Have you noticed duality to be more common between some types?

[Bethanyclaire]

@Lolita some thoughts..

But at some point e-type does become fixed? You could argue that socionics is also about dealing with fears..people acting a certain way because this is how they are programmed to survive. You have your tritype in your bio right? Do you not think there is a link between that tritype and you being a high ti user?

Enneagram/tritype is useful for some people to think about as it suits their brains more than socionics, also it simplifies aspects of the psyche down into neat pieces (instincts/stacks, e-type, tritype), which seem easier to compare than comparing socionics types. I see learning about tritype as a kind of a short cut to understanding people rather than learning in-depth socionics. Both socionics and enneagram confused me at first- and gave me unrealistic ideas about compatibility. But you learn from mistakes I guess.

Perhaps it is true that if you put two healthy duals together for long enough, they would eventually dualise? But, in reality it is probably going to be far easier for people to dualise who have some other things in common/or compatible differences, aside from being duals. Perhaps, this can be explained by enneagram/tritype. I haven’t made enough observations to know if I believe it yet. Atm, I am interested in tritype compatibility based on some ideas from the enneagram dual thread.

Also, it’s not easy to spot someone’s tritype but I think if you’re around someone long enough, it will click. (Also need to test this out more )

[Lolita]

@Lolita some thoughts..

But at some point e-type does become fixed? You could argue that socionics is also about dealing with fears..people acting a certain way because this is how they are programmed to survive. You have your tritype in your bio right? Do you not think there is a link between that tritype and you being a high ti user?

Enneagram/tritype is useful for some people to think about as it suits their brains more than socionics, also it simplifies aspects of the psyche down into neat pieces (instincts/stacks, e-type, tritype), which seem easier to compare than comparing socionics types. I see learning about tritype as a kind of a short cut to understanding people rather than learning in-depth socionics. Both socionics and enneagram confused me at first- and gave me unrealistic ideas about compatibility. But you learn from mistakes I guess.

Perhaps it is true that if you put two healthy duals together for long enough, they would eventually dualise? But, in reality it is probably going to be far easier for people to dualise who have some other things in common/or compatible differences, aside from being duals. Perhaps, this can be explained by enneagram/tritype. I haven’t made enough observations to know if I believe it yet. Atm, I am interested in tritype compatibility based on some ideas from the enneagram dual thread.

Also, it’s not easy to spot someone’s tritype but I think if you’re around someone long enough, it will click. (Also need to test this out more )

Enneagram isn't in-born (that's EIE lenses) but yes, it's developed over time based on the person's experiences so their enneagram becomes fixed in adulthood. At no point did Ichazo or Naranjo say that enneagrams is in-born. This is why they used the specific word "fixation" meaning that it's an obsession. You're not born obsessed. You become obsessed over time. That's not the same as cognition which is actually in-born, because that describes how the person is wired (although it doesn't describe why they're wired that way).

Yeah, I have my tritype, but I didn't figure it out. I had 5 duals and 2 identicals independently came up with my tritype. An identical, a benefactor, a supervisor, 2 duals, and 2 kindreds actually typed me as 8 core from knowing me for 2 or more years and they're very well versed in enneagrams. My enneagram and tritype doesn't determine my socionics type, since they're separate. Enneagrams talks about the ego's fears (mainly irrational fears) and taps into a person's emotions. That's not the same as thinking. Socionics explains a person's cognitive motivations. All enneagrams does is give another dimension to understanding a person but it doesn't explain how one set of fears can be "compatible" with another. Fear is fear. Some people can overcome them, some can't. Enneagram is totally self-focused, while Socionics is more about relations and society-focused.

I guess I am a "high" level Ti user, but I don't get pedantic and unlike Ti valuers, I don't care about finding endless info to answer a question that's already been answered before. If you're referring to the naturally hostile attitude people take towards their PoLR and equating it with fear and linking that to enneagram, then no, I'm not scared of Ti, however, it's still my PoLR. I'm just a subtype of SEE that has developed shadow functions. Some people who have developed PoLR functions don't get affected by it much, and for some, it's more intense. Enneagram may be able to explain why the individual has that level of intensity of being (negatively) affected by their PoLR, but doesn't determine it. I don't think I ever was scared of Ti, since my dad is LSI and he taught me Ti all my life. I work in the legal field, that's heavily Ti (but also Te) and I really enjoy it. This isn't to say that because I have developed Ti as SEE-N that another SEE-N is going to be at the same level of Ti development as I am. N subtype just means engagement with Ti, so whether Ti is the type's PoLR or lead, it doesn't matter, it is just a way to identify that the person has Ti accentuation.

One's mental health doesn't eradicate duality. It just happens. I've dualize with some who weren't at their best and over time we became friends. Duality doesn't mean there's an actual personal relationship, although it could develop into one over time. The point of duality is to provide each other assistance while one or both are in stressful situations. Think of it in terms of having an ally during tough times.

[Bethanyclaire]

Enneagram isn't in-born (that's EIE lenses) but yes, it's developed over time based on the person's experiences so their enneagram becomes fixed in adulthood. At no point did Ichazo or Naranjo say that enneagrams is in-born. This is why they used the specific word "fixation" meaning that it's an obsession. You're not born obsessed. You become obsessed over time. That's not the same as cognition which is actually in-born, because that describes how the person is wired (although it doesn't describe why they're wired that way).

Um I suppose so, but I did think maybe sociotype might not be exactly inborn, and could still change in the first few months of life or something, when the parent bonds with the child. Or maybe it is just the enneagram type that begins to develop in response to the environment the baby finds itself in. It does seem like there’s some definite correlations between sociotypes and e-types though. Sociotypes are a product of evolution (response to environment) and enneagram is also response to environment. They both deal with the same data? I thought that maybe enneagram (tritype) can be seen to represent which functions are emphasised in a type. A bit like DCNH does. The emphasis might only be slight, but it could be significant for finding a dual you are compatible with. Or even more significant for finding a non-dual partner. What you said about enneagram tapping into a person’s emotions and being more focused on the self..it’s true- it’s more of an instinct in someone? Also, I think the order of the tritype means something. I plan on going back to the enneagram dual thread to talk more about compatibility there. But essentially @myresearch was talking about how each number in the tritype can be associated with certain values or qualities. You can use the triads (hornevian, harmonic and object relations) to identify these.

946 for example, may be associated with ‘fears’ of each separate type like separation, lack of identity, lack of support but a person will go to great lengths to avoid/challenge those fears- a 9 for example, will act ‘withdrawn’/ take on a ‘positive outlook’ and also become very ‘attached’ to people. (these descriptors are from the triads). The 4 and 6 parts do other things. So maybe a 946 is best with a tritype which complements these obsessions/imbalances.

Yeah, I have my tritype, but I didn't figure it out. I had 5 duals and 2 identicals independently came up with my tritype. An identical, a benefactor, a supervisor, 2 duals, and 2 kindreds actually typed me as 8 core from knowing me for 2 or more years and they're very well versed in enneagrams. My enneagram and tritype doesn't determine my socionics type, since they're separate. Enneagrams talks about the ego's fears (mainly irrational fears) and taps into a person's emotions. That's not the same as thinking. Socionics explains a person's cognitive motivations. All enneagrams does is give another dimension to understanding a person but it doesn't explain how one set of fears can be "compatible" with another. Fear is fear. Some people can overcome them, some can't. Enneagram is totally self-focused, while Socionics is more about relations and society-focused.

I guess I am a "high" level Ti user, but I don't get pedantic and unlike Ti valuers, I don't care about finding endless info to answer a question that's already been answered before. If you're referring to the naturally hostile attitude people take towards their PoLR and equating it with fear and linking that to enneagram, then no, I'm not scared of Ti, however, it's still my PoLR. I'm just a subtype of SEE that has developed shadow functions. Some people who have developed PoLR functions don't get affected by it much, and for some, it's more intense. Enneagram may be able to explain why the individual has that level of intensity of being (negatively) affected by their PoLR, but doesn't determine it. I don't think I ever was scared of Ti, since my dad is LSI and he taught me Ti all my life. I work in the legal field, that's heavily Ti (but also Te) and I really enjoy it. This isn't to say that because I have developed Ti as SEE-N that another SEE-N is going to be at the same level of Ti development as I am. N subtype just means engagement with Ti, so whether Ti is the type's PoLR or lead, it doesn't matter, it is just a way to identify that the person has Ti accentuation.

Enneagram is about the ‘ego’s fears’ and ‘fixations’. Ok- the word fixations makes me think of the lead function in socionics (or ego block?). We do fixate on these things, they seem to be what drives us to get up every day and keep going even when times are hard. We also seem to fixate on the third function, (we wish we were better at it). What you said is interesting- comparing enneagram fears to the polr/4th function. I don’t think I was thinking about that. I just meant that humans are acting on deep instincts to survive- we are programmed to survive. (Btw have a look at this article which is talking about the fourth function but comparing it to the HA? Is that right @Rebelondeck? My Take on Hidden Agenda (socionics.com))

Maybe you can see the rejection of the polr as similar to enneagram fears yeah. And the 1^st, 2^nd and 3^rd function as the defense mechanisms or fixations that we use to deal with that fear. Maybe it’s like fight or flight and in your case, with better than average ti, you fight. I dunnoooo. Lol.

You’ve mentioned shadow functions as did someone else in the thread. This makes me think of MBTI, as I remember reading about shadow functions then. (I do wonder if looking back at mbti might be helpful for me, for streamlining and consolidating some of the socionics knowledge I’ve gained.) Socionics is too much sometimes lol.

If enneagram taps into someone’s emotions, then maybe it can be used for helping discover compatibility? Because your emotions are a big part of you. Let’s compare DCNH with tritype as an idea..I would be harmonising meaning, I have accentuated si and ni. This kind of makes sense for my 946 tritype, known for being anxious and identity seeking (si is to do with feelings in the body? Ni is to do with finding answers?) For you, when I saw your tritype it just made me remember that you had talked about having accentuated ti. 836 seems ti-ish in my mind. I associate 836 with the politics/military and you seem to like discussing political aspects of socionics or let’s say the way the ideas comment on structures in society, and you seem quite passionate about it, ready and willing to fight to have your ideas heard. You will see in the enneagram dual thread that we worked out that my tritype matches up with yours quite well, though ideally I would be with an 836, not 863. Not quite sure why the order matters..but maybe an 836 SEE/SLE would be more likely to be a creative subtype, and therefore more compatible with me (or 964 maybe with you!). Or maybe all that matters is that the 8 is first. Really though, we need to look at the ideas about the triads to compare these tritypes. I guess for the moment I am just trying to show how ennegram can be about emotions/identity like you say.

One's mental health doesn't eradicate duality. It just happens. I've dualize with some who weren't at their best and over time we became friends. Duality doesn't mean there's an actual personal relationship, although it could develop into one over time. The point of duality is to provide each other assistance while one or both are in stressful situations. Think of it in terms of having an ally during tough times.

It's interesting you say this. I hope that’s the case. Sometimes I do think that my lack of success and lack of development might stop me from finding a dual, or a partner. Although I suppose there are lot of other semi-healthy people out there too. And I guess the most important thing is that I feel like I’ve overcome a lot of my problems. Being around good people can really bring out a different side to you as well.

It’s interesting..I suppose from an evolutionary point of view, animal instinct to survive, is what made different types and duals come to exist? For humans to survive, we needed variety and cooperation. Like your comment about sociotype being related to society and relations. Regarding the different ITR..I think there are probably just pros and cons to the different ITR (or the top ones). Maybe other non-dual ITR are proof of humanity's need to live and enjoy life rather than just survive. Our fixations (lead functions) are what drive us, if we didn’t have fixations would we have any fire to drive us? And maybe being different to each other, rubbing against each other, is also kind of a friction that holds us together. Or makes life interesting! I remember in group therapy the teacher said to us that it is our ability to imagine the future (and reflect?) (our fixations??) that makes us human. (Foresee something bad/good happening). Maybe it is also our ability to see value in our differences as well. Soz that's kinda jumbled but yeah.

[myresearch]

Enneagram isn't inborn so is attachment style. Yet, attachment style is an important factor of compatibility, because how we adapt to people and form relationships in our childhood and adolescence determines how are going to interact with our partner when we are adult. Enneagram also show how we interact with external, people, etc, hence it affects the compatibility.

How a person learns to live in external world in their earliest memories have a great impact on how someone's brain is wired and what kind of people they are going to match in the future and relationship compatibility.