's generally seen as every type's Achilles' heel.
    Why is it "worst"? It is a great concept. Easy to observe in people. Easy to predict weaknesses if you know the type. Of course it is an Achilles' heel.

    Is this some kind of "Fe opinion", that everyone should be able to overcome their weaknesses? Seems a little too idealistic. Especially with the knowledge of types.

    Yes, it can be worked upon, and you do it by adapting and learning how to behave.

    If you are interested in development, then I think Gulenko has some stuff on it, and also von Franz in "Lectures on Jung's typology", but she's mostly dealing with the inferior (suggestive) function.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)

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    In general creative and PoLR both generate an annoyance. So this not a such clear cut case.
    Example ILI overworks (Te) and gets overwhelmed and then (Fe) whines.
    ILE is compelled to analyze an important problem and finds a solution that needs a solution that does not follow collective feelings.

    Which one wags the tail?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    Why is it "worst"? It is a great concept. Easy to observe in people. Easy to predict weaknesses if you know the type. Of course it is an Achilles' heel.

    Is this some kind of "Fe opinion", that everyone should be able to overcome their weaknesses? Seems a little too idealistic. Especially with the knowledge of types.

    Yes, it can be worked upon, and you do it by adapting and learning how to behave.

    If you are interested in development, then I think Gulenko has some stuff on it, and also von Franz in "Lectures on Jung's typology", but she's mostly dealing with the inferior (suggestive) function.
    I think everyone has weaknesses but we can always improve and transform. I don't believe in accepting oneself as flawed and not doing anything to change it.

    I think I will always have Si PoLR, but I can improve it to the point where I can appreciate it. But I know it will never be a strength.

    Transformation is key to living a fulfilling life, if you aren't transforming you aren't growing, if you aren't growing you are dead.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eudaimonia View Post
    I think everyone has weaknesses but we can always improve and transform. I don't believe in accepting oneself as flawed and not doing anything to change it.

    I think I will always have Si PoLR, but I can improve it to the point where I can appreciate it. But I know it will never be a strength.

    Transformation is key to living a fulfilling life, if you aren't transforming you aren't growing, if you aren't growing you are dead.
    If you are specialized in a specific field of work, then that means accentuating your strengths but also your weaknesses. You can't have everything at once. Modern people are highly specialized. Indigenous peoples less so.

    A person can transform in many ways. The polr is not necessarily important. I had to get used to Te so I can manage, but it wouldn't be a meaningful development for me to focus too much on it. It's much more important in my life to focus on activities in the area of valued functions. That will probably keep me busy for a lifetime.

    For the Jungians it's all about the suggestive function, since it's the "other side" of the conscious personality and at some point it becomes important to integrate it. But it depends at what point in life a person is. Usually it becomes important when people get older.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    If you are specialized in a specific field of work, then that means accentuating your strengths but also your weaknesses. You can't have everything at once. Modern people are highly specialized. Indigenous peoples less so.

    A person can transform in many ways. The polr is not necessarily important. I had to get used to Te so I can manage, but it wouldn't be a meaningful development for me to focus too much on it. It's much more important in my life to focus on activities in the area of valued functions. That will probably keep me busy for a lifetime.

    For the Jungians it's all about the suggestive function, since it's the "other side" of the conscious personality and at some point it becomes important to integrate it. But it depends at what point in life a person is. Usually it becomes important when people get older.
    I agree with this, I don't really understand Si and I don't really relate to wanting to improve it. But I think the real problem is I don't like the idea of having a weakness.

    I think its where my head is right now though, I don't think I would ever care about my superego functions if I could do what I really wanted to do.

    I agree most of the time spent on developing the PoLR would be fruitless. Like a world class football player changing careers to become a tennis player lol.
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    Honestly, I've found there's a "path" that can be taken where PoLR is set at ease. It's such an abstract thing it's hard to put words to it, and my words won't be your words so whatever.

    I know it exists somewhere and that everyone can find their own brand of it.

    It won't make you value Si but it won't matter then.

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    Personal growth will not change one's firmware. Now, workarounds can be developed for most weaknesses in one's processing configuration but I seriously doubt that a dual can help find them. It is said that typing should employ ten fingers but some of the fastest typists don't; a parallel can be drawn for PoLR.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    You can't really over-come it but polr has a strong side too. If you could 'Overcome' it- you'd also overcome the good too and that wouldn't be so good.

    Te polr enables IEIs/SEIs to see true value and to cut through fake society bullshit. realizing when somebody is full of shit regardless of 'credientials' when other people are too gaslighted by that. Si polr allows LIE/EIE to keep working hard at something when everybody else gave up, ESE/LSE Ni polr allows them to work hard and embrace the physical word when everybody else has gotten lost via their own insights. Fi polr in SLEs/ILEs enables them to see the strengths and weaknesses of people very fairly and objectively without being blind to romantic ideals. Until they see an IEI or SEI's hot ass that is.
    <3

    Sometimes I see my Te-Polr as the biggest L in life for Polrs as I feel soooooo unproductive and other stuff. Yeah, I seem to look at value very different from other people it seems. People always get surprised when I comment on things that are “mainstream ugly” or “objectively trash” but I see treasure Sometimes it bites me in the ass, mostly it doesn’t and people appreciate that genuineness.

    Can confirm about the SLE and ILE. I’m a little bit nutzo but it works every time

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    /hugs @MissDucki

    polr is also the weakest function technically and objectively, but it stores a lot of subjective & emotional data that is actually very useful. It's only a complete weakness if you view one's own heart and motivation as being completely useless and I think you have to be a huge asshole to do that. Objectively it's a weak point but there is just more to life than objectivity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eudaimonia View Post
    The thing that I hate about Socionics is how flat a view it has about human growth and development.

    The worst part is the concept of the PoLR. It's generally seen as every type's Achilles' heel.

    I think the PoLR can be overcome. It will never be your greatest strength but there is a way to balance your type out to the point where the weaknesses of the PoLR aren't as apparent.

    I think your dual can be the best resource for this personal growth, but I think even a "conflicting" relationship could be beneficial.

    How do you feel about your PoLR function? Do you think it can be overcome?
    It depends on what you mean by overcome. In my experience, we do improve at using our PoLR - but it doesn't look anywhere close to what we initially imagine it to look like.
    At least it didn't for me.

    You're absolutely right that even conflicting relationships are beneficial. Every relationship has a specific kind of benefit. The crux is identifying what that benefit is/how/what to listen for in the interaction.

    I've been working on (over?)simplifying these in a metaphor of digging for treasure.
    (Not sure how useful this might be for you personally, but I'mma put it out here so that it's out, in text.)

    My dual provides comfort/rest at the digsite.
    My mirror and identicals helps me figure out how to dig deeper, more efficiently.
    My activator helps/motivates me to dig.
    My extinguisher helps me figure out if I'm digging in the right spot.
    My quasi-identical helps me figure out if I'm using the right tools.
    My semi-dual helps me figure out how to use the tools correctly.
    My kindred helps me figure out if I'm digging for the right reasons.
    My business relationship helps me figure out how to profit from the process.
    My benefactor provides the mission and starting equipment to dig.
    My supervisor confirms that the work is being done.

    (The last two I'm still somewhat uncertain of. The others I haven't found the essence for the interactions, just yet.)

    What Socionics helped me with was to understand how to better differentiate between personal attacks and someone's way of processing information. That eventually we tend to reach a consensus, we just take different paths to get to that point.


    Number 9 large is very much on point in this regard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    "Overcome" as if it is some kinda hurdle. Polr is part of your personality. Just as the color of your eye brows, its all in your DNA.

    I think if you wanna look at personal growth you should look more towards enneagram. Socionics seems to be largely static in its approach.
    It is indeed static. Socionics is a system of information metabolism, what it explains in regards to the PoLR is that it takes more energy and effort to process information through it, than through our other functions.
    Sure we can improve on processing PoLR kind of information. But it will never be as good/efficient as Leading or Demonstrative.
    (The way this looks of me is that whenever I engage in Fi, I generally take a time-out from other tasks and require concentration/meditation to focus specifically on it. Whereas Ne/Te is basically multi-tasked.)

    The best way to understand the limitation of the functions is by the means of dimensionality.
    Think of dimensionality as bandwidth; how much information you are able to process in a given amount of time, using a certain amount of energy. A 4D function can be likened to fiber internet/a highway, whereas a 1D function can be likened to dial-up/unpaved forest road.
    This is why I believe that overstimulating the PoLR causes stress, as we recognize the extent of information, but we can't take it in fast enough. Chunking it down, taking breaks and accepting that it's OK that it takes longer time, is how I deal with it nowadays.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eudaimonia View Post
    I agree with this, I think that people don't really want to improve on it and that's normally why they don't.

    But I work in Finance, and I work SEIs who are good at their job and know what they're doing.

    So experiences like that are why I think its something that can be overcome if their is a need or an interest to do so
    This part is not so much down to getting better in using your PoLR. It's rather down to relating back to previous experience.
    The PoLR engagement occurs only when figuring out the methodology of how to do the calculations. Once methodology is figured out, it goes into experience and can be applied/recalled to through the leading and demonstrative functions.

    This is what, I think, makes SEIs such amazing admins. They tend to be great at creating and upholding routines.
    This is also why it took me a really long time to figure out my own moral compass. But once I had pieces of it discovered, I'm able to relate back to it through rigorous reasoning.


    This is also what makes older people harder to type from the outside. They have a lot of experience to refer back to, and it becomes increasingly difficult to spot the order in which functions active.

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    At least you're aware of your personal discomfort with weakness. Nobody is perfect, #9 put it pretty concisely. You can't take an Ni and Si approach to a situation simultaneously. Se pushes towards goals in a more direct fashion, Ne scans for alternatives. Where an LSI may possess what to them appears to be a consistent, unbiased Ti worldview, an ESI can conversely consider it cold, lacking a distinctly human nuance. We have our differences, selective attention, and limitations. It should not be cause for distress. You likely also have equally unique strengths that benefit yourself and those you interact with, you just notice what is missing.

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    Not really. You can "pump" it, but Gulenko says that it's a function that "inflates", meaning that the more you try to get better at it, the more you'll gather conflicting information that is going to take too much energy for a 1D function to "resolve". That's was my experience also. It's a vicious cycle, the more you work on it, the more you'll see that you need to work on it, with small problems snowballing into bigger ones, which could lead to depression. That constant mental activity will be draining and a waste of energy, as it could be used on functions with a higher efficiency.

    IMO, the best attitude towards Polr is to keep "watchful", i.e. listen to what people with strong Polr have to say and accept their help, but not obsess over it or act on it alone. A bit like suggestive, only that you don't ask for help from the Polr; but you expect it nevertheless. People with strong Polr have a calming and stabilizing effect, but when too much is present in the environment, it becomes draining; contrary to the suggestive, which is enlivening.
    Last edited by lkdhf qkb; 09-03-2021 at 01:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaxe View Post
    This part is not so much down to getting better in using your PoLR. It's rather down to relating back to previous experience.
    The PoLR engagement occurs only when figuring out the methodology of how to do the calculations. Once methodology is figured out, it goes into experience and can be applied/recalled to through the leading and demonstrative functions.

    This is what, I think, makes SEIs such amazing admins. They tend to be great at creating and upholding routines.
    This is also why it took me a really long time to figure out my own moral compass. But once I had pieces of it discovered, I'm able to relate back to it through rigorous reasoning.

    This is also what makes older people harder to type from the outside. They have a lot of experience to refer back to, and it becomes increasingly difficult to spot the order in which functions active.
    Polr can't really figure out methodology(2D); it can only relate to previous experience.


    I used to think that if I worked at it, I could get better at global structural logic, become better at analysis, redefinition, analogies, typology, general regularities, objectivity, & learn from my LII supervisors. And to a certain degree I did, but all those things are not my Polr, they are Ti-, or "alpha Ti" and not Ti+ which is IEE's Polr.I have been the proponent of Model B for some time already on here. According to it, IEE's mobilizing is Te+(/Ti-), Ti- being the "unvalued aspect" of the Mobilizing. Which explains why I could get better at it.

    IEE's Polr is Ti+, which is "beta Ti" = specificity, itemization, detailed study, thoroughness, accuracy, strictness, place in hierarchy, regulations, instructions, choosing the best option, precision of function, logic of organization, indicators, reporting.

    For example, if someone comes to me and tells me "you have no right to do what you do" I'll still be completely baffled, no matter how much I work on learning all regulations; I'll always second guess myself... "Do I have the right? Am I an outlaw right now? Should I obey?" That's my real Polr. Explains my irrational fear of policemen(other than most of them being beta STs lol).


    SEI's mobilizing is Ti-(/Te+), and their polr is Te-(Ti+), which explains why they are interested in general scientific endeavours, epistemology, and can be good at managing ressources(Te+). However, they will forever suck at making risky investments(Te-) or at becoming policymakers or regulators(Ti+). Same as IEE actually.


    ILE's mobilizing is Fe-(/Fi+) and their Polr is Fi-(/Fe+), which explains why they know how to appease negative emotions and let it all out(Fe-) and can have detailed "moral compasses" that help them deal with good friendships(Fi+).
    However, they will forever suck at knowing when to appear happy and excited, and will laugh at the most inappropriate times(Fe+) or at knowing how to deal with bad relationships(Fi-). I always wondered why SLIs and ILEs would be so warm(Fi+) with people they told me they hated, but now I know it's because of their common Fi- Polr. They have like no clue of how to repair a broken relationship(Fi-) so they pretend everything is fine.


    Here a link to the descriptions of all signed functions:
    https://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/107-Signs-of-Functions-Eglit
    Last edited by lkdhf qkb; 09-03-2021 at 01:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post

    Here a link to the descriptions of all signed functions:
    https://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/107-Signs-of-Functions-Eglit
    Lol, this is a bit outside polr but related to super-ego. I was repairing IEE's car and it turned out to be a real pain in the ass job that went to hell in every way, I still didn't give up and worked day and night with bloody hands on it. However, when she asked how it was going I let out all the frustration saying I absolutely hated the job, cursed the damn car to hell and how one should just push these old pieces of crap to the wrecking yard and drive new ones that still have warranty. It was just letting off steam without seriously meaning all of it, but she got very offended and upset about all the negativity and acted like I was criticizing her for not being able to afford a new car or even take the old one to a repair shop. I tried to explain that it was just letting out the frustration and I do stuff I hate because I don't know how to give up and the drive becomes obsessive the more obstacles there are. Can't stop thinking about it and try everything to just force the job to be complete. And that doesn't change the fact that I will get super frustrated, angry, having throw and break things to release it. And if asked, it'll easily turn into a rant.

    "Myself usually with the words: "You must do this". At any cost, but do it. Through the "I don't want to-s" and "I cannot-s". If you took up a task, then bring it to completion. Of course, that doesn't always happen. And it's not always necessary. But in general it's like this. With others, I usually raise my voice, approach a person closely, may even shout at them. I can, of course, hit them but wouldn't allow this to myself. I think this is a sign of weakness. In addition, I have a feeling that if I give freedom to my hands, then I will, as always, perform the task at 100%, to the finish line. However, negative emotions need some kind of release. Thus, I can throw an object. Or overturn a table. On the whole, it happens all together: the way I speak, my gestures, facial expressions, choice of words. All of this is perceived by others as an attack and pressuring."
    (−Se : SLE "Zhukov")

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northstar View Post
    Lol, this is a bit outside polr but related to super-ego. I was repairing IEE's car and it turned out to be a real pain in the ass job that went to hell in every way, I still didn't give up and worked day and night with bloody hands on it. However, when she asked how it was going I let out all the frustration saying I absolutely hated the job, cursed the damn car to hell and how one should just push these old pieces of crap to the wrecking yard and drive new ones that still have warranty. It was just letting off steam without seriously meaning all of it, but she got very offended and upset about all the negativity and acted like I was criticizing her for not being able to afford a new car or even take the old one to a repair shop. I tried to explain that it was just letting out the frustration and I do stuff I hate because I don't know how to give up and the drive becomes obsessive the more obstacles there are. Can't stop thinking about it and try everything to just force the job to be complete. And that doesn't change the fact that I will get super frustrated, angry, having throw and break things to release it. And if asked, it'll easily turn into a rant.
    Yea I guess she kind of felt blamed and mb guilty for putting you through all this lol. Funny, as long as I know I'm not blamed and you don't look like a murderer, I'm amused by those emotional F-Polr rants, but some deltas I know can't really deal with emotional intensity(normalizers? sx-last? Fe-Polr?).

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    Yea I guess she kind of felt blamed and mb guilty for putting you through all this lol. Funny, as long as I know I'm not blamed and you don't look like a murderer, I'm amused by those emotional F-Polr rants, but some deltas I know can't really deal with emotional intensity(normalizers? sx-last? Fe-Polr?).
    Yeah, I think she's probably IEE-N and sx last.

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    lol thank God for str8 male/lesbian car mechanic ppl cuz I sure as hell am not going to do that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    Polr can't really figure out methodology(2D); it can only relate to previous experience.
    Sure....though it was never the claim. I wrote that PoLR is engaged when figuring out the methodology of how to do the calculations.
    Meaning it's only active and contributes to stress while learning to understand the method of any given task. (In this specific example, the formula of how to perform a certain calculation.)
    Once the method of performing the task is known, we no longer engage the the PoLR when applying the same formula to a different set of numbers.
    However, it will be engaged once again when the time comes to understand a new formula for a different kind of calculation.


    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    I used to think that if I worked at it, I could get better at global structural logic, become better at analysis, redefinition, analogies, typology, general regularities, objectivity, & learn from my LII supervisors. And to a certain degree I did, but all those things are not my Polr, they are Ti-, or "alpha Ti".I have been the proponent of Model B for some time already on here. According to it, IEE's mobilizing is Te+(/Ti-), Ti- being the "unvalued aspect" of the Mobilizing. Which explains why I could get better at it.

    IEE's Polr is Ti+, which is "beta Ti" = specificity, itemization, detailed study, thoroughness, accuracy, strictness, place in hierarchy, regulations, instructions, choosing the best option, precision of function, logic of organization, indicators, reporting. For example, if someone comes to me and tells me "you have no right to do what you do" I'll still be completely baffled, no matter how much I work on learning all regulations; I'll always second guess myself... "Do I have the right? Am I an outlaw right now? Should I obey?" That's my real Polr. Explains my irrational fear of policemen, other than most of them being beta STs lol.

    SEI's mobilizing is Ti-(/Te+), and their polr is Te-(Ti+), which explains why they are interested in general scientific endeavours, epistemology, and can be good at managing ressources(Te+). However, they will forever suck at making risky investments(Te-) or at becoming policymakers or regulators(Ti+). Same as IEE actually.


    The result seems about right.
    Can't say much about the reasoning though, as I never felt the need, nor saw a reason, to dig into the +/- dichotomies
    of functions. Every time I tried, it struck me as if people were forcibly trying to apply the system to explain something that the system was not intended for. Shoehorning it in. (Kind of how it's the main pitfall of companies selling MBTI and other personality systems; promoting them as being able to answer more than than they were intended for.)
    This is why I agree with the sentiment that Socionics is largely static in approach. It only seves to answer some very specific questions in regards to information metabolism; how we process information.
    Trying to apply Socionics to intent is just silly though, as that is a process occuring outside of the jungian functions. Personally, I found that Enneagram does this so much better than any sub-systems of Socionics ever could. That's why I'm stacking these two systems when dealing with people.


    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    ILE's mobilizing is Fe-(/Fi+) and their Polr is Fi-(/Fe+), which explains why they know how to appease negative emotions and let it all out(Fe-) and can have detailed "moral compasses" that help them deal with good friendships(Fi+).
    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post

    However, they will forever suck at knwoing when to appear happy and excited, and will laugh at the most inappropriate times(Fe+) or at knowing how to deal with bad relationships(Fi-). I always wondered why SLIs and ILEs would be so warm(Fi+) whith people they told me they hated, but now I know it's because of their common Fi- Polr. They have like no clue of how to repair a broken relationship(Fi-) so they pretend everything is fine.


    I don't understand this part though. Specially the part about broken relationships.

    But let's start with being warm:
    Being "warm" (it's never warm btw - it's always polite, thus impersonal) to people I don't like is always rather about the goal orientation and possible outcome; Ne+Te driven, rather than Fe.
    Whenever people mistake my politeness for being warm, well, that's just a mistake that works in my favour. In the case when friends have made this mistake during a conflict, I've been quite insistent on reminding them of it. Friends I call those people I care about, so it's important that they have an accurate understanding of what I feel towards them.
    So the thing here it's not so much about not knowing when to show certain emotions, but rather about the limitation of 2D Fe; that we're an alright level of emotionally expressive and only a certain level of emotion gets expressed in communication. (Unlike 3D Fe who tend to be lively animated in their communication, and 4D Fe who are practically cartoon figures in their emotional expression. "Wearing their emotions on their sleeves", as it's said.)
    The Fi aspect in this regard is that we don't really know how we feel about something when confronted with something new - until we take a moment to process just that. The effect of a 1D function.


    As for broken relationships, I'll run it through my personal perspective and experience:

    Relationships are. Period.
    A relationship is by essential definition the description of where two objects are in relation to each other in a given context. Thus, any description is purely positional.
    I find it useless to add judgement values to relationships, such as good or bad, fixed or broken.
    Adding a judgement value to something implies that there's an underlying belief that there's a right way, and a wrong way. In my eyes, this kind of categorization serves no purpose. Rather, it hampers the efficiency/flow of an interaction (keeping a person from being fully present in that interaction) by switching the focus to the narrative (fantasy) instead of the events of the interaction (reality).
    That said, I do add personal values of whether - and how much - I like and enjoy various relationships. But it doesn't become a value judgement.

    When someone tells me that a relationship is broken, needs repairing, or that they're working to fix a relationship - I often chuckle. True. Sometimes inappropriate? Sure.
    The reason why I chuckle, is because of what these statements convey. In very broad terms: Their relationship is in a state where it's a game of position; it's just politics. That they're not personally present in the issue at hand, and likely not personally present in those relationships. That they likely don't really love each other, as they claim to do when sending excessive amounts of love-related emotes. I laugh, becasue the thought which comes to mind is; "Are you trying to convince me, or yourself?" Though it usually remains unsaid. (I only get to properly have this exchange with SEI friends, and a very close SLE friend.)

    In some cases, it just means "We used to have a good time, now we're not, so we're trying to get back to having a good time."
    In those cases, I rather listen to what follows. Sometimes I laugh, but that's because what follows sounds incongruent or seems insincere.

    So perhaps one can say that I don't know how to repair broken relationships - but it's not because I don't know how, rather it's because the notion of a broken relationship is inexistent/irrelevant in my mind. I just analyze the current state which the relationship is in, and work from there.
    (Incidentally, this is the kind of understand people come to through their involvement in polyamory or relationship anarchy, where they unlearn the societal expectations around relationships. Fe)


    Hope the perspective might shed some light on your own path/research.
    Last edited by Flaxe; 09-03-2021 at 03:17 PM.

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    Apparently, I can not hate. No surprise. It is more than awkward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaxe View Post
    As for broken relationships, I'll run it through my personal perspective and experience:

    Relationships are. Period.
    A relationship is by essential definition the description of where two objects are in relation to each other in a given context. Thus, any description is purely positional.
    I find it useless to add judgement values to relationships, such as good or bad, fixed or broken.
    Adding a judgement value to something implies that there's an underlying belief that there's a right way, and a wrong way. In my eyes, this kind of categorization serves no purpose. Rather, it hampers the efficiency/flow of an interaction (keeping a person from being fully present in that interaction) by switching the focus to the narrative (fantasy) instead of the events of the interaction (reality).
    That said, I do add personal values of whether - and how much - I like and enjoy various relationships. But it doesn't become a value judgement.

    When someone tells me that a relationship is broken, needs repairing, or that they're working to fix a relationship - I often chuckle. True. Sometimes inappropriate? Sure.
    The reason why I chuckle, is because of what these statements convey. In very broad terms: Their relationship is in a state where it's a game of position; it's just politics. That they're not personally present in the issue at hand, and likely not personally present in those relationships. That they likely don't really love each other, as they claim to do when sending excessive amounts of love-related emotes. I laugh, becasue the thought which comes to mind is; "Are you trying to convince me, or yourself?" Though it usually remains unsaid. (I only get to properly have this exchange with SEI friends, and a very close SLE friend.)

    In some cases, it just means "We used to have a good time, now we're not, so we're trying to get back to having a good time."
    In those cases, I rather listen to what follows. Sometimes I laugh, but that's because what follows sounds incongruent or seems insincere.

    So perhaps one can say that I don't know how to repair broken relationships - but it's not because I don't know how, rather it's because the notion of a broken relationship is inexistent/irrelevant in my mind. I just analyze the current state which the relationship is in, and work from there.
    (Incidentally, this is the kind of understand people come to through their involvement in polyamory or relationship anarchy, where they unlearn the societal expectations around relationships. Fe)


    Hope the perspective might shed some light on your own path/research.
    Wow, a lot to unpack here, thanks Flaxe ! I will have to think about what you wrote

    Just a remark: I wonder why what you say wouldn't still be counted as that 1D "Fi-" I was talking about. I'd guess that since a one dimensional function is only able to build upon experience, it can't create classifications or norms. You saying that you can't/don't want to differenciate between "working" vs "broken" relationships seems to be a good example of such a 1D inability to form norms concerning Fi-. For example, I can do both, look at the positionality of relationships(high Fi) and be present to the flow of emotional interaction (high Fe), and one doesn't obscure the other, it actually enhances it. A relationship will be defined as broken(Fi) if it can be classified as leading to continually bad interactions(Fe); both those aspects aren't separate. But maybe I'm missing something and I'm shoehorning as you say !

    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoRandomBSGenerator View Post
    Apparently, I can not hate. No surprise. It is more than awkward.
    If that was the case, you'd have a superpower, not a weakness. PseudoRandomJesus lol! I think it's more that ILEs don't know how to deal with their antipathies and relationships gone sour, so they prefer to ignore it, but I'm sure they get hurt inside.
    Last edited by lkdhf qkb; 09-03-2021 at 11:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    If that was the case, you'd have a superpower, not a weakness.
    Are you sure?

    You know, that component enables something mysterious like non-logical selection.
    Last edited by PseudoRandomBSGenerator; 09-04-2021 at 07:57 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoRandomBSGenerator View Post
    Are you sure?

    You know, that component enables something mysterious like non-logical selection.
    Kinda. Also my sister is ILE and she told me sometimes she hates some people so much she can't think of anything else, and she's enneagram 8 sx/so. I've always suspected you might be sx-last. Would you say that you have a passionate and addictive personality? Or do you have trouble both hating and loving things strongly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    Kinda. Also my sister is ILE and she told me sometimes she hates some people so much she can't think of anything else, and she's enneagram 8 sx/so. I've always suspected you might be sx-last. Would you say that you have a passionate and addictive personality? Or do you have trouble both hating and loving things strongly?
    As per people my critic seems to stay strictly in the field of their own self practice. I will give certain things run for its money. To further more this agenda I might appear divisive at times like wanting break away from something due to feeling when I just contrast the bias when the cracks starts to appear. Once it is not an issue everything is OK. It is as if there exists no loose cannons everything is forgiven immediately, lol. You know the end result of that and then it would be total idiocy to continue due to wasted resources.

    I know I confuse people a lot with this. It is like the determinism works = me happy.

    Love? It is if I'm just positive without differentiation or sometimes just falls flat out nowhere when I really need to think hard. There are also contract and convenience aspects that makes things easier, more efficient etc.
    Last edited by PseudoRandomBSGenerator; 09-04-2021 at 10:35 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    Wow, a lot to unpack here, thanks Flaxe ! I will have to think about what you wrote

    Just a remark: I wonder why what you say wouldn't still be counted as that 1D "Fi-" I was talking about. I'd guess that since a one dimensional function is only able to build upon experience, it can't create classifications or norms. You saying that you can't/don't want to differenciate between "working" vs "broken" relationships seems to be a good example of such a 1D inability to form norms concerning Fi-. For example, I can do both, look at the positionality of relationships(high Fi) and be present to the flow of emotional interaction (high Fe), and one doesn't obscure the other, it actually enhances it. A relationship will be defined as broken(Fi) if it can be classified as leading to continually bad interactions(Fe); both those aspects aren't separate. But maybe I'm missing something and I'm shoehorning as you say !
    Well, it's rather that I don't see a purpose in differentiating those, based on my current definitions.
    Working/broken dichotomy implies that there's an expectation being measured, whether an expectation is being met or not. So this classification seems to rather be Te-related, as demonstrated in your example; A relationship will be defined as broken if it can be classified as leading to continually bad interactions.
    The opposite definition, working, will be used if the relationship leads to continually good interactions. Thus the (unstated) expectation/measurement in that example seems to be along the line of; Which kinds of interactions are predominant in this relationship?

    These terms have the power to convey a lot of information, but only if the people talking have the same definitions. While this is often assumed, sadly, it's not always the case. The only time I can see this definition being useful, is if I'd want talk about this relationship to others, to set the narrative supporting my point.
    Thus, I don't really consider this dichotomy.

    Is it possible that types who engage in this kind of classification are those who desire/seek to Te in one way or another? IEE - SEE - EII - ESI?


    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    If that was the case, you'd have a superpower, not a weakness. PseudoRandomJesus lol! I think it's more that ILEs don't know how to deal with their antipathies and relationships gone sour, so they prefer to ignore it, but I'm sure they get hurt inside.
    I think this has more to do with something I brought up in another post recently, the Love/Hate relationship.

    I like making it a point of asking people; what's the opposite of love?
    Many answer hate, as if instinctively.
    A few ponder it a little, and answer; indifference.
    Both perspectives are valid. But only one of them is consistent with multiple other aspects of autonomy.

    People who say that hate is the opposite of love tend to look at it in a way of polarized intention: "Love - I want to build up/the best for the subject of my love. Hate - I want to destroy/the worst for the subject of my hate."
    People who say that indifference is the opposite of love, tend to look at it in the way of energetics: "What I love, and what I hate, matter. These subjects have the ability to move me, command my attention and resources. What I'm indifferent to, has no effect."
    Those who answer indifference, tend to understand that love and hate are really close to each other. That it doesn't take much to push someone from hate to love, and vice versa. Plus, it's not uncommon that people say they hate whoever they love. ("I hate that he's so damn good at what he does")
    The difference between hate and love is whether something is working along our perceived interests, or not. (That friend we hate for being so damn good at what he does, he's only working against the perception of us being at our best. What he really does though, is challenge us to become better. Show us that we can be better. This is why it's said that a hero is only as good as his villain. As it's the villain who is the main driver for the hero becoming more heroic.)


    So in line with PseudoRandomBSGenerator, I don't (hold on to) hate.
    In short; Objects of our hate tend to remind us of our shortcomings. It's how we react to this reminder that's the important thing; will you focus your energy on yourself - or on something outside of yourself?
    Hating is focusing energy on someone else. It might be a way to seem more powerful momentarily, by talking someone down, but it does nothing for my ability to build up myself.
    Whenever I notice reacting to something with hate, I now know that it's a reminder for myself; that someone is achieving something that I want, that they understood something I don't yet.
    It's a sign for me to review my situation and focus my energy on me, instead of on someone else, to start building myself up.

    So we're back to the same thing as before; hate is not an efficient way of furthering my interests - so I don't generally hold on to/engage in it.
    Last edited by Flaxe; 09-06-2021 at 10:50 AM.

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    Crystallization of an emotion into a feeling vs a feeling dispersing into an emotion.

    Weird stuff. Having an emotion does not require crystallization. Similarly emoting a feeling might not happen.
    While negative emotions are somewhat personally familiar I'm thinking of how it condenses and parameters behind it. I'd say that the end result may be positive or negative and how far it solidifies may vary as well.
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type
    Life is a joke but do you have a life?

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