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    16 TYPE'S RESIDENT FIXER DEAD's Avatar
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    Question I need advice

    I'm not usually the one to ask for personal advice, and relationship (issue) advice but this happened to me today for the first time.

    My Dad is an Fi valuer of some sort (prolly Gamma NT, based on the amount of Te he has), and I am pretty sure I'm not. We were eating curry in the yard and we have a deck outside our house and several tables where we sometimes eat outside in the good weather. I like my personal space, and a lot of it because I don't like people getting too close and intimate with me and because it's more comfortable that way. I have no problem sitting near him or talking to him but there was me and him in the yard and four other seats. I was out with my curry, and he came out with his. There didn't look to be a lot of space on the table, or beside me and he asked me to move up to let him sit down (keep in mind, there were four other spaced out seats and two tables spread out) and I said unwittingly (not out of malice) that I didn't want him to sit beside me.

    The next second out nowhere, he started cussing me out and calling me the b-word saying all these things about me, about how I'm not X because basically I wouldn't let him get close to me, and then he was like "this is what I get for trying to be close to DEAD". I tried to explain and apologize, but he was having none of it, so after his "rant", he just sat and ignored me, so we sat in silence for half an hour. At the end of my meal, I apologised and told him I like my personal space and thanked him for making me the curry. I went down to my room, and he has ignored me since.

    So how can I handle this situation and **try** to explain to him that I value personal space, and it is nothing personal against him? It seems like he took it the wrong way, and I didn't mean it that way. Any advice?

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    Enlightened Hedonist Subteigh's Avatar
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    He should reasonably know this is an atypical situation (one that hasn't really arisen before). I don't think there's much more you can say other than say you like a bit of space/quiet space sometimes, that you were lost in thought etc., and that you did not mean to disrespect him.

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    Would you be comfortable hanging out with him in a different way, like watching a tv show, or film with him?

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    My parents have taken it very personally if I maintain distance from them - and I’m not even likely to say “I don’t want you to sit here,” I simply don’t participate - and they took it very personally, saying I hated them. Of course I don’t, but I do have avoidant attachment with them. It feels a bit like strangers, although strangers I’m used to, trying to be emotionally intimate and the knee jerk reaction is “ew”/repulsion even though I don’t hate them as people at all. Imagine if you yourself were in a situation someone was getting more intimate than you felt with them…it’s that kind of feeling.

    i think over time it has subsided though so I don’t think they believe it anymore. If he’s gamma them him exploding makes more sense mb due to valued Se and “respect” esp concerning family and loyalty etc. may tie into it, they can be a bit more harsh or punitive sounding if those things feel violated to them.

    your dad I think is hurt right now that you don’t want to be as close to him as he would like to be to you?
    I guess the question then is - in the long run, do you want to be close to him? Of not then that may be a difficult conversation to have.

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Lol
    Let people vent their frustrations and settle down and then when things are calm again slip them a favorite dessert and a note saying “I love you I just don’t want to sit so close”
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
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    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

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    I do this too. My entire family could be eating in one room but I prefer to go take my food and eat in the other. Being around them and close doesn't feel good for me at times and I get anxious. They would verbally express that they didn't like me going in the other room. Funny thing is that when they do that more, I don't want to sit with them. We may see it as not personal but, as a parent, I think it can really hurt them. Like, why doesn't my kid not want to sit next to me? What did I do to deserve this? Am I a bad parent? What am I doing wrong? He seemed to have lashed out based on his own hurt feelings and reacted poorly. I think a lot of parents see their kid as an extension of themselves and forget how they are there own person and may view/react to things and them differently.
    My mom is a Te/Fi valuer and would get upset when I pushed her away. Especially when I was really upset and in emotional pain. When she would try to 'fix' it, say with a hug, she would get even more upset at me because I was resisting it. It was nothing personal, I just needed space and it was hurting me more but she couldn't see that. I think she was more upset with herself for not being able to help me then anything. It seems that people tend to react and project based on their own feelings rather then thinking about the situation. I still don't like to share and get too close but after a personal conversation, she was able to see my side more. It actually started with me talking about my cousin and then snowballed into how I dislike it when she invalidates me feelings or why I get upset. She took it surprisingly well.

    I would wait a little while for it too cool down. Maybe offer a peace offering like his favorite food or desert and have a conversation. It can show a sense of Fi with a peace offering and gamma types seem to like gifts in a sense. Te types like the facts, and as an SLE, you do have pretty good Te so playing on that may help. Using a lot of "I" statements and explain how you feel personally and not direct it back on him will help. I feel this, I feel that. When you do this, I feel this because....Making accusatory statements (when You do this, You make me feel..etc) tends to escalate these types of situations. Plus relationship experts always say to use I statements. Just be true to yourself and explain it the best you can to him and your view. If he reacts poorly then he is just not ready for the conversation then. It took my mom more time to be open too it too. Give it time for now and just be honest.

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    Odds are good that your dad has a lot of expectations for you and he wants to help you. Most Dads feel this way toward their kids.

    It may be that he was hoping to share some advice with you, and you seemed to reject his presence out of hand. More than just wanting your space, it probably seemed to him that you were rejecting him and all he was trying to do for you.

    I know that I had some real problems with my son not meeting my expectations, because I was doing the stupid, ignorant Father thing and saying to him, "I worked and I slaved to succeed and to give you a good life, and I've found that there is only ONE way to succeed in this world, and that's the way I succeeded, and so you should exactly repeat doing what I did, only better."

    There is a lot wrong with this kind of thinking, but fathers have the greatest hopes for their sons and want to see them succeed and sometimes they (me) have a hard time seeing that the kid is a completely different person with a completely different path, and that the kid wants to tread that path on his own. It seems simple enough, but a lot of parents (especially ExxJ parents) want to see their kids succeed where they didn't, or sooner than they did. It took my son years of screwing off before I realized that I couldn't live his life for him, and after I stopped trying to fix his life for him, we got on much better terms.

    Personally, I think your dad would benefit from some third party (your mom?) telling him that you are doing fine just as you are, and that you need to live your life, not his. You can try telling him this yourself, but it will have more impact coming from someone else, because he might still be thinking of you as a little kid who needs to be guided, rather than as a person who can stand and do well on his own two feet.

    Best of luck to you with this. He probably won't change his opinion overnight. You'll have to keep reminding him. Lol.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 07-16-2021 at 01:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Odds are good that your dad has a lot of expectations for you and he wants to help you. Most Dads feel this way toward their kids.

    It may be that he was hoping to share some advice with you, and you seemed to reject his presence out of hand. More than just wanting your space, it probably seemed to him that you were rejecting him and all he was trying to do for you.

    I know that I had some real problems with my son not meeting my expectations, because I was doing the stupid, ignorant Father thing and saying to him, "I worked and I slaved to succeed and to give you a good live, and I've found that there is only ONE way to succeed in this world, and that's the way I succeeded, and so you should exactly repeat doing what I did, only better."

    There is a lot wrong with this kind of thinking, but fathers have the greatest hopes for their sons and want to see them succeed and sometimes they (me) have a hard time seeing that the kid is a completely different person with a completely different path, and that the kid wants to tread that path on his own. It seems simple enough, but a lot of parents (especially ExxJ parents) want to see their kids succeed where they didn't, or sooner than they did. It took my son years of screwing off before I realized that I couldn't live his life for him, and after I stopped trying to fix his life for him, we got on much better terms.
    You know, I think this might be a Gamma NT thing as well because my ILI mother has had this exact conversation with me. Being a parent with Te + Ni in one's ego results in the ability to extrapolate how shitty the world can be for their kids, and this gives them anxiety - resulting in an approach that can seem limiting and controlling to the kid, but only intends to protect them from the perspective of the parent. It's unfortunately a lot to unpack for someone not in Gamma quadra. I haven't fully figured out how to handle my mom, although she is the most loving person I know - but I do believe it's important to realize Gamma NTs care very deeply, so much so that their desire to protect their loved ones can cloud their ability to see when it's perhaps doing more harm than good.

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    "this is what I get for trying to be close to DEAD"

    Sounds like he made it pretty clear that he was trying to get closer to 'you'. Maybe he doesn't know how to be closer to you without getting on you? I guess this situation has come up before in different contexts and I think that you have an idea of how you can gain perspective. Have you ever told him what you would like him to change without being in a heated situation ? Maybe at first you or him will be losing temper but with time it can smooth out
    Last edited by Kalinoche buenanoche; 07-16-2021 at 10:59 AM.

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    Well he's your dad so he's always going to try to get close to you and get to know you probably. I have noticed sometimes though Fi valuers will get try to get super close and intimate with me and it has made me feel awkward despite having 4D Fi myself, I suppose because mine isn't 'valued.' Is he LIE? LIEs especially I've noticed can be really needy with wanting closeness- it's weird. They are often like cold hardened assholes in public but on a one on one situation they want like these warm Fi fuzzies. The juxtaposition of that is weird to me and trolls me. I haven't known how to respond to them and sometimes I've felt guilty because they seem so soft and nice with this, like a dog begging for Fi scraps or something. lol.

    Don't push him away completely- but I think you two need to find an activity you both like to do together where you can kind of bond together without it hurting your Fi polr.

    I remember I always sat by myself at lunch in middle school & high school. Ppl thought it was cuz I was bullied and didn't fit in but I think even if I was treated like royalty and had lots of friends- I'd probably prefer this. And one on one I'll probably push the person away if they get too Fi and needy.

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    16 TYPE'S RESIDENT FIXER DEAD's Avatar
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    Sorry for the delay in response. I had to compile and respond to these all in a Notes document to organise them and keep my replies synced and together:

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    He should reasonably know this is an atypical situation (one that hasn't really arisen before). I don't think there's much more you can say other than say you like a bit of space/quiet space sometimes, that you were lost in thought etc., and that you did not mean to disrespect him.
    Yeah, I did that last night. I gave him space, and let him know what was up. He said I was rude, but I understand why now. He explained it, and things are better today as of lately, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by rtht View Post
    Would you be comfortable hanging out with him in a different way, like watching a tv show, or film with him?
    Yes. I prefer movies because we have something to discuss afterwards, you know? Like the plot and action scenes, or if it’s a comedy, something to laugh at. I think he gets quite a release from comedies, as far as I have observed over the years.

    Quote Originally Posted by necrosebud View Post
    My parents have taken it very personally if I maintain distance from them - and I’m not even likely to say “I don’t want you to sit here,” I simply don’t participate - and they took it very personally, saying I hated them. Of course I don’t, but I do have avoidant attachment with them. It feels a bit like strangers, although strangers I’m used to, trying to be emotionally intimate and the knee jerk reaction is “ew”/repulsion even though I don’t hate them as people at all. Imagine if you yourself were in a situation someone was getting more intimate than you felt with them…it’s that kind of feeling.

    i think over time it has subsided though so I don’t think they believe it anymore. If he’s gamma them him exploding makes more sense mb due to valued Se and “respect” esp concerning family and loyalty etc. may tie into it, they can be a bit more harsh or punitive sounding if those things feel violated to them.

    your dad I think is hurt right now that you don’t want to be as close to him as he would like to be to you?
    I guess the question then is - in the long run, do you want to be close to him? Of not then that may be a difficult conversation to have.
    Basically and especially as an introvert, you like your space, right? I think that PoLR Se and extroversion makes people less likely to be blunt and say it off the bat they they don’t want people sitting beside them, or that they want to partake in a way. If am making sense of this.

    Yeah, he definitely can be explosive at times, he’s definitely very into “family” and “respect” and “loyalty” as concepts and he has “disciplinary ideas” surrounding those concepts. I think he is hurt because I pushed him away, and he wanted to be closer to me. I don’t really know, and I don’t dislike him or anything but I think we all need space, maybe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    Lol
    Let people vent their frustrations and settle down and then when things are calm again slip them a favorite dessert and a note saying “I love you I just don’t want to sit so close”
    He got ice-cream, but not from me. Cold sugary foods can be calming, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by MissDucki View Post
    I do this too. My entire family could be eating in one room but I prefer to go take my food and eat in the other. Being around them and close doesn't feel good for me at times and I get anxious. They would verbally express that they didn't like me going in the other room. Funny thing is that when they do that more, I don't want to sit with them. We may see it as not personal but, as a parent, I think it can really hurt them. Like, why doesn't my kid not want to sit next to me? What did I do to deserve this? Am I a bad parent? What am I doing wrong?

    He seemed to have lashed out based on his own hurt feelings and reacted poorly. I think a lot of parents see their kid as an extension of themselves and forget how they are there own person and may view/react to things and them differently.

    My mom is a Te/Fi valuer and would get upset when I pushed her away. Especially when I was really upset and in emotional pain. When she would try to 'fix' it, say with a hug, she would get even more upset at me because I was resisting it. It was nothing personal, I just needed space and it was hurting me more but she couldn't see that. I think she was more upset with herself for not being able to help me then anything. It seems that people tend to react and project based on their own feelings rather then thinking about the situation. I still don't like to share and get too close but after a personal conversation, she was able to see my side more. It actually started with me talking about my cousin and then snowballed into how I dislike it when she invalidates me feelings or why I get upset. She took it surprisingly well.

    I would wait a little while for it too cool down. Maybe offer a peace offering like his favorite food or desert and have a conversation. It can show a sense of Fi with a peace offering and gamma types seem to like gifts in a sense. Te types like the facts, and as an SLE, you do have pretty good Te so playing on that may help. Using a lot of "I" statements and explain how you feel personally and not direct it back on him will help. I feel this, I feel that. When you do this, I feel this because....Making accusatory statements (when You do this, You make me feel..etc) tends to escalate these types of situations. Plus relationship experts always say to use I statements. Just be true to yourself and explain it the best you can to him and your view. If he reacts poorly then he is just not ready for the conversation then. It took my mom more time to be open too it too. Give it time for now and just be honest.
    I think that Fi relies a lot on making close bonds, and I think that I should probably “tell” them to appease his Te and Se and let him know what’s up, based on this. I think he just likes people to tell him straight, if that makes sense? So, like “I think that …. And we should …. What do you think?” when I am explaining things would work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Odds are good that your dad has a lot of expectations for you and he wants to help you. Most Dads feel this way toward their kids.

    It may be that he was hoping to share some advice with you, and you seemed to reject his presence out of hand. More than just wanting your space, it probably seemed to him that you were rejecting him and all he was trying to do for you.

    I know that I had some real problems with my son not meeting my expectations, because I was doing the stupid, ignorant Father thing and saying to him, "I worked and I slaved to succeed and to give you a good life, and I've found that there is only ONE way to succeed in this world, and that's the way I succeeded, and so you should exactly repeat doing what I did, only better."

    There is a lot wrong with this kind of thinking, but fathers have the greatest hopes for their sons and want to see them succeed and sometimes they (me) have a hard time seeing that the kid is a completely different person with a completely different path, and that the kid wants to tread that path on his own. It seems simple enough, but a lot of parents (especially ExxJ parents) want to see their kids succeed where they didn't, or sooner than they did. It took my son years of screwing off before I realized that I couldn't live his life for him, and after I stopped trying to fix his life for him, we got on much better terms.

    Personally, I think your dad would benefit from some third party (your mom?) telling him that you are doing fine just as you are, and that you need to live your life, not his. You can try telling him this yourself, but it will have more impact coming from someone else, because he might still be thinking of you as a little kid who needs to be guided, rather than as a person who can stand and do well on his own two feet.

    Best of luck to you with this. He probably won't change his opinion overnight. You'll have to keep reminding him. Lol.
    Yeah, my Dad means well and he does have a lot of expectations for me (more so than my Mam, who I am sure is Alpha SF at this point).

    My Dad wants us (me and my brother) to be “productive” people, and make something of ourselves. You can do it, yes, but it takes time to actually set things up. I don’t think like him, and he doesn’t think like me. Our generations are different, and we have different ways of doing things that still bring us to success.

    I wonder how my Mam would explain things to him though. They kinda argue a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by PinKDiGiT18 View Post
    You know, I think this might be a Gamma NT thing as well because my ILI mother has had this exact conversation with me. Being a parent with Te + Ni in one's ego results in the ability to extrapolate how shitty the world can be for their kids, and this gives them anxiety - resulting in an approach that can seem limiting and controlling to the kid, but only intends to protect them from the perspective of the parent. It's unfortunately a lot to unpack for someone not in Gamma quadra. I haven't fully figured out how to handle my mom, although she is the most loving person I know - but I do believe it's important to realize Gamma NTs care very deeply, so much so that their desire to protect their loved ones can cloud their ability to see when it's perhaps doing more harm than good.
    Yes, my Dad is quite anxious. He is into protection, and he cares a lot. Even though he has a weird way of showing it to most people. He needs to take a step back and see things for how they are.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche View Post
    "this is what I get for trying to be close to DEAD"

    Sounds like he made it pretty clear that he was trying to get closer to 'you'. Maybe he doesn't know how to be closer to you without getting on you? I guess this situation has come up before in different contexts and I think that you have an idea of how you can gain perspective. Have you ever told him what you would like him to change without being in a heated situation ? Maybe at first you or him will be losing temper but with time it can smooth out
    I need to have a real talk with him, but it’s hard because he’s so busy and because it would be a bit one-sided in regards to him, but I’m sure that if it was properly discussed then it would be possible to have a talk with him.

    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    Well he's your dad so he's always going to try to get close to you and get to know you probably. I have noticed sometimes though Fi valuers will get try to get super close and intimate with me and it has made me feel awkward despite having 4D Fi myself, I suppose because mine isn't 'valued.' Is he LIE? LIEs especially I've noticed can be really needy with wanting closeness- it's weird. They are often like cold hardened assholes in public but on a one on one situation they want like these warm Fi fuzzies. The juxtaposition of that is weird to me and trolls me. I haven't known how to respond to them and sometimes I've felt guilty because they seem so soft and nice with this, like a dog begging for Fi scraps or something. lol.

    Don't push him away completely- but I think you two need to find an activity you both like to do together where you can kind of bond together without it hurting your Fi polr.

    I remember I always sat by myself at lunch in middle school & high school. Ppl thought it was cuz I was bullied and didn't fit in but I think even if I was treated like royalty and had lots of friends- I'd probably prefer this. And one on one I'll probably push the person away if they get too Fi and needy.
    Yeah, he’s an LIE-Te (am pretty sure of this by now) and yeah, he is like that exactly. It’s weird for me, and I never really understood it. I think he craves it off my Mam, but since she’s ESE, I think he’s not getting enough of it from her.

    Yeah, I think watching TV might be it. Football (soccer) or a movie, something we can discuss without being “close close” if that makes sense?

    Yeah, same here. Being too needy is annoying.

  12. #12

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    @DEAD

    "I need to have a real talk with him, but it’s hard because he’s so busy and because it would be a bit one-sided in regards to him, but I’m sure that if it was properly discussed then it would be possible to have a talk with him."

    You can have a "proper" discussion and oftentimes words lead to more separation unless we get a better idea of where we come from

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    BandD's Avatar
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    I think I know what kalinoche is talking about...

    me and my mom once were fighting for the longest time. Just bickering and arguing over everything. But then one day she saw me for the first time I think because I also saw her for the first time. There was no words. It was like there as a shift. A real spiritual shift. We saw each other's True Selves instead of attacking with the ego. Because we started to feel compassion for one another... what was lacking. This is just... a real shift. I'm probably making it sound more saccharine or sweet then it really is- because I'm naturally a 'sweet' person- but it was more than that.

    Not sure how you get there. I'm not religious but I think "God" or "Spirit" or "source" whatever gets you both there when you are ready and you can't make it happen with the right words or trying to be nice because that can feel too much like manipulation and as kali said, words often just lead to more separation.

    In spiritual realms this moment is also called 'The Holy Instant' when both people become connected to each other genuinely through a higher power. You can in theory for example have this intense bitter and hatred conflict with somebody- like so evil and grimdark- but then you both suddenly 'get over it' and cry and hug each other when you have the moment of Holy Instant. ((str8 girls are so stereotypically lenient with bad boys a lot of the time, because they see this potential for the Holy Instant within them.)) It's not likely or probable, but that's why it's a miraculous blessing & feels so "big" when it does really happen.

    I realize- this is probably a Fi thing, which might make it more personally difficult for you -because yeah it is very Fi I think and obviously it never works on a 'grand Fe scale' because if it did, we would actually have world peace but that would be too boring/simplistic ((the dramatic realm of red is what holds white & black together)) and so for "cosmic balance reasons" - it only works in a Fi way unfortunately.

  14. #14

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    @BandD if you want to turn it more Ni maybe try on the "as above so below,as within so without" thing?

    Then again as long as it serves us to hold in our mind a world that works in this or that way then that is what we are going to do (I think)

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