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Thread: Ye know what I realized

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    Default Ye know what I realized

    This is not meant to be harsh.

    Alpha doesn't do anything. It is so damn weird to someone who spends all their time working. Se polr is weird.

    If this is not true, then fair, I mean I could be the aristocratic EIE here, however, it makes sense.

    Se is considered as volitional will. As such, what is no volitional will? A depressed lack of any expectation to achieve anything.

    Anyways that's what I got out of a person I discussed with as LII, literally the least achievement oriented person I've met. Makes sense if you look at reinens.

    Feel free to disregard or disagree, not everyone is LII, so there should be some disagreement from those not, and some kind of conversation from those who are.

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    I have lots of things I want to achieve, but I have a hard time focusing and mobilizing myself. I just wish I had focus and dedication. It feels orgasmic to actually be able to get something done, but my mind always wanders.

    From the one ILE I know, he has lots of Ne plans he wants to achieve and works hard at studying to become a computer programmer.

    Se Polrs do not care about status symbols or waving their achievements in someone else's face because they see no need to do so. They are quite content to pursue what they want without pressure or interference. Only LIIs are Se polr here.

    An alternative scenario is an Alpha asking why Gamma Quadra is so uptight and self serving, and always so serious and dry.

    Why doesn't ILI slow down to enjoy the little things in life?
    Why does ILI cares about petty achievements and pressuring themselves to work hard?
    Why does ILI always destroy the atmosphere with some Te remark?
    Why is ILI so self absorbed and uptight?

    Alpha does a lot of things, there are lots of ILEs and LIIs that work in STEM jobs and also make important contributions to STEM fields. ESEs and SEIs can be found working a lot of different jobs, mostly ethical and/or sensory.

    Every type is technically useful for something, even my conflictors and supervisees are useful. Gammas and Deltas must exist so that all the Te and Fi matters of this world can be solved by them.
    Sometimes your enemies actually help you in some distant way, as much as I hate to admit that.

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    Dunno, people say work very hard some say I don't work at all. That comes from the love of project not due to personal reasons sometimes pure novelty makes me do stuff that impresses others but no one is there in the next day... Maintenance and finishing stuff is really consuming. Boredom can give creative initiative but is just even more consuming if people do not let me butcher things.


    I have met some older LII's who become suddenly very teary at work (math teachers mainly). Seems like something has stand in their way and they have never had an opportunity to do something so they just try to survive. [Yes, they totally lack critical edge of ILI's.]
    Last edited by BrightDemonSheep96; 04-13-2021 at 09:40 PM.
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    All the LIIs that I know work very hard ... unless I have mistyped them?
    This is the kind of moment that I question all the time I spent learning about socionics, jungian shit. When I see that my knowledge does not coincide with that of others the only thing I want to do is to troll like khcs
    Last edited by Sah Kel Plaisir; 04-13-2021 at 10:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sah Kel Plaisir View Post
    All the LIIs that I know work very hard ... unless I have mistyped them?
    This is the kind of moment that I question all the time I spent learning about socionics, jungian shit. When I see that my knowledge does not coincide with that of others the only thing I want to do is to troll like khcs

    I think LII's are pretty hardworking, but most do it out of a sense of responsibility, especially normalising and dominant subtypes. LII's however do not care all that much about achievements, money, status etc., so there's a lack of motivation there to find jobs or projects.

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    My friend is an LII. He became the VP at a hugely successful start-up and retired before age 50. He’s one of the hardest working people I know.

    Se isn’t synonymous with achievement.

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    Expose me to any situation and I am like a litmus test for things that should be changed. Then my work is to make those changes happen

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alive View Post
    I think LII's are pretty hardworking, but most do it out of a sense of responsibility, especially normalising and dominant subtypes. LII's however do not care all that much about achievements, money, status etc., so there's a lack of motivation there to find jobs or projects.

    I agree with that but the opinion of op (unless I'm mistaken) is that LIIs don't want to accomplish anything in their life AND that they are lazy ("Alpha doesn't do anything") while in reality the average LII works much more than the average ILI

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    I don't think LII necessarily works more than ILI, it's more about external and internal factors not related to socionics. Depends on how motivated you are, on a scale of meh to I will fight to my last dying breath to have what I want.

    Most people don't have the last kind of motivation, regardless of type.

    Just find your passion in life and fling yourself into it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sah Kel Plaisir View Post
    I agree with that but the opinion of op (unless I'm mistaken) is that LIIs don't want to accomplish anything in their life AND that they are lazy ("Alpha doesn't do anything") while in reality the average LII works much more than the average ILI
    I think I'm the reason he made this thread haha. I had a discussion with him yesterday.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MidnightWilderness View Post
    I don't think LII necessarily works more than ILI, it's more about external and internal factors not related to socionics. Depends on how motivated you are, on a scale of meh to I will fight to my last dying breath to have what I want.

    Most people don't have the last kind of motivation, regardless of type.

    Just find your passion in life and fling yourself into it.
    If we are talking about work in the common sense of the term, work in a company or at school, then yes , in general a LII work hardest than an ILI. Ips have just less energy for work than other temperaments (which can vary with subtypes ,external factors of course)


    Quote Originally Posted by Alive View Post
    I think I'm the reason he made this thread haha. I had a discussion with him yesterday.


    Alright I see haha, so he would have misunderstood your message

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    Oh yeah I suppose so...

    EJs
    IJs
    EPs
    IPs

    in terms of energy for work if I am not forgetting

    I don't think that makes IPs lazy or anything in an overall sense.

    IPs can do things that IJs can't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MidnightWilderness View Post
    Oh yeah I suppose so...

    EJs
    IJs
    EPs
    IPs

    in terms of energy for work if I am not forgetting

    I don't think that makes IPs lazy or anything in an overall sense.

    IPs can do things that IJs can't.
    Yeah for sure, in bodybuilding for example, I do not think that XIIs would manage to keep up with the efforts that a SEI would make

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    Oh not me at all... too skinny and I would need to be pushed out of the house...

    My Bfs brother is an ESE and he is a bodybuilder though

    But I mean really, bodybuilding seems more Se than Si because you have to push yourself through pain

    No pain no gain

    But a cooking contest... maybe.

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    I'd say that alot of people here are misdefining what Se is supposed to be. It's more a kind of fighting, animalistic territorial thing than completion of goals. Sure the two are connected, but LII's that have impressive achievements exist in decent number, while LII/EII's who'd do well in a high-stakes high-stress competitive environment(especially physical based) is close to 0. In general, SEI is lazy is a more relaxed and hedonistic way, LII lazy in a complete inability to function in physically stressful/competitive environments, and ILE is a general unfocused and fight-avoidant way. I don't properly know any ESE's to say what they are, but they seem like they'd be the least lazy of all with a strong Se.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alomoes View Post
    Se is considered as volitional will. As such, what is no volitional will? A depressed lack of any expectation to achieve anything.
    wtf, thats not Se. If this were true every depressed fool would lack Se. I guess this is why some EIE mistype as SXE.. they think Se is confidence and willpower, kekw their shit Ti is showing. You are confusing psychosophy V aka volitional force with socionics Se.

    ...non central quadras are just not territorial or competitive enough and have an aversion to violence & aggression, especially EIIs and LIIs. Its Bruce Banner LII vs The Hulk SEE

    Force Sensation (F) — extraverted sensing; function of the psyche responsible for excitability and release of the accumulated aggression.

    F — Cognitively, state F means perception of strength-weakness.
    Thinking in this state is extremely concrete, grounded, objectified. It is
    necessarily accompanied by muscular sensations. Thinking technology F
    is most conveniently compared to probing or weighing an object. F thinking
    is non-verbal: it does not use words. A man who thinks by force
    sensation lowers his eyes down to the ground. He seems to be listening to
    his body. In society, a person with a persistent state of F pretends to be the force
    center of the group. He intervenes in the course of the group’s activities
    when it feels that it is necessary to accelerate, slow, or even
    change the direction of events. F-type as a conductor controls the group
    in one movement of the hand, turning the head or changing the position of
    the body, but he usually does not want to be in front of the group, to
    formally lead it. Therefore, another name for the F-role in society is an
    informal or shadow leader.
    Psychologically, the state of F is felt as complete self-confidence. Any
    doubts, worries, or reflections are incompatible with this state. There is a
    sense of mastery, wherever this person is. He has an attitude to win at any
    cost and has a strong nervous system and self control. The state of F
    rapidly mobilizes forces, preparing at any second to strike or repel a blow.
    All these are unambiguous psychological signs of the state F.
    At the physical level, this state requires a massive, full body. There is
    little movement, but all of them are committed firmly, in one jerk, without
    pauses. Notice the static posture of a man standing strong on both feet.
    The stare is sharp, close, and heavy. Under this stare you are being
    weighed, the balance of forces is assessed. Despite the solid grounding, the
    axis of rotation passes through the body: the state F is very dodgy: the
    body easily turns to either side, quickly reacting to a situation in front,
    behind, and from the side.

    SLE Khabib vs SEE Connor displaying Se from start to finish:



    how the fuq ppl confuse willpower and ambition with Se is beyond me. Nothing like it even in standard definitions:

    Extroverted sensing is an extroverted, irrational, and static information element. It is also called Se, F, volitional sensing, or black sensing. Se includes the ability to know how much power, force, or influence is latent or required. Types that value Se are much more comfortable with direct behavior aimed at making an immediate impact. This may at times be perceived as abrasive, particularly by types who do not value Se. There is usually a competitive edge to this style of group interaction, resulting in a more intense atmosphere than that of introverted sensing (Si)-valuing quadras. They appreciate contemplating possibilities only if they feel like they stand to gain something from it, or it has a perceived potential impact on "the real world". Unlike Si, which is about one's subjective sensory experience (how intense or enjoyable it is), Se is about achieving an object of desire. It gives one the ability to influence, bend, and push situations and people in order to achieve such an object, rather than to enjoy the situation one is in.
    Last edited by SGF; 04-16-2021 at 07:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alomoes View Post
    Alpha doesn't do anything.
    main work is done by ego functions of any types

    > Se is considered as volitional will.

    The main meaning of Se - perception of external surface materia. Following from this methods to solve tasks by materia manipulation as physical force, property, money.
    The link to general "will" is wrong. "Will" in the sense of dumb physical insisting - yes.

    read Jung + Filatova's book. this may reduce the nonsense in your head
    correct understanding of own type would help too
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post

    Force Sensation (F) — extraverted sensing; function of the psyche responsible for excitability and release of the accumulated aggression.

    F — Cognitively, state F means perception of strength-weakness.
    Thinking in this state is extremely concrete, grounded, objectified. It is
    necessarily accompanied by muscular sensations. Thinking technology F
    is most conveniently compared to probing or weighing an object. F thinking
    is non-verbal: it does not use words. A man who thinks by force
    sensation lowers his eyes down to the ground. He seems to be listening to
    his body. In society, a person with a persistent state of F pretends to be the force
    center of the group. He intervenes in the course of the group’s activities
    when it feels that it is necessary to accelerate, slow, or even
    change the direction of events. F-type as a conductor controls the group
    in one movement of the hand, turning the head or changing the position of
    the body, but he usually does not want to be in front of the group, to
    formally lead it. Therefore, another name for the F-role in society is an
    informal or shadow leader.
    Psychologically, the state of F is felt as complete self-confidence. Any
    doubts, worries, or reflections are incompatible with this state. There is a
    sense of mastery, wherever this person is. He has an attitude to win at any
    cost and has a strong nervous system and self control. The state of F
    rapidly mobilizes forces, preparing at any second to strike or repel a blow.
    All these are unambiguous psychological signs of the state F.
    At the physical level, this state requires a massive, full body. There is
    little movement, but all of them are committed firmly, in one jerk, without
    pauses. Notice the static posture of a man standing strong on both feet.
    The stare is sharp, close, and heavy. Under this stare you are being
    weighed, the balance of forces is assessed. Despite the solid grounding, the
    axis of rotation passes through the body: the state F is very dodgy: the
    body easily turns to either side, quickly reacting to a situation in front,
    behind, and from the side.
    This description of Se was super helpful and covered some gaps in understanding for me- thanks for sharing!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sojourn View Post
    This description of Se was super helpful and covered some gaps in understanding for me- thanks for sharing!!
    Types of information that relate to each aspect according to other Russian sources:

    White sensing Si : sensations, tastes, smells, well-being, tactile sensations;
    Black sensing Se : power, influence, abilities, authority, status, capital and money, resources, strength, endurance.
    White intuition Ni : trends, changes and the likelihood of events.
    Black intuition Ne : ideas, options for events
    White logic Ti : causes of phenomena, patterns and structure of something.
    Black logic Te : consequences of phenomena, technologies and skills.
    White ethics Fi : relationships between people (friend / foe, love / hate) and the assessment of something in principle (tasteful / tasteless, pleasant / unpleasant).
    Black ethics Fe : reactions to objects and events (laughter, crying, anger) and behaviors (giving gifts, greeting when meeting)

    Aspect "black sensing" <== the one in question in this thread

    The aspect of emergency situations includes, in a broad sense, information about the impact, that is, about how some material objects or phenomena can affect others. Its source is the material world. In addition to information about the direct perceived impact, this aspect can also include information about the potential impact (for example, I know that I am stronger than this person, so I can do him more harm than he does me).

    Emergency is an irrational, static, extroverted aspect. This means that we receive information about influences from the material world directly, and do not create it with the help of the psyche. The impact can be felt by yourself or by observing the world. At the same time, information about influences is abstract and not concrete, in contrast to information about sensations. This is the secondary nature of the emergency aspect with respect to the BS. For example, if something heavy falls on our foot, then our pain and other tactile sensations from this will relate to the BS aspect, and information that a negative impact has occurred that can cause harm and violate the integrity of the body is already an aspect of emergency. Another example: health as well-being, lack of discomfort is information on the aspect of BS, and health as a force, the ability to influence the world is already information on emergency situations.

    IMPORTANT: They often try to refer to the aspect of emergency situations as certain properties and inclinations of a person - his aggressiveness, authority, ability to subjugate people, a positive attitude towards violence. This is all fundamentally WRONG, since the emergency aspect itself is non-judgmental (i.e. it is just information about the impact, but not about how you like to influence and whether you like it at all). For example, when we build houses or protect the weak, this is also a certain impact on the world. Impact entails a change in the properties of objects, but does not necessarily imply destruction - it may well be a constructive action.

    Aspect "white sensing"

    The BS aspect includes information about those sensations that we receive through the senses. This is everything we see and hear, as well as tastes, smells and tactile sensations. This also includes information about our physical well-being - for example, if we are in pain, then this is information on the BS. Accordingly, the source of this information for us is the material world and material objects in it.

    BS is an irrational, dynamic, introverted aspect. This means that we perceive information on BS directly from the world, and do not synthesize with the help of the psyche. The information on the BS can be specified, that is, it can be identified in space and time (“at this moment I hear a sharp sound”).

    IMPORTANT: The BS aspect does not include: human skills and abilities (be able to cook, be able to dress harmoniously); people's preferences (love to eat, wallow on the couch); abstract concepts (quality, reliability).


    Aspect "white intuition"

    This is an interesting aspect, which is attributed to almost mystical properties. Either he is responsible for the ability to foresight, then he determines the luck of a person (a good combination of circumstances). It's actually much more mundane.

    As we remember, the source of intuitive information is what happens to the world. The BI aspect includes information about specific changes in the surrounding world, which we can observe directly. We can say that BI is a transition from one BS information to another. Just now it was cold for us, and now it is warm - this change of the material world (“warmed up”) is the information of the BI aspect.

    Of course, this can manifest itself more globally - for example, information on BI can be obtained by observing how epochs change, political regimes collapse and are built, different periods pass in the life of a person and society. Also, based on white-intuitive information, we can see various trends in the world around us (that is, to distinguish between recurring events). An example of such a tendency: a sound repeating at regular intervals is a rhythm. Based on trends, future events can also be predicted, which is why BI is often described as an aspect responsible for predictions.

    We remember that BI is an irrational, dynamic and introverted aspect. This is manifested in the fact that we perceive information on the BI aspect directly from the world through observation. White intuition includes specific changes in the material world that can be determined in space and time. Also, this aspect is primary, since we do not need additional information in order to interact with it.

    At the same time, it is worth remembering that the aspect of white intuition DOES NOT RELATE : magic, predictions, daydreaming, a tendency to fantasize, esotericism, focus on one's inner world, self-absorption and other inexplicable phenomena and personal qualities of a person.

    Aspect "black intuition"

    This aspect seems to be more understandable than BI, but many myths are also associated with it. The most famous of them are: “CHI is the essence of phenomena”, “CHI is a person's talents and abilities”, “CHI is an assessment of prospects”.

    I hope you understand how absurd and unattached to reality these formulations are. CHI is an aspect of information, therefore it describes information that exists in nature, and not the qualities of people and their skills. To be precise, the source of information on CHI is the events that happen and can happen in the world. This is the so-called "space of options" - everything that was, is, and can be. Moreover, the aspect of CHI itself is not associated with understanding the probability of one or another event (this is already the sphere of the aspect of BI, which is responsible for the vision of trends), these are options “in their pure form”, both real and unreal. Perception of information on the aspect of CHI allows you to invent alternative realities, come up with new ideas, see different ways out of the situation.

    At the same time, it is wrong to say that QI helps to assess a person's talent and his inner potential, since QI is information about events, and not about material objects (people). Well, if we consider the assessment of how likely the option is, where a person is realized and will achieve success, then this is BI (forecasting).

    You can also see that QI is described as the perception of a holistic picture of the world, and this is somewhat correct, since the QI aspect includes information about events as integral “pictures” (this is determined by the property of being static). However, these events can be both real and fictional. But to associate QI with understanding the essence of “without thinking” is fundamentally wrong, since understanding is always associated with the interpretation of the information received (and this is a sign of rational aspects). Here, the CHI aspect is attributed to the characteristics of the BL aspect, which we will talk about next. CHI, on the other hand, is an irrational aspect, and we simply “see” information on CHI, so to speak.

    Also, CHI is an extroverted aspect, which means that it is secondary to the BI aspect. Indeed, in order to form a complete picture of the event, we need to build on those specific changes that we can observe. To represent an alternative event, you need to imagine the entire set of changes in the world that must occur for it to happen.

    Aspect "white ethics"

    The BE aspect includes, first of all, information about estimates. “This is good”, “I like it”, “this is what I want” or “this is bad”, “it repels me”, “I want to avoid it” - these are all our assessments, or, to put it differently, our relation to various objects and events. Our values ​​are also formed on the basis of assessments (what is important for us and what we are indifferent to, what is desirable or unacceptable for us).

    You can often hear that information about human relationships refers to BE, and in a sense this is true, because people's relationships are their mutual assessment of each other. “This is a close, important, good person”, “this is a bad, hypocritical, vile person”, “this person is indifferent to me”. But your behavior in relationships is no longer related to BE information, as it manifests itself in specific actions (that is, this is dynamic information).

    White ethics is a rational aspect. Accordingly, information on BE is formed in the process of interpreting the information that we receive through the aspects of sensing and intuition. For example, we see some changes in the world and determine whether they are good or bad for us. Or we perceive the sensations, and draw a conclusion whether they are pleasant for us or not.

    Estimates, attitudes, values ​​are abstract concepts, and we can understand a person's attitude only through the reactions that he shows, generalizing them. Despite this, the assessment is primary, and it causes certain behavioral reactions (for example, if a person likes someone, he will often call or offer to meet). This is how the properties of static and introversion are manifested.

    And, of course, BE as an aspect does not determine the moral qualities of a person, his kindness, good manners, and ethics. BE is related to morality, since morality is a system of values, but the characteristics of IM does not depend on which moral norms will be closer to a person.


    Aspect "black ethics"

    The CHE aspect includes information about how we show our attitude to something in the outside world. These are our reactions, actions, behavior in general. For example, if a person is unpleasant to us, we ignore him, avoid him or communicate with him coolly. If a person is pleasant to us, then we do everything to interact with him more often, start a conversation, show affection. This is black ethical information.

    The ChE aspect is rational, dynamic and extroverted. How are these properties manifested? First, the reactions and actions of a person are regulated by his psyche, and are based on his interpretation of information about the world around him. Secondly, human reactions can always be concretized in space and time. Third, behavior is secondary to our relationship to something. First, we give an assessment to a phenomenon or an object, and then we decide how we should behave in accordance with our assessments.

    The most important MYTH about black ethics is that CHE is a person's emotions. However, if we proceed from the fact that socionics studies information, then it is easy to conclude that emotions are not information in themselves. This is just the state in which we are and experience within ourselves. But various emotional manifestations such as laughter, tears, smile, etc. may well be attributed to information on the SE aspect. According to them, we can determine the attitude of a person to the situation.

    Aspect "white logic"

    As practice shows, most people have a more or less adequate understanding of this aspect, but in addition to the main meaning, many additional ones are attributed to it, which clog the theoretical part of socionics.

    So, we said earlier that logical information is information about cause-and-effect relationships. In this case, specifically information about the causes of the phenomena relates to the BL aspect. It would also be correct to say that information about patterns also applies to this aspect, because the causes of events are the laws according to which the world functions. And, accordingly, it can be argued that BL is information about how the world works.

    The aspect of white logic is limited to this. But often other concepts are also referred to BL, such as structures, classifications, schemes, hierarchy, systems, order, law (in the legal sense), truth, justice, etc., without any theoretical justification. In this case, it misses the main essence of the aspect, and the BL aspect is linked to randomly selected concepts that are not connected by a single unifying property.

    Therefore, remember that BL is:

    - the reasons;
    - patterns;
    - world structure.

    And this is an exhaustive description of this aspect.

    White logic is a rational aspect, accordingly, information on BL (information about causes and patterns) is born after we interpret sensory and intuitive information. For example, we see that objects fall to the ground, and we come to the conclusion that the reason for this is the law of attraction.

    Also BL is a static aspect, which manifests itself in its abstractness. To highlight the patterns of what is happening, you always need to abstract from specific details and see something in common, not tied to a specific moment.

    In addition, the BL aspect is introverted, which means that it is primary relative to the CL aspect. The functioning of the world is based on patterns, and their particular manifestations are a consequence of their existence.


    Aspect "black logic"

    As already mentioned, BL is information about the reasons. As you might guess, information about the consequences belongs to the aspect of CL. What are “consequences”? These are particular manifestations of the laws of the existence of the world. There is a law of attraction - this is the cause, and the fact that specific objects fall to the ground under the influence of this law is already a consequence. This example clearly shows why the aspect of CL is secondary to the aspect of BL (the “extraversion” property).

    However, it is also true that we can deduce general patterns only when we collect enough information about their particular manifestations in our everyday life. Regularities are derived from observations of reality by means of generalization and abstraction. This is how the property “dynamism” works: CHL is always concretized information.

    The other side of the definition of black logic is that if we understand what will follow our actions (example: if I press this button, the computer turns off), we can form a certain technology. Technology is a way of achieving the desired result (or obtaining the desired consequence of our actions).

    Since CL is a rational aspect, information on it is not perceived directly from the world, but is formed in the course of the interpretation of sensory and intuitive information. So, if we watch the clouds thicken and then the rain begins, then the conclusion is formed: the rain is a consequence of the thickening of the clouds.

  20. #20
    Moharu's Avatar
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    LIIs I have known work hard than ILIs on average, but still can't compare with LIEs's work addiction. LII also take more responsibility in their work, when ILI may focus more on their own interests.

    EP get bore quickly. They have high energy but unstable.

    So I think Te lead and Ti lead are the most work hard people.
    Last edited by Moharu; 04-17-2021 at 03:11 AM.

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    Huh, not true at all. First of all depends on whether you're talking about ESE/LII or ILE/SEI because the former tend to be very hard workers and the latter are more lazy or "work smart not hard" kinda philosophy.

    >Se is considered as volitional will. As such, what is no volitional will? A depressed lack of any expectation to achieve anything.
    That's a very simplistic definition of Se. And regardless, SEI has 4D Se, ESE has 3D Se and are very much capable of exerting their will whenever necessary. ILE has 2D Se which is also effective at mobilizing will for shorter periods of time (say, I have no trouble working 12+ hours for a few days as long as I get a few days off afterwards lol). LII is bad at applying "force" but not at exerting will, in fact most LII are hard workers being introverted judging types. EII as well are exceptionally hard workers being Se-POLR so Se pretty much has nothing to do with working hard or not.

    Now where Alpha is different from other quadras because of unvalued Se is that they are not motivated by status but by comfort (Si > Se) and also they care about getting knowledge over credentials (Ti > Te) and so they aren't as motivated to go through school (though this may be because of my simplistic knowledge of Te lol ). So maybe they seem unmotivated from your point of view if you do not share those values.

    And just repeating what was said before, ILIs are waaay lazier than LII (in terms of energy levels). Simply the difference between perceiving lead and judging lead functions.

    >literally the least achievement oriented person I've met.
    That's probably because of the nature of Ne (vs Ni), Ne is short term oriented and thus doesn't think in terms of achievements but more like "seizing the day".
    For instance I never have true long-term goals, my goals are always shifting depending on the available prospects, my ever-changing interests, etc. So I set up very short-term goals to work on my ideas or honing my skills, things like "work on X 10 hours this weekend", "study X 1 hour per day", "exercise 1 hour per day" and so on. The goals don't even matter to me that much, I just enjoy doing random stuff and picking up tons of different skills. At any rate I keep myself busy for over 60 hours each week so I am hardly someone who "doesn't do anything".

  22. #22
    scientist donkey BrightDemonSheep96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Banana King View Post
    And just repeating what was said before, ILIs are waaay lazier than LII (in terms of energy levels). Simply the difference between perceiving lead and judging lead functions.
    Yeah. This one ILI on this board wrote that he had become more productive in an army. It has opposite effect on me. I suppose they thrive in those settings (for the speculative curiosity Donald Triplett's story in strict farm and how he got his fecal matter in more concentrated form there.).

    Working with ILI has made realize this: When I decide the "battle" they get activated to work on stuff and maintaining the place while I put resources together. Kind of twisted version of duality for both [mb something like CD/DA cognition working together].
    Last edited by BrightDemonSheep96; 04-18-2021 at 05:36 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SGF View Post


    Force Sensation (F) — extraverted sensing; function of the psyche responsible for excitability and release of the accumulated aggression.

    F — Cognitively, state F means perception of strength-weakness.
    Thinking in this state is extremely concrete, grounded, objectified. It is
    necessarily accompanied by muscular sensations. Thinking technology F
    is most conveniently compared to probing or weighing an object. F thinking
    is non-verbal: it does not use words. A man who thinks by force
    sensation lowers his eyes down to the ground. He seems to be listening to
    his body. In society, a person with a persistent state of F pretends to be the force
    center of the group. He intervenes in the course of the group’s activities
    when it feels that it is necessary to accelerate, slow, or even
    change the direction of events. F-type as a conductor controls the group
    in one movement of the hand, turning the head or changing the position of
    the body, but he usually does not want to be in front of the group, to
    formally lead it. Therefore, another name for the F-role in society is an
    informal or shadow leader.
    Psychologically, the state of F is felt as complete self-confidence. Any
    doubts, worries, or reflections are incompatible with this state. There is a
    sense of mastery, wherever this person is. He has an attitude to win at any
    cost and has a strong nervous system and self control. The state of F
    rapidly mobilizes forces, preparing at any second to strike or repel a blow.
    All these are unambiguous psychological signs of the state F.
    At the physical level, this state requires a massive, full body. There is
    little movement, but all of them are committed firmly, in one jerk, without
    pauses. Notice the static posture of a man standing strong on both feet.
    The stare is sharp, close, and heavy. Under this stare you are being
    weighed, the balance of forces is assessed. Despite the solid grounding, the
    axis of rotation passes through the body: the state F is very dodgy: the
    body easily turns to either side, quickly reacting to a situation in front,
    behind, and from the side.

    SLE Khabib vs SEE Connor displaying Se from start to finish:



    Extroverted sensing is an extroverted, irrational, and static information element. It is also called Se, F, volitional sensing, or black sensing. Se includes the ability to know how much power, force, or influence is latent or required. Types that value Se are much more comfortable with direct behavior aimed at making an immediate impact. This may at times be perceived as abrasive, particularly by types who do not value Se. There is usually a competitive edge to this style of group interaction, resulting in a more intense atmosphere than that of introverted sensing (Si)-valuing quadras. They appreciate contemplating possibilities only if they feel like they stand to gain something from it, or it has a perceived potential impact on "the real world". Unlike Si, which is about one's subjective sensory experience (how intense or enjoyable it is), Se is about achieving an object of desire. It gives one the ability to influence, bend, and push situations and people in order to achieve such an object, rather than to enjoy the situation one is in.
    so by this definition I am Se in my base block somewhere because I have been doing this since early, early childhood. Everything stated here I am closely familiar with, but I will argue that lifting my eyes to the horizon helped as a teen when I first read this description in a Carlos Castaneda book, in regards to building Power (source Power in this context is closely linked to socionics concept of Se, and not other classifications of Power)

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