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    https://advisor.morganstanley.com/th...fSHEconomy.pdf

    https://www.morganstanley.com/ideas/...on-the-economy

    Since we've had a lot of talk lately about MGTOW, I thought it would be interesting to discuss women's side of things. I was reading this report (the first link seems to be a shortened version of the full report, which I think costs quite a bit of money to get a digital copy of), which notes that an increasing number of women are choosing not to get married or have children: by 2030, this number should be almost half of all women in the States.

    This is one of the most significant demographic events in human history, so I'm rather surprised to see it hasn't been getting much attention. How do people feel about this? How does this tie into the increasing rates of inceldom and MGTOWery, given that half of women are just not interested in men? Is this a problem? If so, what should be done about it?

    Personally, I'm pretty worried by this: it seems there simply aren't enough women out there for all the interested men, and millions of sexually frustrated men seems like a powderkeg waiting to go off.

    Incidentally, I don't have data on how many men are choosing not to enter relationships, but it's my suspicion that number has also been rising. It's also my suspicion that that number is much lower than women's, and most men who aren't in relationships aren't in relationships because they can't find women, not because they aren't interested in relationships. I'd be curious to hear if anyone disagrees.
    Last edited by FreelancePoliceman; 06-10-2021 at 08:38 AM.
    φιλοκαλοῦμέν τε γὰρ μετ᾽ εὐτελείας καὶ φιλοσοφοῦμεν ἄνευ μαλακίας.

    It’s hard to translate this literally and poetically into English, but this is my attempt at a translation: “For we love beauty, that we attain good ends thereby, and we love wisdom, though not in a way that makes us soft, nor that causes us to value weakness.”

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    I'd love to offer the usual platitude that the next generation will fix our mess, but that would fly in the face of the premise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    I'd love to offer the usual platitude that the next generation will fix our mess, but that would fly in the face of the premise.
    Most Western countries seem to be inviting immigration to counteract declining birthrates (and also to keep down wages...), so there will be people in the West. Just not people the last generation of Westerners reared. That comes with its own problems, of course. If nothing else than that a country perpetually sustained only by people coming here, forming no human relationships with anyone except their employers, then dying alone only to be replaced by more in this arrangement seems like a horrifying image of the future. Global capitalism is systematically destroying every human bond there is and leaving nothing in its place but employment contracts. I don't think it's so farfetched to believe there will soon be more women with OnlyFans profiles than women in IRL sexual relationships.
    φιλοκαλοῦμέν τε γὰρ μετ᾽ εὐτελείας καὶ φιλοσοφοῦμεν ἄνευ μαλακίας.

    It’s hard to translate this literally and poetically into English, but this is my attempt at a translation: “For we love beauty, that we attain good ends thereby, and we love wisdom, though not in a way that makes us soft, nor that causes us to value weakness.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by one View Post
    The people around me in general don't want to marry anymore because life is hard, they see terrible news everyday, and some are still not recovering from financial losses. For some reason a lot of people my age are focused on buying nice things for themselves.
    That's interesting to me, because for virtually all of human history, life has been much harder, at least materially speaking, than it is now. People used to deal with death far more often, war, and far more drastic poverty than exists almost anywhere in the world today, yet have always formed families and had children during these times, even during generations of these kinds of conditions. What's so different about today? I have trouble believing it's just financial difficulty. Fearmongering by MSM might factor into things, but Twitter and cable news are enough to make half a sex swear off dating?

    In where I live it also seems like women take more household responsibility than men, which makes them think it's better to just focus all of those efforts at work where they will get acknowledgement and compensation.
    That's interesting. I honestly don't know how most couples divide household tasks and whatnot. Still, why not go searching for men who are OK with taking more household responsibility? It seems that women are just not dating entirely, and perhaps I'm just saying this because I'm a guy, but it seems unbelievable that fear of what a relationship might be like with an imaginary partner could kill your interest in the opposite sex to such an extent that you don't try to date them. Every girl I've ever met could be a lunatic and I'd still feel a drive to seek out and marry one. I would guess most men, at least, feel the same way.

    People still like relationships though, or at least have the tendency to seek them.
    But the tendency to actually form them is apparently declining.
    Last edited by FreelancePoliceman; 06-10-2021 at 04:53 AM.
    φιλοκαλοῦμέν τε γὰρ μετ᾽ εὐτελείας καὶ φιλοσοφοῦμεν ἄνευ μαλακίας.

    It’s hard to translate this literally and poetically into English, but this is my attempt at a translation: “For we love beauty, that we attain good ends thereby, and we love wisdom, though not in a way that makes us soft, nor that causes us to value weakness.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Most Western countries seem to be inviting immigration to counteract declining birthrates (and also to keep down wages...), so there will be people in the West. Just not people the last generation of Westerners reared. That comes with its own problems, of course. If nothing else than that a country perpetually sustained only by people coming here, forming no human relationships with anyone except their employers, then dying alone only to be replaced by more in this arrangement seems like a horrifying image of the future. Global capitalism is systematically destroying every human bond there is and leaving nothing in its place but employment contracts. I don't think it's so farfetched to believe there will soon be more women with OnlyFans profiles than women in IRL sexual relationships.
    WRT. employment contracts taking the place of real relationships: yes, this is sadly a real thing.

    I haven't fully worked out what I'm about to say; I'd need to think about it more than I have, I don't know if it's right (although I suspect that it is implicitly believed by many), and it may sound unnecessarily abstract and perhaps muddleheaded, but I believe that the problem extends from the fact that we've reduced complex human emotions into their more basic constituent parts: love is reduced to companionship, joy is reduced to pleasure, hatred is reduced to rivalry, and so on. This reification has stripped emotions of their transcendent qualities, which has had the effect of making them finite, measurable, and classifiable. And anything that's finite and graspable is also commodifiable.

    Capitalism has transformed the person's soul into a commodity. Conservatives want to keep capitalism while plastering it with religion in order to parcel out that lost sense of the sublime, but I believe (in fact, it's a commonly held view) that religion will only ever be a fig leaf, one that is increasingly hollowed out by the same forces that it intends to supplement.

    I would, however, hesitate to put all the blame on "late-stage capitalism" as opposed to industrialism in general. It is a great regret that we don't have the chance to cross-reference theories like these with the culture of late-stage Soviet communism.

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    Before someone suggests that the commodification of women's labour is the consequence of feminism, I would suggest that the causation works in reverse: that modern feminism has been shaped accordingly by capitalism.

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    FUck the world

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    https://advisor.morganstanley.com/th...fSHEconomy.pdf

    https://www.morganstanley.com/ideas/...on-the-economy

    Since we've had a lot of talk lately about MGTOW, I thought it would be interesting to discuss women's side of things. I was reading this report, which notes that an increasing number of women are choosing not to get married or have children: by 2030, this number should be almost half of all women in the States.

    This is one of the most significant demographic events in human history, so I'm rather surprised to see it hasn't been getting much attention. How do people feel about this? How does this tie into the increasing rates of inceldom and MGTOWery, given that half of women are just not interested in men? Is this a problem? If so, what should be done about it?

    Personally, I'm pretty worried by this: it seems there simply aren't enough women out there for all the interested men, and millions of sexually frustrated men seems like a powderkeg waiting to go off.
    The report says that 41% of women in 2018 were were single. They project that number will be 45% in 2030. I think this trend is being driven by more women delaying marriage and children in favor of getting and education and focusing on their careers. It’s an interesting demographic trend, but calling it one of the most significant demographic events in human history is an exaggeration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    I would hesitate to put all the blame on "late-stage capitalism" as opposed to industrialism in general. It is a great regret that we don't have the chance to cross-reference theories like these with the culture of late-stage Soviet communism.
    Soviet "communism" was nothing but social democracy. It can be called "communism" if people insist, but nothing about its economic model wasn't capitalist. Yes, it was a "planned economy;" so is Amazon; so is Walmart; companies like these exert unbelievable control over national economies. Whether or not planning is done by politicians or by stockholders doesn't fundamentally change the workings of the system. Both Soviets and Americans had interest in pretending the USSR's "socialism" represented a radical break from capitalism: the USSR to justify its own existence, and the U.S. to justify the Cold War. A more accurate picture of things is that the Soviets established capitalism in a largely pre-capitalist country. It shouldn't be surprising to find they had similar problems as more Western countries.

    I haven't fully worked out what I'm about to say; I'd need to think about it more than I have, I don't know if it's right (although I suspect that it is implicitly believed by many), and it may sound unnecessarily abstract and perhaps muddleheaded, but I believe that the problem extends from the fact that we've reduced complex human emotions into their more basic constituent parts: love is reduced to companionship, joy is reduced to pleasure, hatred is reduced to rivalry, and so on. This reification has stripped emotions of their transcendent qualities, which has had the effect of making them finite, measurable, and classifiable. And anything that's finite and graspable is also commodifiable.
    Yeah, I generally agree. I initially wrote a paragraph or so in response to this in disagreement but realized I was just splitting hairs. Anyway, I suspect much of this is linked to pop culture, which tries to package and sell mass-produced elements of the human experience for the mass market. I've been thinking a lot about why it bothers me so much to listen to pop music on the radio, or to watch trailers for generic movies and TV shows. It's as if...well, no, more that it really happens that executives say: "OK, we've found a catchy tune. Love songs sell; let's get someone writing lyrics about love." Or "OK, we have a premise for a drama. Now we just need to figure out who the protagonist will fall in love with during their hour and a half of screentime." Expressions of the emotions you mentioned just get shoehorned into media without any regard to their presentation, because the idea is just that they should "be there," not that their presence should be believable or speak to any meaningful fragment of human experience. I don't believe there's anything inherently unartistic about pop music, but there's a reason every pop song about "love" sounds like it's actually about either the singer's horniness or addiction to coke, and it's because expressions of simple feelings like horniness or addiction don't require complex thought in order to be conveyed. And when every portrayal of emotion out there is like this, depicting this "bastardized" notion of it, it's inevitable it'll lead to a certain emotional insensitivity or confusion of baser feelings with more complex ones, inhibiting the formation of those complex feelings to begin with in people exposed to that kind of media.

    Capitalism has transformed the person's soul into a commodity. Conservatives want to keep capitalism while plastering it with religion in order to parcel out that lost sense of the sublime, but I believe (in fact, it's a commonly held view) that religion will only ever be a fig leaf, one that is increasingly hollowed out by the same forces that it intends to supplement.
    Organized religion has always been a stain on human history. Its sudden resurgence isn't something to be desired, I think.

    I used to read some of Ali Shariati's writing, and I had a naive hope that Islam would be able to mount some kind of defense against capitalism where Christianity had failed.



    Given the picture of Mecca above, that seems pretty unlikely, but perhaps it's for the best that religions are dying wherever capitalism's taken root.
    φιλοκαλοῦμέν τε γὰρ μετ᾽ εὐτελείας καὶ φιλοσοφοῦμεν ἄνευ μαλακίας.

    It’s hard to translate this literally and poetically into English, but this is my attempt at a translation: “For we love beauty, that we attain good ends thereby, and we love wisdom, though not in a way that makes us soft, nor that causes us to value weakness.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poptart View Post
    The report says that 41% of women in 2018 were were single. They project that number will be 45% in 2030. I think this trend is being driven by more women delaying marriage and children in favor of getting and education and focusing on their careers. It’s an interesting demographic trend, but calling it one of the most significant demographic events in human history is an exaggeration.
    Just because it's high now doesn't mean its current high level isn't significant! I said 2030 because they'd already done the math for that year, and I was too lazy to figure out myself when levels would reach 50% exactly.

    Anyway though, I'd be really surprised if you could point to any other period in history where 40% or more of women just decided not to marry or have children. Of course, that often wasn't their decision to make; still, this seems pretty unprecedented.
    φιλοκαλοῦμέν τε γὰρ μετ᾽ εὐτελείας καὶ φιλοσοφοῦμεν ἄνευ μαλακίας.

    It’s hard to translate this literally and poetically into English, but this is my attempt at a translation: “For we love beauty, that we attain good ends thereby, and we love wisdom, though not in a way that makes us soft, nor that causes us to value weakness.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Just because it's high now doesn't mean its current high level isn't significant! I said 2030 because they'd already done the math for that year, and I was too lazy to figure out myself when levels would reach 50% exactly.

    Anyway though, I'd be really surprised if you could point to any other period in history where 40% or more of women just decided not to marry or have children. Of course, that often wasn't their decision to make; still, this seems pretty unprecedented.
    Your links say “45% of working age women will be single”. This is much different from “have decided to never marry or have children”.

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    The following is just my perspective on the matter, which I hope is useful and does not miss the point?

    I'm about to start a night class to learn a new skill that could improve my estimation of myself, which seems key to resolving an anxious attachment style that has wrecked my previous relationships. Becoming more secure may make me more approachable to other people who are secure, or working toward becoming secure.

    My thinking is if I join a hobby group/club, I may meet people with similar ideals to mine and that, to me, is a head-start for dating.

    I am saving as much as I can from my work with a vision in mind of a future (admittedly idealised) life with somebody. When I turned 30 my mindset took a 180 and suddenly the idea of raising children did not seem as far fetched or imposing - but I must have stable foundations to do so.

    The above is in need of a reality-check as it's likely I will rent for life and never own my own home. Partly due to my lack of qualifications (therefore wage I can hope to earn without taking out time/loan for further study) and importantly the self development it will take for me to be less "self" focused and have the mental energy both to uncritically love myself and extend far beyond that. The second point is a crucial one, and I wonder whether others resonate with that when they do pause before dating.

    Essentially, I must improve myself and my opportunities before I can even think about committing to someone.
    If I don't improve my estimation of myself I will only draw in the negative partners of my past, as I see it. I'm scared of growing too old, undesirable, of running out of time to take risks.

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    I mean, why is it a bad thing? The world is vastly overpopulated and I don't think a declining population or people choosing not get into relationships is a bad thing. You can still have a quality life without relationships or marriage.

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    A declining birth rate means we can let more immigrants in. Win-win?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Soviet "communism" was nothing but social democracy. It can be called "communism" if people insist, but nothing about its economic model wasn't capitalist. Yes, it was a "planned economy;" so is Amazon; so is Walmart; companies like these exert unbelievable control over national economies. Whether or not planning is done by politicians or by stockholders doesn't fundamentally change the workings of the system. Both Soviets and Americans had interest in pretending the USSR's "socialism" represented a radical break from capitalism: the USSR to justify its own existence, and the U.S. to justify the Cold War. A more accurate picture of things is that the Soviets established capitalism in a largely pre-capitalist country. It shouldn't be surprising to find they had similar problems as more Western countries.



    Yeah, I generally agree. I initially wrote a paragraph or so in response to this in disagreement but realized I was just splitting hairs. Anyway, I suspect much of this is linked to pop culture, which tries to package and sell mass-produced elements of the human experience for the mass market. I've been thinking a lot about why it bothers me so much to listen to pop music on the radio, or to watch trailers for generic movies and TV shows. It's as if...well, no, more that it really happens that executives say: "OK, we've found a catchy tune. Love songs sell; let's get someone writing lyrics about love." Or "OK, we have a premise for a drama. Now we just need to figure out who the protagonist will fall in love with during their hour and a half of screentime." Expressions of the emotions you mentioned just get shoehorned into media without any regard to their presentation, because the idea is just that they should "be there," not that their presence should be believable or speak to any meaningful fragment of human experience. I don't believe there's anything inherently unartistic about pop music, but there's a reason every pop song about "love" sounds like it's actually about either the singer's horniness or addiction to coke, and it's because expressions of simple feelings like horniness or addiction don't require complex thought in order to be conveyed. And when every portrayal of emotion out there is like this, depicting this "bastardized" notion of it, it's inevitable it'll lead to a certain emotional insensitivity or confusion of baser feelings with more complex ones, inhibiting the formation of those complex feelings to begin with in people exposed to that kind of media.

    Organized religion has always been a stain on human history. Its sudden resurgence isn't something to be desired, I think.

    I used to read some of Ali Shariati's writing, and I had a naive hope that Islam would be able to mount some kind of defense against capitalism where Christianity had failed.



    Given the picture of Mecca above, that seems pretty unlikely, but perhaps it's for the best that religions are dying wherever capitalism's taken root.
    WRT. Islam, that's thanks to Saudi Arabia's influence. But Middle Eastern geopolitics is in flux, and Saudi Arabia is on the decline. Check back in a few decades...

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    God dammit this MGTOW/WGTOW stuff is full of antiquated gender binary mindset!
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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    WRT. Islam, that's thanks to Saudi Arabia's influence. But Middle Eastern geopolitics is in flux, and Saudi Arabia is on the decline. Check back in a few decades...
    I mean, outside the middle east, is there anywhere there’s any significant resistance to economic modernization? You could maybe argue Afghanistan and some militant groups in Africa, but anywhere more economically developed? I don’t really see Pakistan, India, Indonesia, Malaysia as hubs of any significant Islamic anti-capitalist pressure.
    Last edited by FreelancePoliceman; 06-10-2021 at 05:55 PM.
    φιλοκαλοῦμέν τε γὰρ μετ᾽ εὐτελείας καὶ φιλοσοφοῦμεν ἄνευ μαλακίας.

    It’s hard to translate this literally and poetically into English, but this is my attempt at a translation: “For we love beauty, that we attain good ends thereby, and we love wisdom, though not in a way that makes us soft, nor that causes us to value weakness.”

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    Seems like MGTOW and WGTOW would have a lot in common and then get under the mistletoe and kiss

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    I haven't read the report in the OP but it seems to be saying that in 2030, 45% of working women will be single, not that they refuse to marry or have children. I only read the headline though.

    But yeah, economics IMO is the major factor why Westerners will no longer marry or have kids, those things are simply too expensive, salaries are not rising much with regards to cost of living, and things do not look like they will get better at this rate.

    People nowadays don't seem disinterested in relationships though, but those things lack purpose and direction in the absence of economic opportunities.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    I haven't read the report in the OP but it seems to be saying that in 2030, 45% of working women will be single, not that they refuse to marry or have children. I only read the headline though.

    But yeah, economics IMO is the major factor why Westerners will no longer marry or have kids, those things are simply too expensive, salaries are not rising much with regards to cost of living, and things do not look like they will get better at this rate.
    Yeah, sorry. I was basing this more on what I remember of the full report, but haven’t been able to find it online.

    @Adam Strange, since I know you have a financial advisor, would you be willing to see if you have access to the full report through them and pirate it for us? I understand that’s how most people see it. シ
    φιλοκαλοῦμέν τε γὰρ μετ᾽ εὐτελείας καὶ φιλοσοφοῦμεν ἄνευ μαλακίας.

    It’s hard to translate this literally and poetically into English, but this is my attempt at a translation: “For we love beauty, that we attain good ends thereby, and we love wisdom, though not in a way that makes us soft, nor that causes us to value weakness.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Yeah, sorry. I was basing this more on what I remember of the full report, but haven’t been able to find it online.

    @Adam Strange, since I know you have a financial advisor, would you be willing to see if you have access to the full report through them and pirate it for us? I understand that’s how most people see it. シ
    This report is using publicly available data from US census bureau. As far as I know, the census bureau doesn’t survey women on their future plans for getting married or starting a family. I doubt the full report contains any information on this (unless Morgan Stanley conducted their own survey to obtain this data, in which case we would have to question their methodology).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    I haven't read the report in the OP but it seems to be saying that in 2030, 45% of working women will be single, not that they refuse to marry or have children. I only read the headline though.

    But yeah, economics IMO is the major factor why Westerners will no longer marry or have kids, those things are simply too expensive, salaries are not rising much with regards to cost of living, and things do not look like they will get better at this rate.

    People nowadays don't seem disinterested in relationships though, but those things lack purpose and direction in the absence of economic opportunities.
    Possibly. According to this anyway, marriage rates have fallen hardest among the lower and middle classes, whereas the upper class gets married more and stays married. The article suggests that this may be more than a symptom of inequality, but is, in fact, also deepening it.
    Last edited by xerx; 06-11-2021 at 12:35 AM.

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