A hot take on transgender ideology (and gender ideology)

[AWellArmedCat]

@FreelancePoliceman @aciaradh

Here's what my monke brain understands:

-I have good friends who tell me they're trans
-I'm a sort of androgynous guy who, while not trans and fine with my gender, tends to oscillate between more masculine and more feminine modes of expression depending on my mood and those around me, so I feel like I can sort of imagine why you would want to be the opposite gender
-Those friends seem cool and I've never got the "crazy SJW" vibe from them that a lot of people seem to think trans people must have
-To pretty much everyone they look and act way more like the gender that they want to be than the gender they may have been given when they were born, and that's how most people treat them in day-to-day life
-At this point there's basically nothing left of their "original" gender, so why insist on treating them as though they still are?

I don't understand what the problem with them is supposed to be. They have jobs, treat the people around them well, and haven't ever hurt anyone - much less any children - to my knowledge

[FreelancePoliceman]

-I'm a sort of androgynous guy who, while not trans and fine with my gender, tends to oscillate between more masculine and more feminine modes of expression depending on my mood and those around me, so I feel like I can sort of imagine why you would want to be the opposite gender

I'm interested by what you said here. Just to be clear, my understanding is that you're saying you act sometimes in ways that are seen as stereotypically feminine and sometimes in ways that are seen as stereotypically masculine. What does that have to do with wanting to be seen as a girl?

[AWellArmedCat]

What does that have to do with wanting to be seen as a girl?

It doesn't really. I wasn't trying to say that I understand the experience of gender dysphoria, but rather that I personally don't feel a very strong sense of my gender nor any particular drive to act in ways that someone my gender may be expected to. All I meant by this was that if we imagine that there's a sliding gender dysphoria scale with "I very strongly identify with my assigned gender" on one end and "I very strongly identify with the opposite gender" on the other I feel somewhat in the middle or ambivalent. Because of that it's just as easy for me to imagine identifying strongly with one's assigned gender as it is for me to imagine identifying strongly with its opposite

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Sooo we go from 'it's just a fad' to 'eww they abuse kids.'

Well... statistically speaking- according to the Te/Ti data- cis Heterosexuals (especially cis heterosexual males) are the ones most likely to abuse children. I'm not trying to virtue signal- but the data is there lol.

And even if they did- it's actually still a dumb arguement. Breeder males are statistically more likely to abuse children- yet we still give them all the extra privileges and special rights in society. We don't objectively say it's not okay to be a cis straight guy. So not a very good argument. How can we claim we care about the kids like we say we do if breeder males get all these special perks in society yet they are the ones most likely to hurt a kid for real.

It's the tale as told as time. "right"-wing Republican straight people claim they are more moralistic and for family values and the childreeeeen - yet when the kids are born they want nothing to do with them and project the evil in their hearts onto the LGBT community. And you wonder why I don't like most straight people lololol.

[persimmonism]

Transgenderism is a social contagion much like how anorexia and bulimia were a couple decades ago. There's an unofficial term "rapid onset gender dysphoria". Most youth with gender dysphoria are struggling with other underlying issues, and there is often a general dis-ease with their self-identity. Then due to environmental factors (internet, social groups..) they fixate on the gender aspect of identity. It's hard not to when the trans community immediately affirms everyone with doubts on their gender.

I have no problem with transgender people. However, I am against the immediate affirmation and am dubious about the medicalization of the mental disorder. ESPECIALLY when the individual in question has not fully emotionally matured yet. In the UK they're going to require a 2-year delay before people identifying as trans can get surgery. that's good. hormones and surgery are irreversible. whereas the rate of people who desist after identifying as the other gender is very high.

I think everyone interested in the subject should listen to this podcast (specifically about gender dysphoria in boys).

Here are some points they touch. These people are legit and not just some random theorizers.

So many parents are blindsided when their child comes out as trans.
The counselors and therapists are partly to blame.
These boys are often bright, socially behind, and very online.
Angus noticed that a lot of these boys were playing particular RPG games and it gave them a false illusion of what the female aesthetic really was.
These very intelligent boys, who often have intelligent answers to things, are giving parents very strange and almost immature answers as to why they want to become a woman.
Predatory men online could be further exacerbating the problem.
We’re seeing a rocketing number of people who are saying they’re bisexual.
What benefits do these gender dysphoric boys get by joining a girl clique? (a pre-made identity)
Why are young women so obsessed with dressing up their new toy? (the trans boy being the toy)
So many families are just lost and don’t know what to do.
Want diversity and inclusion? You should see these groups. They’re diverse and they’re all worried about their child.
When you talk to de-transitioners, they all have a level of wisdom about who they are and what they want.
Did Angus see a connection with autism in his surveyed group?
Children are taking fewer and fewer risks in our environment. As a way to rebel, they’re taking risks on their bodies and their personal identity instead. (before it was clothing, hair color, tattoos etc. now it's gotten to be more extreme-)

What you should take away is that you should refrain from immediately affirming someone who tells you that they're questioning their identity. Of course, still be understanding and accepting of their feelings.

[Relina]

Some people seem to be anxious around the existence of trans people, the idea of gender being a social construct, or the idea that they can be convinced to go through the wrong puberty. This gender anxiety is due to people wanting to have a firm gender identity or unconscious sex. This does not mean a feminine/masculine gender role. This means, how the person expects their body to be, what hormones would be dominant in their system, their unconscious sex. Most people have this, although it can be quite difficult to notice. The people may believe that trans people existing might threaten their own unconscious sex. "If a man can decide he's a woman, why shouldn't I decide I'm a man for social benefits?" a woman might ask. The thing is, unconscious sex is NOT a choice. Virtually every woman, if she found out that she had gone through a testosterone-based puberty would feel as if her body does not match what she expects it to be. Vice versa for men going though an estrogen-based puberty. This can lead to disgust, despair, anxiety, depression, or what is commonly referred to as gender dysphoria.

You may see people encouraging gender-role atypical people to transition and have a reaction akin to "The trans community is enforcing gender roles!" Unfortunately, it's human nature to assume that most people experience the world as you do. Some people assume that everyone who is feminine wants to be a woman, which is untrue. This can be seen in places such as r/egg_irl, which understandably, causes this gender anxiety that was talked about. Not only is this harmful to gender-role atypical cisgender people, it is also harmful to gender-role atypical transgender people. Trans women can be butch, and trans men can be effeminate.

Some people can not understand unconscious sex and assume that it's related to gender roles. This again, is due to the false assumption that most people experience the world as you do. Some people may legitimately be equally as comfortable in a male body as a female body. And that's okay!

tl;dr gender identity is an innate phenomenon separate from gender roles and physical sex. wanting to be a gender makes you that gender, even if you're not trans.

* I kind of relayed a lot of these ideas from the subconscious sex and intrinsic inclination chapters of Julia Serano's Whipping Girl. Because my memory is somewhat limited, the ideas expressed in the book may be more clear than how I was able to express them.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Dunno man, I just heard another transgender person and it felt like they were pettily insulting cisgender gay males like myself which I don't get - it just makes people think you're really a gay guy that can't deal when you do that. They think that two male bodies clash too much even more than a lot of homophobic str8 ppl- and trust me darling, they don't clash for us at all. But like I said before, they are probably sick and tired of getting compared to gay men and ppl thinking they are gay guys , but this trans person themselves said they thought they were a gay guy at first lol. Actually this person was weird, it was like they wanted to say something petty and insulting but had to be PC instead and I wish they would just let it out of their system instead of act fake in a Te way, but oh well.

I support the trans community but I just can't personally relate to feeling like I was born in the wrong body or the wrong gender. I'm 110% all man baby lol. However, not being an asshole is supporting people even if u can't fully relate to them or completely understand them. I don't like hunting or fishing or flying in a plane and shooting thing downs like str8 males but when I tried dressing in woman's clothes & putting on make-up it wasn't for me at all, just felt so out of place and weird in the bad way. When pervy males ask me to put on feminine undergarments to give them boners, I nope right on outta there.

Compassion and empathy/"rights" is basically realizing not everything is about you - which Republicunts can't or won't do and they basically think that because this feels wrong for them it's wrong for everybody and we should all just be white and straight and blonde and cisgendered like on Fake News. Personally speaking though, I don't appreciate being bullied by typical str8 males just to also get bullied by a bunch of trans preppy Te people-pleasing bitches- so they could also be nicer even if they are the ones that are more objectively disadvantageous in a Te way compared to me. Just like I could be nicer to str8 women I guess even though Te likes them better than me and we're closer to getting a str8 female president than we are an [openly] gay male one. If the New World Order ppl knows how to promote women that aren't like Hillary lol Are the petty insults/digs based on Te jealousy either way? Str8 females said I was jealous of them before- but I'm not really jealous of them per se - but maybe how they got an easier time being treated compared to me in some situations I guess? I mean I never felt like anybody campily rolled out a red carpet for me as a gay guy while saying to the trans people 'this isn't for you' but I guess, a lot of them still feel that way. /shrug.

[theum nathair]

Dunno man, I just heard another transgender person and it felt like they were pettily insulting cisgender gay males like myself which I don't get - it just makes people think you're really a gay guy that can't deal when you do that.

You may be right. There's probably all sorts... some are even perverts, inevitably (transitioning into homosexuality sometimes seems fetishistic based on how people write about it in their internet blogs...). Likewise, some almost certainly were seduced by the counter-culture fashionability

Most people are not highly devious or violent, however. It seems gender just doesn't work that well as a top-down approach to social stratification. Group diversity has been repeatedly shown to have beneficial effects in many applications... for this reason if not from some more humane sentiment, all people should be respected regardless of identification/physical traits... I do understand wanting to be the opposite sex for purely physical reasons however, and have read about the practical aspects extensively. The cultural ban on any 'rhetoric' (even questions) construed as being against the trans movement (which has never existed for other oppressed groups imo) prevents there being a wealth of unbiased philosophical discourse, particularly in re 'is this a form of self-disrespect; can I recover and live normally if I take all of these steps' etc

[DEAD]

When people call themselves a damn nonbinary and they put in no effort and are literally female presenting the binary with a full face of makeup, and are called Sally or a straight fat, old man with a bald head called Bill... that's where I draw the line.

[Averroes]

I respect their identity but think they should accept that there are going to be limits to the extent that they'll be accepted as indistinguishable from cis women for the foreseeable future. I can understand wanting to look and act like a woman, but think it's unhealthy to obsess over being considered a bona fide woman and I'm just not smart enough to delve into the metaphysics of gender and convince myself that they're the same as the humans socialized as females that I grew up liking

I think there’s something about womanhood and manhood that runs deeper than just your physical appearance, mannerisms, interests/tastes, and hormonal profile at a given point in time. Anecdotally, a lot of trans women remind me of gay men in the way they write and express themselves sexually and present their “assets” in a porny, male gaze-centered way on dating apps, so I kind of disagree with the premise that they have feminine minds

[The Reality Denialist]

I don't really care but when the medical industry wants to make money and mutilate people permanently I have issues. It is sick that people do not understand that we are mortal and until we can actually change the program holistically then it is usually better to submit to your biology where you can not fix it and it does not threaten you.

This obsession on medicalization of life is sick. I have read estimates that say that over 600 boys could die annually due to circumcision in the US. Really, it is sick af. I take no drugs and I aim never to take them permanently. Leave your body alone and put put on dress if you want and mutilate yourself as an adult.

[Averroes]

If I had a deep burning desire to be an ethnic Korean and hated being black, a therapist would probably encourage me to accept myself instead of drastically modifying my appearance and spending my life desperately trying to be accepted by Koreans as one of their own

It’s a weak analogy but I feel like there’s a similar level of futility there

[Muira]

If I had a deep burning desire to be an ethnic Korean and hated being black, a therapist would probably encourage me to accept myself instead of drastically modifying my appearance and spending my life desperately trying to be accepted by Koreans as one of their own

It’s a weak analogy but I feel like there’s a similar level of futility there

Sums up everything just right. The body functions fine, but it's the mind that's fucked up or not aligned. Just trans people choose to change their body to align with their mind, even if it's just mimicry in my opinion. But again, if a guy were to voluntarily castrate themselves and get on estrogen, looking like a woman and acting like one, they would be treated like one. Which women are treated nicely usually, but also are more likely to be SA-ed, jumped, etc. So at that point, it would just be better to just have a fully transitioned transsexual person use their chosen bathroom, especially since my word isn't the law.

But again, is it really right for people to bully mentally ill people?

Probably not.

The difference between transracialism and transgendrism is that transgenderism is just mostly socially acceptable.