MGTOW has been gathering steam lately. We should talk about it.
MGTOW
MGTOW has been gathering steam lately. We should talk about it.
I've actually known about it since ~2011, when I used to look for obscure online content, such as Youtube channels with 10 or so subscribers. I left it alone until now but wasn't surprised to see it explode in popularity. The perception of mistrust and suspicion between the sexes, the feeling that everyone is on their own, the perceived lack of importance (of men), and the desire to drop out of society, are all very common.
For what it's worth, certain aspects of it, like the desire for self-sufficiency, being financially independent, and not performing one's traditional gender roles, are all in keeping with the spirit of modern individualism.
Last edited by xerx; 05-19-2021 at 03:05 AM. Reason: slight reword
okay women are sometimes mocked in the media for their fantasies, like the Supernatural episode with Becky Rosen that I like. But objectively that episode got horrible reviews and the Te society people didn't like it.
I don't know why- it was one of the better episodes and it was my favorite lol.
Originally Posted by xerx
Confession: I was totally on board with all of that jazz until I learned of the existence of attachment issues. Calling women "Bitches" was a disservice to actual bitches because at least female dogs are loyal and these crazy hoes/sluts/etc. ain't. Plus at least females know who their kids are whereas only modern tech has enabled men to discern with absolute certainty if they really are the father of that ho's baby.
Now that I know what attachment issues are, what they imply, and why they occur, well, let's just say my eyes are opened. Sluts are sluts because that's the easiest and perhaps only way they see that they will ever earn male (or hell any form of) approval from others. Broken men value them and indulge because they think casual sex=acceptance/love. Yeah, but both sides think that way because both sides are fundamentally broken and are seeking substitutes for what ought to have been there from the beginning. A father and mother who lack attachment issues and who honestly and completely loved themselves, each other, and their children. Seeing that healthy and dare I say "Divinely Ordained" order would have made things so much easier for either sex.
Sadly, that is not the case in this modern hellscape. Everyone is desperately seeking approval from others in one form or another yet is deathly afraid of being "honest" with someone else because that opens them up to the worst case scenario. That they'll all see who they "truly" are and reject them because they're a monster deserving of death in the most painful and slowest of ways.
This is not true, but I'm also operating on minimal sleep and crappy food. Will expand upon this if and when I get a request to do so.
Well realistically speaking I don't think anybody can really completely 'go their own way.' That way leads to complete death and destruction. I mean- which is inevitable anyway but society is built on the notion of interdependence. Anybody who really 'goes their own way' gets punished completely by the Idea of Justice.
What it really seems to be is hatred and contempt for women that date hot alpha Chads that work in some seedy ghetto bar and not their beta male white-collar engineer ass. So let's confront that thing head on.
This is connected to many things in society. It's a combined aspect of what women naturally like and what the mainstream culture icon says women should like. Things like fifty shades of gray give straight women the false hope that they can have this perfect life with a hot domineering Chad that's also a caring family man underneathe it all and has a 'good heart.' Sometimes it works for some women- but more realistically it really doesn't and they are just hurt. The alternate shadow reality of MEN GOING THEIR OWN way is women never leaving you the hell alone because they are essentially pissed off & unaccepting that Fifty Shades of Gray is a *fantasy.*
Weebie nerdy men are always laughed at and mocked in society for not fully understanding or respecting the difference between fantasy and reality- but it's a problem that doesn't really have a gender. Just more of society's hurtful heteronormative double standards like it's okay for a man to be a "slut" but it's not okay for a woman.
I think gay men are better than straight women in the small aspect of when we see a perfectly chiseled and tall Chad across the street with an amazing jawline and 8 inch you know what- we definitely will lust after that guy but we tend to not get our hearts involved too as we know how stupid that would be. ((in no way in hell are gay men generally better than str8 girls- but in this one area- we usually have them beat.)) "typical lust-filled deranged homo that only cares about sex" Well, at least I'm protecting my heart from being fucked over by a douche just because he's hot.
Yet str8 women often have the Fifty Shades of Gray fantasy and they want hot sex with him but they also want him to be a family man. if it does work out like that- they do tend to live happily ever after die peacefully like a satisfied suburban sally. If it doesn't work out- it's rather shitty. And what did they say on Game of Tryhards? Reality is either boring, depressing or terrifying- and well, it's usually true.
I understand women have all sorts of 'types' they enjoy- but the MGTOW thing seems intrinsically connected to this sort of thing, and that's what the topic is about.
So then they often move on to the next Chad thinking that one will work out- and that doesn't either for a lot of them. sometimes it's because the woman herself won't change her shitty behaviors and viewpoints either. There are only so many Chads compared to Beta Males though and they essentially get picked over by other Staceys. So a lot of women go their own way too - even if it doesn't get put in a Ti pretty ribbon.
Now back to the men. Like those beta male dudes will ever 'go their own way' once Stacy re-shows interest in them after it doesn't work out with the Chads she wants. As Chris Rock says 'women always have to date Ike before they date Mike.' So Mike isn't 'going his own way' - he's just waiting his own turn.
do u mind explaining a little? im unclear exactly what they're about. only avoiding relationships but not sex, right? hypothetically.
i dont know anything about the truth of the 80% of women and 20% of chad men stuff i've heard. but i know if i'm giving it up to chads they're pretty far from the guy at the gym they're imagining.
It's about avoiding or "giving up" both sex and relationships. Either because they believe that no women will ever be attracted to them, or because women are more trouble than it's worth. There's also probably the conspiracy theory that the world is ruled by feminists, and the world overall works in favor against men.
I once heard it in and I am not familiar with it. But generally on the gender issue I think the problem is that many don't know what to expect from the partner and how to find a partner. I think probably they should learn Socionics.
Of course certain type of men are more welcomed by women but everyone has its quadra and club. For instance I am definitely not a "chad" but there are sapiosexual women who are interested in me.
Last edited by CR400AF; 05-19-2021 at 09:57 AM.
For a group that supposedly values autonomy and personal responsibility, Mgtows sure love playing the victim and blaming other people for all of their problems.
If a man feels burdened by the responsibilities of getting married and having children, then he should stay single forever. Like seriously, who cares lol. What’s troubling about mgtows is their hatred of women and attitude of male supremacy.
@ashlesha mgtow.com has a good About section and FAQ page if you want a quick summary of what they’re all about.
When I was in grade school, back when Pterodactyls ruled the skies, we learned a fable by this guy named Aesop, called "Sour Grapes".
Seems like it might apply to the MGTOW crew.
@FreelancePoliceman Are men self interested? Or is it just women?
@ashlesha
Many men are. But many men are also moved by irrational passion in these matters; I don't think passion is something women experience, though I'd like to hear women's response to this. Women generally maintain a better sense of control of themselves and don't give themselves over to their emotions so fully. I believe it's this realization that burns MGTOWs. They see women (successfully) acting in their own self-interest and compare this with their own uncontrollable (or very difficult to control) attraction to women and conclude that women are unfeeling manipulative bitches.
Adam, even if we grant that they're embittered single men, isn't it unusual for there to be this many? If MGTOW isn't just a mirage caused by social media's ability to amplify random grievances, and if this is a genuine mass phenomenon, then there has got to be a systemic explanation.
I don't think there's much "solution" to this other than to simply say "work harder" to attract women. And if you can't attract any women, then perhaps it's better to simply stay single, and invest in friends or hobbies or volunteering and what not.
Women have their own "logic" in whom they find attractive, just like men do. You may find that to be fair or unfair. But it's futile to try to change and control who people find attractive.
Anyway, it's their own fault for succumbing to cynicism and nihilism by bringing down "SJWs" and "white knighting" and "simps" so on. Men themselves have made men more pathetic, valueless and therefore as a result are becoming even more unattractive.
It may not be that easy to "work harder to attract women". This won't sound very politically correct, but women tend not to want less educated and less successful men as long-term partners. Whether this is by nature or by nurture, it's not changing any time soon.
Yet, not only are the majority of post-secondary students women now, but women are beginning to outpace men in terms of salary. This phenomenon isn't isolated to the feminist West either. Women are better educated than men in the Islamic Republic of Iran (seriously). Women are either equal or outnumber men in most of the Middle East, including that abyss of reactionary Islamism known as Saudi Arabia.
For whatever reason, women are better able to navigate modern work and education. One theory put forward is that women are simply better at passive learning, which revolves around sitting down quietly and taking notes.
Putting aside the misogyny, there is something substantial being carried along by this movement. We may see it reflected in the compositions of future electorates.
Last edited by xerx; 05-20-2021 at 07:04 AM. Reason: reword
Well actually, I think the problem is "intellectualizing" emotional hurts, making a philosophy out of it and then spreading as memes on the internet. It's natural to feel hurt when people don't find you unattractive. But if you don't handle and process that emotion properly, then you're bound to blame others for the hurt that you're feeling, which men are more likely to do than women. That's probably why men go on shooting sprees and women don't.
There are some "crazy" women that poorly handle emotions and don't have the ability to process them in healthy ways. They may stalk men that reject them or threaten to kill them or verbally abuse them or something. But those women are relatively rare.
I think the problem has mainly to do with how poorly men in general handle and process emotions, and not giving themselves the emotional support that they need.
This too is a problem that springs from attachment issues. For the "detached" (i.e. those who have attachment issues) they actually intensely love others, but they also fundamentally believe that their feelings aren't worthy of reciprocation.
I've said it before but I'll say it again, we're more "animalistic" than we'd like to believe. If mommy divorced daddy when you were three you didn't have the mental capacity to grasp the variables that could have been in play (i.e. say she divorced him for very justifiable reasons like cheating or abuse) . You only knew that a rather significant guarantor of your survival up and disappeared and that it was almost certainly your fault.
No, this is not true. Yes, it makes absolutely no logical sense. Yet your subconscious/animal brain operates on the criteria that yes that is true and it makes total logical sense and, sadly as I've also pointed out, that "animal brain" has priority in regards to our cognition. The emotional centers of the mind activate first, and then the logical/rational centers do. That means, again as I've said before, that we "feel" first and then "justify/rationalize" those feelings with our logic. Perhaps some brains operate differently, like if we got a really, really, really autistic person than maybe that might not be true. But that's just a personal potential thought experiment.
Like I said, the slut sleeps around because she sees herself as fundamentally unlovable as a person but she does know that most any man will act in a positive manner towards her if she but spreads her legs and accepts his cum/acts like she's sexually interested in him. At least she won't be abandoned so long as she puts out. If and only if she puts out. Broken men (i.e. a large quantity of the MGTOW crowd) often come to the opposite coping strategy with attachment issues (one I admit I came to for a time).
Nobody will ever truly love them. Well then fine! Fuck em'! I don't need them to survive anyway! Hell, don't even need my direct family if I'm being honest. They'll probably abandon me anyway. Too bad for those fuckers a man really can be an island. Fire. Weapons. Calories. Survival is a science that can be mastered by a single individual within this atmosphere and on this planet and on a rather shoestring budget to boot! Those fools will all die when the end comes. But not me. No. I will survive without others if only to spite the fucks who hate me. They all hate me. (Why? I just want someone, just one other person to like me for being who I am...)
I hit "fuck it" shortly afterward and decided to just be honest because after all, dying alone would suck and why postpone the inevitable anyway? Yeah, you'll probably get betrayed and hated but after all that was gonna happen anyway so, again, why postpone the inevitable? Hell, maybe I'm wrong and people aren't really as bad as I assume them to be. A man can dream right? You never know until you try and being a fearful/hateful little bitch ain't very metal and as I love Heavy Metal I ought to try to be at least a little metal eh?
Pretty much all the malaise and miasma that surrounds modern existence stems from attachment issues. Issues that would have been handily avoided if everyone had followed the examples set forth by Jesus, Mary, and Joseph. If people had such a healthy and loving family growing up there would be scant few MGTOW's, porn stars, sluts, and other "degenerates" as it were.
Now consider how Pop Culture here in the West looks down upon full time mothers and loving fathers. Try getting a movie or TV show featuring those archetypes made. You won't, because the PTB don't want that. Healthy people with secure attachment styles aren't easy to manipulate and control. Broken people though? Sluts, Danger Haired Feminists, SJW's, pick-up artists, MGTOW's, etc? Damned easy to control. Note, again, you can't really create such broken people within a civilization and culture that accepts Jesus. Hence why Christianity is the foremost religion denigrated and hated by the PTB. Make no mistake though, they hate the others just as much, but the others are easier to "deal with" given their end goals and mindset. One works their way down a "threat stack" from the top down if they're being logical. Food for thought...
Last edited by End; 05-20-2021 at 05:29 AM.
Lots is wrong with modern dating, and modern life is making everyone increasingly hostile. I think MGTOWs are largely right that women in the dating market are self-interested and hypergamous, though it’s more useful to see this as a consequence of modern social conditions rather than as something immutable about women’s nature. So it’s understandable that many men would give up and develop a general dislike for women.
i cant imagine that an argument for women being self-interested in comparison to men by nature could possibly be supported.
ive thought about hypergamy wrt to the fact that my "yes" circle is aggravatingly small in comparison to my loneliness, which is a hindrance, not a character flaw, unless i'm missing something.
I didn't see this up above. Hypergamy refers to a tendency for women to try to marry (and date) above them. They also think women are inclined to cheat with these types of men, though they're eventually willing to marry what they can get.
Last edited by FreelancePoliceman; 05-20-2021 at 03:08 AM.
dating above is what i meant wrt my circle of potentials being smaller than i would like it to be lol. i buy that, but i think it hurts me as much as those other guys.
cheating, eh, just don't see it, even when women cheat (isnt it statistically less often than men?) i dont see them going after chads lolll. i wanna see stats on the types of guys women cheat with along with debates over the definition of chadness
What if the guy hits six figures AND he stabs a guy in the neck?
We need to ask Snoop Dogg and O.J. how they're doing with the ladies.
That sounds like it would make LIEs the most sexually successful type.
Also-
“A penny saved is a woman fired.”
I’m confused—do they want women to work or not? If these men don’t want to financially support women, then maybe it would be more beneficial to allow us to work? Just saying.
From mgtow.com:
”If MGTOW is fire, then perhaps feminism is gasoline.”
I don't know too much about it, but when I was reading the reddit years ago I thought it seemed like there was a lot of variation within the group on how incel-y it got
Yeah, and some of it is straight up social conservatism / Trump support / etc.
Statistics indicate that women are more likely to have short term sexual flings with uncaring, very masculine males, but tend to marry guys who are less likely to cheat on them.
Does MGTOW rhyme with big toe? Or is it pronounced mig-tao?
I'm getting tired + drunk, so I'm losing track of my thoughts, but I'll do my best. Essentially, when you note a problem, trying to explain its cause by resorting to biological explanations doesn't lead you anywhere except to justify the existence of that problem. It may be the case that women are biologically inclined to hypergamy, but if that's your explanation for why this phenomenon is occurring then your conclusion must be that present conditions were inevitable and nothing can be done to change them; the only rational responses would be MGTOW or redpill/pickup artistry, hence why MGTOW use these kinds of biological explanations. Similarly if you ask "why am I so miserable," a Catholic might answer "humans are born evil"; this leads to the conclusion that nothing short of divine intervention can fix this problem, hence the need for the church and Catholics' relative attitude of passivity (as opposed to evangelicals for instance who are too stupid and uninterested to develop a comprehensive world-view). A response like "human nature" is virtually always true (at least in some respects), but it paralyzes any ideas of change, and tends to discourage consideration of why conditions may once have been different, or what might cause them to change.
Well suppose that's true, but what can be done about it? It seems like most women would rather be single than be with someone that they don't like. I don't think there's going to be any solution other than to make themselves more attractive to women, somehow. We can't force women to be attracted to certain kinds of men, just because they're angry or something.
We really can't blame the other person for not being attracted to us, as that's ridiculous. I mean yes, it does hurt, but that hurt needs to be processed and expressed in healthy ways without blaming others, without intellectualizing or rationalizing, which these men are failing to do. What they need is better emotional training.
We can’t make women more like men want them to be, so we should make men more like women want them to be? I notice how it always seems to be men’s responsibility to change.
If women weren't what men want them to be, then men wouldn't be attracted to them.
Still, "lowering the standards of men" isn't going to be helping anyone, as it would only lower the value of men and make them more unattractive in the end.
Well, there's no turning back the clock on women's liberation. Even if we wanted to (I most certainly don't), feminism is too strong. I mean, it's stronger than reactionary Islam, and reactionary Islam is strong enough to melt steel beams.
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