What are ESTjs like in relationships? How do you express love?

[Slacker]

I know three LSE/EII couples. Two of them are male LSE/EII, the other is female LSE/male EII. They are all at least reasonably happy, though one of the LSE husbands complains all the time that his EII wife doesn't keep the house up well enough. But they are happy despite that one issue. I think earlier in their marriage he just took care of it, but his work schedule doesn't give him time now and he still wants it pretty darn tidy. The female LSE/male EII couples is particularly happy. They are a very sweet couple. Length of marriage - that one is probably about 15 years, the one with the one issue is maybe 10 years, the other one is a second marriage for both and maybe 7 years. They also seem very happy.

[Slacker]

Oh wait I know another couple that is having problems, but the rumor mill says that he is, to use a euphemism, unable to fulfill his marital role due to some health problems, and has been unable for quite some time. There are times where I hear more than I want to know.

[Solidad]

What are ESTjs like in relationships?

I did not read the other posting...just skipping through to post before going off-line--

I know you are asking LSE but I hope it is still relevant for other types to respond.

As EII I've had one dual relationship that did not last (romantically) past a year.

I was really elementally drawn to this individual yet we had a lot of problems.

My dual would complain that I was too young to understand (so age issues?) issues...that was somewhat constricting...

I also had a difficult time interacting without regular straightforward statements (or reassurances) of love & respect.... or behavior that indicated fidelity.

ex: My dual would complain of an ex as being a horrible person...but nonetheless invite this same person to a party, get drunk, & then make-out with so-called evil ex--
maybe this is just Si influence, weak Fi... being sentimental & falling for past relationship.... I dunno....

I never thought my dual was being a jerk...I didn't even feel I was cheated on...I just didn't understand what or why this was happening --

--

subsequently, we are still friends & I absolutely respect my ex dual

---

LSE *are* very adult & intense (mentally tense brainiacs!!) in major ways
but they long for an enduring appreciation of love, reliability, friendship & respect.

I believe in the socionics concept that... even if you break from a dual (then reunite) the bond gets stronger & stronger, depending on the phases & mistakes that can be weathered through.

next thread recommendation: how to find LSEs :-)

[Minde]

ex: My dual would complain of an ex as being a horrible person...but nonetheless invite this same person to a party, get drunk, & then make-out with so-called evil ex--
maybe this is just Si influence, weak Fi... being sentimental & falling for past relationship.... I dunno....

I never thought my dual was being a jerk...I didn't even feel I was cheated on...I just didn't understand what or why this was happening --

--

subsequently, we are still friends & I absolutely respect my ex dual

That would kill me. Ok, so maybe "kill" is an overly strong word, but it would wound me to the core and put a pretty much insurmountable barrier between the two of us. It's not something I could, or rather would choose, to endure. When in a relationship, I basically want to be the other person's sole object of affection (romantically speaking - obviously having friends and family is good). To me, if they're spreading their affection around like that then I don't mean as much to them as I'd want to, and we wouldn't have a relationship. It would be way too painful and unsettling to "share".

Anyway, this isn't really directed at you, Solidad, more that what you said provoked a strong emotional reaction from me.

[tiny_dancer]

My dual would complain of an ex as being a horrible person...but nonetheless invite this same person to a party, get drunk, & then make-out with so-called evil ex--

*cough* uh-huh ... yeah ... wtf?

I never thought my dual was being a jerk...I didn't even feel I was cheated on...I just didn't understand what or why this was happening --

Lord love ya, but I think you've intellectualized your relationship past the point of rationality.

*sigh* Been there. Done that.

[UDP]

I`m pretty sure my neighbour is an LSE and it`s outstanding to me, how often he is in an argument with his wife. She is friend with my mother and complains once in a while about her husband... It`s not an unhappy relationship. It just seems that these arguments are part of the relationship like pieces of a jigsaw completing the picture. Maybe I´m just fantasizing but these dissonances seem to me like having some significance. His wife is an energetic person. Very extrovert, very self-confident and gets annoyed by others easily.

I don't think that would be appealing to me... I'm not interested in people who are exactly like me. It feels like incest, basically. I don't feel a sense of harmony, or balance, or completion from people who are too similar to me. It's probably also why I enjoy feminine women, because they seem soooo feminine and different. "The mysterious distance between a man and a woman".

The point is, that I don`t think it`s a fortuity that this two people found each other.
Maybe it`s just a prejudice, but I always thought it`s essencial for such "strong" people to have a partner who is able and willing to "fight", to give active resistance. I could imagine such people being in need of someone who is rather similar to themselves, than "soft" and compromising. At least that`s what I heard of some people.

I think it depends. I think Se/Ni people can both be 'strong and competitive' at times, the victim having their ways and the aggressor having their own. But it seems kind of strange to me, how I see more 'typical takes' on Se/Ni relationships.

I also want someone strong, but in certain ways. In my mind, I see 'strength' as being related to their take on . In more vernacular, I see someone's values and ethics and interpretation on people and relationships as being important. It's a critical factor in being able to relate to people.

That`s a bit discouraging. I´m not a person who tends to insists of her receivables, wishes or sometimes even of needs. Of course it depends on situation, but the tendence is still there, at least compared to many other people I know. I often feel guilty, when I make demands which don`t feel to be very important. People called me "modest". But in my opinion it`s only weak will. My mum says I was like that even as a child. I wasn`t very pushy when I had wishes. But I was very unyielding and intractable when I didn`t want ( to do ) something.

That's fine. I tend to notice things like this myself, so I find it appealing, people who aren't always seeking the spotlight or being uber demanding of their needs. I'm drawn to it in some ways a sense of protection, or an endearment because of humbleness.

I actually find this really flat out sexy in EIIs because they seem to be clueless in certain ways as to how attractive they are. It tends to get them into problems at times, though, because they don't realize what they do. . . but that also makes me feel 'protective', too, in a way. But I am not attracted to a sort of self-importance or haughtiness about one's looks; I don't like it when people try hard, or try to be a celebrity. Nothing turns me off more.

My resistance is a rather passive one. It would be like "running into a wall" rather than "fighting". I couldn`t imagine myself "fighting". It`s against my nature. I prefer to argue in a calm way. And I only argue when I feel the need of change or doing a certain decision or a decision is wrong in my opinion. Otherwise there is no reason for an argument. In addition, I would be glad to have somebody who lead. And that`s the point I think. LSE are too strong for me. I think it`s like they need to lean against a tree to feel safe and comfortable feeling the resistance. But leaning against a bush wouldn`t be that comfortable. The bush doesn`t have one strong stem but many thin ones. The bush is flexible. It adapts. The bush is weak. Not enough resistance. Like falling through the bush...

Not exactly. There are a lot of different ways to analyze why I like EIIs, from positive, negative, or neutral lights.

In the negative or perhaps cynical fashion, I like EIIs because I don't feel threatened by them. I often feel like I can let down my defenses more around them because they don't seem so aggressive or combative. And in some ways, their non-combativeness actually makes me focus to or cater to them more, because I'm more likely to retort to someone that I see as being combative than bring hostility on to someone who isn't that way. So, you could say, I prefer a 'bush' or softer thing, and a very strong or domineering person would not be so appealing.

In another way, I don't want someone to have a lot of resistance because I don't want to have to push a lot. In a relationship, I really want to be a team. I don't care if I take the 'lead' in lots of things, it seems to be what I do naturally anyways. But I want to be on the same page, and I want to be together. I want someone who will help me with the relationship and care about it a lot, and I know I need help with interpreting things relationally; I know I have strengths and weaknesses. But like I said above, I want someone to balance me out, not someone who shares my exact same strengths and weaknesses.

It`s a bit discouraging...

I believe when you find more examples, other than that one - examples of LSEs with other kinds of people - you won't be so discouraged. I don't see anything problematic with your wants or how you are.

Does anyone know an LSE-EII couple in real life?
Are they really fortunate in the long term?


EDIT: I just realized that my post is totally off topic. Sorry!

Don't worry about it.

I know one LSE-EII couple in the long run. They do seem to be doing fairly well, they kind of have the typical house hold - a nice house, 3 kids, a pretty good family. Their house is "the most peaceful house I'd ever been in" or it was that way when the children were younger. I've known them long enough to see their eldest (who is close to my age) go from a baby to a college student. I think nowadays, the LSE is a little bit more stressed out because his kids are older and maybe problems with his job, he seems to be a kind of cranky or whiny E6 variety. But I think they are doing alright. The EII is doing great - she is very healthy and active, and is very involved with her church and her children and her small activities elsewhere.

I think the dual couple will do well, but like any other relationship, it depends a lot on the maturity and 'health' of the people involved. If the LSE in the above example seems to deteriorate, become more defensive and self centered, doesn't handle stress well, starts being mean or hurtful, then I don't think that's a good sign - - - but that's outside of socionics, of course.

[UDP]

I did not read the other posting...just skipping through to post before going off-line--

I know you are asking LSE but I hope it is still relevant for other types to respond.

As EII I've had one dual relationship that did not last (romantically) past a year.

I was really elementally drawn to this individual yet we had a lot of problems.

My dual would complain that I was too young to understand (so age issues?) issues...that was somewhat constricting...

I also had a difficult time interacting without regular straightforward statements (or reassurances) of love & respect.... or behavior that indicated fidelity.

ex: My dual would complain of an ex as being a horrible person...but nonetheless invite this same person to a party, get drunk, & then make-out with so-called evil ex--
maybe this is just Si influence, weak Fi... being sentimental & falling for past relationship.... I dunno....

I wouldn't make any socionics excuses for that.
It's his own personal decisions and a reflection of what his values are. I know an LSE who has dated and married only one girl his whole entire life and they are middle aged and still married (I think she may be ESI). They're both fairly happy it seems, as well.

I never thought my dual was being a jerk...

Well, unfortunately, that's your mistake. That person was being a jerk to you, and whatever his socionics type is, it doesn't matter or excuse it.

I didn't even feel I was cheated on...

I'd say you were cheated on. Regardless of how you feel about it.

I just didn't understand what or why this was happening --

Sometimes I think EIIs have trouble accepting that people are jerks, or can have bad intentions, or can be even abusive to them... or don't really understand that they should expect better/deserve more, or whatever.
--- heh, but then again, to take socionics type out of it, it's just something you have to get used to about people yourself.

subsequently, we are still friends & I absolutely respect my ex dual

I don't know if I'd be able to respect an ex who did that to me. I wonder if you should.

LSE *are* very adult & intense (mentally tense brainiacs!!) in major ways but they long for an enduring appreciation of love, reliability, friendship & respect.

There are plenty of pretty dumb and base LSEs in the world. (...)

I believe in the socionics concept that... even if you break from a dual (then reunite) the bond gets stronger & stronger, depending on the phases & mistakes that can be weathered through.

next thread recommendation: how to find LSEs :-)

IDK about the "socionics concept" you mentioned. I think that may be true if people are able to grow and understand more over time. But there are bad people and bad relationships, and people can make wrong decisions and cause too much hurt - dual relationships are not destined to greatness.

I have evidence of such.

[UDP]

That would kill me. Ok, so maybe "kill" is an overly strong word, but it would wound me to the core and put a pretty much insurmountable barrier between the two of us. It's not something I could, or rather would choose, to endure. When in a relationship, I basically want to be the other person's sole object of affection (romantically speaking - obviously having friends and family is good). To me, if they're spreading their affection around like that then I don't mean as much to them as I'd want to, and we wouldn't have a relationship. It would be way too painful and unsettling to "share".

That's how I feel, too.

[Lobo]

ex: My dual would complain of an ex as being a horrible person...but nonetheless invite this same person to a party, get drunk, & then make-out with so-called evil ex--
maybe this is just Si influence, weak Fi... being sentimental & falling for past relationship.... I dunno....

I never thought my dual was being a jerk...I didn't even feel I was cheated on...I just didn't understand what or why this was happening --

--

subsequently, we are still friends & I absolutely respect my ex dual

This is interesting, because something complex must have happened which made you feel that way.

[Slacker]

That's how I feel, too.

Me too.

[Marie84]

I like Ryu's reply to Sasha about EII+LSE. It basically sums-up the essence of duality, which is sort of a Yin-Yang balance where each person in a duality has their strengths and weaknesses that harmonize with the others.
There's really no need to desire your own abilities in another since you're already capable of doing these things yourself.
Not to mention that most people want to feel appreciated and wanted, in some way, and that just can't happen (with sincerity) if the other person in a relationship doesn't see your contributions as beneficial

[UDP]

I like Ryu

:redface:

[Marie84]

oh bahaha Mr. Smarty Pants

[Marie84]

I actually find this really flat out sexy in EIIs because they seem to be clueless in certain ways as to how attractive they are. It tends to get them into problems at times, though, because they don't realize what they do. . . but that also makes me feel 'protective', too, in a way. But I am not attracted to a sort of self-importance or haughtiness about one's looks; I don't like it when people try hard, or try to be a celebrity. Nothing turns me off more.

I forgot to ask..
What do you mean by this?

[UDP]

I forgot to ask..
What do you mean by this?

Sometimes, EIIs are obvlivious to flirting, and aren't always the most aware of their sexuality or how their body can be appealing to others. I think that may be more so for women than male EIIs, but, idk.

EIIs tend to think they are 'not attractive' or only 'see the flaws' in themselves which furthers this self image - especially the E9 variety. They see themselves as being neutral and possibly even unappealing, which simply may not be the case in reality.

Sometimes EIIs are so unintentional about being sexy or flirting / returning flirts that they don't know what they are doing. They sometimes think they are just being normal, or are being nice, and don't realize how their actions could be seen as enticing to other people. That is not just 'my observations', I've heard EIIs say this themselves.


Sometimes EIIs are somewhat unaware of 'bad situations' (sometimes they are also over-concerned about them, too). Examples: one EII I know wasn't quite aware of how her own beauty could lead to problems in a certain 'bad part of town' (we were in a place that she wasn't familiar with). She unintentionally wore something that showed off her body more than expected, and she wasn't sort of unaware of how it could have been trouble (been a lot more inviting than intended) if she had been alone. And again later, she even said herself "Ah, I was so foolish to just throw on my shirt and these pants (meaning tight stretch pants and a shirt with no bra), and thinking everything would be fine - we could just get in the car and go". But she didn't quite realize that a lot of things could have happened and that even though it was more comfortable to be that way, it was possibly risky given the place that we were going to. (The car broke down and we were in a somewhat risky place, so to say).

In short, sometimes EIIs are not particularly good at assessing the threat levels of situations (in terms of negatives). I think sometimes it's just easier for them to pretend like doesn't exist, and sometimes have trouble dealing with things that are vulgar.

[Suz]

Sometimes, EIIs are obvlivious to flirting, and aren't always the most aware of their sexuality or how their body can be appealing to others. I think that may be more so for women than male EIIs, but, idk.

EIIs tend to think they are 'not attractive' or only 'see the flaws' in themselves which furthers this self image - especially the E9 variety. They see themselves as being neutral and possibly even unappealing, which simply may not be the case in reality.

Sometimes EIIs are so unintentional about being sexy or flirting / returning flirts that they don't know what they are doing. They sometimes think they are just being normal, or are being nice, and don't realize how their actions could be seen as enticing to other people. That is not just 'my observations', I've heard EIIs say this themselves.

. . .

These are very characteristic of IEE as well, as per my understanding.

Heck if not, maybe i'm EII!! VERY characteristic of me.

[UDP]

I don't see why it would be that far off for IEEs.

Of course, what i said is a generalization, and some delta NFs are better at it than others, but, it's a tendency I've seen amongst a good size sample of EIIs.

[Marie84]

Sometimes, EIIs are obvlivious to flirting, and aren't always the most aware of their sexuality or how their body can be appealing to others. I think that may be more so for women than male EIIs, but, idk.

EIIs tend to think they are 'not attractive' or only 'see the flaws' in themselves which furthers this self image - especially the E9 variety. They see themselves as being neutral and possibly even unappealing, which simply may not be the case in reality.

Sometimes EIIs are so unintentional about being sexy or flirting / returning flirts that they don't know what they are doing. They sometimes think they are just being normal, or are being nice, and don't realize how their actions could be seen as enticing to other people. That is not just 'my observations', I've heard EIIs say this themselves.

hmm I can sort of attest to this. I'm rather oblivious to how I physically appear and how my looks or mannerisms come off to others.
I would imagine most, if not all, Se PoLR's see themselves as appearing very awkward even if that isn't the case to others

Sometimes EIIs are somewhat unaware of 'bad situations' (sometimes they are also over-concerned about them, too). Examples: one EII I know wasn't quite aware of how her own beauty could lead to problems in a certain 'bad part of town' (we were in a place that she wasn't familiar with). She unintentionally wore something that showed off her body more than expected, and she wasn't sort of unaware of how it could have been trouble (been a lot more inviting than intended) if she had been alone. And again later, she even said herself "Ah, I was so foolish to just throw on my shirt and these pants (meaning tight stretch pants and a shirt with no bra), and thinking everything would be fine - we could just get in the car and go". But she didn't quite realize that a lot of things could have happened and that even though it was more comfortable to be that way, it was possibly risky given the place that we were going to. (The car broke down and we were in a somewhat risky place, so to say).

In short, sometimes EIIs are not particularly good at assessing the threat levels of situations (in terms of negatives). I think sometimes it's just easier for them to pretend like doesn't exist, and sometimes have trouble dealing with things that are vulgar.

Childish naivety about the world is probably one of the bigger problems with Delta NF's. I don't think it's so much that I don't want to believe that Se isn't real, it's just that I don't realize it, which goes back to why I call it a childish mindset
Though I think this sort of helplessness can also lead to a general timidity where the FiNe is overly avoidant of potential harm to the point of being irrational, which is sort of the opposite of the EII girl you described.

[UDP]

Childish naivety about the world is probably one of the bigger problems with Delta NF's. I don't think it's so much that I don't want to believe that Se isn't real, it's just that I don't realize it, which goes back to why I call it a childish mindset

Yeah - it's better for you to call it a childish than me, however

Though I think this sort of helplessness can also lead to a general timidity where the FiNe is overly avoidant of potential harm to the point of being irrational, which is sort of the opposite of the EII girl you described.

Yeah - I've seen different EIIs deal with it in different ways.

It still throws me off sometimes when EIIs do something, towards myself or someone else, that is totally not aligned with that their interpretation of their actions are. I think also some EIIs have a sense of entitlement about their naivete, which is rather strange.

[DirectorAbbie]

I know three LSE/EII couples.

I know two, both male LSE, female EII. One is middle-aged and has an overly domineering LSE. The other is older and is ideal.

[Solidad]

That would kill me. Ok, so maybe "kill" is an overly strong word, but it would wound me to the core and put a pretty much insurmountable barrier between the two of us. It's not something I could, or rather would choose, to endure. When in a relationship, I basically want to be the other person's sole object of affection (romantically speaking - obviously having friends and family is good). To me, if they're spreading their affection around like that then I don't mean as much to them

Well, I agree with you on many levels Minde...about how you would have felt crushed in some way - I *was* hurt but also just more confused & intimidated by a new relationship (1st time as duals for us both) --

Like you...Minde... I also used to need all the attraction vibes to be headed my way from my dual. But these days... romance & attraction/passion are not as important to me as friendship-love or a sense of on-going, strong family-love -- of safety and **trust** -- So, I just don't get jealous of this LSE (we are still friends now), even if the LSE is attracted to several other people beyond me... it might just be human nature for that person specifically....but I don't get my feelings hurt anymore...I know this LSE still loves me, supports me, & is my friend (even if not stating it as often as I'd like to hear or even if we don't hang out much these days)...

Overall, I know the most important need for the LSE is to focus on Te-filled job, running a business, & enjoying Fe partying for fun & relaxing downtime.... and I mainly just need more people in my life to make me feel safe.

I'm glad for a continuing friendship/respect with the LSE as a bottom line--

but I think that is partially because 10 years have transpired since that first relationship.....and also a sense of hindsight or perspective about what my TRUE needs are (versus wants)-- ya, so my dual lapsed in having clear attraction boundaries 10 years ago...

however, in the intervening years
I have experienced MUCH, much worse events in life (including escaping a relationship that became abusive, being physically threatened, stalked, & raped) those experiences truly shocked/traumatized me to my core & upturned everything for me in my family, job, school, life path, & psyche...including those experiences influencing my becoming very close to suicide a few years ago......

So, ya.....it is all relative... and being close to death (and knowing how little my life meant to so-called "close" friends or family at the time) ....really made me look in hindsight & massive appreciate to my old dual relationship. My dual never physically hurt me, never screamed or yelled at me, never sexually abused me, & never treated me like my life was worth nothing.

My initial post was more to show that dual relationships are not necessarily some rose-tinted glasses situation -- there are ups & downs & can be break-ups, wandering attraction ....

For me there was no Ozzy & Harriet kind of perfect communication-- sometimes I was too emotional for my dual & sometimes my dual did not give me enough physical & emotional attention... some times my dual complained to me & sometimes I was too flaky....and spaced out for the dual's strong need for an orderly household....
but the main thing is that when other people were taking advantage of my trust... & intentionally hurting me & using me...my dual did NOT ever do this! -

Also, my dual went through painful experiences such as being cheated on by a business partner who stole a majority of the profits from company & then bailed -- as well as losing work for several years (stressing the Te) -- and then dating someone that used the SLE's money to go to school & then dumped the LSE ---

So my dual has been used & hurt in ways ...that are different than what would affect me but I understand & have always supported this LSE in times when the LSE did not feel like anyone could be trusted --

I have never used my LSE for money & have never intruded on business matters --

and my LSE has never used my emotional trust to manipulate me---

We both have been through a LOT...& we try to have a live & let live attitude for each other (unless there is a crisis...and then we will come to each other's aid/defense)

I think these things bind us together despite how we are not in a romantic relationship now -- we have a history of "making it through" a dual break... so now our mutual support has deepened despite some rocky background between us... we've talked a bit more about this evolution as well...

And I suppose that was the real point of the post.

I didn't mean to complain about my dual "straying" ...which I now consider pretty insignificant (not to mention the SLE apologized later on for the event)

I really DO understand what socionics means when they talk about how when types are in *dangerous* or hostile situations.... that (despite problems & pitfalls) duals can often really hunker down & support each other

so, there is something hopeful...even at the end of some painful experiences.

Anyway, this isn't really directed at you, Solidad, more that what you said provoked a strong emotional reaction from me.

Hey Minde, thanks for your input!!... it is nice to get perspectives from other EII's. Although I'm feeling I just made a completely sloppy post but that's unfortunately how I write in stream-of-conscious mode ;-)

ps...Yikes! if my first post provoked a strong emotional reaction in you, I hope this one I'm posting right now doesn't upset you -- I definitely over-shared about my private life in this one

[UDP]

did you mean LSE?

[Minde]

So, ya.....it is all relative... and being close to death (and knowing how little my life meant to so-called "close" friends or family at the time) ....really made me look in hindsight & massive appreciate to my old dual relationship. My dual never physically hurt me, never screamed or yelled at me, never sexually abused me, & never treated me like my life was worth nothing.

My initial post was more to show that dual relationships are not necessarily some rose-tinted glasses situation -- there are ups & downs & can be break-ups, wandering attraction ....

True about the relativity bit. And I won't argue a bit about duality not being all sunshine and happiness. I'm not judging you, either, for your choices. I'm sure you handled everything as best you knew how, and I'm sad for the pain you went through.

so, there is something hopeful...even at the end of some painful experiences.

That is a good and encouraging observation.

Hey Minde, thanks for your input!!... it is nice to get perspectives from other EII's. Although I'm feeling I just made a completely sloppy post but that's unfortunately how I write in stream-of-conscious mode ;-)

ps...Yikes! if my first post provoked a strong emotional reaction in you, I hope this one I'm posting right now doesn't upset you -- I definitely over-shared about my private life in this one

Please understand that my reaction really had little to do with you personally and was in no way a judgment on you. That particular part of your story simply happened to touch on something that strikes a chord in me. I've never had to deal with some of the kinds of things you have, so I wouldn't be surprised if you are a bit stronger than me and better able to deal with things like that. As you said, a lot of it is relative.

did you mean LSE?

That's what I was going to ask.

[UDP]

Overall, I know the most important need for the SLE is to focus on Te-filled job, running a business, & enjoying Fe partying for fun & relaxing downtime.... and I mainly just need more people in my life to make me feel safe.

(I'm assuming you mean LSE)...
I don't really think it's a good idea for you to rationalize things in that way.

Also, I don't know what you mean by "Enjoying Fe and partying", but I don't particularly do either. I like to have a good time with my friends, but that is much more in line with making people feel safe than being against it. So I'm somewhat puzzled by how you are working all that out in your mind.

I'm glad for a continuing friendship/respect with the SLE as a bottom line--

but I think that is partially because 10 years have transpired since that first relationship.....and also a sense of hindsight or perspective about what my TRUE needs are (versus wants)-- ya, so my dual lapsed in having clear attraction boundaries 10 years ago...

however, in the intervening years
I have experienced MUCH, much worse events in life (including escaping a relationship that became abusive, being physically threatened, stalked, & raped) those experiences truly shocked/traumatized me to my core & upturned everything for me in my family, job, school, life path, & psyche...including those experiences influencing my becoming very close to suicide a few years ago......

my condolences

I had written a response to the rest of your post as well, but, I think it became too commandeering, so, I'll leave it at that.

[Solidad]

Lord love ya, but I think you've intellectualized your relationship past the point of rationality.

"intellectualized" "past....rationality"

heh, heh

tiny_dancer, I appreciate where you are coming from & using humor to get your point across!

However my Ti intellectualizing is what has really saved me in the last few years, when the majority of people around me were blowing smoke up my ass & haranguing me with endless "you should" and "you shouldn't" type biased statements, based off their own subjective value-systems.

My family has done this throughout my life but also...I've been in relationships in which people would slowly become abusive, insidiously interweaving the abuse with justifications & exhortations that I shouldn't try to *question* what was happening.

The person would say that It was "all in my head" or I "think too much"...or if I'm asking questions, then that shows I "don't love or trust.." the other person etc, etc... when REALLY that person didn't WANT me to *think* & *see* & *figure out* what the hell was happening -- classic obfuscation tactics ... to keep a partner emotional uncertain & intellectually in the dark.
--
Socionics (actually MBTI was the first that I looked into) was some of the first systems of thought that helped me with understanding that types & personality are very different w/ different needs, wants, & value systems --\\

Problems arise, when one person uses their type value system & then universally applies it to other people.

I know Ti is Polr for IEEs so it would make sense you would say something like this & I respect that it would be true for you --

but my tertiary is quite necessary for me to make sense of life, especially when I'm already inclined to be heavily influenced by other people's psychological pressure on me.

As P.T. Barnum has famously opined, "There's a sucker born every minute."

Intellectualizing helps me to be less of an EII "sucker" :wink:

*sigh* Been there. Done that.

Tiny_dancer, I'm sorry if your own situations and/or Intellectualizing have stressed you out...I really mean that....and I know I don't walk in your shoes...so Ti is probably a thorn in your side...which sucks.

but Ti use doesn't do that to me so I will keep applying it in the future, hopefully increasing my abilities at finding underlying patterns & principles in life.

Another cool bi-product of Ti....is that I am also able to have much better communication with many other T-based types IRL (without getting all emotionally offended by stuff).

[Solidad]

did you mean LSE?

Ack!!!

yes...oops (I just went back and editing the darn thing)

Thanks Ryu --

By the way, what weak function might have affected what I just did? weak Te? weak Se? or am I just dyslexic? lol!

Actually, I think I've been talking to shagbag so much about SLE stuff lately that SLE is on my brain -- oops---

[UDP]

By the way, what weak function might have affected what I just did? weak Te? weak Se? or am I just dyslexic? lol!

Actually, I think I've been talking to shagbag so much about SLE stuff lately that SLE is on my brain -- oops---

...I wouldn't be so quick to attribute to 'function's. It's something to be watched out for, using socionics to interpret too much.

You just made a mistake, that's all.

[Solidad]

Also, I don't know what you mean by "Enjoying Fe and partying", but I don't particularly do either. I like to have a good time with my friends, but that is much more in line with making people feel safe than being against it. So I'm somewhat puzzled by how you are working all that out in your mind.

Thanks for the questioning. I don't mean to imply that teriary Fe will be manifest in "partying" for all LSE...but for my Fe found some space for expression in a more laid-back fiesta environment...

My dual liked to work hard & then play (not necessarily hard) but on a sliding scale from watching TV, movies, to organizing parties... sometimes, actually my LSE dual was waaaaay more into going out & socializing than I was..

Perhaps that is from the extrovert side ...not totally sure...

Currently my old dual partner is part owner of a dance club is really enjoying using Te (manager) with Si (creativity) ...while also expressing Fe in that setting...with other friends...socially.... Also, the LSE feels that a space for fun is being provided for the community...thinking of other people's happiness (so maybe that is some Fi peeking through...not sure)

The LSE has explained that it is a balance to the more monotonous managerial day job. The LSE "lets off steam" in a way in that atmosphere.

Perhaps the confusion is due to subtype. My dual is an LSE Si subtype (which I understand is quite different in many ways from LSE Te subtype...which I've heard are more serious & focused with their energy)

-----

Quotes from wikisocion for LSE Si (the technologist):

"Possess a sense of humor. Their speech is abrupt and emotional; their smile is somewhat tense. Pulls together distance in dialogue through hospitable, friendly gestures – embraces and light touches....An aesthete with a taste for gourmet, they love original dishes and beautiful, expensive objects of quality. Are able to relieve pressures by sitting at a table with friends but rarely allow themselves the rest to themselves that they need. Have a tendency to corpulence, their movements are gusty, sharp, quick and impulsive; often embody a restless demeanor... Is less inquisitive than the logical subtype; Is very sociable, emotional, gregarious. Frequently hospitable; loves comfort and cosiness, and likes to spend leisure time in nature."

these ALL really applied to my old dual. Very outgoing, gregarious, always wanting to do new things, ....can relax at home... but also in more outgoing settings --

I know this doesn't mean that all LSEs are like this.

In fact, I don't know if I've met an LSE with Te subtype but I imagine they might be more quite & intense ...like the Bruce Willis character on Pulp Fiction -- --

my condolences

Thank you

I had written a response to the rest of your post as well, but, I think it became too commandeering, so, I'll leave it at that

Whatever you feel like doing in ok with me.

Though... I'm getting totally drained right now (I like Ti but I think I've exhausted its use while trying to process information during my post write-ups..for the last couple of hours) so I'm going to get off-line or at least stop posting for awhile. I probably won't be able to respond immediately.

[Solidad]

True about the relativity bit. And I won't argue a bit about duality not being all sunshine and happiness. I'm not judging you, either, for your choices. I'm sure you handled everything as best you knew how, and I'm sad for the pain you went through.

Thanks Minde :-)

Please understand that my reaction really had little to do with you personally and was in no way a judgment on you. That particular part of your story simply happened to touch on something that strikes a chord in me. I've never had to deal with some of the kinds of things you have, so I wouldn't be surprised if you are a bit stronger than me and better able to deal with things like that. As you said, a lot of it is relative.

Overall, I felt like you were empathizing with me, which I appreciated. :-)

you know, what is interesting ....is that I'm actually not getting stronger with weathering these situations. I don't know if I'm a freak of nature of if it is has to do with only types having Se as Polr--

But I have noticed that people who have Se in the 1st three functions or at least in the 5th & 6th block ...that they are the personality types that get stronger or tougher or at least aspire to strength after pulling through the flip side of difficulties.

This just is not happening for me.
I will forever be humbled & in someways have lost self-respect from enduring (& especially for fighting back at a certain point) in my past circumstances. I don't feel stronger or empowered....I'm just felt I had not choice & had to survive, to try to get away from dangerous people. But I still feel scared. I feel vulnerable. I feel alone a lot.......and the older I get, I seem to become mushier & yearning for Fi safety & happiness to happen...while my already crappy ability to handle Se is becoming wimpier. :frown:

It is weird, but I was a lot tougher in youth...now the reverse of the old adage ("What doesn't kill you....") is manifesting.... so rather than my toughening up.... I feel softer, more gentle, more acknowledging of my own mistakes, more sentimental, more empathizing, and emotionally open as I age.....& oddly enough my sense of humor is increasing. The other thing that is increasing is my Ti effect on my LEARNING. (possibly, this might make me sound robotic on-line, though I hope not)

So, I may not be tougher but I'm more able to understand, predict, & *avoid* similar circumstances (or people) by keeping my Ti honed to recognize similar patterns in the future. I try to listen to my true nature more than just letting other people tell me what "they think" is right for me all the time (which is what I mainly used to do). I still listen & respect other people & learn from them but I don't unquestioningly allow people to try to all-out emotionally program me, bully, or obfuscate anymore.

I mainly can just notice situations *faster* and take off running in the other direction if someone seems like an emotional con-artist or dangerous for me.

But I also tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, to be fair & because I adhere to the golden rule. Anyway, It is all a difficult balance. Overall, thanks again for you comments & empathy Minde...I appreciate it!

---
Oops!...I am realizing that I'm high-jacking this thread at this point - so I will cease & desist

(plus I'm tired & need to take a break from posting)

[Lobo]

I will forever be humbled & in someways have lost self-respect from enduring (& especially for fighting back at a certain point) in my past circumstances. I don't feel stronger or empowered....I'm just felt I had not choice & had to survive, to try to get away from dangerous people. But I still feel scared. I feel vulnerable. I feel alone a lot.......and the older I get, I seem to become mushier & yearning for Fi safety & happiness to happen...while my already crappy ability to handle Se is becoming wimpier. :frown:

Time to hit the gym , helps with self-confidence and energy. Overthinking also debilitates, especially when you entertain thoughts that serve no purpose but to induce fear. It's very hard to control this, at least for me it is, but I definitely believe it is possible.

Well, as for the ESTj parts, in all honesty, I find it hard to trust LSEs... I'm not talking about "please get me some milk from the store" and they bring it to you (in that sense they are trustworthy to a fault) but that I won't have an "inner world stepping upon." It's hard for me to describe it, but it's when someone is completely oblivious of how you perceive their actions, the meaning you have attributed to something that you find has been desicrated in a way. There is nothing hotter than a delta ST that is understanding and seeks to empathize, imo, not become some Te zombie.

[UDP]

Just as an intellectual exercise,

why is 'your old dual' not an SLE?

[UDP]

Time to hit the gym , helps with self-confidence and energy. Overthinking also debilitates, especially when you entertain thoughts that serve no purpose but to induce fear. It's very hard to control this, at least for me it is, but I definitely believe it is possible.

Well, as for the ESTj parts, in all honesty, I find it hard to trust LSEs... I'm not talking about "please get me some milk from the store" and they bring it to you (in that sense they are trustworthy to a fault) but that I won't have an "inner world stepping upon." It's hard for me to describe it, but it's when someone is completely oblivious of how you perceive their actions, the meaning you have attributed to something that you find has been desicrated in a way. There is nothing hotter than a delta ST that is understanding and seeks to empathize, imo, not become some Te zombie.

I'm noticing that people do seem to appreciate this a lot, and that too much of being a Te Zombie (I think that is a good term for it) seems to easily destroy people and situations.

(... that's why I decided to pull back on the other post)

[Marie84]

Yeah - it's better for you to call it a childish than me, however

Indeed

Yeah - I've seen different EIIs deal with it in different ways.

It still throws me off sometimes when EIIs do something, towards myself or someone else, that is totally not aligned with that their interpretation of their actions are. I think also some EIIs have a sense of entitlement about their naivete, which is rather strange.

Yah I can see what you mean. I often just expect things to go a certain way without really considering if those expectations are realistic. Or even worse, I expect other people to just deal with the things that I find scary or difficult.

[Marie84]

Thanks for the questioning. I don't mean to imply that teriary Fe will be manifest in "partying" for all LSE...but for my Fe found some space for expression in a more laid-back fiesta environment...

My dual liked to work hard & then play (not necessarily hard) but on a sliding scale from watching TV, movies, to organizing parties... sometimes, actually my LSE dual was waaaaay more into going out & socializing than I was..

Perhaps that is from the extrovert side ...not totally sure...

Currently my old dual partner is part owner of a dance club is really enjoying using Te (manager) with Si (creativity) ...while also expressing Fe in that setting...with other friends...socially.... Also, the LSE feels that a space for fun is being provided for the community...thinking of other people's happiness (so maybe that is some Fi peeking through...not sure)

The LSE has explained that it is a balance to the more monotonous managerial day job. The LSE "lets off steam" in a way in that atmosphere.

Perhaps the confusion is due to subtype. My dual is an LSE Si subtype (which I understand is quite different in many ways from LSE Te subtype...which I've heard are more serious & focused with their energy)

-----

Quotes from wikisocion for LSE Si (the technologist):

"Possess a sense of humor. Their speech is abrupt and emotional; their smile is somewhat tense. Pulls together distance in dialogue through hospitable, friendly gestures – embraces and light touches....An aesthete with a taste for gourmet, they love original dishes and beautiful, expensive objects of quality. Are able to relieve pressures by sitting at a table with friends but rarely allow themselves the rest to themselves that they need. Have a tendency to corpulence, their movements are gusty, sharp, quick and impulsive; often embody a restless demeanor... Is less inquisitive than the logical subtype; Is very sociable, emotional, gregarious. Frequently hospitable; loves comfort and cosiness, and likes to spend leisure time in nature."

these ALL really applied to my old dual. Very outgoing, gregarious, always wanting to do new things, ....can relax at home... but also in more outgoing settings --

I know this doesn't mean that all LSEs are like this.

In fact, I don't know if I've met an LSE with Te subtype but I imagine they might be more quite & intense ...like the Bruce Willis character on Pulp Fiction -- --

All of this could easily apply to an SLE, more so than LSE IMO.
I also think that Butch Coolidge was an SLE from my recollection...

[Solidad]

Just as an intellectual exercise,

why is 'your old dual' not an SLE?

hee, hee -- I thought you don't want me to over-rationalize things

You have now changed your mind, eh?

---

I actually had a relationship with SLE (prior to LSE relationship) -- so I think I know the difference --

In the beginning I really was drawn to the extroversion & flexibility & charismatic nature of the SLE (similar to what can happen initially with the 1st stages of conflictors.. they are drawn to differences in a positive way)

But within months...there was a lack of intensity, feeling I was taken for granted... a feeling of superficiality -- I felt like a token "girlfriend" ... to be seen & not heard ...or only existing as a prop to support the image of the SLE -- as EII I am fundamentally an individualist & this "token" feeling was a meaningless, unfulfilling, worthless feeling...

The SLE (in my particular experience) was more concerned about appearances of the group & social approval & prestige over repspect for our one-on-one relationship. The SLE used carrots of money, excitement, & glamor to win my interest (rather than just being accepting, protective, supportive, & honorable towards me). The SLE lied to me about feelings, had tantrums, played coquettish games with my head/heart, publicly slandered me (lied) to destroy my relationship with other people we mutally knew. There was lots of melodrama even after we broke up. I tried staying friends or working out some kind of understanding with the SLE...but SLE decided I was a political person to destroy...it kind of felt like the concept of "If I can't have the old toy I've always ignored (but nonetheless owned)...& someone else wants it...I'm going to break that toy so no one else can have it" It sucked ((but I guess another learning experience regarding finding out about those people I am not worth anything to (other than for challenges, games, and ownership, I suppose))

I actually like SLE types currently today... they are always charming & interesting & funny & smart.......but I know from my past that we aren't good for each other long term & so diplomatically... I avoid these relationships, though I try to be polite & respectful.

I know it is neither person's fault. ...we are just conflictors & it is not a healthy long-run scenario for either person...

-- too much head/heart games I can't handle - Ya, SLE are interesting or intriguing to me in some ways...but also painful & energy draining. I am already insecure about my body, my sexual nature, I get scared & insecure in intimate situations.. and once I get close to someone like that...it is devastating for someone to mess around with my head...once we are physically intimate... those are vulnerable moments for me truly....and I need to not feel shamed by someone once I have become intimate in Si ways that are sometimes (maybe exciting, primal) but nonetheless really scary & unknown for me -- The SLE did shaming that was hurtful for me at the time...
but I know I probably frustrated/ disappointed/angered SLE as well --
so it is not *their* fault...just we are conflictors
they are aggressor Se & I'm infantile Fi -- bad combo!!! :frown:

Needless to say that when I connected with my one & only dual LSE...(an intense moment for sure!!) -- my ex (SLE) was pissed beyond belief and I was pretty much black-listed as a human being at that point. It was an alpha-dog-type competition thing I think for the SLE as that point (even though we weren't even a couple so it shouldn't have even been like that..).... It was stressful all the way around back then- like I said...10 years ago, thank god... whew!

To me, there is big difference between conflictor & dual (in both magnetism & fundamental values) -- I haven't had a LOt of experiences with either type, though (especially with LSE)...so I'm sure I get my assumptions wrong sometimes...

Anyway...

How is that, Ryu?

I will call you the interrogator, from now on :wink:

Are you ESTJ with subtype Te (they are more detailed in questioning)

good cops, no doubt!:

[Solidad]

Well, as for the ESTj parts, in all honesty, I find it hard to trust LSEs... I'm not talking about "please get me some milk from the store" and they bring it to you (in that sense they are trustworthy to a fault) but that I won't have an "inner world stepping upon." It's hard for me to describe it, but it's when someone is completely oblivious of how you perceive their actions, the meaning you have attributed to something that you find has been desicrated in a way. There is nothing hotter than a delta ST that is understanding and seeks to empathize, imo, not become some Te zombie.

this is really intriguing me, Lobo -- I will think about this & respond later --

I'm literally in Ne limbo with this idea -- mucho interesante--

[Solidad]

All of this could easily apply to an SLE, more so than LSE IMO.

sure... I could see how these things I wrote would appear SLE to you. Do you also feel that the descriptions of LSE in Wikisocion are also incurate, vague, or crossing over to SLE?

Why or why not?

Have you been with an LSE or SLE... what was similar or what was the difference like?

I've dated both. I also have a LOT of SLEs in my family & life (both subtypes of Se and Ti)

What experiences could you point out that indicate a true LSE separate from what I described?

So your opinion of Bruce Willis in that movie was SLE -- that's cool

I just don't agree

I think John travolta was SLE in Pulp fiction.... & Bruce Willis was LSE

(big difference to me between the two -- Travolta (SLE) was more flexible, charismatic fast-talking charmer, joking, player... had attraction to girl but more loyalty to his hierarchical job & boss [aristocratic to me] & he was a pompous ass, treating Bruce Willis character like shit in the beginning of the movie, snubbing him while kissing ass to boss (which Bruce Willis character had to suck it up but remembered the pompous disrespect)...and, on the other hand....in complete difference to self-serving Travolta character... the Willis character showed a fairness to a random thug that was trying to kill him initially...but nonetheless he had empathy for & set free [democratic] at the end of that horrible scene) -- Willis character goes back for the watch -- a tie to his family.... maybe Fi sentimental... is somewhat rough with his girlfriend in demeanor ...but still ... takes care of her & doesn't physicaly hurt her or ...stays restrained...even though he is stressing...

he is fast, smart, efficient in crisis (still with empathy for others) restrained, sentimental, powerful, rough...but ...fair,
not a bragging type -- I maintain that I think Bruce Willis character is LSE archetype in Pulp Fiction

Travolta is famous for playing SLE types (like in Greece & Saturday Night Fever... even though he is definitely an introvert F-guy... maybe INFJ even)

Jesus, I had a hard time watching all of Pulp fiction... too much violence & sadistic stuff for me to watch! :-(

Anyway, just my take -

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Time to hit the gym , helps with self-confidence and energy. Overthinking also debilitates, especially when you entertain thoughts that serve no purpose but to induce fear. It's very hard to control this, at least for me it is, but I definitely believe it is possible.

I agree with this, sometimes it's better not to think, but to simply exist.

Well, as for the ESTj parts, in all honesty, I find it hard to trust LSEs... I'm not talking about "please get me some milk from the store" and they bring it to you (in that sense they are trustworthy to a fault) but that I won't have an "inner world stepping upon." It's hard for me to describe it, but it's when someone is completely oblivious of how you perceive their actions, the meaning you have attributed to something that you find has been desicrated in a way. There is nothing hotter than a delta ST that is understanding and seeks to empathize, imo, not become some Te zombie.

Indeed. I've known a fair few ESTj's who play the field behind their partners back, shamelessl imo. Fortunately, I have also known some who devote themself to the 'family' life. I understand everyone is different, but it sometimes intrigues me nonetheless, that people of the same type can have such a
different attitude to life, to morals - and to how their actions are perceived by others.

The only thing i've noticed, is that the ones who play the field, seem completely oblivious to how or what they say affects people, it's like they are retarded on some level which is only partially weak ethics related. The more family ones - the 'trustworthy' ones, seem to be more aware of their actions, funny, used to work with one such LSE who told me that no one liked him in the workplace, and he was used to it in workplaces. Personally I liked him, but I can see why others wouldn't. Perhaps it is better to be oblivious than not in that instance, although, I don't think he was particularly bothered, his concern was running the business and his family.

I almost worked for him, but decided that he makes a better work friend that boss, or at least, the odds seemed in favour of that.

[Marie84]

sure... I could see how these things I wrote would appear SLE to you. Do you also feel that the descriptions of LSE in Wikisocion are also incurate, vague, or crossing over to SLE?

There's generally a lot of similarities between Quasi-identical's so I can see why it would be easy to confuse them from reading descriptions, though the actual mannerisms and IE values are more apparent upon interaction or/and observation.

Have you been with an LSE or SLE... what was similar or what was the difference like?

I've dated both. I also have a LOT of SLEs in my family & life (both subtypes of Se and Ti)

The LSE's that I've met have been serious and polite, though I've known one, a female, who was a bit more zany and playful, though was always particular of not crossing social boundaries.
The few SLE's I've known well enough have been outspoken people and confident. All of them were good people, as far as I know. Two of the males liked to make a lot of intensely vulgar jokes and swore a lot in regular conversation. They all seem to really enjoy getting people to laugh.
I know one of them, a former classmate, told her friend that she thought I was boring and weird, I suppose it's because I tend to be a bit more serious and reserved than an Fe seeker would like, especially around people I don't know well.

What experiences could you point out that indicate a true LSE separate from what I described?

The LSE's I've know, thus far, don't tend to maintain a gregarious and fun-loving persona. They can switch it on from time to time but it's not part of their natural demeanor

So your opinion of Bruce Willis in that movie was SLE -- that's cool

I just don't agree

I think John travolta was SLE in Pulp fiction.... & Bruce Willis was LSE

(big difference to me between the two -- Travolta (SLE) was more flexible, charismatic fast-talking charmer, joking, player... had attraction to girl but more loyalty to his hierarchical job & boss [aristocratic to me] & he was a pompous ass, treating Bruce Willis character like shit in the beginning of the movie, snubbing him while kissing ass to boss (which Bruce Willis character had to suck it up but remembered the pompous disrespect)...and, on the other hand....in complete difference to self-serving Travolta character... the Willis character showed a fairness to a random thug that was trying to kill him initially...but nonetheless he had empathy for & set free [democratic] at the end of that horrible scene) -- Willis character goes back for the watch -- a tie to his family.... maybe Fi sentimental... is somewhat rough with his girlfriend in demeanor ...but still ... takes care of her & doesn't physicaly hurt her or ...stays restrained...even though he is stressing...

he is fast, smart, efficient in crisis (still with empathy for others) restrained, sentimental, powerful, rough...but ...fair,
not a bragging type -- I maintain that I think Bruce Willis character is LSE archetype in Pulp Fiction

I don't really see how any of this is incompatible with SLE's. Many SLE's are honorable people and can naturally fit into the role of a protector, they're not all thugs and amoral wife beaters.
In terms of Butch, I remember him being intensely aggressive and vulgar, which are generally qualities that LSE's try to avoid
I just looked-up some quotes to reminisce the character and I can't imagine an LSE's speaking like this Butch Coolidge (Character) - Quotes

"You feel that sting, big boy, huh? That's pride FU***N' with you! You gotta fight through that sh*t!"
"No, retard"
"F*ck! Motherf**king shit! Do you f**king know how f**king stupid you are? Shi*! Fu*k!"

[UDP]

hee, hee -- I thought you don't want me to over-rationalize things

You have now changed your mind, eh?

To the contrary, this was more to give you an opportunity to display how much (or little) rationalizing you have done.

I actually had a relationship with SLE (prior to LSE relationship) -- so I think I know the difference --

It's not a matter of you being able to differentiate the people, but whether or not you are applying socionics correctly

In the beginning I really was drawn to the extroversion & flexibility & charismatic nature of the SLE (similar to what can happen initially with the 1st stages of conflictors.. they are drawn to differences in a positive way)

But within months...there was a lack of intensity, feeling I was taken for granted... a feeling of superficiality -- I felt like a token "girlfriend" ... to be seen & not heard ...or only existing as a prop to support the image of the SLE -- as EII I am fundamentally an individualist & this "token" feeling was a meaningless, unfulfilling, worthless feeling...

I don't really see anything of substantial socionics value there.

The SLE (in my particular experience) was more concerned about appearances of the group & social approval & prestige over repspect for our one-on-one relationship. The SLE used carrots of money, excitement, & glamor to win my interest (rather than just being accepting, protective, supportive, & honorable towards me). The SLE lied to me about feelings, had tantrums, played coquettish games with my head/heart, publicly slandered me (lied) to destroy my relationship with other people we mutally knew. There was lots of melodrama even after we broke up. I tried staying friends or working out some kind of understanding with the SLE...but SLE decided I was a political person to destroy...it kind of felt like the concept of "If I can't have the old toy I've always ignored (but nonetheless owned)...& someone else wants it...I'm going to break that toy so no one else can have it" It sucked ((but I guess another learning experience regarding finding out about those people I am not worth anything to (other than for challenges, games, and ownership, I suppose))

I guess you've made some connections that would seem SLE or beta, but, it sounds like he was particularly not good to you, outside of socionics terms, as well.

I actually like SLE types currently today... they are always charming & interesting & funny & smart.......but I know from my past that we aren't good for each other long term & so diplomatically... I avoid these relationships, though I try to be polite & respectful.

I know it is neither person's fault. ...we are just conflictors & it is not a healthy long-run scenario for either person...

I feel like saying "sort of"

-- too much head/heart games I can't handle - Ya, SLE are interesting or intriguing to me in some ways...but also painful & energy draining. I am already insecure about my body, my sexual nature, I get scared & insecure in intimate situations.. and once I get close to someone like that...it is devastating for someone to mess around with my head...once we are physically intimate... those are vulnerable moments for me truly....and I need to not feel shamed by someone once I have become intimate in Si ways that are sometimes (maybe exciting, primal) but nonetheless really scary & unknown for me -- The SLE did shaming that was hurtful for me at the time...
but I know I probably frustrated/ disappointed/angered SLE as well --
so it is not *their* fault...just we are conflictors
they are aggressor Se & I'm infantile Fi -- bad combo!!! :frown:

I can see that being so.

Needless to say that when I connected with my one & only dual LSE...(an intense moment for sure!!) -- my ex (SLE) was pissed beyond belief and I was pretty much black-listed as a human being at that point. It was an alpha-dog-type competition thing I think for the SLE as that point (even though we weren't even a couple so it shouldn't have even been like that..).... It was stressful all the way around back then- like I said...10 years ago, thank god... whew!

To me, there is big difference between conflictor & dual (in both magnetism & fundamental values) -- I haven't had a LOt of experiences with either type, though (especially with LSE)...so I'm sure I get my assumptions wrong sometimes...

Anyway...

How is that, Ryu?

I will call you the interrogator, from now on :wink:

Are you ESTJ with subtype Te (they are more detailed in questioning)

good cops, no doubt!:

Thank you for answering the questions.

As far as my subtype, IDK. I've noticed my writing getting a lot more dry on the forum lately, and it seems very Te. But I was actually considering that I could be a Si subtype lately. I have a very strong Si-focus at times, and can be indulgent. But I don't know if that's really when I'm at my best. I had previously thought I was Te subtype, but, now I don't know.

Stirlitz was an interrogator, among other things, by the way.