SEE & being a "serious" Gamma

[Fluffy Princess Unicorn]

In principle I agree with you on this. What I understand from @Lady Lunacik, though, is that this was a very special situation. Lady Lunacik was friends with the ILI, who then started dating a SEE. This SEE harboured a dislike, possibly even jealousy, against Lady Lunacik. Out of this animosity the SEE turned her boyfriend away from Lady Lunacik. This would mean that the SEE initiated the manipulation.
Lady Lunacik then reacted to this by explaining to her ILI friend how the the SEE he was dating was manipulating him. To me this doesn't sound like Lady Lunacik was manipulating her ILI friend, instead she was exposing the SEE's envy and intrigue to the ILI. If someone was intentionally slandering my good name and setting up my friends against me, then I would deem exposing their ploy to be justified self-defence from my end.

Not really what happened, but I appreciate your efforts to at least understand my side despite disagreeing overall.

I do see it as you said, in part, though: self-defense...despite what happened being different than what you described.

My thing is simply...I have my own autonomous voice, too. I'm entitled to my views just as much as anyone else is. It's stupid to be unable to voice them with concern for someone else without being deemed manipulative, when all someone would have to do is speak up like "ok, well, i understand, but i still disagree, but thanks anyway"

what exactly is so hard about this? lol just assert yourself and you will realize you arent being ran over

[Ave]

Not really what happened, but I appreciate your efforts to at least understand my side despite disagreeing overall.

I do see it as you said, in part, though: self-defense...despite what happened being different than what you described.

My thing is simply...I have my own autonomous voice, too. I'm entitled to my views just as much as anyone else is. It's stupid to be unable to voice them with concern for someone else without being deemed manipulative, when all someone would have to do is speak up like "ok, well, i understand, but i still disagree, but thanks anyway"

what exactly is so hard about this? lol just assert yourself and you will realize you arent being ran over

Well, of course you can voice your own opinion. Which is what I'm doing too: voicing my opinion. And you seem to have a problem with it.

But if it is self-defense, then it is not "just" information, and if it's "just" information, then it isn't self-defense.

[Armitage]

I do see it as you said, in part, though: self-defense...despite what happened being different than what you described.

I feel you that when you care for someone, you want to warn them for any trouble on their path. And that you especially want to warn them when they are being set up against you. I would do the same.
If it doesn't run too much into your private affairs, what parts did I get wrong?

[Armitage]

2) It is using the ILI as a way to enact revenge/self-defense against the SEE.

I agree with everything you just said, except this. I don't see it as revenge, and I don't think that @Lady Lunacik acted with that intent either. Would you perhaps be willing to explain what makes it seem as revenge to you?

[Ave]

I agree with everything you just said, except this. I don't see it as revenge, and I don't think that @Lady Lunacik acted with that intent either. Would you perhaps be willing to explain what makes it seem as revenge to you?

I don't know that she did, I was responding to what you said above:

If someone was intentionally slandering my good name and setting up my friends against me, then I would deem exposing their ploy to be justified self-defence from my end.

I suppose that doesn't mean revenge.

It's fine, to do what you said there, ie to say hey, "I disagree with what is being said about me, but you guys can believe what you want". Not sure what that is likely to accomplish in reality, as people allow themselves to be manipulated and aeren't objects to set up against someone like you would set up a gunnery turret to target an enemy lol.

But you are right that self-defense does not imply revenge, I misspoke there by making them to be the same in this scenario.

[Fluffy Princess Unicorn]

Oh I have nothing against self-defense.

But in this case, trying to "inform" the ILI that the SEE he is dating is manipulative isn't any less manipulative, especially if 1) it implies that the ILI will have to ultimately "choose" between Lady Lunacik and the SEE, which, when you think about it, he will have to do at some point. 2) It is using the ILI as a way to enact revenge/self-defense against the SEE.

So the term "inform" isn't right to use here, it's an opinion, not information, and thus it's hardly something that helps the ILI see the full picture, it could just as easily twist the picture he has of the situation for the reasons I mentioned.

If you want to get someone back for something they did to you, you egg their car or something. That said, I don't think the ILI is any less guilty. It would be ridiculous to think otherwise.

I've been in many such situations and it's quiet a horrible spot to be in, to be honest I would feel more sympathy for Lady Lunacik if she wasn't calling me names like idiot and becoming aggressive.

For the record, this is spiraling out of control. Things are being spoken on that did not actually happen, that was just armitage's guess as to what happened. I was intentionally vague about details.

I do not think the SEE is being manipulative and I never said they were. I think the influence is being done in a different, less malicious way. It has more to do with an aspect of ILIs personality...one they are aware of, and have shared that they fear/dislike in themselves.

I never made anyone choose between myself and someone else, I never told them the SEE was manipulative (I also dont think they are). ILI spoke to me about SEE for advice before, and I was neutral until they shared certain traits of SEE, then I said I thought it was a bad idea. I was asked for that input, and I said "imo" and respected his choice regardless.

I also am not vengeful that way. I don't get back at people, especially not for petty shit like that.

You're right that I was aggressive though, and this while being aware I was getting out of hand, yet still being impulsive and caught up in my emotions. That, I fully take responsibility for, and I apologize. That part is true, I was wrong for that.

[Ave]

For the record, this is spiraling out of control. Things are being spoken on that did not actually happen, that was just armitage's guess as to what happened. I was intentionally vague about details.

I do not think the SEE is being manipulative and I never said they were. I think the influence is being done in a different, less malicious way. It has more to do with an aspect of ILIs personality...one they are aware of, and have shared that they fear/dislike in themselves.

I never made anyone choose between myself and someone else, I never told them the SEE was manipulative (I also dont think they are).

I also am not vengeful that way. I don't get back at people, especially not for petty shit like that.

You're right that I was aggressive though, and this while being aware I was getting out of hand, yet still being impulsive and caught up in my emotions. That, I fully take responsibility for, and I apologize. That part is true, I was wrong for that.

Alright I understand, and thank you for the apology, that's big of you. I apologize that I was aggressive to you too.

[Armitage]

Glad that everything got settled, guys!

So to get back to the original topic, I don't think that merry and serious are useful terms. My student ombudsman is a funny SEE-Fi for instance. But generally instead of leaving our meeting to be on time for the next, he starts explaining me the topic of his next meeting and what his role is in there. I find it interesting, but I literally have to repeatedly wish him "Good luck with the meeting! Ciao!", in order for him to be on time. It seems that inferior Ni can throw a spanner in the works of SEEs to be on time when they are having fun. Even though my quadra consists of ambitious, hard-workers, that doesn't seem we're constantly serious and heavy.

[Fluffy Princess Unicorn]

Well, of course you can voice your own opinion. Which is what I'm doing too: voicing my opinion. And you seem to have a problem with it.

But if it is self-defense, then it is not "just" information, and if it's "just" information, then it isn't self-defense.

There is a bit of amix up due to me deliberately being vague about the whole thing...but basically, the self-defense was with someone else that I am still in good terms with, lol. There was another person involved in a totally disparate situation. I took my self-defense to the person and they were the only one who apologized and said they were judging me too harshly before.

[Fluffy Princess Unicorn]

Whoa, what's happening? I usually tell my friends if I think their SOs are being manipulative and state my observations. However, I usually ask for clarification if I am reading the situation correctly and how they are doing. I have never had a friend drop me for voicing my concerns because they usually take it in good faith.

This. Exactly. Including the part about wanting clarification if they think I'm wrong...although, come to think of it...I don't always openly state this, so I'm noting that my communication could use some improvement there.

[Ave]

Whoa, what's happening? I usually tell my friends if I think their SOs are being manipulative and state my observations. However, I usually ask for clarification if I am reading the situation correctly and how they are doing. I have never had a friend drop me for voicing my concerns because they usually take it in good faith.

I think it obviously depends on the intent.

I am not implying anything about LL's intent (and if I did, I apologize to her).

I was speaking from a place of personal experience. I have had a friend once tell me she didn't like other people I was friends with, and I'm pretty sure she was doing this out of an attempt to control me. It's hard to explain why and I don't want to get into too many personal details publically anyways.

I've also been in the opposite position, where I've had friends turn against me because the person they were dating told them to (if I understand correctly). That's really a tough thing to go through, I can attest to that much. But I also think that the "friends" in question allowed themsleves to be manipulated, why, I don't know. In one case, I didn't react very well myself in terms of maturity in handling the situation, though I'm not sure it would have changed the outcome if I had. In another, there was nothing I could do or did do, the "friend" suddenly ditched me because his new gf wanted him to, that was his explanation. Needless to say that it was his fault also because another friend of mine dated the same girl (after she broke up with the first guy) and he never ditched me, even though she must've known he and I were friends.

I would always listen to my friends if they told me they thought someone I dated or another friend was manipulative. I wouldn't necessarily agree, but I would appreciate the input if it was coming from a place of concern and not an attempt to control.

[Fluffy Princess Unicorn]

Alright I understand, and thank you for the apology, that's big of you. I apologize that I was aggressive to you too.

Ehh, no big deal - neither the apology, nor the aggression from you. It's just truth, I don't like the whole ego thing of not admitting when wrong. And I understand I provoked aggression from you, by being out of hand, too. Im pretty tolerant of conflicts like that anyway, though, so no worries. Water under the bridge.

[Adam Strange]

I've tried to warn people whom I know or are related to about bad relationships. It has never worked out well (for me), regardless of the fact that my intentions were to protect them from harm or to improve their situation.

Sometimes, I spoke up knowing that there was a good chance that the person I was trying to help would think that I was the bad guy and would break off relations. I did it anyway, just to improve their lives (or so I told myself. Lol.)

Only once did a person ever come back to me, years later, and say, "You were right. I should have listened to you."

You can't ripen a field before it's time, and you can open a door to knowledge and opportunity, but you can't make the person step through. (Actually, you can, but the results are rarely good. No one is going to thank you for dispelling their cherished illusions.)

So now, I only step in when I see that someone can make a situation better by being themselves.

For example, I have a very hard time influencing an ILE that I work with. I asked an SLI (Semi-Dual to the ILE) if he could take over managing this guy's time (Because, I told him, the SLI is such a great manager of resources, and resources in this case include the ILE's time), and the SLI said he didn't want to do it but since I was doing such a terrible job (thank you, Mr. Supervisor), he'd see what he could do.

But there is nothing that is going to make the ILE and the ESI materials manager into great buddies. I'm hoping that they can keep their distance, to prevent blowups.

My attitude now is. "I could help these people, but I don't want to." Let them figure it out on their own, as long as their sub-optimal lives don't affect mine.

[Ave]

Ehh, no big deal - neither the apology, nor the aggression from you. It's just truth, I don't like the whole ego thing of not admitting when wrong. And I understand I provoked aggression from you, by being out of hand, too. Im pretty tolerant of conflicts like that anyway, though, so no worries. Water under the bridge.

Yeah, I'm pretty tolerant to these types of conflicts as well. I wasn't much phased either I suppose but I think it's better to get along than to fight.

But it was big deal to me that you apologized. Perhaps you didn't see it as a big deal. @Armitage's intervention helped also, I feel.

[Ave]

I was starting to wonder if you had experiences with some conniving shedevils...

Two shedevils and a hedevil lol.

The one friend who turned against me (the case which I could have handled better) involved a guy turning me against a female friend.

[Fluffy Princess Unicorn]

I actually will become pushy about SOs being manipulative, but only when it's really bad, and there's 0 room for doubt. The whole...naive girl being manipulated (love bombed) by the predatory guy, type of thing. I intentionally said some things that I hoped would guard them against very specific gaslighting at a very critical turning point in the situation. Things happened exactly when I knew they would, and that entire thing ended horribly for her. Dude was a narcissist. She thanked me in the end, and wished she had listened.

EDIT:
When I say bad, I mean that shit ended in a restraining order and her escaping for her life.

[Adam Strange]

I was starting to wonder if you had experiences with some conniving shedevils...

If he did, @EIE, wouldn't he be married by now?

[Fluffy Princess Unicorn]

but I think it's better to get along than to fight.

yeah, ofc, same

But it was big deal to me that you apologized.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


U!!!
Take ur own (authentic) complimenty expressions, damn it. Lol

@Armitage's intervention helped also, I feel.

Yus
LIE saves the day
this seems too familiar

@Uncle Ave I thought you were ILI btw, what do you type as?

[Ave]

@Lady Lunacik

For some time I thought I was ILI as well. I also self-typed as LIE at some point, for a long time.

I self type as LSI. I wrote about it here: https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...nk-G-was-right

[crazymaisy]

My SEE hubby is more than a salesman, but anyway, most of his job details networking galore, people networks, cold calling, and hot calling, and visiting, but at any rate every phone call is very business oriented but inevitably ends up with a discussion of sports or beer snobbery, or a movie, and more. Combine most of that together with a lot of calls...time keeps on ticking ... slipping away.

Business and fun talk go hand in hand with him.

I've told him he could save time by cutting that talk down, not out, just cut it a bit quicker. A furrowed brow is his response with some vehement retort of a sound. I used to try and help that part of his ways, but alas that is not possible. I let it go.

[Fluffy Princess Unicorn]

Sorry to hear about that... it's a just bad human juju.

I have had this mostly from women who were threatened by my emotional closeness to their male partners because deep down they knew were disposable to them (sounds horrible but those situations didn't last and I usually did win out as a friend). However that shit can definitely emotionally scar you.

Yeah, that happens, some are that way. I also watched my dad isolate (female) partners from all friends, family, and so forth. THAT is manipulation, 100%. That's not the kind of thing I was doing. In my case, if you show me you get where I'm coming from and then assert yourself and say you still see it differently, I back off and am respectful 100%. I'll also listen if you think I'm wrong. Protectiveness of others and possessiveness over others are entirely different breeds.

[Adam Strange]

Yeah, that happens, some are that way. I also watched my dad isolate (female) partners from all friends, family, and so forth. THAT is manipulation, 100%. That's not the kind of thing I was doing. In my case, if you show me you get where I'm coming from and then assert yourself and say you still see it differently, I back off and am respectful 100%. I'll also listen if you think I'm wrong. Protectiveness of others and possessiveness over others are entirely different breeds.

I had a GF who tried to cut me off from my friends. Lol. All she succeeded in doing was making herself an ex-GF.

I never, ever tell my GFs what to do. The most I will do is to give my interpretation of their situation, but only if asked.

Really, I generally want my GFs to meet my other friends, including ex-GFs (when they are still in contact with me). I actually vet GFs by how I think introducing them to my friends and coworkers will go.

[DEAD]

I just don't understand Fi as a function, how people use it on a daily basis, or how an SEE even keeps up with all these relations?

[crazymaisy]

I just don't understand Fi as a function, how people use it on a daily basis, or how an SEE even keeps up with all these relations?

It's wearying to be around, good thing I can float somewhere else in my head easily.

It's enough with him and my 4 kids being in my life, anymore people, I'd implode.

Extroverts call everyone "friend", but friend is special. Acquaintances is what they have. Close and Far and everything in-between, Friend can apply to select quality acquaintances. I know people, they don't even qualify as acquaintances, for me, but hubby would call them friends. It's all mystery how that SeFi works in their heads with so many people, but I see it,

...and also the very horrible day after being very, very bad, the regret, the agony, "oh just stand up, and deal with it!" feeling I have watching him. Today is such a day. My SEE had too much to drink and made an ass of himself and can't remember last night at all. I told him enough about it, and he is so regretful, said "this is it" and I said "it better be since you are not getting any younger, just clean up your act and live longer please. No more deep dives, they are dangerous!"

He's reformed for now. Yes, my fingers are crossed and seeing is believing.

He doesn't think he's an alcoholic, I'd say he sure is close if not one. I told him AA would be helpful, but he says he'll do it for awhile, meaning not drink for a month or so.

He can't commit for anything except what he wants, yep, don't tell him what the rules are. Well no, but I will be bit more rule-y with him, he really needs it.

So what do SEE women get like? Oh the drama is all I can imagine.

[Adam Strange]

It's wearying to be around, good thing I can float somewhere else in my head easily.

It's enough with him and my 4 kids being in my life, anymore people, I'd implode.

Extroverts call everyone "friend", but friend is special. Acquaintances is what they have. Close and Far and everything in-between, Friend can apply to select quality acquaintances. I know people, they don't even qualify as acquaintances, for me, but hubby would call them friends. It's all mystery how that SeFi works in their heads with so many people, but I see it,

...and also the very horrible day after being very, very bad, the regret, the agony, "oh just stand up, and deal with it!" feeling I have watching him. Today is such a day. My SEE had too much to drink and made an ass of himself and can't remember last night at all. I told him enough about it, and he is so regretful, said "this is it" and I said "it better be since you are not getting any younger, just clean up your act and live longer please. No more deep dives, they are dangerous!"

He's reformed for now. Yes, my fingers are crossed and seeing is believing.

He doesn't think he's an alcoholic, I'd say he sure is close if not one. I told him AA would be helpful, but he says he'll do it for awhile, meaning not drink for a month or so.

He can't commit for anything except what he wants, yep, don't tell him what the rules are. Well no, but I will be bit more rule-y with him, he really needs it.

So what do SEE women get like? Oh the drama is all I can imagine.

@crazymaisy, take a picture of him when he's completely drunk and hungover, and post it on the fridge, where he'll see it every day. That might help.

I had a hard time with my drinking. I wanted to stop and I didn't want to stop, and there were times when I NEEDED to drink. Which is bad, I know.

What did it for me was the fact that I was starting to slur when I wasn't drunk. Brain damage, in other words. That scared me.
Plus, I discovered that 500 mg of Solgar Resveratrol taken daily removed my NEED to drink. I was very lucky to combine that with a desire to get healthier by not drinking.

[crazymaisy]

@crazymaisy, take a picture of him when he's completely drunk and hungover, and post it on the fridge, where he'll see it every day. That might help.

I had a hard time with my drinking. I wanted to stop and I didn't want to stop, and there were times when I NEEDED to drink. Which is bad, I know.

What did it for me was the fact that I was starting to slur when I wasn't drunk. Brain damage, in other words. That scared me.
Plus, I discovered that 500 mg of Solgar Resveratrol taken daily removed my NEED to drink. I was very lucky to combine that with a desire to get healthier by not drinking.

If I get that opportunity I certainly will do that!

I wish I could have recorded the phone call we had yesterday ... oh boy oh boy.

Yes, I notice a bit of more slur in him lately when he's not drinking and it scares ME! I need him to hear that too, I bet.

Good to hear your recovery story. Just ordered some Solgar Resveratrol -- hopefully he'll take it and benefit. Makes sense it can help, hope it does.

I'm going to hold him to some rules, he earned needing rule IMO and will accept for awhile at least.

[Adam Strange]

If I get that opportunity I certainly will do that!

I wish I could have recorded the phone call we had yesterday ... oh boy oh boy.

Yes, I notice a bit of more slur in him lately when he's not drinking and it scares ME! I need him to hear that too, I bet.

Good to hear your recovery story. Just ordered some Solgar Resveratrol -- hopefully he'll take it and benefit. Makes sense it can help, hope it does.

I'm going to hold him to some rules, he earned needing rule IMO and will accept for awhile at least.

Here's why it works, @crazymaisy:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2577853/

and

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3634096/

Resveratrol fixed some kind of genetic fuck up that I was born with, which resulted in me being an alcoholic. Taking Resveratrol actually made me stop NEEDING alcohol.

Now, having said that, I showed my alcoholic LII sister this stuff. She actually drank herself into a coma once and was brought back to life by changing out her blood at the hospital. She slurred for years after that.
So I thought she'd benefit from it.
She took Resveratrol for two weeks, and then stopped. She said, after two weeks of taking it, it wasn't giving her a rush. SMH.

So, you might be able to remove the NEED to drink, but if you still WANT to drink, then nothing can save you.

[adage]

It's wearying to be around, good thing I can float somewhere else in my head easily.

It's enough with him and my 4 kids being in my life, anymore people, I'd implode.

Extroverts call everyone "friend", but friend is special. Acquaintances is what they have. Close and Far and everything in-between, Friend can apply to select quality acquaintances. I know people, they don't even qualify as acquaintances, for me, but hubby would call them friends. It's all mystery how that SeFi works in their heads with so many people, but I see it,

...and also the very horrible day after being very, very bad, the regret, the agony, "oh just stand up, and deal with it!" feeling I have watching him. Today is such a day. My SEE had too much to drink and made an ass of himself and can't remember last night at all. I told him enough about it, and he is so regretful, said "this is it" and I said "it better be since you are not getting any younger, just clean up your act and live longer please. No more deep dives, they are dangerous!"

He's reformed for now. Yes, my fingers are crossed and seeing is believing.

He doesn't think he's an alcoholic, I'd say he sure is close if not one. I told him AA would be helpful, but he says he'll do it for awhile, meaning not drink for a month or so.

He can't commit for anything except what he wants, yep, don't tell him what the rules are. Well no, but I will be bit more rule-y with him, he really needs it.

So what do SEE women get like? Oh the drama is all I can imagine.

This is both interesting and sad.

'Live fast and die young' is what my SEE sister wanted to do, it is what she did.
We had a shitty childhood, but she had it so much more worse because of how she would go after what she wanted now and not care about tomorrow.
He basic drive to go after wants pretty much protected me, it got most of the negative attention.
She had the tendency to try to avoid pain à la 7, so turning to things that makes one forget and have fun like drugs.
I can only imagine what she did to get her fix.
I remember her telling me about her sex life with shitty men when I was 12, lol, we have quite a few years apart and it's like she couldn't register I wasn't on the same page. She was trying to make it all funny but really, it was dreadfull and abusive a relationship she was in.
There's this casual superficial bond that gets created to fill the Se's agenda and it can disregard a lot of things.

There was nothing traditionaly serious in her behavior, but her face wasn't as expressive as an Fe. She hung around so many people, in huge groups but I think she only had one friend-friend through all those aquaintance-friends. I could tell their relationship was special even tho it was under the sign of frivolity.
I also know I had a special place in her heart, like she had in mine. I only learned it after her death tho.
Most people would doubt this because we were not close. How could a quiet kid/teen who draws in a corner and a teen/adult who's super social be close in a home filled with disharmony?
Out of all the fun times and fun people pictures she had, she only kept a few of herself, her friend, and one of me, her boring little sister who was too young to do anything.

Then again, fun or escapism?
SEE's can really steer far from their honest feelings with all of their empty sensorial search.

That's where the real bond is with SEEs, when all is said and done, it's what's left.
It's where they keep going back.
Superficials bonds can be put on top of a real one, it's situational needs that makes this happen. The superficials fade, and it leave either nothing or everything that matters.

[crazymaisy]

Yes, I get it.

I don't have a bad gene for that, thank God. I can kick anything to the curb if I think it's ... whatever it is.

I'm KETO for a few month now and don't crave any sugar or bread, it's my final break from being controlled.

I've tried to get my SEE to eat better but drinking makes him eat more junk and that is addictive too. His lack of accepting others Rules keeps him from committing to better ways, it's really insane, but the profiles are 1000% right about that.

Step one is not drink and take Solgar Resveratrol, for a month.
Step two is don't drink! Well, if you must, you have to log what you are drinking so I know you are moderating now.
Step three is make him think he came up with the idea to not drink at all. (Eventually it'll sink in and he have an epiphany with this new information. LOL)

[Adam Strange]

Yes, I get it.

I don't have a bad gene for that, thank God. I can kick anything to the curb if I think it's ... whatever it is.

I'm KETO for a few month now and don't crave any sugar or bread, it's my final break from being controlled.

I've tried to get my SEE to eat better but drinking makes him eat more junk and that is addictive too. His lack of accepting others Rules keeps him from committing to better ways, it's really insane, but the profiles are 1000% right about that.

Step one is not drink and take Solgar Resveratrol, for a month.
Step two is don't drink! Well, if you must, you have to log what you are drinking so I know you are moderating now.
Step three is make him think he came up with the idea to not drink at all. (Eventually it'll sink in and he have an epiphany with this new information. LOL)

@crazymaisy, I sincerely hope your plan works, and you have my best wishes. But I have to say one thing: I’m still taking Resveratrol, every day. It’s a dollar-a-day habit that I’ll probably always have.

Every once in a while, I forget to take it, sometimes for a few days. I then find myself getting upset at the massive stupidity that I see everywhere and I tell myself, “I need a drink!”

And that’s the indication that I forgot to take my daily dose. I then take a capsule, and in twenty minutes I’m not bothered by the frustrating insanity that goes on around me and I no longer need a drink.

-Adam “Born that way” Strange.

P.S.
I haven’t had a drink in over ten years, and I miss the wild times I used to have, but I like the non-wrecked cars, the non-wrecked finances, and the non-wrecked relationships. Plus, the brain cells. I like them, too.

[crazymaisy]

My hubby says I waste so much money on Amazon. I buy the things I need to eat that aren't findable in stores that I go to. I would buy this stuff anywhere ... so that's not really a problem.

He buys so much beer and snacks because of it I don't even want to know the cost it has been.

So my three points ... yes I SEE'd my list for expectations. Oops. At any rate, if that supplement works for him, he will be taking it forever probably. I hope it improves this in the first month, I'll get more and keep at it. I can't make him take it, but I will try my darndest to get it done.

[Vis]

A few points here.
Confucius (the man) was EIE according to SHS.

This is a mistype. He is not EIE, but I can't give a definite typing due to unreliable record of his texts. Mencius, on the other hand, is ILI. He believed that the common people in the country being more important than the leader. If the leader is mistreating people, they should be replaced. In Chinese history, many ILIs acted according to this principle that either got themselves killed or exiled (might also be due to Fe PoLR).

Gulenco typed some Chinese political figures, mostly wrong. Might be because of the cultural difference in type manifestations.

A few points here.
Gammas can be genuinely kind people but they are always more oriented towards benefit for themselves and their close ones rather than dying for ideals of peace for their country(regardless of how pragmatic such peace for a country is for their relatives, it is still more a Ti thing as per the defintions I gave, I think).

Correct me if I'm wrong. You think FiTe people are incapable of being selfless. You think only Ti people can die for ideals. And the reason you think this way is because people with authority said it (even though the people with authority themselves might have type or cultural bias).

A few points here.
Ultimately, Confucian philosophy isn't something I know alot about, so I can't comment much really, it's possible others have built upon Confucius' philosophy and made it more Te even if Confucius himself was beta. I don't know.

Correct me if I'm wrong. So you don't know a lot about this person. And you believe he's a beta purely because someone with authority said he is.

I'm not criticizing you, just stating the facts. You are entitled to your way of thinking. Let's end this conversation.

[Vis]

@Lady Lunacik

For some time I thought I was ILI as well. I also self-typed as LIE at some point, for a long time.

I self type as LSI. I wrote about it here: https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...nk-G-was-right

I think you are LSE. I have to stop myself very hard to avoid starting a supervision process. But I know you will not listen to me because I have no credential, and you don't like to be wrong.

LSEs can have a very active imagination and like innovative ideas because of Ne activating. With Te leading, and developed Si creative, the mature LSEs are more likely to follow institutional rules and traditions (therefore I should not criticize LSEs from following authorities). They can be very talented comedians because of demonstrative Se.

Anyways from my Ni point of view, right or wrong typing is not as important as finding the right path for one's life. And no matter what typing you believe, you are probably on the right path by being loyal to their methods and a good organizer of SHS followers. So good luck with everything.

[Fluffy Princess Unicorn]

...had this open in a tab as I was closing my open ones. Thought I sent it.

I had a GF who tried to cut me off from my friends. Lol. All she succeeded in doing was making herself an ex-GF.

I never, ever tell my GFs what to do. The most I will do is to give my interpretation of their situation, but only if asked.

Really, I generally want my GFs to meet my other friends, including ex-GFs (when they are still in contact with me). I actually vet GFs by how I think introducing them to my friends and coworkers will go.

Yeah, my dad had me cut off from friends/family myself, as well, for control/manipulation reasons. He basically instilled trust issues ever since I was little.

I admit, I have some trust issues with my partner. It's because I didn't know what love was when I was younger, and I was super idealistic and naive, and I got cheated on and fucked over a lot. Psychology resources explain that this is common from abusive childhoods; basically, you never received love from parental figures, then you go seeking out the familiar. I handle my trust issues OK for a messed up person. I start therapy this Wednesday (super thrilled, I finally found a therapist I think I like). My bf is aware of my struggles, I'm very open with him about my feelings, fears, insecurities, and so on. I don't go trying to do this or that controlling thing, I just talk about how I feel, why, etc. I understand that I am just healing from a rough past. He's always loving and understanding about it, and comforts me.

[Ave]

I think you are LSE. I have to stop myself very hard to avoid starting a supervision process. But I know you will not listen to me because I have no credential, and you don't like to be wrong.

LSEs can have a very active imagination and like innovative ideas because of Ne activating. With Te leading, and developed Si creative, the mature LSEs are more likely to follow institutional rules and traditions (therefore I should not criticize LSEs from following authorities). They can be very talented comedians because of demonstrative Se.

Anyways from my Ni point of view, right or wrong typing is not as important as finding the right path for one's life. And no matter what typing you believe, you are probably on the right path by being loyal to their methods and a good organizer of SHS followers. So good luck with everything.

You're assuming alot about me, my motives, and my personality and it's quite annoying. This isn't any "supervision process", it's just you being presumptuous. I don't blindly follow authorities and I am not very traditional, you know jack shit about me as a person. I don't "blindly follow SHS due to credentials", I prefer their methodology as do alot of people on this forum (guess they are all LSEs too though). I don't mind being wrong for the record. But I hate things being assumed about me.

You're coming across as someone who wants to battletype me, and what is worse, instead of waiting for my answer, you just say "you won't listen to me because I have no credential" which also comes across as P-A. I suppose I'm not really looking for input on my type these days, that's true, though. Your typing seems very personal and thusly biased, plus noone wants to be battletyped either.

[Vis]

You're assuming alot about me, my motives, and my personality and it's quite annoying. This isn't any "supervision process", it's just you being presumptuous. I don't blindly follow authorities and I am not very traditional, you know jack shit about me as a person. I don't "blindly follow SHS due to credentials", I prefer their methodology as do alot of people on this forum (guess they are all LSEs too though). I don't mind being wrong for the record. But I hate things being assumed about me.

Sure. Since you don't blindly follow authorities, you must have your own reasons for these claims you made.

Why do you think FiTe people are in capable of being selfless if they or their friends are not benefitting?
Why do you think only Ti people can die for ideals?
Why do you think Confucius is EIE even when you don't know much about him?
Why do you think SHS's methodology is superior compared to other methods? Which methods are you comparing it to and how much do you know these other methods and their efficacy?

Please don't just give me Gulenko's articles. He's a person and he has his bias in observing people. I want to know why you think that way. I was trying to be kind before. But since this is what you want, we can battle.

[Armitage]

Resveratrol fixed some kind of genetic fuck up that I was born with, which resulted in me being an alcoholic.

Genes always interact with your environment. You thus weren't born an alcoholic, but had a predisposing risk of becoming one. The poor parenting you went through as a kid ensured that this risk becaming reality, because it activated the GABA inhibitor gene within you. The poor upbringing that you received thus precipitated your alcohol addiction. By the time that you had left the house and thus escaped your parent's negative influence on you, you had developed a physical dependency on alcohol to artificially stimulate your GABA receptors.
However, the behavioural disinhibition that the alcohol caused within you, landed you into much trouble. Drinking subsequently became a vicious, downward spiral, from what I understand, because it numbed your negative Fi-judgements of your own bad behaviour. The escapism provided by alcohol thus perpetuated your maladjusted drinking.

When you finally decided to quit drinking, you probably were already in a healthier state of mind than the years prior. That enabled you to stop, while the reserveratrol just quieted your physical addiction. This is why it doesn't help your sister, because she's not only physically addicted, but also still mentally addicted to alcohol.

[Ave]

Sure. Since you don't blindly follow authorities, you must have your own reasons for these claims you made.

Why do you think FiTe people are in capable of being selfless if they or their friends are not benefitting?
Why do you think only Ti people can die for ideals?
Why do you think Confucius is EIE even when you don't know much about him?
Why do you think SHS's methodology is superior compared to other methods? Which methods are you comparing it to and how much do you know these other methods and their efficacy?

Please don't just give me Gulenko's articles. He's a person and he has his bias in observing people. I want to know why you think that way. I was trying to be kind before. But since this is what you want, we can battle.

No, I explicitly said I don't to battle.

It didn't seem to me like you were trying to be kind. I didn't sense any benevolence from you, quite the contrary. But I actually think you are being less rude here than before.

But I will answer because I want to clear up misunderstandings, especially for people reading. You also say you want to know how I think about these questions, and I take you at face value so I'll give you some answers.

The first two questions are theoretical questions. If you were paying attention to what I wrote, you would have known I don't consider them important as the Reinin dichotomy in question isn't important. You know what I think? I think you took it personally that I said only Ti valuers can die for ideals (not exactly what I said, but it's what you remembered, at least). There are better theoretical questions to ask in socionics, and none of it really matters too much because none of Jungian typology is hard science and thusly it is not enforceable in a debate.

I didn't say I thought Confucius was EIE, I said that is what SHS types him as. I don't know why they type him that way, though. I mentioned it because I thought it was interesting. You seemed to feel different about that, though.

These questions about Confucius and Reinins are details to me though, sorry. I find your last question the only really interesting one, and I will try to answer as best I can.

I like SHS because they have a holistic vision of the type and because they understand type as something very basic, almost like an automatic process. This makes more sense to me than the vision of type Westerners often have, which is as something closely related to your conscious identity. Your conscious identity is something that can change, which would mean, by this token, type could also. Energy metabolism, as a theory, connects to this because energy (the transformation of information into action) is something largely automatic as it happens pretty much on a biological/physical level, rather than a purely mental one.

I don't think SHS is the only valid methodoloy, I also like Archetype Center's methods even if they are very different and produce some different results, they also have a vision of type as something holistic and as the very basic skeleton of your personality, not something that is related to traits, social identity, behaviors, and I find this very refreshing. I like also how both AC and SHS also see "upper layers" to typing. The socionics type may be the basic skeleton but AC adds on psychosophy as a way to explain career choices and other more conscious, deliberate aspects of our lives more closely related to how we see ourselves. SHS does this with DCNH and the functional profile.

I don't much like WSS because of how they connect model A elements with a very conscious perception people have of themselves. When Jack interviews people, I also feel like he "goes along" with what the person is saying which makes him unreliable. A diagnostic process should, in my view, always take place with the interviewer not getting emotionally involved with the interviewee. Kind of like in psychotherapy, but perhaps for different reasons. The analyst must remain neutral, less bias creep in.

Honestly, the way people type on forums such as this one is usually no less "blind" than "following" SHS or AC, or any other school for that matter. It basically consists of reading a few wikisocion articles, and then typing oneself and people they know. When asked why, they will refer you to some article written in the 1970s and provide a few examples "correlating" what they know about themselves and others with information in said articles as if it were the bible. Wikisocion is outdated information, and there are many developments being done in socionics that the West has no idea of, SHS, AC, Bestsocionics, are all better sources of information and they have decades of research behind them so their viewpoints are a bit more relevant than those of the early socionists. If you've been reading socionics articles for a few months, or even for many years, and think you've mastered the subject, you're a delusional fool. I'm not saying anyone should submit to another's reasoning. But if you're studying socionics, you're submitting to another's reasoning no matter what as none of this is hard science. It requires accepting some axioms based on little proof (or at least less proof, than say, the Earth being round, which btw most people accept on word even if it can be demonstrated with a few simple experiments that the earth is not flat, yet people accept the premise without doing the experiments). So if you're accepting certain things, don't you think it better to at least look at modern research and compare to see if those things are valid? What different viewpoints exist besides "classical" socionics? With all that being said, I'm the one who is blind, traditional, and narrow minded here? Lol

[Armitage]

I think you are LSE. I have to stop myself very hard to avoid starting a supervision process. But I know you will not listen to me because I have no credential, and you don't like to be wrong.

LSEs can have a very active imagination and like innovative ideas because of Ne activating. With Te leading, and developed Si creative, the mature LSEs are more likely to follow institutional rules and traditions (therefore I should not criticize LSEs from following authorities). They can be very talented comedians because of demonstrative Se.

Anyways from my Ni point of view, right or wrong typing is not as important as finding the right path for one's life. And no matter what typing you believe, you are probably on the right path by being loyal to their methods and a good organizer of SHS followers. So good luck with everything.

I understand that you meant no harm by sharing the conclusion you arrived at, Vis, but it rubbed Uncle Ave the wrong way, because you essentially implied with this that you know him better, than that he knows himself, without ever having spoken with him vis-à-vis.

Moreover, I contest Uncle Ave being an LSE. I know many of my kindred, including amongst others my own father, a political friend, a programming friend, and a friend from my statistics master, and I can assure you that Uncle Ave isn't a LSE. He has this chill vibe, like my other SLI friends. LSEs, on the other hand, always leave this composed and constrained impression. He actively looks for stimulation and change, while LSEs search for comfort and stability. Uncle Ave looks for adventure, whereas LSEs desire predictability. He detests bureaucracy, whereas Delta sensors seem to revel in it. He enjoys Fe-acting, while most LSEs I know are more into quiet, Fi-introverted Si-sensing arts, such as cooking, gardening, sculpting, pottery, writing, and on occassion also painting. Uncle Ave is a heavy lifter and challenges himself through this, whereas I know most LSEs to enjoy endurance sports such as cycling and running more.
The only overlap I see is that LSIs and LSEs are both concrete thinkers, but that's where the simularities end.

[Armitage]

@adage, your story really moved me. My sister too has this tacit bond with me. We don't talk much, mostly because she's quite closed-off, but we always bring each other thoughtful souvenirs from our holidays. She phonecalled me first when she obtained her driver's license, and I did the same when I obtained mine. There's a tacit trust between us. I'm sorry to hear how you lost your sister, and I'm sorry for what the two of you went through during your youth. You have got my sympathy, for what it's worth.