Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
Oh, brother, what a perverterd idea. Very senseless. What are you doing with that good mind of yours?
Nothing but paying attention to the teaching of Jesus.

In 2 Timothy, Paul says of himself: "You are aware that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes..."

The term "Asia" referred to what's now called Asia Minor, or Anatolia; more or less the modern state of Turkey. One of the largest cities in Asia at the time of Paul's writing was the city of Ephesos (or Ephesus), to whom Paul had previously preached, hence his epistle to the Ephesians included in the Biblical canon.

In Revelation, Jesus has something interesting to say to the church at Ephesos: “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: ‘The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands.
“‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name's sake, and you have not grown weary. But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent..."


Two points here. First, now that the Ephesians (and the rest of Asia, apparently) have rejected Paul, Jesus now commends them for rejecting "those who call themselves apostles, and are not." This particular descriptor is pretty hard not to identify with Paul; Paul never knew Jesus during his life, and his only claim to apostleship was his own. There are two other pieces of evidence against Paul: firstly, after Judas dies, the 11 remaining apostles elect a 12th, Matthias -- apparently because they're under an impression there are meant to be only 12 apostles. Why would they have that impression? Presumably it was Jesus himself who gave them this impression. Another piece of evidence against Paul here is that at the end of Revelation, John makes this statement:

And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Again: John, as well as, apparently, the others who walked with Jesus, seem to think there are to be 12 apostles. Paul isn't one of them.

It's also worth noting that what Jesus doesn't say is "Good job on rejecting all those false apostles -- but you that guy, Paul, whom you rejected -- yeah, that guy was legit; you screwed up by rejecting him."

Another point worth noting is that Jesus is here explictly rejecting faith-based salvation. He acknowledges that they believe; his problem is that their works are insufficient, and he threatens them with the loss of their "lampstand" -- which I think is pretty safe to interpret as their place in the kingdom of heaven -- unless they shape up their works.

This isn't the only time, incidentally, that Jesus rejects faith-based salvation. Matthew 7:21:

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Can you be any more explicit? It's not enough to believe in Jesus; hell, Jesus doesn't even say you have to believe in him to be saved! The person who is saved is, by Jesus' own words, "the one who does the will of my Father." And Paul, who preaches that believers are "dead to the Law," and that the law given by Jesus' father doesn't apply to Christians, is surely a "worker of lawlessness."

I assume I don't need to prove to you that Pauline doctrine does preach the law doesn't apply to Christians, and that Christians are saved by faith-alone. So here's another passage from the supposed founder of your religion, in whom you don't believe:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Again, Jesus explictly stating it's righteousness, not abstract "belief" in his existence or something, that gets you into the kingdom of heaven. But also he says something interesting in the first bolded section: "whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven." Of course, Paul did teach people to loosen these commandments; would you believe that his name -- "Paulus" in Latin -- literally means "least?" This seems to me a like pretty clear prophecy.