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    Nothing happens when we die. But that's the beauty of it. That bad Angel episode was wrong. Nothing is not 'the scariest thing there is.' Anybody who says that is an idiot who lacks imagination. Nothing is just nothing. It should be a relief. There is your Heaven. A person should be thankful and pray when they get 'nothing' instead of being all bitter and victim-y about it. Nothing is scapegoated and misunderstood. Nothing... is beautiful , the empty space that lets everything else be.

    Let's be honest, a Delta picnic in the sky would get old and boring fast- even for Deltas... I don't want to stay in some Beta place either all the time really. I don't get it. Heaven doesn't have enough bad or conflict stuff happen to make the organisms in its environment naturally grow - so how can people get stronger?

    I thank all my bullies and haters with this song:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    @End



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    You still haven't provided an unique property of "God" that is observable, nevermind produced any direct evidence that "God" exists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    @End



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    Archbishop Fulton Sheen was one of the greatest Evangelists of the modern era with a talent for oratory and logic that comes but once an entire generation. I'd dare any staunch atheist or other hater/denier of Christ to listen to a few of his lectures or watch a few archived episodes of his TV show and still maintain us Catholics are stupid or insane. Hell, he even converted more than a few absolutely rabid Commies to Christ and the Church in his life. I hope he gets canonized someday.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    You still haven't provided an unique property of "God" that is observable, nevermind produced any direct evidence that "God" exists.
    If you're speaking of strictly "materialistic" evidence than you ain't gonna find any and that's what you're arguing for. You essentially want me and @Eliza Thomason to produce an audio and video recording of the exchange between Moses and God on Mt. Sinai when he received the Ten Commandments or the Lance of Longinus along with the fully intact true Cross upon which he was crucified (complete with a metaphorical "Certificate of Authenticity" signed by the Almighty himself to boot).

    I'd argue, and indeed have argued, that the evidence is irrefutable from a spiritual and societal angle. It is manifestly evident that mankind has a religious impulse. We all have a need to "worship" something. I should make a sign so I can tap it every time this pops up. Everyone has a God. Yes, that includes you, Atheists, and everyone else who presumes themselves "beyond" such "short sighted" or "Primitive superstitions" or whatever denigrating term they have for religious faith.

    Also, the entirety of Western Civilization was founded upon the ethical system put forth by Christianity. Our stories reflect it. Our laws and traditions reflect it. Hell, even its enemies reflect it as they profess a moral system that's a perverse heretical mockery/inversion of it. They replace joy with misery and tell us the misery is joy. They tell us we'll be happier without Christ, God, and all he represents. You should try praying sometime. Earnestly praying, not just doing it as a sarcastic farce.

    Pray the rosary, go to a mass. You have filled a God shaped hole in your heart with something else that does not belong there. Try filing it with with what truly belongs there. I guarantee you'll be far happier and more fulfilled than you are now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    If you're speaking of strictly "materialistic" evidence than you ain't gonna find any and that's what you're arguing for. You essentially want me and @Eliza Thomason to produce an audio and video recording of the exchange between Moses and God on Mt. Sinai when he received the Ten Commandments or the Lance of Longinus along with the fully intact true Cross upon which he was crucified (complete with a metaphorical "Certificate of Authenticity" signed by the Almighty himself to boot).

    I'd argue, and indeed have argued, that the evidence is irrefutable from a spiritual and societal angle. It is manifestly evident that mankind has a religious impulse. We all have a need to "worship" something. I should make a sign so I can tap it every time this pops up. Everyone has a God. Yes, that includes you, Atheists, and everyone else who presumes themselves "beyond" such "short sighted" or "Primitive superstitions" or whatever denigrating term they have for religious faith.

    Also, the entirety of Western Civilization was founded upon the ethical system put forth by Christianity. Our stories reflect it. Our laws and traditions reflect it. Hell, even its enemies reflect it as they profess a moral system that's a perverse heretical mockery/inversion of it. They replace joy with misery and tell us the misery is joy. They tell us we'll be happier without Christ, God, and all he represents. You should try praying sometime. Earnestly praying, not just doing it as a sarcastic farce.

    Pray the rosary, go to a mass. You have filled a God shaped hole in your heart with something else that does not belong there. Try filing it with with what truly belongs there. I guarantee you'll be far happier and more fulfilled than you are now.
    I don't see how an audio and video recording would prove your God, given that you cannot give an unique observable property of your God.

    I doubt you could even provide primary evidence of "Jesus Christ" that could be independently verified.

    The Lance of Longinus and the rosary are not biblical, so I doubt they are essential to the core of Christian religion.

    I am doubtful that Christianity created any new "ethical" principles that inspired laws in "Western Civilization" save for laws aimed at protecting Christianity. I do know that Christian dogma and literature was and is used to condone torture and slavery, practices that I personally object to because I see them as harmful and miserable.

    You cannot provide evidence of your own God, so I am even more doubtful that you can provide evidence of mine considering that I don't believe in any gods.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    Archbishop Fulton Sheen was one of the greatest Evangelists of the modern era with a talent for oratory and logic that comes but once an entire generation. I'd dare any staunch atheist or other hater/denier of Christ to listen to a few of his lectures or watch a few archived episodes of his TV show and still maintain us Catholics are stupid or insane. Hell, he even converted more than a few absolutely rabid Commies to Christ and the Church in his life. I hope he gets canonized someday.
    Not anytime soon, I don't think. Not in these times, which are said to be worse than the days before the Flood. Because while Jesus had a Judas, we, in these times, have so many, many Judases. And the good man has sworn enemies, like guffawing Dolan and his gaggle of goons. So I don't expect canonization until God Himself brings supernatural conversions to the grossly infiltrated hierarchy of His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which He promised He would be with until the end of time. I believe Him. And He said the gates of hell would not prevail against it. Amen.

    Yes, so many - believers and non, Catholic and Protestant - were, and continue to be, very moved by the words of this good, intelligent and supernaturally wise man of God. My ESI Mom was a fan of Fulton J. Sheen, in spite of (subtlety) imparting to me the firm anti-Catholic bias she was raised with. People love Sheen because they long in their heart for God, and they hunger and thirst for truth and goodness, and they recognize a fellow pilgrim in Sheen, wherever they are on that walk to God.

    But also there those who love their own thought more than any pursuit of goodness and truth, and they not only refuse to know or to acknowledge their own Maker, the God of Goodness and Truth, but they spew out their vain hate for Him. Their delight is in offending those who love God. To deliver stings to believers with blaspheme is their aim. How pathetic. What fools these proud persons are. We can only pray for them. And I don't want anything to do with that kind of talk. : (
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 03-12-2021 at 11:18 PM.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


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    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    I don't see how an audio and video recording would prove your God, given that you cannot give an unique observable property of your God.

    I doubt you could even provide primary evidence of "Jesus Christ" that could be independently verified.

    The Lance of Longinus and the rosary are not biblical, so I doubt they are essential to the core of Christian religion.

    I am doubtful that Christianity created any new "ethical" principles that inspired laws in "Western Civilization" save for laws aimed at protecting Christianity. I do know that Christian dogma and literature was and is used to condone torture and slavery, practices that I personally object to because I see them as harmful and miserable.

    You cannot provide evidence of your own God, so I am even more doubtful that you can provide evidence of mine considering that I don't believe in any gods.
    Ok, first off, pretty much everyone here and everywhere with half a brain cell to their name admits that that the "Jesus doesn't exist within the historical record" argument is total BS. You're arguing that here so I call BS and dare you to pass a witch test if only to see if I'm right about this sort of thing.

    He/Jesus existed. Deny his divinity all you want, but that such a figure existed is beyond dispute to anyone who isn't demonically obsessed/possessed and even if you are you'll still admit it in the end.

    As I am very fond of quoting Fulton Sheen and pretty much anyone who accepts the truth of this matter: Even the Devil Believes!

    Swallow that fact and its full implications, than get back to me in regards to your "god". As you are an ardent atheist answer me this: What do you value most above and beyond thine own supposed freedom? I can tell you what you worship if you give me that answer. IF you give me an honest answer that is. I seek the chain that binds you to this world so that I may shatter it .


    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Not anytime soon, I don't think. Not in these times, which are said to be worse than the days before the Flood. Because while Jesus had a Judas, we, in these times, have so many, many Judases. And the good man has sworn enemies, like guffawing Dolan and his gaggle of goons. So I don't expect canonization until God Himself brings supernatural conversions to the grossly infiltrated hierarchy of His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which He promised He would be with until the end of time. I believe Him. And He said the gates of hell would not prevail against it. Amen.

    Yes, so many - believers and non, Catholic and Protestant - were, and continue to be, very moved by the words of this good, intelligent and supernaturally wise man of God. My ESI Mom was a fan of Fulton J. Sheen, in spite of (subtlety) imparting to me the firm anti-Catholic bias she was raised with. People love Sheen because they long in their heart for God, and they hunger and thirst for truth and goodness, and they recognize a fellow pilgrim in Sheen, wherever they are on that walk to God.

    But also there those who love their own thought more than any pursuit of goodness and truth, and they not only refuse to know or to acknowledge their own Maker, the God of Goodness and Truth, but they spew out their vain hate for Him. Their delight is in offending those who love God. To deliver stings to believers with blaspheme is their aim. How pathetic. What fools these proud persons are. We can only pray for them. And I don't want anything to do with that kind of talk. : (
    Depends on the perspective. We have a collective knowledge of all the aspects of sin such that we have no real excuse if we sin. Though, from that angle, the Devil had a much easier time deceiving and corrupting mankind.

    Degeneracy is more accessible than ever by even the most innocent and unsuspecting, but so is the holy word...

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    What a bullshit quote. Some people worship literally nothing and literally see the positive and negative sides to almost everything because almost everything is like that because it's called being realistic. Day turns into night and night turns back into day again... why would I worship one over the other?

    To me nothing is sacred. Anything sacred is simply trying to be pretentious, arrogant and 'above it all', and the GLBT community traditionally rips to shreds anything trying to be uppity like that. It's just how we are. If you can't see the inherent shittiness in everything, even your God, I-I just don't think that's wise.

    Why do people think they are so special or 'good' that they deserve Heaven anyway? So you saved all those people for just some eternal reward and fear of being punished- not really any instrinstic motivation that it was the 'right' thing to do? Then they tell me they know they are filthy sinners and deserving of eternal torment- and so it seems like this self-hating thing. If you really knew that and accepted that, you wouldn't have so much false hope that you were going to the Good Place instead.

    This is beyond religious people being meanies to me really- the above post was just incredibly stupid and illogical to me- but because I'm not a T type, maybe I'm not conveying that as well as they could.

    I don't mean any disrespect or anything- I mean Subt and I have our spats in the past and he's really Fi and British compared to me but I really do agree with the old chap in this thread...

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    To say I'm going to worship myself because I don't worship God is like saying I'm going to eat at McDonald's because I'm not eating at Wendy's that day.

    Maybe I'm just not eating fast food period. Or eating at all because I'm dead. And that's wonderfully okay.

    "but what about all the really evil and immoral people- they're just going to get away with it?"

    Not exactly- because they're all going to die too and I think doing yucky things to others like that corrupts oneself anyway. Or you get annoyed and become unhappy because it didn't really make you feel like a God like you thought it would. Most of the people I met that were shitty kinda had bad external envrionments anyway- and were grossly unhappy with themselves. Hurt people hurt people, you know? lol. It's some projection we do with the 'evil must be destroyed' thing - some ultimate villain we like to see conquered, as being evil is seen as something people 'enjoy doing' or like to do- because pure evil, there's a freedom in that. But real people becoming evil is often more complicated than that mustache-twirly thing, much more ambiguous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    Nothing happens when we die. But that's the beauty of it.

    That bad Angel episode was wrong. Nothing is not 'the scariest thing there is.' Anybody who says that is an idiot who lacks imagination. Nothing is just nothing. It should be a relief. There is your Heaven. A person should be thankful and pray when they get 'nothing' instead of being all bitter and victim-y about it. Nothing is scapegoated and misunderstood. Nothing... is beautiful , the empty space that lets everything else be.
    Yes, for sure, "Nothing" is not the scariest place. Hell is.

    ["Nothing comes from nothing... nothing ever could..."]


    There is incentive to believe life ends in "nothing", to be sure. "Nothing" is a much more desirable belief than hell.

    [Hell: a place that does not come from nothing].

    There is a popular magical thinking these days that says we can choose what we prefer to believe, and by believing it, we create our own reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    Let's be honest, a Delta picnic in the sky would get old and boring fast- even for Deltas... I don't want to stay in some Beta place either all the time really. I don't get it.
    Maybe you don't want to get it? Because this doesn't make sense. Why would the God who made the four Quadras make Heaven be like a picnic of only one of those Quadras? (Which happens to be the picnic you would least enjoy, too.) And since we on earth enjoy not only our on Quadra, but the other three (in the right dose), what would be the reason for Heaven being less heavenly than earth in that regard?

    It doesn't look like you have dedicated a great deal of contemplation to this this view of Heaven you are sharing.

    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    Heaven doesn't have enough bad or conflict stuff happen to make the organisms in its environment naturally grow - so how can people get stronger?
    Our only experience of goodness on earth is here on earth, that place mixed with bad and good, so it's natural to see it in that regard. But after death, it splits eternally to ALL good, or ALL bad. No more both.

    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    To say I'm going to worship myself because I don't worship God is like saying I'm going to eat at McDonald's because I'm not eating at Wendy's that day.
    We are created to worship. So someone in your life gets homage. If not God, then: nine times out of ten, it's you.

    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    ... "but what about all the really evil and immoral people- they're just going to get away with it?"
    Not exactly- because they're all going to die too and I think doing yucky things to others like that corrupts oneself anyway.
    That you ask that question, to me, reveals the sacred truth that God has written His law on every heart. And that we have an innate belief in the existence of justice. That we know that in the end, justice should prevail.


    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    Or you get annoyed and become unhappy because it didn't really make you feel like a God like you thought it would. Most of the people I met that were shitty kinda had bad external environments anyway- and were grossly unhappy with themselves. Hurt people hurt people, you know? lol.
    God knows that, and only He knows our whole heart and our whole lives and every thought and motivation we have ever had. And He knows which acts we are responsible for and exactly to what extent. Yes, hurt people hurt people, and Gods wrath on those who lead the least ones astray we are assured is very, very great. He tells us not to judge, because only He, the perfect omniscient one, can judge hearts. (Of course we can and should judge an act itself).


    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    It's some projection we do with the 'evil must be destroyed' thing - some ultimate villain we like to see conquered, as being evil is seen as something people 'enjoy doing' or like to do- because pure evil, there's a freedom in that..
    Many, many, many people have reported countless and detailed visions of Hell, and in every case, it is clear it is PURE evil there, and it is clear there is NO freedom in it. The freedom, the choice, for one's eternity, is now on earth, only. And only here on earth, where there exists both good and evil (and good people to abuse) can an illusion exist that there is some sort of freedom in evil (when in fact it is a slavery). As soon as you die, that illusion dissipates forever.

    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    But real people becoming evil is often more complicated than that mustache-twirly thing, much more ambiguous.
    And not uncommon.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    I want to live forever, eternal torment, eternal experience.. infinite lifetimes of pain and suffering


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    Jordon Peterson's reply to, "Do you believe in God?"

    "I act as if God exists, and I am terrified he might."

    Admirable answer from a true intellectual whose piercing candidness I enjoy.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Jordon Peterson's reply to, "Do you believe in God?"

    "I act as if God exists, and I am terrified he might."

    Admirable answer from a true intellectual whose piercing candidness I enjoy.
    That's pathetic. A person should fear their own conscience more than they fear punishment from someone else.

    To me, there is nothing admirable about followers of the Abrahamic God being willing to kill children if they believed God told them to. Such people have no fixed principles other than obeying a third party they believe to be God, and yet I never seem to get any piercing candidness from them about how they know a third party is God, rather than say Satan.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    person should fear their own conscience more than they fear punishment from someone else.
    Following one's conscience alone and fearing it without external authority is inadequate .

    If conscience alone was sufficient without fear of external authority, we wouldn't need prisons, courts, and laws to punish wrongdoers and criminals.

    Have you ever wondered what would happen if laws were abolished and everyone was allowed to act as they wanted without consequences? how many people would actually act according to their conscience rather than their instincts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrel View Post
    Following one's conscience alone and fearing it without external authority is inadequate .

    If conscience alone was sufficient without fear of external authority, we wouldn't need prisons, courts, and laws to punish wrongdoers and criminals.

    Have you ever wondered what would happen if laws were abolished and everyone was allowed to act as they wanted without consequences? how many people would actually act according to their conscience rather than their instincts?
    Muhammad (if he existed) in my view was worse than Genghis Khan, at least in terms of intent. Both essentially did whatever they wanted, yet millions revere them. If someone like that is your external authority, and you don’t bother to think if an action is right or not, how can you claim it is inadequate if a person doesn’t follow an external authority?

    The Abrahamic religions have the story of “God” asking Abraham to kill one of his sons, and Abraham being willing to do so (that he didn’t have to in the end is irrelevant to my point). The point of the story in these faiths is to show that blind obedience to “God” is what a good follower of “God” would do.

    That illustrates to me that in these religions, there is no act so immoral that a religious person would not do, if they believed “God” told them to do it. It happens all the time that people believe “God” (or a “voice in their head” told them to). Nevermind prisons, there are a lot of mental asylums with such people, despite them supposedly following an external authority.

    If "God" could tell you to kill a child, how can you tell that a good being is talking to you? Essentially, you think people should ignore their conscience, and follow somebody else's. People like Genghis Khan could certainly have a bad set of morals according to wider society, but that's the point. People's consciences are often different from society's. In Genghis Khan's case, he may have actually acted normal for the culture he lived in. I believe that eternal torture is immoral for example, which is contrary to what billions of people who have lived throughout history have believed.

    The story of Muhammad is rather similar to Joseph Smith, both Islam and the Later Day Saints claim to have had prophets who received messages from God, via an angel, who then told other people what was allegedly said. Anyone could claim to have received such a message.

    The Abrahamic religions believe that God killed almost all life on Earth in a flood. Apparently this is not a wrongful and criminal act.

    There was an experiment where researchers dropped wallets with money in them in cities around the globe, and calculated what percentage of them were returned to them. The "Muslim countries" in the study didn't do especially well in terms of returning the wallets. Many more secular countries did better.
    https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aau8712

    In Christianity and Islam, there is belief in eternal torture in Hell as a punishment. I regard this as the most immoral act imaginable, yet billions follow these religions. Do they do so out of fear, or because they think this is acceptable?

    The Nazis killed millions of Jews and other peoples in the Holocaust, then burnt their remains in furnaces. There are stories that some people were thrown into the furnaces while still living. Anne Frank died at one of their concentration camps of all illness, so she didn’t suffer that fate. I don’t know if you’ve ever read her diary, but if you have, you’ll know she was one of the most humane people who ever lived, who’d never dream of hurting anyone. Yet if Islam is true, Anne Frank will be tortured in the fires of Hell for eternity for rejecting Islam, as she was a faithful Jew. Islam and Christianity therefore to me are worse ideologies than Nazism.

    People like HÍtler and Genghis Khan and Muhammad (if he existed), probably did do essentially what they wanted, but then so did people like Immanuel Kant and Baruch Spinoza (who basically hurt nobody in their lives). There were also people who felt duty-bound to kill thousands of people in the name of their religion they followed (which they didn’t invent), in crusades and jihads etc. – these people will be rewarded with eternity in heaven, if their religions are true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Muhammad (if he existed) in my view was worse than Genghis Khan, at least in terms of intent. Both essentially did whatever they wanted, yet millions revere them. If someone like that is your external authority, and you don’t bother to think if an action is right or not, how can you claim it is inadequate if a person doesn’t follow an external authority?

    The Abrahamic religions have the story of “God” asking Abraham to kill one of his sons, and Abraham being willing to do so (that he didn’t have to in the end is irrelevant to my point). The point of the story in these faiths is to show that blind obedience to “God” is what a good follower of “God” would do.

    That illustrates to me that in these religions, there is no act so immoral that a religious person would not do, if they believed “God” told them to do it. It happens all the time that people believe “God” (or a “voice in their head” told them to). Nevermind prisons, there are a lot of mental asylums with such people, despite them supposedly following an external authority.

    If "God" could tell you to kill a child, how can you tell that a good being is talking to you? Essentially, you think people should ignore their conscience, and follow somebody else's. People like Genghis Khan could certainly have a bad set of morals according to wider society, but that's the point. People's consciences are often different from society's. In Genghis Khan's case, he may have actually acted normal for the culture he lived in. I believe that eternal torture is immoral for example, which is contrary to what billions of people who have lived throughout history have believed.

    The story of Muhammad is rather similar to Joseph Smith, both Islam and the Later Day Saints claim to have had prophets who received messages from God, via an angel, who then told other people what was allegedly said. Anyone could claim to have received such a message.

    The Abrahamic religions believe that God killed almost all life on Earth in a flood. Apparently this is not a wrongful and criminal act.

    There was an experiment where researchers dropped wallets with money in them in cities around the globe, and calculated what percentage of them were returned to them. The "Muslim countries" in the study didn't do especially well in terms of returning the wallets. Many more secular countries did better.
    https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aau8712

    In Christianity and Islam, there is belief in eternal torture in Hell as a punishment. I regard this as the most immoral act imaginable, yet billions follow these religions. Do they do so out of fear, or because they think this is acceptable?

    The Nazis killed millions of Jews and other peoples in the Holocaust, then burnt their remains in furnaces. There are stories that some people were thrown into the furnaces while still living. Anne Frank died at one of their concentration camps of all illness, so she didn’t suffer that fate. I don’t know if you’ve ever read her diary, but if you have, you’ll know she was one of the most humane people who ever lived, who’d never dream of hurting anyone. Yet if Islam is true, Anne Frank will be tortured in the fires of Hell for eternity for rejecting Islam, as she was a faithful Jew. Islam and Christianity therefore to me are worse ideologies than Nazism.

    People like HÍtler and Genghis Khan and Muhammad (if he existed), probably did do essentially what they wanted, but then so did people like Immanuel Kant and Baruch Spinoza (who basically hurt nobody in their lives). There were also people who felt duty-bound to kill thousands of people in the name of their religion they followed (which they didn’t invent), in crusades and jihads etc. – these people will be rewarded with eternity in heaven, if their religions are true.
    I agree with you.

    Abrahamic religions, outside of their esoteric currents, are essentially based on fear. How could a god of love send anyone to hell? Well, the fact is, he couldn't, it is inconsistent with what love means in Christianity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Jordon Peterson's reply to, "Do you believe in God?"

    "I act as if God exists, and I am terrified he might."

    Admirable answer from a true intellectual whose piercing candidness I enjoy.
    Like how is this admirable? He's saying he is afraid of going to hell. That's all his "acting as if God exists" is based on - fear. It's lamentable and pathetic, as Subteigh said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WVBRY View Post
    He's saying he is afraid of going to hell.
    He may dislike different ideas, besides punishments (which may happen during the life too). For example, a force which may oppose to your will without any limits and beyond your understanding.

    Pathetic is any negative motivation. The sense of religions and other ideas is to make people happier and stronger. When people perceive a religion with the accent on a fear - is a problematic work of priests. The main motivation should be positive, as in other case people will tend to find more pleasant ideas.

    From general view on religions. Many ideas on individual level are accepted irrationally, hence can be named as variants of religiond. It can be even main approach to accept some info, as mainly we use external data and not own experience and thinking. The mind of humans is much irrational, - it's much religous by the approach.
    If to take those who blame religions - they have the same level of irrationality, just some of ideas are opposite.

    It's a mistake to think that religions are nothing for practice. As minimum, when a human believes in something as a way to do, - this intention activates his unconscious processes on his aim. So indeed he may achieve that easier or just to achieve, while what model happens in his consciousness during this is secondary.
    Imagine yourself being under warm ligh and your vessels will become wider, warm blood will make your skin warmer. You are using an imagination, but the result is objective and your aim is achieved.
    Monotheism uses images of loving allmighty creator. People ask and may to get what ask. They believe in help and unconsciousness get the attitude to achieve the wished. The result looks as unusual luck. A part of work is just done out of common consciousness.
    I used monotheism to meet a human, which I wanted to meet. I did a prey. I've felt I'll success. And I've met soon "accidentally". It may work! I did alike not a single time. I did more. Limits is hard to say. Other people mb could do more impressive, than my games.

    Idea of sins. There should be unconscious regulation of behavior. For example, to make a harm to others is against instincts to keep alive your kind, against compassion between people needed to give a support each other. So some actions may lead to unconscious opposing. What lead, including, to worse mood, redundant predisposition to negative emotional reactions, more of painful events. The principle of sins is not against common psychology. While religions try (partly correctly) to describe something common for unconscious regulation of people, what may lead them to worse life or lesser pleasant perceiving of it. Also religions by sins idea may act on level of objective consequences which are described by metaphors, where the main is a human behaved better and secondary how correctly it was explained why to do that (the same as with kids) - alike to do not eat "forbidden/damned" (poisoned) fruits.

    Religions is metaphorical approach to deal with mind of people. It can be used for good or worse, as a method/tool to use the imagination.

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    Well, God is everything and with everyone. Alternatively, the universe is everything and consists of everyone. God, the Tao, Brahma, the one infinite Creator: It's really all the same. Personally, I subscribe to the Law of One.

    I am Ra. Consider, if you will, that the universe is infinite. This has yet to be proven or disproven, but we can assure you that there is no end to your selves, your understanding, what you would call your journey of seeking, or your perceptions of the creation.

    That which is infinite cannot be many, for many-ness is a finite concept. To have infinity you must identify or define that infinity as unity; otherwise, the term does not have any referent or meaning. In an Infinite Creator there is only unity. You have seen simple examples of unity. You have seen the prism which shows all colors stemming from the sunlight. This is a simplistic example of unity.

    In truth there is no right or wrong. There is no polarity for all will be, as you would say, reconciled at some point in your dance through the mind/body/spirit complex which you amuse yourself by distorting in various ways at this time. This distortion is not in any case necessary. It is chosen by each of you as an alternative to understanding the complete unity of thought which binds all things. You are not speaking of similar or somewhat like entities or things. You are every thing, every being, every emotion, every event, every situation. You are unity. You are infinity. You are love/light, light/love. You are. This is the Law of One.
    https://www.lawofone.info/

    The Law of One Ra Materials and A Course in Miracles break things down in ways with better clarity than older scriptures which are more easily twisted to fit people's agendas.

    Admittedly, I do enjoy the Bible, the Dhammapada, and the Tao teh Ching in moderation.

    That said, I find the wrangling of whether God is real or not to be silly. The bigger question lies in the nature of consciousness and if consciousness is experienced at an atomic level. If so, the very elements possess consciousness though self-awareness is a different matter (pun intended).

    According to the Law of One and many other philosophies of a mystical nature, all things share in consciousness that flows from a singular source. However, self-awareness appears to be most consistent with the human experience, not to say it is limited to the human experience. Nonetheless, the idea is that all things are subject to evolution that has neither beginning nor end. Perhaps we are expressions of the Creator who wants to know itself better and through all, it knows and is ever knowing its limitless capabilities.

    I think the Ra Materials puts it concisely as:
    "The heart of the discipline of the personality is threefold. One, know yourself. Two, accept yourself. Three, become the Creator."

    That's really it. It's not about being right or wrong, good or bad. It's about authenticity.
    Service to self is an equally valid path as is service to others; the former just requires a lot more commitment because it's easier and more "natural" to do good. The issue arises with apathy -- stradling the fence. But even then, Ra states that "there are no mistakes."

    So it may be most profitable, in my view, to be yourself and have faith. Love without fear and be free to live your life and hopefully enjoy it.

    To quote St. Paul, "and these three remain: faith, hope, and love, but the greatest of these is love."
    Last edited by aixelsyd; 03-14-2021 at 02:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd View Post
    Well, God is everything and with everyone. Alternatively, the universe is everything and consists of everyone. God, the Tao, Brahma, the one infinite Creator: It's really all the same. Personally, I subscribe to the Law of One.



    https://www.lawofone.info/

    The Law of One Ra Materials and A Course in Miracles break things down in ways with better clarity than older scriptures which are more easily twisted to fit people's agendas.

    Admittedly, I do enjoy the Bible, the Dhammapada, and the Tao teh Ching in moderation.

    That said, I find the wrangling of whether God is real or not to be silly. The bigger question lies in the nature of consciousness and if consciousness is experienced at an atomic level. If so, the very elements possess consciousness though self-awareness is a different matter (pun intended).

    According to the Law of One and many other philosophies of a mystical nature, all things share in consciousness that flows from a singular source. However, self-awareness appears to be most consistent with the human experience, not to say it is limited to the human experience. Nonetheless, the idea is that all things are subject to evolution that has neither beginning nor end. Perhaps we are expressions of the Creator who wants to know itself better and through all, it knows and is ever knowing its limitless capabilities.

    I think the Ra Materials puts it concisely as:
    "The heart of the discipline of the personality is threefold. One, know yourself. Two, accept yourself. Three, become the Creator."

    That's really it. It's not about being right or wrong, good or bad. It's about authenticity.
    Service to self is an equally valid path as is service to others; the former just requires a lot more commitment because it's easier and more "natural" to do good. The issue arises with apathy -- stradling the fence. But even then, Ra states that "there are no mistakes."

    So it may be most profitable, in my view, to be yourself and have faith. Love without fear and be free to live your life and hopefully enjoy it.

    To quote St. Paul, "and these three remain: faith, hope, and love, but the greatest of these is love."
    In infinity, serving youself and serving others is one and the same. No need to set yourself on fire to warm others, no need to set others on fire to warm yourself, we can just start a fire for everyone who needs it. :heart:

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    Quote Originally Posted by one View Post
    You cannot expect religion to be everything for everybody. We all have different lives to live and our perceptions are different. It doesn't matter whether God or not exists. Making Him a priority is outside of it.

    Besides, spirituality will still be a part of human life, but religion such as Christianity just doesn't have a place in the modern world. Because of its own wickedness and absurdity, the walls are slowly closing in on them.
    Sounds like you have an answer to that problem. Pray tell, what "religion" do you think can and should replace Christianity? I am curious. I am quite sure it's pretty damned demonic but hey, surprise me .

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    Quote Originally Posted by one View Post
    Why replace, when you can just obliterate. Spirituality is not equal to religion
    I'd disagree rather harshly. Your "spirituality" is a religion. At least, it will be for the grand majority of humanity. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you've achieved some "ubermench" state. Your descendants (if you even bother to have any) will almost certainly not. Thus, while you do not worship whatever concept or idea you have in the place of God as such (and ya do, I'm just humoring you here), your progeny will down the line. Few can achieve that state if it is even possible.

    Thus my point stands. If not a religion like Christianity, a cultural backdrop that enabled and gave rise to your, I assume, vaunted concepts of rationality, the scientific method, and psychology, well, what? If it isn't some form of devil and/or narcissistic self worship I'll be pleasantly surprised. Name your faith, your god. For again you have one as do we all. The only difference here and now is I'm being totally and completely honest about who and what mine is and have the balls to loudly and proudly proclaim him before all to see and hear.

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    I have no belief in a personal god, much less one that prescribes a universal path to "salvation". Whether this includes the possibility of any kind of being we may call a god, say, of the deistic or impersonal variety, is still under consideration for me. About the opinion that this lack of belief only leaves the unbeliever with a kind of surrogate god unconsciously ruling over them in the form of their own arbitrary inclinations, I think its advocates would need to make the case for why this perspective would be more valid than the reverse; that rather, the need for such belief is a surrogate for other needs that one can't give clear expression or find a means of satiating.


    The Abrahamic religions, at their roots, appear to be an elaborate (but also crude) method of dealing with male reproductive interests more than anything else. Much of the Bible is eerily focused on how we go about fucking, and what to expect of a woman in that regard, little if any of which has anything to do with what we think of as the morality of western culture. Not even the sexually conservative part of it, given the allowance for rape provided it were followed by marriage, among other things.
    If he's anywhere close to living up to his name, then the most generous assessment I'd have of their god, and the only plausible motive for him intervening in the world that I can think of, is that he simply approaches his creation as a kind of experiment, and for him we are merely test subjects. Granted, it wouldn't be that interesting if his omniscience already informed him of all the outcomes already, in which case it might be that Satan is a similarly omniscient split personality of himself that he created to play devil's advocate, and provide a challenge to an otherwise unchallengeable being. Since I find especially dissatisfying the idea that a certain tribe living in their particular region of the world had the privilege of receiving the light of the one true god, and having official holy scriptures written around their history and justifying their conquests in his name, while others had just been left in the dark during that whole period before they could be sent the messengers of this one true faith (who were themselves in large part from a culture that had few ties to the people and era their scriptures were written about), it'd be more likely to me that the gods of other religions are also just different personas of his. It could even be that those catering to particularly pugnacious varieties of people were deliberately made like that in order to ascertain the way it effects how they compete against one another. Many of his believers defend him by claiming that he transcends human logic, but I reckon it would be more apt to say that he transcends human sanity. Though probably not in a way that we can safely consider to be some higher order of sanity, if there can be such a thing. In conclusion, he would be like a mad scientist, basically. Goes to show how divine madness certainly could reach all the way up.
    Last edited by K0m0d0; 03-15-2021 at 07:09 PM.

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by one View Post
    You cannot expect religion to be everything for everybody. We all have different lives to live and our perceptions are different...
    This is true!

    Quote Originally Posted by one View Post
    ...It doesn't matter whether God or not exists. Making Him a priority is outside of it.

    Besides, spirituality will still be a part of human life, but religion such as Christianity just doesn't have a place in the modern world. Because of its own wickedness and absurdity, the walls are slowly closing in on them.
    It is certainly true that it appears that way! But God has promised to be with the Church in all times and the Church will stand until the last day. Jesus's Church is in her Passion; She is much like Jesus when He walked through Jerusalem carrying his cross, beaten and bloodied, insults hurled at Him. He sure didn't "show Himself" well in that moment! Yet, He was God Himself in that ugly-appearing moment. Likewise the Church isn't looking so good in many ways. But there will be a passion which we know from Jesus led to death, a brief one. It will appear as in Jesus' day that evil has won. But we know the end of that. God has promised that there will never be a time in the days of mankind that the Church established by Jesus will not be.

    So yes, there is ugliness to behold, but much beauty shines forth as well.

    Jesus's Church is not wicked or absurd, but it is full of sinners and ignorant folk as well as those who live in complete betrayal of it. You have to look at those who actually live it's teachings to judge it, and there are and always have been so many. Not the hypocrites living diametrically opposed to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

    Misjudgments of Jesus and His Church make me sad, but it is the reality, particularly in our times. God is the same yesterday, today, and always, and He loves every soul He has created, and He will act in our sad times to ensure souls are saved. We already know He does what it takes, no matter the cost.

    I appreciate your honesty though, and that is why I took time to respond (it's useless to respond to persons of ill will, and I perceive you are not that).
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 03-15-2021 at 09:43 PM.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    This is true!



    It is certainly true that it appears that way! But God has promised to be with the Church in all times and the Church will stand until the last day. Jesus's Church is in her Passion; She is much like Jesus when He walked through Jerusalem carrying his cross, beaten and bloodied, insults hurled at Him. He sure didn't "show Himself" well in that moment! Yet, He was God Himself in that ugly-appearing moment. Likewise the Church isn't looking so good in many ways. But there will be a passion which we know from Jesus led to death, a brief one. It will appear as in Jesus' day that evil has won. But we know the end of that. God has promised that there will never be a time in the days of mankind that the Church established by Jesus will not be.

    So yes, there is ugliness to behold, but much beauty shines forth as well.

    Jesus's Church is not wicked or absurd, but it is full of sinners and ignorant folk as well as those who live in complete betrayal of it. You have to look at those who actually live it's teachings to judge it, and there are and always have been so many. Not the hypocrites living diametrically opposed to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

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    starts sometime after 2:00

    it's a nice summary of what most world religions are saying on one level imo... and really you could say it's a 9ish bias for me to say in a way they are all saying the same thing, but ahem, as tolle says beneath the ideology/dogma of the world's religions is something transcendental... and generally i think that transcendental aspect is pretty similar in all of them...

    i know that tolle is considered "new age" and in some ways "new age" is its own attempt to merge all the religions together + crystals + runes + mandalas + yoga + ... + etc. etc. and when people are creating fairy mounds and waving stones around to tones as they attempt to balance their chakras, yes it's all this silly muddle of shiz. however, the aim of the "new age" movement is a synthesis... it's to extract the fruit from the tree. the world's religions taken together are the tree and there's all this additional clutter to them, all these ancient cultural practices and laws and attempts to explain why their children died or the crops died or a flood happened, all their moral laws and punishments, all their wars and conflicts, their lineages and history, all their superstitious practices and rituals... the new age movement (when not bogged down by its own rather copious clutter) seeks to remove all the clutter. out of the giant pile of dead leaves all over the ground surrounding the tree is the fruit, and it is basically quite simple, "the essence" as tolle later says.

    this is really close to my view on religion though i am what tolle might call an "egoistic" person still clinging to my separateness, i still walk on the dark side, i still feel somehow this path of desire leads somewhere rather than to a barren desert like a true sith. and i like some of the rituals and am fascinated by ahem, power. it's hard to give up such tasty morsels, it's hard to want to.

    anyway, really the new age thing is simply efficient. it's just harvest the fruit from the trees the human race painstakingly raised for thousands of years trying to find their way out of the darkness. it's um kind of capitalist and sterile, but it's just the next step of what one does after they've created a lot of material here and there... so much content, looking to synthesize, refine like a processed food for easy consumption lol. or you could consider the world religions like the rough draft and the new age movement seeks to edit them down to the final paper, clear and concise. or you could see it as the human race has been talking about this same thing probably since the beginning (as we weren't the first hominid to speak), and this is the current iteration of the same thing again communicated in a modern way, the thing we've always known but can never remember. and then the ideal of the movement is that becomes our solid stair step, so we can build up to the next one. one has to shore up what one has to use it to build what one will have next.

    does it lose some of its beauty and floweriness kind of like how ancient thinkers musing about things now explained by science (like yes, we are made up of atoms) brought more beauty to it all than this sterile science "end" product of it today? yes... but beauty and meaning are not precious and easily born/kindled again. and beauty is ahem ofc in the eye of the beholder. the modern form is beautiful, just not in the same ye olden way.

    oh also i don't really feel it is all leading to some end, really it is all leading to the next iteration. really it may be that humanity always tries to "reach god" when the only way to "reach god" is to stop trying to reach, but then nothing magical happens. we don't erupt into light and transcend the stars or something. we just continue until we can't.
    Last edited by marooned; 03-17-2021 at 06:07 AM.

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    This entire concept of Religion being "just" a crutch is so preposterous and really under represents the entire phenomena altogether.

    Its like the most passively arrogant and misinformed things a person could even say on the topic. Its like the assessment from a small child.

    I swear to God eat an entire bag of magic mushrooms and you won't be so sure anymore of anything. Even if there is no God, there is still a lot going on under the surface and its pretty silly to say that you know the answers here. I think the same way of a person like Richard Dawkins. Its like there still is no proof of abiogensisis, nor even actual speciation beyond micro changes. I mean you can build as many logical projections on your computer as you want, we still can't see evolution in real time, even bacteria revert back to original states after the pressure is removed. Things don't get more sophisticated because they mutated if those mutations had no purpose in the intermediate steps getting there.

    I know it sounds irresponsible to suggest people eat a hallucinogenic fungus, but it seriously is necessary to even understand what taking your sandals off before a burning bush even mean in real time, "for you". Not as some intellectual masturbatory session of one idea versus another.

    Even if there was no God and organized religion is like some massive historical cultural psychosis systemic mechanism of establishment control, it still has to be pointing at something fundamental for people and saying "its people's need to have a higher authority power" or other such bargain basement college philosophy class explanation you can come up with, is pretty pathetic and barely scratches the surface of "what is going on".

    I think people of this type of thinking are kind of like immature, like small children. Its like the opposite of the Santa Claus delusion, its like the new belief in the Void of which our scientific apparatus will eventually unwind the entire clock work for, all while assuming that the measure of all things is man anyway. Its like no wonder China will win someday. Nothing being sacred means nothing is treated as sacred (but not actually because the ideal of nothingness and biological imperative is held up as the supreme truth). Its like since when did science even prove there was no God? LOL, watch you epsitomology in the first place.
    Last edited by timber; 04-03-2021 at 08:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Until "God" qualifies as a hypothesis, "science" does not need to prove there is no "God".
    Not yet because science is still hoping to fill every gap with a natural answer and might even succeed, but getting there is going to require they turn back the clock and question their foundations that were once required to move knowledge forward during the Enlightenment.

    There is a massive failure and disservice to the the cause to say there is no "x" so don't even try.

    Its this same type of indoctrination of graduates currently that allows WHO's directive to not explore the lab leak theory because "its highly unlikely". lol.

    *arf arf arf* jump through the hoop Seals. *arf arf arf*

    This is also part of the connection problem between micro quantum level and macro physics. Currently you have problematic concepts being touted as solving some of these issues such as many worlds.

    Its like basically we will solve these issues but its not going to be by the current paradigm. Its going to require another novel type thinker and that thinker is going to be able to thread our intuitive feeling of God and wisdom of thousands generations that the current age of "smart atheists" are not properly trained for.

    Like, two chemicals independently arising in evolution in different plant species by different pathways *by chance, by fluke, by coincidence* is wishful thinking at best and down right retarding to our understanding of life at worst.

    Basically, do you think the cargo ship blocking the Suez canal and further exacerbating the current globalized trade issues due to covid is some kind of a-casual event? No bud, there is no such thing as coincidence. That ship was jinxed by 7 billion worries and manifested by our fears of what is currently going on. Its called dependent arising and its a thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    Not yet because science is still hoping to fill every gap with a natural answer and might even succeed, but getting there is going to require they turn back the clock and question their foundations that were once required to move knowledge forward during the Enlightenment.

    There is a massive failure and disservice to the the cause to say there is no "x" so don't even try.

    Its this same type of indoctrination of graduates currently that allows WHO's directive to not explore the lab leak theory because "its highly unlikely". lol.

    *arf arf arf* jump through the hoop Seals.
    I'm not saying there is no "God", I'm saying that "God" does not qualify as a hypothesis. A hypothesis must be based on observation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    I'm not saying there is no "God", I'm saying that "God" does not qualify as a hypothesis. A hypothesis must be based on observation.
    I guess you are saying there is no Universally held observation of any phenomena by the majority of sane adults that would qualify as possibly being explained by god and not some other commonly known principle of nature, correct?

    I think the issue here is that you are asking the wrong questions. I get the sense you don't even know what you are talking about, given some of the history of what I've seen you write and how you deride and mock it all as being "just silly fundamentalism and deluded belief".

    I get the sense that to you belief is a kind of joke anyway and faith is like some type of deluding yourself as well. I get the sense actually that all of this is totally personal to you as a person. Its like you are a walking talking Richard Attenborough or, Dawkins, some man of English reason. Shmarm Shmarm Shmarm. You are so smarmy. If only we could have the exacting and scientific mind like you. Then we would see that the data doesn't lead either way, and certainly not towards a mysterious power outside ourselves.

    I guess you could say that something like electromagnetism or other such x-natural phenomena is directing "all this". Actually lets spend our time breaking it down even further in to cubits of datum and like, build our cosmology up from there.

    All hail Degrass Tyson.

    Thank God we escaped our superstitious past and are now super logic beings of the Nu-Future. Hook us up to the internet ONE MIND (lol also an expression of God by another name) and like give us our pfizer shots for extra system over-weave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    I guess you are saying there is no Universally held observation of any phenomena by the majority of sane adults that would qualify as possibly being explained by god and not some other commonly known principle of nature, correct?

    I think the issue here is that you are asking the wrong questions. I get the sense you don't even know what you are talking about, given some of the history of what I've seen you write and how you deride and mock it all as being "just silly fundamentalism and deluded belief".

    I get the sense that to you belief is a kind of joke anyway and faith is like some type of deluding yourself as well. I get the sense actually that all of this is totally personal to you as a person. Its like you are a walking talking Richard Attenborough or, Dawkins, some man of English reason. Shmarm Shmarm Shmarm. You are so smarmy. If only we could have the exacting and scientific mind like you. Then we would see that the data doesn't lead either way, and certainly not towards a mysterious power outside ourselves.

    I guess you could say that something like electromagnetism or other such x-natural phenomena is directing "all this". Actually lets spend our time breaking it down even further in to cubits of datum and like, build our cosmology up from there.

    All hail Degrass Tyson.
    I don't need to ask any questions here. You need to present a hypothesis if you have made a relevant observation.

    If your "God" is not phenomenal, for all intents and purposes, it is as though it does not exist.

    You say "Nothing being sacred means nothing is treated as sacred"...but if the thing you most treat as sacred cannot be observed, how is that any different?

    It seems in your posts that you are overly fond of attacking the person rather than the argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    @timber @Subteigh stop the quasi identical ILI-LII bickering. You're replaying the whole epistemological debate between rationalist and empiricist philosophers.

    You just have different assuptions on the source of real knowledge and you won't be able to convince each other.
    I probably don't think that anything is knowable. I just don't think I should be expected to believe in something that cannot be observed or which even has contradictory properties.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb View Post
    Well, no one forces you or expects from you to believe anything here, so stop playing the rebel. You seem more interested in saying what you think than understanding other points of view. Maybe learn some manners. That applies to @timber too.

    Knowledge is just belief with some additional 'warrants' required. In your case, those are empirical proofs that from timber's point of view are not necessary to be provided to believe in God. Abstract concepts that transcend observation suffice for him. Case closed.
    Actually, many theistic dogmas do expect me to believe, and I objected to @timber's offensive remarks directed at people who not believe in "God" and who apparently hold nothing to be sacred.

    I think his problem with people like me is that without God, there is nothing which is sacred, whereas my problem with him is that when he holds "God" to be sacred, he holds nothing to be sacred.

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    Religion is usually laden with philosophy and ritual, both which are very idiosyncratic. The illusion of it not being idiosyncratic results when people are "on the same page" or people are not equipped with the faculty to engage fully in idiosyncratic thought.
    Reality is amorphous and iridescent, and it is through the tendency to ensnare it in concepts/language and what have you (like religions lol) that purity of comprehension slips through your grasp. I say this because it is the goal of most religions to be attuned to reality.

    In fact, everything I just wrote down is a trap. However, if you naturally pass through my words instead of partake to them, you have purity of comprehension. Whoops, looks like I have placed another trap!

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    Religion can indeed be a huge part of life for many people, offering guidance, community, and a sense of purpose. It's like a personal GPS that helps navigate life's twists and turns. However, for some, it might not be everything, and that's okay too! Diversity in beliefs enriches our world.

    If you're exploring or seeking guidance, sites like https://whenyouneedgod.com/ can be super helpful. They offer insights, resources, and a community of support for those looking to deepen their spiritual journey. Remember, religion can be a source of comfort and strength, but finding your own path is what truly matters.
    Last edited by octavitharpe; 12-08-2023 at 10:19 AM.

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    My world just revolves around merrymaking during Christmas season. I've searched and searched and there is really nothing worth it. The only reason why I'm not offing myself yet. Thank you horned goat Capricorn savior. Oh wait, sorry that sounds like Baphomet. I meant the OG Vissarion

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Essentially, you think people should ignore their conscience, and follow somebody else's..
    Re-read my response again, I didn't say at all to ignore your conscience, but what I said is that consciousness alone is not enough
    Why ? simply because consciousness is not something everybody has to the same degree : there are those who completely own it , and there are those who completely suppress it in favor of their instincts, most people are to varying degrees between the two , hence the need for external authority in order to prevent people from deviating towards absolute adherence to instincts , if there is no external authority that punishes wrongdoers and people fear it, then it's easier for most people will follow their instincts as they wish

    The Abrahamic religions believe that God killed almost all life on Earth in a flood. Apparently this is not a wrongful and criminal act.
    Classifying God's actions from a humaic point of view is not reasonable , God is not a human.


    Yet if Islam is true, Anne Frank will be tortured in the fires of Hell for eternity for rejecting Islam, as she was a faithful Jew
    It's truly absurd to judge her fate because:

    1- In Islam, torment is conditional on the person knowing the message of God , we don't have (as far as I know) any evidence proving Frank’s knowledge of Islam, her reading about Islam, or her opinion about it

    2- God decides who enters Heaven and Hell, not us

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrel View Post
    Re-read my response again, I didn't say at all to ignore your conscience, but what I said is that consciousness alone is not enough
    Why ? simply because consciousness is not something everybody has to the same degree : there are those who completely own it , and there are those who completely suppress it in favor of their instincts, most people are to varying degrees between the two , hence the need for external authority in order to prevent people from deviating towards absolute adherence to instincts , if there is no external authority that punishes wrongdoers and people fear it, then it's easier for most people will follow their instincts as they wish
    But you do ignore your conscience as you let your religion determine your moral code for you, even if it tells people to kill innocent children. You talk about instincts, but Steven Weinberg made the point I agree with (although I'd said fundamentalist ideology rather than religion) "“With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.”
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrel View Post
    Classifying God's actions from a humaic point of view is not reasonable , God is not a human.
    OK, that just means you cannot claim to be able to distinguish God from Satan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrel View Post
    It's truly absurd to judge her fate because:

    1- In Islam, torment is conditional on the person knowing the message of God , we don't have (as far as I know) any evidence proving Frank’s knowledge of Islam, her reading about Islam, or her opinion about it
    So you're saying that if she found out that Islam preaches that people who reject it are going to be tortured for eternity, she might have followed it? Do you think she would have joined the Nazis too?
    Quran 4
    56. Surely! Those who disbelieved in Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) We shall burn them in Fire. As often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for other skins that they may taste the punishment. Truly, Allah is Ever Most Powerful, All-Wise.
    Quran 22
    16. Thus have We sent it (this Qur'an) down (to Muhammad ) as clear signs, evidences and proofs, and surely, Allah guides whom He wills.

    17. Verily, those who believe (in Allah and in His Messenger Muhammad ), and those who are Jews, and the Sabians, and the Christians, and the Magians, and those who worship others besides Allah, truly, Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection. Verily! Allah is Witness over all things.

    18. See you not that to Allah prostrates whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth, and the sun, and the moon, and the stars, and the mountains, and the trees, and Ad-Dawab (moving living creatures, beasts, etc.), and many of mankind? But there are many (men) on whom the punishment is justified. And whomsoever Allah disgraces, none can honour him. Verily! Allah does what He wills.

    19. These two opponents (believers and disbelievers) dispute with each other about their Lord; then as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them, boiling water will be poured down over their heads.

    20. With it will melt or vanish away what is within their bellies, as well as (their) skins.

    21. And for them are hooked rods of iron (to punish them).

    22. Every time they seek to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be driven back therein, and (it will be) said to them: "Taste the torment of burning!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrel View Post
    2- God decides who enters Heaven and Hell, not us
    How do you know "God" is telling the truth? (Assuming Jibreel accurately recorded Allah's messages, that Muhammad accurately remembered Allah's messages (Islamic accounts shows he often forgot or had verses replaced, and some were even eaten by a sheep), that the early Muslims accurately remembered Muhammad's message etc.). Especially if "God" tells people to kill innocent children, and threatens people with eternal torture for not believing in it? If the Quran is true, it's clear that those who reject Islam and Muhammad will be tortured. So, what you're saying is that you don't believe it is from "God", or that it isn't clear, or that you are not familiar with it.

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    @Subteigh btw , if you want a real example of what would happen if laws and external authority were cancelled, you can read about Marina Abramovic’s Rhythm 0 , she presented herself as an object and allowed the public to do whatever they wanted with her without consequences or restrictions, and she took full responsibility for what would happen to her

    If you want a fictional example, you can watch the Purge film series

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