A hot take on transgender ideology (and gender ideology)

[Djinn]

I think transgender ideology is a bit strange, tbh.

Look at this link on "oversocialization": OVERSOCIALIZATION (Industrial Society and its Future) (xahlee.org)

I think oversocialization is an idea that Ted Kaczynski came up with, and a very good idea at that. Transgender ideology is an example of oversocialization. I think gender is a convenient pattern that we have put way too much stock into. We took what should have been a practical concept, and did terrible intellectual gymnastics with it to the point of fucking it up. Gender has long been a concept that constricts the way we think and function and is quite frankly, bullshit. The mere existence of transgender people should show us quite clearly that our gender notions have been unsubstantiated and constricting bullshit, but we are slow at pulling ourselves out of this mire of our creation. Too slow.

Even transgender individuals conform to conventional gender norms, just in an inverse way (hence, oversocialization). Their being genuine people stands to correct what we have been messing up for so long, but they end up further substantiating the crux of gender norms by calling themselves "trans-"gender as if some sort of deviant. See, this doesn't actually say gender norms are wrong, but that there is more to it than is initially evident, and thus history repeats itself with terrible intellectual gymnastics piled on top of terrible intellectual gymnastics. We keep complexifying and making significant this concept past a fruitful level and would do best to simplify and render it less significant. Stop giving gender in any form or manifestation such teeming definition and contrast if you don't want it to rupture.

I am male, but I relate to a lot to feminine characteristics. I like flowers, women's clothing, pink, and sometimes display girly behavior among other things. In the past I have gotten very intense feelings of gender dysphoria and seriously thought I would have rather been born female. Yet none of that opposes my sense of masculinity, at least not in recent years, because I (with exceptions due to inevitable social conditioning) stopped seeing the world through a gendered lens. By this I mean I just simply don't notice anything in a gendered context; I don't recognize cis, trans, binary, nonbinary, etc.

I am not oversocialized. Were I, I would be something other than cis for sure.



Alright,
Like I said, a hot take. Yet hopefully one that some found thought-provoking.





EDIT:

The amount of transphobia on this forum is disgusting.

(edit: apparently flames did not direct this at me, but I will still keep my response here)

Oh no, no that wasn’t the point.

The point is that gender has been a terrible concept for a long time (hence, why transgender people exist/need to exist) but I see the direction in which we are moving (establishment of non-cis ideology) as adding to it rather than dismantling it.

Gender ideology is an oversocialized concept, and so consequently is transgender ideology. The best solution is to subtract not add, is what I am trying to say.

Please don’t misunderstand my point because I love the transgender people in my life very much. I merely think the are marching in the wrong direction for something that is truly valid, themselves.

Ok, this thread has had a lot of excitement, lol. When I posted this thread I was trying to illustrate a specific facet of gender ideologies, but I was still ignorant of some things involving the relationship between gender and biology. A lot of posts here have discussed this relationship and helped me learn some things that I was previously unaware of, so I thank you all for that. Yet still, I had intended to touch on the more social facets of gender which have been barely grazed over in this thread, so I want to clarify some things I had in mind when creating the thread.

Look at this link on "oversocialization": OVERSOCIALIZATION (Industrial Society and its Future) (xahlee.org)

Years ago I began experiencing body dysmorphia/gender dysphoria (I don't anymore). At the height of this dysphoric experience I would feel a phantom awareness of female genitalia. Thing is, this experience of mine was the result of social causes rather than biological ones. Growing up, I was surrounded by people who said men do men things and women do women things, so the social conditioning allowed no room for a grey area. There is no clear limit to how far we can stretch gender past a biological basis so these gender notions would extend past biology and onto completely arbitrary ground.

A few examples of the ideology in my social sphere:
Men cook outdoors with grills whereas women cook indoors and use ovens
Men drive trucks whereas women drive anything but trucks
Men like football and boxing whereas women like volleyball and tennis
Men wear clothes for utility whereas women where clothes for fashion
Men don't like pink or purple whereas women do
Men are cool and collected whereas women are emotive and dramatic
Men like action movies whereas women like romantic comedies

I could go on and on and on with this...

Based on this, if one is properly socialized, they are expected to adhere to these conventions that in truth stray far beyond the buddy between your legs or anything else biological. For people who are properly socialized yet may break the society's gender code, there are feelings of dysphoria if one notices they broke the rules. It is also important to emphasize that when men are expected to do all of their respective things without deviation and women are expected to do all of their respective things without deviation, it creates this sort of "all or nothing" mentality. So when somebody breaks the code they are likely to experience some jolting vacillation of identity, and the shock alone is often enough to make people feel marginalized or like some sort of Frankenstein's monster, or even make them think they have done something immoral.

That identity shock and "all or nothing" mentality can consequently lead to someone not identifying with their sex anymore (either in the presence or absence of a biological reason to do so as well, it doesn't matter). For some people, as I experienced, this can lead to phantom limb syndrome. I would get phantom awareness of a vagina I never had, and the detail of this awareness would increase as I learned more about vaginal anatomy (note: I did not will this to happen, it was automatic). The fact that the sensation could change based on knowledge of the anatomy indicates, at least for me, that this was not caused by my biology, but by my psychological state at the time.

The "gender jolt" can be subtle and short in duration, but if recurrent becomes a nagging itch. This can lead to someone wanting to end the torture and just scratch that itch by transitioning, either sexually or ideologically or both, and forget the painful grey areas ignored by social conventions. This is what I meant when I said transgender people merely conform to typical gender norms in an inverse way. I see much of the direction in which gender ideology is headed as an extension of the norms rather than remodeling or dismantling them.

[SGF]

I like pussy, I have a dick, means I'm am male e_e .. to me its as simple as that. (biologically male). IF one is biologically male and capable of procreation, one is meant to be like that by nature. IF the operating system in one's brain or one's brain wiring does not fall in line with one's biological sex.. to me that just means deviancy which can be due to several reasons all of which imply certain levels of defectiveness.. and ends in one being disinclined to fulfill one's biological purpose in life: procreation with the opposite sex.

Society seems to hold a lot of ideas and values which can be cast aside as most people and in general society seems really fucking dumb to me, therefore there is little to no reason to be pressured by what ppl in general think or feel as it only becomes relevant if one allows it to be. So what if one is a guy and likes flowers? Almost every fucking botanist who is a guy likes plants. So what if you like writing sappy petry? Plenty of male poets out there.

This all comes down to ppl's inability to override their fear of rejection by the tribe and it gets better with age and experience. e_e I used to worry about what ppl thought or felt until I discovered most ppl are utter morons and society thinks and does a lot of really stupid bullshit. That solved the problem for me at least:

Tribe dumb like rock, it better if Grug stick with what Grug think right.

[Djinn]

I like pussy, I have a dick, means I'm am male e_e .. to me its as simple as that. (biologically male). IF one is biologically male and capable of procreation, one is meant to be like that by nature. IF the operating system in one's brain or one's brain wiring does not fall in line with one's biological sex.. to me that just means deviancy which can be due to several reasons all of which imply certain levels of defectiveness.. and ends in one being disinclined to fulfill one's biological purpose in life: procreation with the opposite sex.

Society seems to hold a lot of ideas and values which can be cast aside as most people and in general society seems really fucking dumb to me, therefore there is little to no reason to be pressured by what ppl in general think or feel as it only becomes relevant if one allows it to be. So what if one is a guy and likes flowers? Almost every fucking botanist who is a guy likes plants. So what if you like writing sappy petry? Plenty of male poets out there.

This all comes down to ppl's inability to override their fear of rejection by the tribe and it gets better with age and experience. e_e I used to worry about what ppl thought or felt until I discovered most ppl are utter morons and society thinks and does a lot of really stupid bullshit. That solved the problem for me at least:

Tribe dumb like rock, it better if Grug stick with what Grug think right.

Well, Grug seems to get it I suppose. Then again, Grug doesn't seem to get much of anything...

[nanashi]

IF the operating system in one's brain or one's brain wiring does not fall in line with one's biological sex.. to me that just means deviancy which can be due to several reasons all of which imply certain levels of defectiveness.. and ends in one being disinclined to fulfill one's biological purpose in life: procreation with the opposite sex.

completely on it's own and separate from any discussion on human gender constructs, we need, as a socieyt, to look at this anthropomorphizing we do with evolution. it reminds me of the ancient peoples making a deity of the sun our rock happens to circle and acting like the star had feelings.

like....'evolution isn't a process but has feelings and wants grandbabies very seriously.'

[FreelancePoliceman]

Sometimes there’s talk of dysmorphia. I hardly am aware of the body parts I have most of the time, let alone those I don’t, so perhaps I’m particularly unsuited for understanding this, but I have a hard time believing that people can be biologically wired to feel awareness of body parts they never had. If this “glitch” can occur after conception, where are all the women who feel a phantom awareness of larger breasts? Or men having phantom awareness of a bigger dick? And if, say, a man said he felt like he should have a 12-foot-dick, would surgery really be the best way to address that?

Anyway — the trans ideology is rooted in confused thinking and preys on distressed young people. I’m worried at how quickly it’s been growing.

And I think it’s part of a larger trend of essentialism. People are reduced to discrete categories which uniform traits are assigned to, while individuals’ subjective experiences are devalued, even while “lived experience” is such an increasingly popular phrase to toss out. You can see it in how Americans approach race: a black man is like every other black man because of his skin color, regardless of any other differences. Obama and Harris are celebrated for being “black”, even though they’re richer than 99% of people, their families didn’t experience slavery or were the perpetrators of slavery, and actively harmed a lot of black people, and it’s assumed that they have somehow a similar experience as a black person from a ghetto. It’s similar with “gender” — a man feels this way; a woman feels that way; if you feel this way or that way you’re a man or woman; easy as that.

[FreelancePoliceman]

is this not phantom limb syndrome? Could you explain what you mean by it in context of transgender people?

Phantom limb syndrome exists where someone has a limb and then loses it. I’ve never heard of people born with a missing limb experiencing anything like that.

[FreelancePoliceman]

Yeah that’s what I meant

you mentioned dysmorphia in context of transgender people and then said something that sounds closest to phantom limb syndrome (dysmorphia is intense obsession and dysfunctional anxiety around some perceived physical “flaw”)

I see. I meant that often I read articles saying that transsexuals feel they don’t have the right body or right equipment. I don’t think that’s a biological impulse, like they were born with a “female brain” in a male body or something. It’s a psychological problem, not a biological one, to the extent that the two can be distinguished.

[Djinn]

Interesting although the psychology influences the biology and vice versa but does dysphoria (what you mentioned - feeling like you’re in the wrong body) really involve literal awareness of body parts they don’t have or they just feel like they were born in the wrong body? Cuz I’ve never heard of the former wrt dysphoria

Some of the most intense dysphoria I used to get involved sensation of body parts I have never had. I intend on making a post clarifying some points of mine and adding it to the original post.

[flames]

The amount of transphobia on this forum is disgusting.

[Djinn]

The amount of transphobia on this forum is disgusting.

Oh no, no that wasn’t the point.

The point is that gender has been a terrible concept for a long time (hence, why transgender people exist/need to exist) but I see the direction in which we are moving (establishment of non-cis ideology) as adding to it rather than dismantling it.

Gender ideology is an oversocialized concept, and so consequently is transgender ideology. The best solution is to subtract not add, is what I am trying to say.

Please don’t misunderstand my point because I love the transgender people in my life very much. I merely think the are marching in the wrong direction for something that is truly valid, thenselves.

[flames]

Oh no, no that wasn’t the point.

The point is that gender has been a terrible concept for a long time (hence, why transgender people exist/need to exist) but I see the direction in which we are moving (establishment of non-cis ideology) as adding to it rather than dismantling it.

Gender ideology is an oversocialized concept, and so consequently is transgender ideology. The best solution is to subtract not add, is what I am trying to say.

Please don’t misunderstand my point because I love the transgender people in my life very much. I merely think the are marching in the wrong direction for something that is truly valid, thenselves.

No, I wasn’t talking about you.

[Number 9 large]

No, I wasn’t talking about you.

About who then

[SGF]

No, I wasn’t talking about you.

is it really transphobia if one isn't afraid of them tho?

[flames]

is it really transphobia if one isn't afraid of them tho?

Ok, you made me laugh. I still don’t like your opinion, but I’m not going to cancel you over it lol. Unless you’re, like, physically harming or bullying any transgender people but I don’t think you’re that type of person.

[marooned]

it is true that identity politics confuses because while one is supposed to deconstruct all of these social constructs like race and gender, one's identity as a race, gender, etc. is held as all important if it is a marginalized identity. it's like setting the machine to "construct" and "deconstruct" at the same time. it leaves this feeling that one can't quite wrap their head around it all. when the mind can't make sense, then one is left with faith or no faith to settle the difference.

[Adam Strange]

it is true that identity politics confuses because while one is supposed to deconstruct all of these social constructs like race and gender, one's identity as a race, gender, etc. is held as all important if it is a marginalized identity. it's like setting the machine to "construct" and "deconstruct" at the same time. it leaves this feeling that one can't quite wrap their head around it all. when the mind can't make sense, then one is left with faith or no faith to settle the difference.

Blind faith is, ....well...., blind.

[squark]

@DeliMeat I had some similarish ideas I posted HERE

[xerx]

The "genetics" argument against transsexuality is problematic to me.

What happens if we discover that the biological origin of transsexuality is itself genetic? If we were to employ an appeal to nature—as anti-trans. activists do when they employ X/Y chromosomal differences to define gender—we would be forced to conclude that transsexuality, as a natural part of the human condition, is not an aberration, except in so far as society wants it to be. It would be one component of a much larger tree of human variability, and must play a role in any scheme that's used to classify human sex differences.

If it happened because the mother ate something that poisoned her womb, then that's a thornier philosophical question.

[squark]

The "genetics" argument against transsexuality is problematic to me.

What happens if we discover that the biological origin of transsexuality is itself genetic? If we were to employ an appeal to nature—as anti-trans. activists do when they employ X/Y chromosomal differences to define gender—we would be forced to conclude that transsexuality, as a natural part of the human condition, is not an aberration, except in so far as society wants it to be. It would be one component of a much larger tree of human variability, and must play a role in any scheme that's used to classify human sex differences.

If it happened because the mother ate something that poisoned her womb, then that's a thornier philosophical question.

It's not an issue if you separate sex from gender-feelings. In other words, sex is determined chromosomally by the sex chromosomes. How they feel about their biological sex is separate from that. Whether they feel that way because of some wiring in their brain, a genetic mutation not in the sex chromosomes, or some other reason doesn't change their biological sex. They can be separate.

[leckysupport]

It's not an issue if you separate sex from gender-feelings. In other words, sex is determined chromosomally by the sex chromosomes. How they feel about their biological sex is separate from that. Whether they feel that way because of some wiring in their brain, a genetic mutation not in the sex chromosomes, or some other reason doesn't change their biological sex. They can be separate.

I suspect that what trans people experience is more than simply "a feeling".

Perhaps some sort of fundamental misalignment* (with biological sex) in embodied awareness which intrinsically relies and is relied upon by the body in a mutually informing and connected whole.

*Using the word misalignment is probably transphobic but w/e.

[squark]

I suspect that what trans people experience is more than simply "a feeling".

Perhaps some sort of fundamental misalignment* (with biological sex) in embodied awareness which is intrinsically relies and is relied upon by the body in a mutually informing and connected whole.

*Using the word misalignment is probably transphobic but w/e.

What if like the OP suggests, the link to my longer post in the JK thread, and what ooo suggests above is really the larger issue? What if a sex wasn't expected to be any certain way? Then being how they are, dressing however they want, acting like themselves wouldn't necessarily be a disconnect, right? Because right now, it's only accentuating stereotypes. You have people teaching kids that if they like "boy things" they're a boy, and if they like "girl things" they're a girl. I remember when I was a kid people would freak out if a boy played with dolls or something. Oh no, he's gay! It's still not ok apparently, but now it goes even farther, now he's not even a boy anymore. That's how far this is being pushed, and that's really harmful imo. Just let them be who they are, you know?

Regarding body dysmorphia, maybe that would be lessened, or maybe they'd still have it, but people have dysmorphia in ways that aren't associated with sex also.

[Grendel]

If it happened because the mother ate something that poisoned her womb, then that's a thornier philosophical question.

There's also polyfluoroalkyls that break off from plastics accumulating in the biosphere due to human negligence. They have both negative endocrine and neurological effects. This is also why the rate of mental disorders is skyrocketing imo.

I hate when people strawman toxicology as if you think there's some malicious intelligence responsible - no, actually, we invent stupid devices to fulfill temporary needs without grasping their long-term side effects, and they screw us. Most problems with the world are the result of accidents.

If there's a possible physical cause for a problem and also a possible social one, I say we should always Occam to the physical explanation first; they're usually more direct than social causes, which are slower and more ethereal.


I think toxicology is the more charitable answer than genetics, though. If we find a cause to be genetic, there's always going to be that group who argues that this trait's constant presence in the gene pool is a justification for constantly culling it off, lest its numbers balloon and hurt human genetic health; or, if a trait is infertile, that they need to be euthanized for our social health.
The problem with this is that even though a lot of us would consider this stance "inhumane" and dread its implementation, on a grander sociological scale, it's a "strong" stance in that it makes cultures more efficient, so societies that do this are prone to outcompete those that don't.
This makes it a hard position to argue against because it is the more rational stance - if you disagree with it, then you need an ulterior counterargument to defeat it; in this case, an alternate, temporary cause like toxicology.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

lol @flames given the trashy and self-destructive ways I know a lot of cis straight people behave I don't think they really have any room to call other people 'defective.' Even though maybe objectively speaking it is a defect in ways but not too sure about that as they have also often gotten a lot of political and social power. I think it often has a pro-social benefit in the form of entertainment and sex work.

It's also natural in the sense to me that people often aren't always strictly one thing over another but a hybrid version of both or a period of changing into another thing- like a metamorphosis.

[flames]

lol @flames given the trashy and self-destructive ways I know a lot of cis straight people behave I don't think they really have any room to call other people 'defective.' Even though maybe objectively speaking it is a defect in ways but not too sure about that as they have also often gotten a lot of political and social power. I think it often has a pro-social benefit in the form of entertainment and sex work.

It's also natural in the sense to me that people often aren't always strictly one thing over another but a hybrid version of both or a period of changing into another thing- like a metamorphosis.

I’m happy you can understand where I’m coming from and cut me some slack here, even though some other people think I’m being some cookie cutter Fi police bitch, and you have told me in a previous post of yours that you have a desire to leave this place because of the increasing amount of politically corrective SJW Nazism polluting the waters. Maybe I’m even a living example of your point that people aren’t black and white and can be a hybrid of two extremes. I guess I could be somewhere between vulgar immoral terrorist and elitist SJW prude. Nah, I wouldn’t even place myself on the spectrum. I spent most of my life calling myself a Democrat, because I was made to believe that you are either a Republican or a Democrat and whichever of the two was your opposing party is your evil inverse that you are nothing like and meant to eradicate if possible.... In reality, I don’t think they are even opposites of a spectrum - they do a lot of the same shit but have superficially conflicting forms of propaganda to make it to the top. I’m actually a Socialist that does not like or want to associate with either of the political alignments, or promote the continued existence of either mob mentalities or a system that functions solely on the two party system that was never intended to give the common people any true form of power.

Some of the more toxic cultural norms shared by cis straight people aren’t inherently incorrect just because the underdogs say so, and we must go along with it because the rebellion is always the right side in the face of the oppressive Empire... but a good amount of what we’re raised to think is “normal” without questioning from the majority cis straight white patriarchy (feel free to add in whatever buzzwords I missed ) is simply designed to trample on the minorities that threaten that majority. Nowadays, the Internet and modern technology give us the ability to discover millions of other people that aren’t society’s standards and those people have been able to find unity in a way they never could have before we had this junk. When so many people are outcasts in the exact same fashion (for the same reason) they begin to realize they are supposed to be that way and they are just as normal as the “regular” people that outnumber them and control us. And the normies feel threatened by this and want to maintain the status quo they created. So, homophobic people, for example, will joke that they are not because they’re not scared of some fags - but they really are scared of the idea that they will outnumber them one day if we accept their existence as another kind of normal.

I’m not saying Nazis and Jews are really supposed to coexist in harmony and they’re both right in what they believe, but things that run deeper... like things we are born as that we can’t change... I think should coexist with equality, like white vs black, straight vs gay... Just because one thing is more abundant than the other doesn’t mean they’re not all normal ways of being human. It’s not something we should kill each other over and I don’t think I’m unreasonable in suggesting that. If my wish for humanity to get on the same page regarding that, and my rare displays of shaming things others say or do that defies that as a end goal for our species makes me an “SJW”, so be it. I’d rather be harshly silenced for apparently being some delusional special snowflake hellbent on brainwashing the masses than normalize us turning against each other when we should be focusing on better things we can do until we go extinct and run out of time to do it.

I don’t think I’m better than people who don’t have the same vision because their opposing visions exist for a reason, too. We evolved to instinctively react these ways in our heads so we can choose the best option for our survival. Unity and individualized tribalism both play an important role in our history. Nature gave us these options because the harsh truth is that one way of living might not succeed in our survival - there has to be several unconscious instincts to act off so that something will work and inevitably one will prove to be correct over the rest. Maybe I’m wrong and we’re destined to divide ourselves as much as we can and eliminate the weaker tribes until the chosen group establish their supreme dominance and therefore secure the infinite existence of human kind - minorities in this scenario exist only to cause endless war until we wipe each other out off the face of the planet altogether when they simply could have submitted to the majority normies until they no longer existed in the first place. But I tend to think this is the philosophy behind genocides, race wars, cultural erasure, eternal conflict and other things most people with common sense nowadays deem evil.

The other option is for us to keep embracing co existence of every distinct group of people no matter how different until we achieve peace and therefore secure our infinite survival because we will no longer needlessly kill each other to extinction and instead focus on even greater means of survival that we’ve been pushing off in favor of our inability to support each other’s existence. Yes, unfortunately this route means that what is considered a majority type of people today will eventually become a minority and that feels scary to a lot of us, but nature is only going to allow what differing trait among us becomes the majority that has the most potential for success. So, yeah, white people will be a minority one day as we keep mixing with other races at a growing rate, but skin color won’t make or break our future. Unfortunately, this also means being homosexual will always be the minority to heterosexuality, because only one orientation provides procreation. BUT both will keep growing bigger as our population peaks so the acceptance of the “unnatural” disposition will get bigger as well and not threaten the majority in the process - homosexuality has always been a naturally occurring thing in numerous animals on earth besides us and was never the reason any of them went extinct.

Alright, I’ve done enough waxing philosophical for one day.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

@squark

I admit I'm a bit sheltered but I don't know any straight guys that played with dolls/barbies much as a kid. I'm sure there's lots of them though that if they tried to 'come out' about it then everybody would just start thinking they were gay hence the stereotypes become even firmer. So why even do it if it's just gonna raise annoying questions and bring up stereotypes.

I played with barbies as a kid but not really in a 'polite way' - I made them have brutal fight scenes with each other lol so it was kinda like gay/str8 mixed I guess.

I fit the stereotype of gay in that I am really non athletic lol @ my 1D Se but I know so many gays who are very good at sports.

[nanashi]

@squark

I admit I'm a bit sheltered but I don't know any straight guys that played with dolls/barbies much as a kid. I'm sure there's lots of them though that if they tried to 'come out' about it then everybody would just start thinking they were gay hence the stereotypes become even firmer. So why even do it if it's just gonna raise annoying questions and bring up stereotypes.

I played with barbies as a kid but not really in a 'polite way' - I made them have brutal fight scenes with each other lol so it was kinda like gay/str8 mixed I guess.

I fit the stereotype of gay in that I am really non athletic lol @ my 1D Se but I know so many gays who are very good at sports.

I do know hetero feeler guys who for example took their T sister's Barbies and in an non sexual way changed their clothes and played out scenarios with them like putting them in rollerblades, etc ; teared up in middle school that they wanted to babysit but no adults would ask them because they were a guy even though they were great with kids.


I've worked with a thousand kids, and I have seen dudes that were allowed to be their personality and their sex and their sexuality and were doing human things like cuddling babies and working in childcare and doing nurturing things. I've seen women and girls that were allowed to be their personality and their sex and their sexuality and were doing human things like working on their vehicles and other peoples' vehicles and offering their male colleagues at work the hex wrench they carry with them so the young guy could adjust his bike seat, get in physical fights (assault) instead of using their words, love debates and engage in them when other people wandered off.

I've also seen the opposite...where people are behaviorally conditioned to NOT act like they have either their personality, sex, or sexuality or a combination of them. Those people can act out caricatures of the gender roles like they're Stepford husbands/wives.

I've seen little boys who love wearing nail polish but aren't seeing themselves as by sex a female and are not thinking they have to give up playing with a baby doll or liking finger nail polish if they want to keep having the body they have or the personality they have.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

it is true that identity politics confuses because while one is supposed to deconstruct all of these social constructs like race and gender, one's identity as a race, gender, etc. is held as all important if it is a marginalized identity.

Yeah I think the media/society should stop this idea that any one group are some innocent persecuted angels even though there is still a problem of being bullied for X. They do this for women, gays, blacks, trans, "the working middle class" as this attempt to seem morally superior when they actually don't do anything to correct the issue as they need the other group to always be an eternal victim so they can be the 'Heroes' anyway. So nothing ever really gets changed and both sides don't come to any understanding or peaceful resolution. Reality is too complicated for one group to always be in a victimized status. Most people are a mixture of "perpetrator" and "victim." And if they push the issue too much it makes people think it's naturally wrong and part of satan's agenda anyway.

[ooo]

in my language there's no real distinction between gender and sex when it comes to these things, we have only one term to describe trans people, they're "transessuali" = transsexual. and that's it.

i like this simplicity because sex and gender do obviously overlap and I find it complicates things further to distinguish between "what you ought to be" "what you feel" "what you really are" "what you wish you were" "the errors nature made" etc etc...

transsexuality always existed, so much that in archaic times and in some places still today, transsexuals were considered sort of holy and their deviation was entitled with divine roles, in other cases it was condemned, but point is, it always existed. like hermaphrodites exist.

the distinction between sex and gender comes into play because of this impossibility to ascertain whether a trans person is this or that, so that "I'm a man in the body of a biological woman" excuses both divides and tells people exactly what's in front of them. or maybe it's a way to create more understanding around this topic, by taking apart and labeling the single parts that constitute a sexual being, like we all are.

with this, idk what i want to say, because the matter is not made any simpler by giving out 3 thousand terms or analyzing the single digits that make up the total part.

what i really wonder about this all is : would we still have the need to identify as "something else" if all genders were truly equal and allowed to express themselves without condemnation? and i imagine the answer would probably be, no.

[squark]

what i really wonder about this all is : would we still have the need to identify as "something else" if all genders were truly equal and allowed to express themselves without condemnation? and i imagine the answer would probably be, no.

Yeah, a lot of all of this has to do with stereotypes and expecting everyone to conform to those stereotypes imo like the OP was getting at.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

@flames

Nah you were just voicing your concerns and I mostly agree with you. <3 You weren't trying to overly police what ppl say or what to think or how to behave or anything so there was nothing at all with voicing ur opinion. Don't worry I love you. =D

I agree there is too much trans bullying- I mean the trans people often aren't nice about it and have been rude/bullied others themselves but I think when you've been treated like crap a lot of your life you get tired of being nice and start demanding and taking respect rather than being all polite about it so I don't really blame them for being this way.... but it's also true that objectively speaking, most people are just going to be kind of straight and cisgendered and normal ((and boring and value Fi haha)) and that's the way society just is and so society is kind of naturally shaped to the default Basic Bitch whether we like it or not. So often times we are more forced to be like them instead of them being more like us. So I don't like the equal rights thing often because it just really turns into a thing where I am heteronormatized more than they are homo-tized. And it's kinda dumb and too pc because obviously, we're not all equal. BUT we should still be equal under the law cuz the law is supposed to be blind and about balanncing the scales.

Actually I had a talk with this with my mom this morning and it wasn't about gays/trans specifically but about another minority group and basically it came down to my mom saying the minority should work extra harder to be accepted by the majority because they are the minority and you have to appeal to the majority as it's much safer that way but I said that goes both ways though and said the majority should also listen to the minority. As almost everybody has minority traits they need acceptance from. I do think it goes both ways, I mean if you truly want a peaceful resolution & not wish to simply be the one that holds the whip. I shouldn't be forced to always bend over backwards for a breeder ((I used the term breeder affectionately there! Mostly.. hehe)) if they aren't gonna do the same for me sometimes that isn't fair or right. We're not all 'equal' as in we're not all the same but I think we should all be considered equal under the law- as the law is supposed to be the equalizing force. Diversity is what I want, not Sameness.

[Nobody]

So uhh...as somebody that struggled with gender for awhile and finally came to the conclusion that I'm some kind of agender, there does seem to be a lot of interesting evidence for gender being a structural part of the brain. For example, I found out that people that relate with feeling like they are probably on some kind of autistic spectrum, are much more often to identify the way I do, where they feel like they are both genders or neither or in between.

There's also studies done by the Chinese that found MTF transgenders have brain scans that closely match genetic females and not genetic males (before they take hormones, that is). And certain things, like left-handedness, increases your probably for being gay, bisexual, transgender, cross-dresser, having fetishes, things like that, which definitely comes from the brain. There's also a condition, known as AIS, where a genetic male will not react to the testosterone in their body and will develop and look like and feel like and enjoy sex like a female with men. They may not even know they are XY until they hit puberty and have a medical problem and then find testicles where their ovaries should be. There's also something that goes on with mothers where if they already had a son, each son born after has a higher chance of being gay and I think that percentage goes up with each birth - https://www.pnas.org/content/115/2/234. It's all pretty interesting.

Conversely, there's a lot of hate and backlash in Western society, where for whatever reasons, people want to pretend gender is just a subjective thing created by society and look to justify that, rather than do a more scientific look in the brain. Now that's not to say there isn't some truth to that either, but the real truth has got to be somewhere in the middle somewhere. So it seems a bit naive for Western people to trivial gender as enforced by society or something like that.

[SGF]

So uhh...as somebody that struggled with gender for awhile and finally came to the conclusion that I'm some kind of agender, there does seem to be a lot of interesting evidence for gender being a structural part of the brain. For example, I found out that people that relate with feeling like they are probably on some kind of autistic spectrum, are much more often to identify the way I do, where they feel like they are both genders or neither or in between.

There's also studies done by the Chinese that found MTF transgenders have brain scans that closely match genetic females and not genetic males (before they take hormones, that is). And certain things, like left-handedness, increases your probably for being gay, bisexual, transgender, cross-dresser, having fetishes, things like that, which definitely comes from the brain. There's also a condition, known as AIS, where a genetic male will not react to the testosterone in their body and will develop and look like and feel like and enjoy sex like a female with men. They may not even know they are XY until they hit puberty and have a medical problem and then find testicles where their ovaries should be. There's also something that goes on with mothers where if they already had a son, each son born after has a higher chance of being gay and I think that percentage goes up with each birth - https://www.pnas.org/content/115/2/234. It's all pretty interesting.

Conversely, there's a lot of hate and backlash in Western society, where for whatever reasons, people want to pretend gender is just a subjective thing created by society and look to justify that, rather than do a more scientific look in the brain. Now that's not to say there isn't some truth to that either, but the real truth has got to be somewhere in the middle somewhere. So it seems a bit naive for Western people to trivial gender as enforced by society or something like that.

hmm, yeah it would make sense that there is a biological cause for how they feel / think.

I had a bisexual gf in college and she had a lot of non normie friends / they felt alienated by normal society for being different. Its through her and interacting with them that I discovered that I can't override my standard normie vanilla heterosexual nature. Its hardwired into me. e_e I felt very out of place and weirded out being with her tbh.. and gradually came to realize I just didn't belong because I was like most ppl :/

I'm 100% convinced she can't help being herself, curiously she had other oddities like almost dying at birth and inability to smell things, used to nervously always ask me to check if she smells bad, or if food smells good and so on. Told me she can't sense any smells.

[theum nathair]

Conversely, there's a lot of hate and backlash in Western society, where for whatever reasons, people want to pretend gender is just a subjective thing created by society and look to justify that, rather than do a more scientific look in the brain. Now that's not to say there isn't some truth to that either, but the real truth has got to be somewhere in the middle somewhere. So it seems a bit naive for Western people to trivial gender as enforced by society or something like that.

There is a lot of speculation, probably because most people are aware it isn't possible to prove anything at this point. Proof would come from genetics, not the brain, and genetic information degenerates (somewhat) in time due to copying/transcription errors which can be re-copied till the organism dies.

Once a person is old enough to show gendered behaviour, they've already been exposed to numerous influences, social and chemical.

Brain scans are not evidence of anything... Structural alterations have been shown for decades in cases of depression, pregnancy, memory, and therefore inevitably with indoctrination as well--repeated global cognitive processes cause structural shifts.

Chinese medical research does not consistently meet first-world empirical standards, which might of course have something to do with the entire country living behind a firewall which instils naivete (this is almost certainly deliberate)

The problem with these types of discussions lies in dilettante medical theorising that gleefully dispenses with fact. Original post was rather good, and some that followed were as well.

[Lolita]

Take note. It’s the Fe egos that perpetuate cancel culture if you don’t share the same views as they do.

There is no “theory” behind gender. You’re either a man or a woman, girl or boy, masculine or feminine. The parameters for defining what belongs in what category could change due to different cultures and time periods, but much of it is tied to how gender is saddled as the social satellite of biology- male or female.

You can say you’re born male but you identify as a feminine gender, but just because that’s what you identify as, doesn’t change the fact that you were still born physically male and people are naturally going to have a hard time accepting you as a “she” if you exhibit physical markers that you’re actually a “he.”

[flames]

Take note. It’s the Fe egos that perpetuate cancel culture if you don’t share the same views as they do.

It’s not limited to any type and I’ve seen various types participate in it. But I actually think it’s more Fi than anything - IEEs and ESIs seem to be the biggest types behind it, in my opinion. Fi is the function of values/morals and likes/dislikes and prefers to avoid the things that defy that (especially -Fi and/or when coupled with Se) or move towards what embodies it. ESI is literally cancel culture served as a type - they will not hesitate to cut anyone out of their life the very minute they see one thing about them that they don’t like or goes against their values, and they give zero chances for the other person to get back in contact with them or change/prove them wrong and sometimes they preface it by telling you why you suck, if you’re lucky. That is so very bizarre and unlike me that it never ceases to shell shock me when it happens to me, personally. I am rubbed the wrong why by that behavior and even when I try to incorporate the mindset myself I cannot enforce it very long (when I try to, it’s usually because I’m hanging around someone extremely toxic and someone else is urging me to cut them off because I never will myself).

I don’t really care about cancel culture either way, but I tend to dislike it more than anything. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and I can’t ignore how complex we all are and what we are capable of doing or becoming, or that with good there’s always bad, vice versa, etc. Unless we’re canceling rapists or pedophiles and other sick fucks, then I’m all in. I am actually attracted to shitty people most of the time and swing the door wide open for them. But there are still a handful of people I think I have ‘canceled’ - not that I’m entirely sure what that’s even supposed to mean because from what I’ve seen it seems to range from only talking shit about them when their name comes up to intricately trying to destroy their life lol.

I know Fe likes to flow with the group norms or feelings so they may lean into the habit, too. But a lot of times they totally forget or ignore the things it looks like they’re fighting for as soon as they’ve left the crowd they were with or they’re morally ambiguous/flexible in general; they can also have a strong sense of values but knowingly break them or frequently hang with people that do. I’m sure there’s other things I’m missing as well.

A lot of the morals the cancel culture people hold are not the same as what the mainstream holds, which is a reason why so many people hate on it besides thinking they’re taking shit too far.

Not everything you hate is Fe.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Conversely, there's a lot of hate and backlash in Western society, where for whatever reasons, people want to pretend gender is just a subjective thing created by society and look to justify that, rather than do a more scientific look in the brain.

Yeah! That was such a good point, thank you. I mean - it's pretty funny and annoying how so many people think GLBT are part of the Illuminati's Agenda when the Illuminati have hated my guts my entire life as I've always exposed them. They really are bigoted and refuse to confront their prejudices and I don't throw that phrase around lightly everytime there is a small misunderstanding or with normal people but it happens consistently enough where it's problem.

Yes, we are just born that way scientifically it's not some conspiracy theory to get you to french kiss Reptile Demons. Some breeders are really stupid sometimes. xD

[nanashi]

also, it makes sense that someone's brain scans differ from other peoples' based even ONLY on their behaviors---because you're literally rewriting your brain AS YOU READ THIS by all your choices.

Remember hearing how eyewitnesses remember about remembering about the situation they observed rather than remember the actual incident completely?

This is a great thing....it's how we can manage trauma...it's how we can learn...it's how we grow our relationships and rethink our ideologies.

People tried to tie the validity of being lbgtqia+ to whether someone's brainscan showed something distinct....there are many problems with that, not least of all that they can start targetting and harassing 'Kevin who says he's gay but whose brain is the same on scans as his brothers'. Then his well-meaning but religious parents, looking at the unproven supposition that ONLY the people with brains that look a certain way are REALLY gay, send Kevin to 'you're not gay, buddy' reprogramming camp and refuse to allow him to date males and disown him when he does as an adult because they think it's enabling his delusions.










"Can You Tell Which Brains Are Male? Neither Can These Scientists
Scientists who tried very hard to find distinct differences between male and female brains say they can’t do it.
The volumes (green = large, yellow = small) of brain regions in 42 adults, showing the overlap between the forms that brains of females and brains of males can take.

The volumes (green = large, yellow = small) of brain regions in 42 adults, showing the overlap between the forms that brains of females and brains of males can take. Image courtesy of Zohar Berman and Daphna Joel. / Tel Aviv University
Nov. 30, 2015, 8:59 PM PST / Updated Nov. 30, 2015, 9:25 PM PST
By Maggie Fox
Scientists who tried very hard to find differences between male and female brains said they couldn’t do it — not with brain scans and not even by asking seemingly obvious questions such as whether someone likes boxing or worries about his or her mother.

They couldn’t find any single pattern that distinguishes between a male brain and a female brain, and say only a very small percentage of people fall under clear all-male or all female brain patterns.

“Our study demonstrates that although there are sex/gender differences in brain structure, brains do not fall into two classes, one typical of males and the other typical of females, nor are they aligned along a ‘male brain–female brain’ continuum,” Daphna Joel of Tel Aviv University and colleagues wrote.

"Brains do not fall into two classes, one typical of males and the other typical of females."

In fact, they found, most people are somewhere between clichéd ideas of male and female when it comes to brains, they said.

Joel’s team looked at magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scans of the brains of more than 1,400 people of all ages from around the world, including Americans, Chinese, Germans and Australians.

They did find some regions of the brain that tended to indicate sex differences. But when they considered these regions together across all their brain scans, the picture just got muddy, they reported in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

Anywhere between 23 percent and 53 percent of the MRIs had at least one region with a “male-end” score and one region with a “female-end” score, they found. And at the most, 8 percent of the brain scans showed someone whose brain regions all scored “male” or “female.”

"There are very few individuals who are consistently at the ‘female-end’ or at the ‘male-end’."

“Our study demonstrates that, although there are sex/gender differences in the brain, human brains do not belong to one of two distinct categories: male brain/female brain,” they wrote.

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Other researchers have found some of the seemingly clear differences between male and female brains may be cultural rather than biological -- spatial sense, for instance.

Just to be really certain, they looked at a study of 157 women and 106 men done at a large Midwestern university that was designed to tease out sex differences in thinking. It included subjects such a gambling, housework, playing golf, watching porn or cosmetics that could be considered about as stereotypical as possible when it comes to gender differences.

Even there, they couldn’t find a consistent pattern that predicted whether someone was male or female.

“In other words, even when considering highly stereotypical gender behaviors, there are very few individuals who are consistently at the ‘female-end’ or at the ‘male-end’, but there are many individuals who have both ‘female-end’ and ‘male-end’ characteristics,” they wrote."" https://www.nbcnews.com/better/welln...-these-n471751




When it comes to whether someone's REALLY anything, believe people know themselves better than you do because it's incredibly unreasonable to believe otherwise in virtually all cases.Actively challenge disequity or bullying of or inconsiderate digging at ppl who are lbgtqia+ about their status. So what if Todd realises he's gay at a stage in his life that you are not used to people realizing that at? It's Todd's path. Some people don't really get into exploring their sexuality until they're older.


But we can't cling to brainscans as some proof of someone not being stereotypically male enough to be heterosexual and thus being gay. That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.

[Nobody]

also, it makes sense that someone's brain scans differ from other peoples' based even ONLY on their behaviors---because you're literally rewriting your brain AS YOU READ THIS by all your choices.

Remember hearing how eyewitnesses remember about remembering about the situation they observed rather than remember the actual incident completely?

This is a great thing....it's how we can manage trauma...it's how we can learn...it's how we grow our relationships and rethink our ideologies.

People tried to tie the validity of being lbgtqia+ to whether someone's brainscan showed something distinct....there are many problems with that, not least of all that they can start targetting and harassing 'Kevin who says he's gay but whose brain is the same on scans as his brothers'. Then his well-meaning but religious parents, looking at the unproven supposition that ONLY the people with brains that look a certain way are REALLY gay, send Kevin to 'you're not gay, buddy' reprogramming camp and refuse to allow him to date males and disown him when he does as an adult because they think it's enabling his delusions.










"Can You Tell Which Brains Are Male? Neither Can These Scientists
Scientists who tried very hard to find distinct differences between male and female brains say they can’t do it.
The volumes (green = large, yellow = small) of brain regions in 42 adults, showing the overlap between the forms that brains of females and brains of males can take.

The volumes (green = large, yellow = small) of brain regions in 42 adults, showing the overlap between the forms that brains of females and brains of males can take. Image courtesy of Zohar Berman and Daphna Joel. / Tel Aviv University
Nov. 30, 2015, 8:59 PM PST / Updated Nov. 30, 2015, 9:25 PM PST
By Maggie Fox
Scientists who tried very hard to find differences between male and female brains said they couldn’t do it — not with brain scans and not even by asking seemingly obvious questions such as whether someone likes boxing or worries about his or her mother.

They couldn’t find any single pattern that distinguishes between a male brain and a female brain, and say only a very small percentage of people fall under clear all-male or all female brain patterns.

“Our study demonstrates that although there are sex/gender differences in brain structure, brains do not fall into two classes, one typical of males and the other typical of females, nor are they aligned along a ‘male brain–female brain’ continuum,” Daphna Joel of Tel Aviv University and colleagues wrote.

"Brains do not fall into two classes, one typical of males and the other typical of females."

In fact, they found, most people are somewhere between clichéd ideas of male and female when it comes to brains, they said.

Joel’s team looked at magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scans of the brains of more than 1,400 people of all ages from around the world, including Americans, Chinese, Germans and Australians.

They did find some regions of the brain that tended to indicate sex differences. But when they considered these regions together across all their brain scans, the picture just got muddy, they reported in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

Anywhere between 23 percent and 53 percent of the MRIs had at least one region with a “male-end” score and one region with a “female-end” score, they found. And at the most, 8 percent of the brain scans showed someone whose brain regions all scored “male” or “female.”

"There are very few individuals who are consistently at the ‘female-end’ or at the ‘male-end’."

“Our study demonstrates that, although there are sex/gender differences in the brain, human brains do not belong to one of two distinct categories: male brain/female brain,” they wrote.

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Other researchers have found some of the seemingly clear differences between male and female brains may be cultural rather than biological -- spatial sense, for instance.

Just to be really certain, they looked at a study of 157 women and 106 men done at a large Midwestern university that was designed to tease out sex differences in thinking. It included subjects such a gambling, housework, playing golf, watching porn or cosmetics that could be considered about as stereotypical as possible when it comes to gender differences.

Even there, they couldn’t find a consistent pattern that predicted whether someone was male or female.

“In other words, even when considering highly stereotypical gender behaviors, there are very few individuals who are consistently at the ‘female-end’ or at the ‘male-end’, but there are many individuals who have both ‘female-end’ and ‘male-end’ characteristics,” they wrote."" https://www.nbcnews.com/better/welln...-these-n471751




When it comes to whether someone's REALLY anything, believe people know themselves better than you do because it's incredibly unreasonable to believe otherwise in virtually all cases.Actively challenge disequity or bullying of or inconsiderate digging at ppl who are lbgtqia+ about their status. So what if Todd realises he's gay at a stage in his life that you are not used to people realizing that at? It's Todd's path. Some people don't really get into exploring their sexuality until they're older.


But we can't cling to brainscans as some proof of someone not being stereotypically male enough to be heterosexual and thus being gay. That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.

Oh jeez, the Western propaganda machine strikes again. Ignoring the obvious fact that sexual dysmorphism is a thing and anyone claiming that men and women's brains are going to be the same obviously has an agenda, let's look at some real research and not this Buzzfeed-esque thing you've linked here. And just for the record, nobody is saying the difference is going to huge. Humans share 99% DNA with chimpanzees, yet we are pretty distinctively different in our intelligence and appearance. If this article was actually scientific, it wouldn't look to support its hypothesis, it would explain how its hypothesis could be right AND WRONG and look at how the study could be biased or flawed and try to account for that. All things that actual research does and I'm going to link below.

And yes, I'm slightly agitated that you posted this because it's bringing back memories of the asshats that want to suggest this is all made up or influenced by society or something. Like my god, I guess I know how gays must have felt when people claimed they could convert them straight with therapy or something. I mean, wow, just wow. People are so quick to discount what other people know about themselves, it's incredible.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes...20orientation.

Brain structure[edit]

General[edit]

Several studies have found a correlation between gender identity and brain structure.^[8] A first-of-its-kind study by Zhou et al. (1995) found that in a region of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a region which is known for sex and anxiety responses (and which is affected by prenatal androgens),^[9] cadavers of six persons who were described as having been male-to-female transsexual or transgender persons in life had female-normal BSTc size, similar to the study's cadavers of cisgender women. While those identified as transsexual had taken hormones, this was accounted for by including cadavers of non-transsexual male and female controls who, for a variety of medical reasons, had experienced hormone reversal. The controls still had sizes typical for their gender. No relationship to sexual orientation was found.^[10]
In a follow-up study, Kruijver et al. (2000) looked at the number of neurons in BSTc instead of volumes. They found the same results as Zhou et al. (1995), but with even more dramatic differences. One MtF subject, who had never gone on hormones, was also included and matched up with the female neuron counts nonetheless.^[11]
In 2002, a follow-up study by Chung et al. found that significant sexual dimorphism (variation between sexes) in BSTc did not become established until adulthood. Chung et al. theorized that either changes in fetal hormone levels produce changes in BSTc synaptic density, neuronal activity, or neurochemical content which later lead to size and neuron count changes in BSTc, or that the size of BSTc is affected by the generation of a gender identity inconsistent with one's assigned sex.[SUP][12][/SUP]
It has been suggested that the BSTc differences may be due to the effects of hormone replacement therapy. It has also been suggested that because pedophilic offenders have also been found to have a reduced BSTc, a feminine BSTc may be a marker for paraphilias rather than transsexuality.^[2]
In a review of the evidence in 2006, Gooren confirmed the earlier research as supporting the concept of transsexuality as a sexual differentiation disorder of the sex dimorphic brain.^[13] Dick Swaab (2004) concurs.^[14]
In 2008, a new region with properties similar to that of BSTc in regards to transsexuality was found by Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab: the interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH3), part of the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus. The same method of controlling for hormone usage was used as in Zhou et al. (1995) and Kruijver et al. (2000). The differences were even more pronounced than with BSTc; control males averaged 1.9 times the volume and 2.3 times the neurons as control females, yet regardless of hormone exposure, MtF transsexuals were within the female range and the FtM transsexual within the male range.^[15]
A 2009 MRI study by Luders et al. of 24 MtF transsexuals not yet treated with cross-sex hormones found that regional gray matter concentrations were more similar to those of cisgender men than to those of cisgender women, but there was a significantly larger volume of gray matter in the right putamen compared to cisgender men. Like earlier studies, it concluded that transsexuality was associated with a distinct cerebral pattern.[SUP][16][/SUP] (MRI allows easier study of larger brain structures, but independent nuclei are not visible due to lack of contrast between different neurological tissue types, hence other studies on e.g. BSTc were done by dissecting brains post-mortem.)
An additional feature was studied comparing 18 female-to-male transsexuals who had not yet received cross-sex hormones with 24 male and 19 female gynephilic controls, using an MRI technique called diffusion tensor imaging or DTI.^[17] DTI is a specialized technique for visualizing white matter of the brain, and white matter structure is one of the differences in neuroanatomy between men and women. The study took into account fractional anisotropy values for white matter in the medial and posterior parts of the right superior longitudinal fasciculus (SLF), the forceps minor, and the corticospinal tract. Rametti et al. (2010) discovered that, "Compared to control females, FtM showed higher FA values in posterior part of the right SLF, the forceps minor and corticospinal tract. Compared to control males, FtM showed only lower FA values in the corticospinal tract."^[17] The white matter pattern in female-to-male transsexuals was found to be shifted in the direction of biological males.
Hulshoff Pol et al. (2006) studied the gross brain volume of 8 male-to-female transsexuals and in six female-to-male transsexuals undergoing hormone treatment. They found that hormones changed the sizes of the hypothalamus in a gender consistent manner: treatment with male hormones shifted the hypothalamus towards the male direction in the same way as in male controls, and treatment with female hormones shifted the hypothalamus towards the female direction in the same way as female controls. They concluded: "The findings suggest that, throughout life, gonadal hormones remain essential for maintaining aspects of sex-specific differences in the human brain."^[18]
A 2016 review agreed with the other reviews when considering androphilic trans women and gynephilic trans men. It reported that hormone treatment may have large effects on the brain, and that cortical thickness, which is generally thicker in cisgender women's brains than in cisgender men's brains, may also be thicker in trans women's brains, but is present in a different location to cisgender women's brains.^[2] It also stated that for both trans women and trans men, "cross-sex hormone treatment affects the gross morphology as well as the white matter microstructure of the brain. Changes are to be expected when hormones reach the brain in pharmacological doses. Consequently, one cannot take hormone-treated transsexual brain patterns as evidence of the transsexual brain phenotype because the treatment alters brain morphology and obscures the pre-treatment brain pattern."^[2]
Androphilic male-to-female transsexuals[edit]

(edit: I'm going to stop bolding stuff because if people actually want to read it, they can and I'm pretty much bolding everything at this point to make my point)

Studies have shown that androphilic male-to-female transsexuals show a shift towards the female direction in brain anatomy. In 2009, a German team of radiologists led by Gizewski compared 12 androphilic transsexuals with 12 cisgender males and 12 cisgender females. Using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI), they found that when shown erotica, the cisgender men responded in several brain regions that the cisgender women did not, and that the sample of androphilic transsexuals was shifted towards the female direction in brain responses.^[19]
In another study, Rametti and colleagues used diffusion tensor imaging (DTI) to compare 18 androphilic male-to-female transsexuals with 19 gynephilic males and 19 androphilic cisgender females. The androphilic transsexuals differed from both control groups in multiple brain areas, including the superior longitudinal fasciculus, the right anterior cingulum, the right forceps minor, and the right corticospinal tract. The study authors concluded that androphilic transsexuals were halfway between the patterns exhibited by male and female controls.^[20]
A 2016 review reported that early-onset androphilic transgender women have a brain structure similar to cisgender women's and unlike cisgender men's, but that they have their own brain phenotype.^[2]
Gynephilic male-to-female transsexuals[edit]

Research on gynephilic trans women is considerably limited.^[2] While MRI taken on gynephilic male-to-female transsexuals have likewise shown differences in the brain from non-transsexuals, no feminization of the brain's structure have been identified.^[2] Neuroscientists Ivanka Savic and Stefan Arver at the Karolinska Institute used MRI to compare 24 gynephilic male-to-female transsexuals with 24 cisgender male and 24 cisgender female controls. None of the study participants were on hormone treatment. The researchers found sex-typical differentiation between the MtF transsexuals and cisgender males, and the cisgender females; but the gynephilic transsexuals "displayed also singular features and differed from both control groups by having reduced thalamus and putamen volumes and elevated GM volumes in the right insular and inferior frontal cortex and an area covering the right angular gyrus".^[21]
The researchers concluded that:

Contrary to the primary hypothesis, no sex-atypical features with signs of 'feminization' were detected in the transsexual group ... The present study does not support the dogma that [male-to-female transsexuals] have atypical sex dimorphism in the brain but confirms the previously reported sex differences. The observed differences between MtF-TR and controls raise the question as to whether gender dysphoria may be associated with changes in multiple structures and involve a network (rather than a single nodal area).^[21]

Berglund et al. (2008) tested the response of gynephilic MtF transsexuals to two steroids hypothesized to be sex pheromones: the progestin-like 4,16-androstadien-3-one (AND) and the estrogen-like 1,3,5(10),16-tetraen-3-ol (EST). Despite the difference in sexual orientation, the MtFs' hypothalamic networks activated in response to the AND pheromone, like the androphilic female control groups. Both groups experienced amygdala activation in response to EST. Gynephilic male control groups experienced hypothalamic activation in response to EST. However, the MtF subjects also experienced limited hypothalamic activation to EST. The researchers concluded that in terms of pheromone activation, MtFs occupy an intermediate position with predominantly female features.^[22] The MtF transsexual subjects had not undergone any hormonal treatment at the time of the study, according to their own declaration beforehand, and confirmed by repeated tests of hormonal levels.^[22]
A 2016 review reported that gynephilic trans women differ from both cisgender male and female controls in non-dimorphic brain areas.^[2]
Gynephilic female-to-male transsexuals[edit]

Fewer studies have been performed on the brain structure of transgender men than on transgender women.^[2] A team of neuroscientists, led by Nawata in Japan, used a technique called single-photon emission computed tomography (SPECT) to compare the regional cerebral blood flow (rCBF) of 11 gynephilic FtM transsexuals with that of 9 androphilic cis females. Although the study did not include a sample of biological males so that a conclusion of "male shift" could be made, the study did reveal that the gynephilic FtM transsexuals showed significant decrease in blood flow in the left anterior cingulate cortex and a significant increase in the right insula, two brain regions known to respond during sexual arousal.^[23]
A 2016 review reported that the brain structure of early-onset gynephilic trans men generally corresponds to their assigned sex, but that they have their own phenotype with respect to cortical thickness, subcortical structures, and white matter microstructure, especially in the right hemisphere.^[2] Morphological increments observed in the brains of trans men might be due to the anabolic effects of testosterone.^[2]
Prenatal androgen exposure[edit]

Prenatal androgen exposure, the lack thereof, or poor sensitivity to prenatal androgens are commonly cited mechanisms to explain the above discoveries. To test this, studies have examined the differences between transsexuals and cisgender individuals in digit ratio (a generally accepted marker for prenatal androgen exposure). A meta-analysis concluded that the effect sizes for this association were small or nonexistent.^[24]
Congenital adrenal hyperplasia in persons with XX sex chromosomes results in what is considered to be excess exposure to prenatal androgens, resulting in masculinization of the genitalia and, typically, controversial prenatal hormone treatment^[25] and postnatal surgical interventions.^[26] Individuals with CAH are usually raised as girls and tend to have similar cognitive abilities to the typical female, including spatial ability, verbal ability, language lateralization, handedness and aggression. Research has shown that people with CAH and XX chromosomes will be more likely to be same sex attracted,^[25] and at least 5.2% of these individuals develop serious gender dysphoria.^[27]
In males with 5-alpha-reductase deficiency, conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone is disrupted, decreasing the masculinization of genitalia. Individuals with this condition are typically raised as females due to their feminine appearance at a young age. However, more than half of males with this condition raised as females become males later in their life. Scientists speculate that the definition of masculine characteristics during puberty and the increased social status afforded to men are two possible motivations for a female-to-male transition.^[27]

So whatever, I said my peace. Everyone can continue to pretend these things don't exist, that's it's just social conditioning or social contracts or some other weird thing people want to wish it away to. I don't care, but that's the actual science for anyone that's interested in a more objective truth about this.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

@nanashi

In many gay relationships one person is male and the other less male/more female like just like in heterosexuality, opposites attract and complement each other. That doesn't really go away just cuz it's different gender combination. There isn't one way to be gay anymore there is one way to be str8.

Except liking war movies, first-person shooter video games, guns, intense & serious political debates, logically explaining things nobody cares about, cowboy westerns, getting into drunken bar fights to impress women, working on your truck a lot, the tv show 'Breaking Bad' and The Walking Dead. ... That's being pretty straight male. =D lol.

[nanashi]

@nanashi

In many gay relationships one person is male and the other less male/more female like just like in heterosexuality, opposites attract and complement each other. That doesn't really go away just cuz it's different gender combination. There isn't one way to be gay anymore there is one way to be str8.

Except liking war movies, first-person shooter video games, guns, intense & serious political debates, logically explaining things nobody cares about, cowboy westerns, getting into drunken bar fights to impress women, working on your truck a lot, the tv show 'Breaking Bad' and The Walking Dead. ... That's being pretty straight male. =D lol.

I've noticed the balancing. I describe it by socionics...like the IEI man is drawn to the SLE based on how the SLE mind complements the IEI's own mind's skillsets, how they pay attention to the world. The Ni types are a bit like wizards who notice the heightened tangible awareness of Se types. We see that their perception is more of the physics of the world...the potential energy of bodies in motion...the gravity effect in the room on objects...the kinesthetics...without comparing them as people to animals...it's like when we can see a dog is processing a lot of other smells/sounds that we either can barely discern or aren't even aware of.


I think we probably agree but I'm not interested in using the terms 'feminine' when I mean Fe skills, just like I don't call math 'asian'. Ive seen that help the hate ideologies, so i try to strip the conflations away. Probably why I like socionics so much...my EII mom has a completely distinct way of viewing her ideal relationships and attraction than I do.

"Except liking war movies, first-person shooter video games, guns, intense & serious political debates, logically explaining things nobody cares about, cowboy westerns, getting into drunken bar fights to impress women, working on your truck a lot, the tv show 'Breaking Bad' and The Walking Dead. ... That's being pretty straight male. "
This describes me completely, and every other T who uses a lot of Se I know, regardless of their sex and regardless of their sexuality. It describes SO MANY GAY MEN. It doesn't describe hetero men who are F types that I know or hetero men who are Ti types who disvalue Se. It does describe hetero women I know. It does not actually equal 'hetero male'.


my problem with the walking dead was I only liked the zombie parts and found the humans' nonviolent stories profoundly boring. And I'm a practicing pacifist.my EII female friend LOVES the Walking Dead. I prefer first person shooters, even as a kid. Not because they were male. Because they were about a goal and used a lot of Te skills. I prefered debates, not because they were 'male' in some way. I absolutely enjoy working on my vehicles...because it involves skills I have and doesn't require me to have facility with Si but lets me play with a my semi-functioning Se. I identify with cowhand western movie characters and plots (not based on how they pee), yes, I like being seen as physically strong by someone I'm attracted to and would definitely consider it a plus if they saw me in a brawl if I handled myself well and was in the brawl for a good reason (fi valuing). I love shooting guns, and i've shot a machine gun, beretta (handgun), rifle, blah blah...as a kid. I don't shoot anymore. It doesn't matter that I love it. I also liked hydrocyanic acid as a kid. I don't let myself get into my joys as much if i'm surrounded by people offing themselves more when there are more of those joys. I have other joys. I'll live. Brawls kill less often, so I am not opposed to them as much as to guns in my life. same with some drugs.


And we both know I explain things all the time some people don't care about.


I know you're maybe less affected by ppl conflating gender and sex or just inured to it, and I'm not saying you're bad or something for using it. But you are wholly male and gay and IEI. I don't see you as not masculine. I see you IEI. And I don't get how IEI isn't male. That's like saying redheads aren't muscular.

Why'd the conflating even start? In part I think people just decided only some men were what they liked and called all the other men 'girl-like'. Instead of recognizing they themselves only were attracted to LSEs or something.
Using 'feminine' for all the IEI, EII, SEI, ESE, IEE, and EIE traits doesn't work because we get these hetero female SLE/LIE/LSE/SLI/LSI/ILE/LII and hetero IEI/ESI/EII/IEE/EIE/SEI/ESE male couples.