On Free Speech. New video. 7 minutes, 17 seconds!
Politically Correct and Free Speech
On Free Speech. New video. 7 minutes, 17 seconds!
Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 03-15-2021 at 10:18 PM.
"A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........
"Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
attitude acceptable to today's standards." - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"
.
.
.
Are there any particular points you want talked about? I’m not really willing to spend 30 minutes listening to JP for no particular reason besides the fact you posted the video, and I suspect most people aren’t either.
Last edited by FreelancePoliceman; 03-13-2021 at 06:59 PM.
Good question. I will have to circle back to it!Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman
(I am past due for a soak in the bath with a good book).
"A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........
"Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
attitude acceptable to today's standards." - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"
.
.
.
In the year 2050:
> Hey granddad, during the era of global climate change, pandemics, domestic terrorism, and the rise of surveillance states, how were you active politically?
> Well grandson, I was fighting for your right to call someone a r3tard.
You can't speak out against anything if you're not allowed to speak. Freedom of speech takes priority, because so many other things depend on it.
What I see is a corralling of viewpoints, a "disinformation" crusade, and a silencing of some voices while amplifying others, all towards one state-sanctioned, big-tech approved, Hollywood cheered viewpoint, and anything else is "wrongthink," to be crushed immediately. We need dissent to even have any other freedoms at all. You need to be able to speak against your government, against tyrants in all forms, to have opposing viewpoints aired. Otherwise you end up marching everyone silently towards totalitarianism.
Squark, I agree with a number of your points.
* I also don't like the political correctness coming from the left, which has all the qualities of a newfangled middle class moralism --- one which imposes form over substance, like all moralism; and which is really an attempt to fill the void of polite manners created by the 1960's cultural upheavals, upheavals which kick-started this unending renegotiation of our social contract.
* Hollywood's representation of previously sequestered groups is, in principle, positive, and the desire to correct their marginalization is natural. One does, however, get the impression that good storytelling sometimes takes a backseat to bland, itemized checklists of carefully curated, politicized themes. The message (that all human beings are equal) is fundamentally good but is presented as instruction, with the intent to indoctrinate the audience, rather than through dialogue and realization.
* Your point about the intolerance (by activists and social media monopolies) of dissenting voices is also well-taken. There is a nascent authoritarianism here which deserves to be fought.
So, what's the issue? The counter-crusade against political correctness is being led by worse authoritarians than what Hollywood has produced. No one who supports forced hysterectomies isn't an authoritarian. No one who supports the removal of net neutrality isn't an authoritarian. The importance of net neutrality cannot be overstated, and its removal, by the Trump administration, dwarfs social media's threat to freedom of speech.
But there's a deeper issue that I wanted to draw attention to, which is that freedom can itself be stifled by irreverence. Freedom of speech isn't about flapping your lips. Speech is a tool that's intended to convey thought, and irreverence (alongside propaganda and conspiracy theorizing, or any other form of speech that assaults the senses rather than appeal to reason) is a form of loud speech that drowns out careful, considerate, and well-researched speech. How much freedom do you really have to discuss serious issues on the Jerry Springer Show? You can turn off the Jerry Springer show when it's on TV. You can't turn it off when it inundates the public square and becomes your democracy.
There's a time and place for vulgarity (and I'm certainly a fan of it), but this discussion has overshadowed more important discussions. Politics is serious business about issues of life and death; it is trivialized by the the fact that saying "r3tard" is the leading controversy of our time.
Last edited by xerx; 03-16-2021 at 02:54 AM. Reason: slight reword
@Eliza Thomason
If you care about so-called "free speech", why do you follow an ideology that promises the torture of most of humanity for how they think?
Improving your happiness and changing your personality for the better
Jungian theory is not grounded in empirical data (pdf file)
The case against type dynamics (pdf file)
Cautionary comments regarding the MBTI (pdf file)
Reinterpreting the MBTI via the five-factor model (pdf file)
Do the Big Five personality traits interact to predict life outcomes? (pdf file)
The Big Five personality test outperformed the Jungian and Enneagram test in predicting life outcomes
Evidence of correlations between human partners based on systematic reviews and meta-analyses of traits
Who wants to cancel free speech?
[1hour, 47 min.] That's long, but you can start it about anywhere and you will want to keep listening.
The canceling of free speech is covered from every direction in this talk. Including the silly students outside trying to cancel this speaking engagement.
Some random quotes:
"We are getting to the point where a certain kind of language, a certain kind of dialog is approved and alright, and a certain kind is not."
"Why do people wish to destroy?", asks Petersons, a therapist, among other things. He explains: "It's because they are hurt by life, and they're resentful. And resentful people become - vengeful. And vengeful people become dangerous..." He concludes, "It's destruction that motivates it... masquerading as compassion."
Also discussion on the "...pathological elements of left wing thought."
The Q& A, more than half of this video, is super interesting. Two in particular stand out, one at 1:18:53 (perspective of a thoughtful Muslim student, and great advice and encouragement to him from Peterson in response), and another at one at 1:33:53 (Peterson's response to his leftist viewpoint question).
"A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........
"Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
attitude acceptable to today's standards." - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"
.
.
.
Remember the kids in cages and the migrant women being given forced hysterectomies at the border?
The best way they'd get any attention today would be by calling someone a r3tard on Twitter, getting their accounts banned, and getting Tucker Carlson to point out the hypocrisy of political correctness. Remember: the real human rights violation is getting yelled at by obese, pink-haired feminists, not having your uterus pulled out by Don the Ripper (or is it Joe the Ripper now?).
Straight white people whining about not being able to "speak their mind" (aka not having to give a shit about others) are so 2020.
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
Ad hominem
This is the comment you are looking for
****** ****** ****** ****** ****** ****** ****** ******
I like Eliza but I agree I don't really know where this victim racket is coming from- I don't see Christians as some oppressed group who can't speak their minds. There's a lot of you- you have power. In my home town alone- it's fairly conservative and I see pro-religious billboards and banners all the time. But it's like you get so upset that not everybody is into religion like you are.
We're both against the Deep State Reptilian government mind control thing- but that is often actually mixed in with religion and Christianity. Many people working for the government and governmental agencies are also religious- so how do you explain that? lol at Kim Davis. But <3 forum @Kim
And I agree there is definitely "dark nefarious forces" trying to control and Thought Police what people say or whatever but I don't think they are against Christians specifically or it's about a war on religion - I think it's how they pretty much treat everybody no matter who you are. They treat Satanists the same way really...
I didn't make this thread to say that Christians in particular are a victim of censorship, though I do think we are common targets, among many others. Free speech is fundamental to ALL of us, and to give a legal foothold to its loss is a serious threat. Peterson is a HERO to us all for defending it.
I agree that there are many things that are more obviously, frighteningly wrong. Also the slaughter of abortion is an intrinsic evil. All three of these things matter, even though two of them (the slaughters we both mention) take less thought to arrive at the conclusion that they matter. But I know I need to limit the time of thinking on this to five minutes, so I will do that below. Peterson makes it a very succinct case for free speech in the 27 min. video at the top of this thread, though. Very satisfyingly and frighteningly clear.
Thank you Kim for Exhibit A. This is EXACTLY what Peterson explained in the 27 minute clip above, the one you commented on without listening to. (It doesn't make for intelligent discussion when you don't read/listen to what you comment on.)
What you say here is an EXACT example of how we are being taught to think by universities, the media, and leftwing politics. We are not individuals. We are our tribal group. We don't have individual thoughts - so how can free speech be an issue?
(That is why you didn't listen to the video, right? Because it is about free speech - and how can that matter?)
We are NOT individuals, we are TRIBE MEMBERS. We are whites, blacks, gays, straights - and what we think is what our tribe thinks.
(So you don't even have to ask! Just accuse! Because you already know!)
So we see here exactly how people can so easily accuse us, so boldly tell us what we think, what is in our minds, what is in our thoughts and what our motivations are. They look at us not as an individual, but a tribe, so they can tell us what we think. You are white, so you think this. Etc.
It's very racist. And it's uncivilized, it's unkind, it's false, and it leads to resentment, to hate and to violence. That is what that kind of thinking does. I think we all know that after 2020, too.
As Peterson explains clearly in the video, at the top of this thread, that very mindset you show us here, which is being foisted on us in our times, will be the rapid and violent ruin of our country.
[@FreelancePoliceman, here are some summarized points you asked for. Points briefly made. For anyone who wants more moderate, vs. brief, explanation, there is the clip at the top of this thread. for long explanations, see the whole videos].
Five minutes of points on this topic:
Why is it that the ideologues of our day won't consider the individual (so naturally, free speech doesn't matter):
2 minutes, 24 seconds: 18:01 -20:25
https://youtu.be/dOmJx8mTnm8?t=1081 (link is set to start at 18:01)
What you learn at university (and the media, and leftwing politics): The appalling view of tribal belonging, to the sacrifice of the individual.:
2 minutes 29 seconds! 17:06-18:35
https://youtu.be/UZMIbo_DxJk?t=1026 (link is set to start at 17:06)
Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 03-15-2021 at 04:52 AM.
"A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........
"Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
attitude acceptable to today's standards." - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"
.
.
.
I don't need to listen to the video because I am quite familiar with JP - I was even his colleague once. There is freedom of speech and there is hate speech. There is also common decency. I grew up in a country where Nazi propaganda is illegal and I never suffered a single bit for it. You are against protecting the dignity of another person so you can say whatever you want? So by that logic, I can call you an "ignorant cunt" (note that I am not actually calling you that) and that's fine, yes?I didn't make this thread to say that Christians in particular are a victim of censorship, though I do think we are common targets, among many others. Free speech is fundamental to ALL of us, and to give a legal foothold to its loss is a serious threat. Peterson is a HERO to us all for defending it.
I agree that there are many things that are more obviously, frighteningly wrong. Also the slaughter of abortion is an intrinsic evil. All three of these things matter, even though two of them (the slaughters we both mention) take less thought to arrive at the conclusion that they matter. But I know I need to limit the time of thinking on this to five minutes, so I will do that below. Peterson makes it a very succinct case for free speech in the 27 min. video at the top of this thread, though. Very satisfyingly and frighteningly clear.
Thank you Kim for Exhibit A. This is EXACTLY what Peterson explained in the 27 minute clip above, the one you commented on without listening to. (It doesn't make for intelligent discussion when you don't read/listen to what you comment on.)
What you say here is an EXACT example of how we are being taught to think by universities, the media, and leftwing politics. We are not individuals. We are our tribal group. We don't have individual thoughts - so how can free speech be an issue?
(That is why you didn't listen to the video, right? Because it is about free speech - and how can that matter?
We are NOT individuals, we are TRIBE MEMBERS. We are whites, blacks, gays, straights - and what we think is what our tribe thinks.
(So you don't even have to ask! Just accuse! Because you already know!)
So we see here exactly how people can so easily accuse us, so boldly tell us what we think, what is in our minds, what is in our thoughts and what our motivations are. They look at us not as an individual, but a tribe, so they can tell us what we think. You are white, so you think this. Etc.
It's very racist. And it's uncivilized, it's unkind, it's false, and it leads to resentment, to hate and to violence. That is what that kind of thinking does. I think we all know that after 2020, too.
As Peterson explains clearly in the video, at the top of this thread, that very mindset you show us here, which is being foisted on us in our times, will be the rapid and violent ruin of our country.
[@FreelancePoliceman, here are some summarized points you asked for. Points briefly made. For anyone who wants more moderate, vs. brief, explanation, there is the clip at the top of this thread. for long explanations, see the whole videos].
Five minutes of points on this topic:
Why is it that the ideologues of our day won't consider the individual (so naturally, free speech doesn't matter):
2 minutes, 24 seconds: 18:01 -20:25
https://youtu.be/dOmJx8mTnm8?t=1081 (link is set to start at 18:01)
What you learn at university (and the media, and leftwing politics): The appalling view of tribal belonging, to the sacrifice of the individual.:
2 minutes 29 seconds! 17:06-18:35
https://youtu.be/UZMIbo_DxJk?t=1026 (link is set to start at 17:06)
Has it ever occurred to you that identity politics stems from resistance against oppression?
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
Why Identity Politics Lead to Totalitarian Oppression
3 minutes!
Why Identity Politics Lead to Totalitarian Oppression
"A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........
"Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
attitude acceptable to today's standards." - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"
.
.
.
What's wrong with Identity politics
Tribes. Whites, Blacks. Gays, Straights. Etc. Etc.
"A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........
"Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
attitude acceptable to today's standards." - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"
.
.
.
Real free speech: having to put up with gore on 4chan
What people mean by free speech: Free speech for me but not for thee.
most people hate free speech even free speech advocates. Even conservatives are politically correct according to their own standards, they won't tolerate gore, dick pics, and whatever else trash lol.
: DDDD Brove me wrong, you gand!! Benis..
Last edited by SGF; 03-15-2021 at 06:33 AM.
So has he actually said anything new since he first came out? He did say something about cleaning your room and being a personal dictator to yourself afterwards but he sounds like a broken record nowadays. Rinse, repeat and connect the dangling thingys.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
a voice of reason
"There is a difference between ideas that are hateful and ideas that make us uncomfortable."
"A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........
"Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
attitude acceptable to today's standards." - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"
.
.
.
People demand freedom of speech as a substitute for freedom of thought, which they avoid.
It's through freedom of speech that freedom of thought acquire it's value.
You use your "freedom of speech" to talk about conspiracy theories, and have "debates" about whether the Earth is really flat or not. They probably do more harm than good, or at the very least they're just useless noise that drown out more important matters. And then squark is agreeing with you for political reasons. And then you go on about how this is all "tribal". You're not defending freedom of speech for the sake of it, but you just don't want certain speech that is affiliated with certain political positions to be criticized. Or you're just going along with people like Jordan Peterson, whom also does not want his speech to be criticized by anyone.
FWIW, "freedom of speech" is about not having any speech by citizens censored by the government. Private corporations not allowing whatever that they don't like on their own platform is fair game. These days "freedom of speech" is twisted into meaning "I have the right to say whatever that I want without being criticized or having any consequences".
Lol, 100% agree.
So, is this a bad thing? Anything that the media or politicians label as a "conspiracy theory" - and that is a LOT of things - should all these so-labeled things be disallowed from speech?
Oh, really? well you have not read that thread, or put thought and discernment into what I wrote before you accused.
You may be trained to never dare to listen or consider anything said to be a conspiracy theory, but not me. (Yes, I know, there are two groups only! The ones who would consider the claims of a conspiracy - and they are CRAZY, and everyone else, who is not).
I looked into flat earth theory because I thought it would be interesting to consider the claims of the most ridiculous conspiracy theory that exists. I posted here the day after I began to think about it, and got pounced on.
I simply shared that I was quite surprised that in these arguments for flat earth there are some really interesting and very real puzzles to consider. Like why can no one measure earth's curvature? We can theorize what the curvature is, but no one can actually measure it. If anyone scientifically does measure it, it reads as flat. My husband was quite disinterested in the topic until this impossible assertion peaked his interest, and he decided to check out this claim for himself, in his way, by going right to the original sources of the scientists who did the actual scientific measuring. It is QUITE interesting for the truly science-minded.
But the purpose of that round earth thread was just to share my interesting finds, while I sought to unearth just WHERE these flat earth folks went crazy with their crazy idea. For that purpose I gave the theory a listen to. I never called myself a flat earther, but people like to label people, as for some reason they are compelled to put people in groups or tribes, so that is what they do. But I kept telling the accusers I was just interested in learning. I just reported my surprise that there are some pretty strange scientific realities in some of the arguments. But no one wanted to know. The media tells them that conspiracy theorists are all crazy! Anything they say can be discounted with the first thing that pops in your head in response! No consideration or clarification necessary! Because you know everything already, there is nothing new out there! And everything the media or the government or our wonderful education system tells us we are supposed to think of a thing is ALL TRUE!!
But I instead dared to consider a conspiracy theory. That curiosity was my goal is obvious to anyone who read the thread seeking my actually-stated intentions. But real intentions and real motives is not what interests folks. They see a thread like that and are SO EXCITED for the chance to explain everything they know about what they learned in high school science class - as if everyone else didn't also learn the exact same things in school. They can't wait to tell someone that they are stupid, instead of smart, like themselves.Well, I became bored with that a long time ago and most of the pages [after those first ones, where I wasted hours foolishly responding to folks of genuine ILL WILL] are pages and pages folks grabbing an easy opportunity to show how smart they are.
But thanks for being yet another person anxious to express your superiority becasue it made me just now remember that since I started that thread, I can close it, and I just did. Now someone else can start their own flat earth thread, and if they can goad someone to come on it they will have a new place of their own to mock and pose. Have at it. I don't care any more about the topic. There are a lot more important things to care about. Like Home Decoration! See my thread in the Lifestyle sub forum!
Yes! It is harmful for people to talk out loud about just any old thing, instead of things we deem as more important! We need to control this terrible problem! Lets make laws disallowing conspiracy theorists to speak! And if people don't like our laws and become conscientious objectors, we can disembowel them and farm their organs out to more worthy, obedient people, like they do in China! Communism is good. What a fine example for us!
Oh really? Is that what I think? I never said anything such thing. But you say you know ulterior motives. Wow, you are so AMAZING that you can do that!
A fine judge you are! 5000 people must be pretty stupid when they all showup for a two hour lecture on his lecture tour.
No. You know nothing. Not a single interviewer would say that of him. But you do, so it's clear you haven't listened to a single one of his lectures. You know nothing of the man.
No. There is much more to it than that.
So you say.
Twisting by you, but that is not what happens with thinking people. You should listen to some thinking people discuss the matter.
"A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........
"Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
attitude acceptable to today's standards." - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"
.
.
.
lmao
You had a rather different response when I doubted the historical and supernatural Jesus, as well as other claims relating to the religion you follow. You insulted me repeatedly too. Also, you have written disparaging comments about other religions, which makes you hypocritical to not allow analysis of the religion you follow.So, is this a bad thing? Anything that the media or politicians label as a "conspiracy theory" - and that is a LOT of things - should all these so-labeled things be disallowed from speech?
Oh, really? well you have not read that thread, or put thought and discernment into what I wrote before you accused.
You may be trained to never dare to listen or consider anything said to be a conspiracy theory, but not me. (Yes, I know, there are two groups only! The ones who would consider the claims of a conspiracy - and they are CRAZY, and everyone else, who is not).
I looked into flat earth theory because I thought it would be interesting to consider the claims of the most ridiculous conspiracy theory that exists. I posted here the day after I began to think about it, and got pounced on.
I simply shared that I was quite surprised that in these arguments for flat earth there are some really interesting and very real puzzles to consider. Like why can no one measure earth's curvature? We can theorize what the curvature is, but no one can actually measure it. If anyone scientifically does measure it, it reads as flat. My husband was quite disinterested in the topic until this impossible assertion peaked his interest, and he decided to check out this claim for himself, in his way, by going right to the original sources of the scientists who did the actual scientific measuring. It is QUITE interesting for the truly science-minded.
But the purpose of that round earth thread was just to share my interesting finds, while I sought to unearth just WHERE these flat earth folks went crazy with their crazy idea. For that purpose I gave the theory a listen to. I never called myself a flat earther, but people like to label people, as for some reason they are compelled to put people in groups or tribes, so that is what they do. But I kept telling the accusers I was just interested in learning. I just reported my surprise that there are some pretty strange scientific realities in some of the arguments. But no one wanted to know. The media tells them that conspiracy theorists are all crazy! Anything they say can be discounted with the first thing that pops in your head in response! No consideration or clarification necessary! Because you know everything already, there is nothing new out there! And everything the media or the government or our wonderful education system tells us we are supposed to think of a thing is ALL TRUE!!
But I instead dared to consider a conspiracy theory. That curiosity was my goal is obvious to anyone who read the thread seeking my actually-stated intentions. But real intentions and real motives is not what interests folks. They see a thread like that and are SO EXCITED for the chance to explain everything they know about what they learned in high school science class - as if everyone else didn't also learn the exact same things in school. They can't wait to tell someone that they are stupid, instead of smart, like themselves.
But thanks for being yet another person anxious to express your superiority becasue it made me just now remember that since I started that thread, I can close it, and I just did. Now someone else can start their own flat earth thread, and if they can goad someone to come on it they will have a new place of their own to mock and pose. Have at it. I don't care any more about the topic. There are a lot more important things to care about. Like Home Decoration! See my thread in the Lifestyle sub forum!
Yes! It is harmful for people to talk out loud about just any old thing, instead of things we deem as more important! We need to control this terrible problem! Lets make laws disallowing conspiracy theorists to speak! And if people don't like our laws and become conscientious objectors, we can disembowel them and farm their organs out to more worthy, obedient people, like they do in China! Communism is good. What a fine example for us!
Oh really? Is that what I think? I never said anything such thing. But you say you know ulterior motives. Wow, you are so AMAZING that you can do that!
A fine judge you are! 5000 people must be pretty stupid when they all showup for a two hour lecture on his lecture tour.
No. You know nothing. Not a single interviewer would say that of him. But you do, so it's clear you haven't listened to a single one of his lectures. You know nothing of the man.
No. There is much more to it than that.
So you say.
Twisting by you, but that is not what happens with thinking people. You should listen to some thinking people discuss the matter.
And you probably won't even read this unless someone happens to quote it because it seems you put me on ignore when I voiced my displeasure at your insults.
Improving your happiness and changing your personality for the better
Jungian theory is not grounded in empirical data (pdf file)
The case against type dynamics (pdf file)
Cautionary comments regarding the MBTI (pdf file)
Reinterpreting the MBTI via the five-factor model (pdf file)
Do the Big Five personality traits interact to predict life outcomes? (pdf file)
The Big Five personality test outperformed the Jungian and Enneagram test in predicting life outcomes
Evidence of correlations between human partners based on systematic reviews and meta-analyses of traits
@Eliza Thomason
Yes. Well. You obviously have some kind of an ability in properly understanding things in a logical way. It's just that you have a tendency to believe in weird things and strange people with strange theories. You should put that ability to good use, instead of delving into "alternative" sources. Maybe squark can help you with that.
If this is about @Eliza Thomason protesting about some of her threads being locked:
Her argument should mean that I am also free to say whatever I like in her own home.
Also, I get the impression that she has put me on ignore: this does not strictly limit my freedom of speech, but it is a form of censure all the same.
I'm not American, so I'm probably not as inclined to see "freedom of speech" as an absolute right. Certainly, if it infringes on the freedoms of other people, then I disagree with it. Shouting "FIRE!!!" when there is no fire, or spreading lies about coronavirus vaccinations are actions that are liable to be harmful to other people.
Improving your happiness and changing your personality for the better
Jungian theory is not grounded in empirical data (pdf file)
The case against type dynamics (pdf file)
Cautionary comments regarding the MBTI (pdf file)
Reinterpreting the MBTI via the five-factor model (pdf file)
Do the Big Five personality traits interact to predict life outcomes? (pdf file)
The Big Five personality test outperformed the Jungian and Enneagram test in predicting life outcomes
Evidence of correlations between human partners based on systematic reviews and meta-analyses of traits
exactly.
The problem with this mindset is who is deciding it is disinformation? I've watched time and again verifiable info be labeled "disinformation" while outright lies are passed off as fact. But because it's some official sanctioned approved source nobody bothers to check. They just believe.
You can't allow a specific group (who are extremely biased themselves, even if they pretend not to be) to be the filters and decide for you what is true and not. This war on disinformation is a propaganda war - it's a fight to get their own message out to people, and make them believe that no other sources are worth even looking at. And it's apparently working on those that trust them. They are the church, you are the believers in that church, and their goal is to shut down all dissent.
I think it's better not to fully trust any media. Know that all of them are propaganda, and cross-check all of them. Look into things for yourself, and don't allow anyone to do the thinking for you.
There is no solution except for better education. And not just for newspaper readers, but for the journalistic class as well. I'm not a journalist, and this is all theory and speculation, but my sense is that the oversimplification of news isn't always the result of carefully manufactured propaganda or biased editing. Although bias is a permanent feature of the news, as you'd know if you've payed even a little bit of attention over the past few centuries, a lot of misleading and unnuanced reporting probably boils down to mistakes made by journalists and editors.
In the case of journalists considering writing deliberate propaganda, a better-educated class of colleagues would make it embarrassing to relay false or spin-doctored information. Wanting to avoid embarrassment can be a powerful motivator to be truthful and dilligent, and so can wanting to avoid the disappointment of former professors and mentors.
Now when I say "education", I don't mean a few highschool or college civics courses. I believe that we should train 'professional citizens' in the same way that we train professional athletes. We need to to raise people to understand how their society works from an early age, which should also include routine participation in citizen committees that oversee social and economic activities. By the time someone is thirty, they should have the experience to identify questionable claims made by industry leaders and politicians. As a bonus, having to "work" as a citizen would make it easier to justify UBI.
Last edited by xerx; 03-21-2021 at 04:37 AM. Reason: fixed typo
I can boil all that away and ask but one piercing question: What do you define as "better" education? I would be quite shocked if it failed to parse through my filter of what politics boils down to. Would you, a most exemplary reporter let us assume, report on a story if it punished your friends and rewarded your enemies in a rather extreme fashion? Would you allow such a story to become published if it resulted in a similar outcome of thine friends getting punished most severely and thine enemies getting rewarded richly?
Oh you can talk a good game, but if you faced that choice IRL how confident are you in your ability to hold to your so called "convictions" eh? I can tack on additional variables if you wish. That UBI is rather rife with potential for abuse. After all, if one would wish to forsake it for some reason or another... why? Could it not also form an effective "mark of the beast" analogue? I mean, the best way to deal with "antisocial" persons would be to just revoke their UBI and wait for them to starve would it not?
'Better education' means a better understanding of law, political science, economics, and any other art or science that's required to run a society. It means a more rigorous and thorough exposure which doesn't gloss over minutiae, and which can be helped along through practical experience on citizens committees. And no, education isn't a form of indoctrination — having a more thorough understanding of a claim puts someone in a better position to challenge it.I can boil all that away and ask but one piercing question: What do you define as "better" education? I would be quite shocked if it failed to parse through my filter of what politics boils down to. Would you, a most exemplary reporter let us assume, report on a story if it punished your friends and rewarded your enemies in a rather extreme fashion? Would you allow such a story to become published if it resulted in a similar outcome of thine friends getting punished most severely and thine enemies getting rewarded richly?
Oh you can talk a good game, but if you faced that choice IRL how confident are you in your ability to hold to your so called "convictions" eh? I can tack on additional variables if you wish
faith (Fi), evidence (Te), logic (Ti), your own eyes (Se), the emotional effect it has (Fe), how you feel physically (Si), patterns (Ni), or by what is possible (Ne)
Some of those don't seem right. I don't want to put faith as Fi for example when that could be interpreted as Ni, since Fi is more like Trust/Distrust while Ni is more like belief . . . kind of.
But whatever, not perfect, but you get the idea lol.
I used to believe that free speech advocates were simply people wanted to pollute the public discord with unsavory opinions and I kind of still do.
But current trends in policing speech is turning out to limit peoples scope for thought, which will in turn cause a simplification of discussion and policy/political action.
I hope we get out of this dumb little trap we've created for ourselves before it is too late.
Last edited by leckysupport; 03-19-2021 at 03:21 PM.
ἀταραξία
@xerxe I think it'd be interesting to have the House run not by election but by random draw from the citizenry, like jury duty. You'd need to pass a civics test and understand what your duties were, and then you'd serve your two year term, and it'd pass to someone else. None of these 50 year-long professional politicians full of corruption, and the entire populace would need to be more educated on what's going on and their own part in it.
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