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Thread: A hot take on transgender ideology (and gender ideology)

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    Default A hot take on transgender ideology (and gender ideology)

    I think transgender ideology is a bit strange, tbh.

    Look at this link on "oversocialization": OVERSOCIALIZATION (Industrial Society and its Future) (xahlee.org)

    I think oversocialization is an idea that Ted Kaczynski came up with, and a very good idea at that. Transgender ideology is an example of oversocialization. I think gender is a convenient pattern that we have put way too much stock into. We took what should have been a practical concept, and did terrible intellectual gymnastics with it to the point of fucking it up. Gender has long been a concept that constricts the way we think and function and is quite frankly, bullshit. The mere existence of transgender people should show us quite clearly that our gender notions have been unsubstantiated and constricting bullshit, but we are slow at pulling ourselves out of this mire of our creation. Too slow.

    Even transgender individuals conform to conventional gender norms, just in an inverse way (hence, oversocialization). Their being genuine people stands to correct what we have been messing up for so long, but they end up further substantiating the crux of gender norms by calling themselves "trans-"gender as if some sort of deviant. See, this doesn't actually say gender norms are wrong, but that there is more to it than is initially evident, and thus history repeats itself with terrible intellectual gymnastics piled on top of terrible intellectual gymnastics. We keep complexifying and making significant this concept past a fruitful level and would do best to simplify and render it less significant. Stop giving gender in any form or manifestation such teeming definition and contrast if you don't want it to rupture.

    I am male, but I relate to a lot to feminine characteristics. I like flowers, women's clothing, pink, and sometimes display girly behavior among other things. In the past I have gotten very intense feelings of gender dysphoria and seriously thought I would have rather been born female. Yet none of that opposes my sense of masculinity, at least not in recent years, because I (with exceptions due to inevitable social conditioning) stopped seeing the world through a gendered lens. By this I mean I just simply don't notice anything in a gendered context; I don't recognize cis, trans, binary, nonbinary, etc.

    I am not oversocialized. Were I, I would be something other than cis for sure.



    Alright,
    Like I said, a hot take. Yet hopefully one that some found thought-provoking.





    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by flames View Post
    The amount of transphobia on this forum is disgusting.
    (edit: apparently flames did not direct this at me, but I will still keep my response here)

    Oh no, no that wasn’t the point.

    The point is that gender has been a terrible concept for a long time (hence, why transgender people exist/need to exist) but I see the direction in which we are moving (establishment of non-cis ideology) as adding to it rather than dismantling it.

    Gender ideology is an oversocialized concept, and so consequently is transgender ideology. The best solution is to subtract not add, is what I am trying to say.

    Please don’t misunderstand my point because I love the transgender people in my life very much. I merely think the are marching in the wrong direction for something that is truly valid, themselves.



    Quote Originally Posted by DeliMeat View Post
    Ok, this thread has had a lot of excitement, lol. When I posted this thread I was trying to illustrate a specific facet of gender ideologies, but I was still ignorant of some things involving the relationship between gender and biology. A lot of posts here have discussed this relationship and helped me learn some things that I was previously unaware of, so I thank you all for that. Yet still, I had intended to touch on the more social facets of gender which have been barely grazed over in this thread, so I want to clarify some things I had in mind when creating the thread.

    Look at this link on "oversocialization": OVERSOCIALIZATION (Industrial Society and its Future) (xahlee.org)

    Years ago I began experiencing body dysmorphia/gender dysphoria (I don't anymore). At the height of this dysphoric experience I would feel a phantom awareness of female genitalia. Thing is, this experience of mine was the result of social causes rather than biological ones. Growing up, I was surrounded by people who said men do men things and women do women things, so the social conditioning allowed no room for a grey area. There is no clear limit to how far we can stretch gender past a biological basis so these gender notions would extend past biology and onto completely arbitrary ground.

    A few examples of the ideology in my social sphere:
    Men cook outdoors with grills whereas women cook indoors and use ovens
    Men drive trucks whereas women drive anything but trucks
    Men like football and boxing whereas women like volleyball and tennis
    Men wear clothes for utility whereas women where clothes for fashion
    Men don't like pink or purple whereas women do
    Men are cool and collected whereas women are emotive and dramatic
    Men like action movies whereas women like romantic comedies

    I could go on and on and on with this...

    Based on this, if one is properly socialized, they are expected to adhere to these conventions that in truth stray far beyond the buddy between your legs or anything else biological. For people who are properly socialized yet may break the society's gender code, there are feelings of dysphoria if one notices they broke the rules. It is also important to emphasize that when men are expected to do all of their respective things without deviation and women are expected to do all of their respective things without deviation, it creates this sort of "all or nothing" mentality. So when somebody breaks the code they are likely to experience some jolting vacillation of identity, and the shock alone is often enough to make people feel marginalized or like some sort of Frankenstein's monster, or even make them think they have done something immoral.

    That identity shock and "all or nothing" mentality can consequently lead to someone not identifying with their sex anymore (either in the presence or absence of a biological reason to do so as well, it doesn't matter). For some people, as I experienced, this can lead to phantom limb syndrome. I would get phantom awareness of a vagina I never had, and the detail of this awareness would increase as I learned more about vaginal anatomy (note: I did not will this to happen, it was automatic). The fact that the sensation could change based on knowledge of the anatomy indicates, at least for me, that this was not caused by my biology, but by my psychological state at the time.

    The "gender jolt" can be subtle and short in duration, but if recurrent becomes a nagging itch. This can lead to someone wanting to end the torture and just scratch that itch by transitioning, either sexually or ideologically or both, and forget the painful grey areas ignored by social conventions. This is what I meant when I said transgender people merely conform to typical gender norms in an inverse way. I see much of the direction in which gender ideology is headed as an extension of the norms rather than remodeling or dismantling them.
    Last edited by DeliMeat; 02-13-2021 at 08:17 PM.

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    I like pussy, I have a dick, means I'm am male e_e .. to me its as simple as that. (biologically male). IF one is biologically male and capable of procreation, one is meant to be like that by nature. IF the operating system in one's brain or one's brain wiring does not fall in line with one's biological sex.. to me that just means deviancy which can be due to several reasons all of which imply certain levels of defectiveness.. and ends in one being disinclined to fulfill one's biological purpose in life: procreation with the opposite sex.

    Society seems to hold a lot of ideas and values which can be cast aside as most people and in general society seems really fucking dumb to me, therefore there is little to no reason to be pressured by what ppl in general think or feel as it only becomes relevant if one allows it to be. So what if one is a guy and likes flowers? Almost every fucking botanist who is a guy likes plants. So what if you like writing sappy petry? Plenty of male poets out there.

    This all comes down to ppl's inability to override their fear of rejection by the tribe and it gets better with age and experience. e_e I used to worry about what ppl thought or felt until I discovered most ppl are utter morons and society thinks and does a lot of really stupid bullshit. That solved the problem for me at least:

    Tribe dumb like rock, it better if Grug stick with what Grug think right.


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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    I like pussy, I have a dick, means I'm am male e_e .. to me its as simple as that. (biologically male). IF one is biologically male and capable of procreation, one is meant to be like that by nature. IF the operating system in one's brain or one's brain wiring does not fall in line with one's biological sex.. to me that just means deviancy which can be due to several reasons all of which imply certain levels of defectiveness.. and ends in one being disinclined to fulfill one's biological purpose in life: procreation with the opposite sex.

    Society seems to hold a lot of ideas and values which can be cast aside as most people and in general society seems really fucking dumb to me, therefore there is little to no reason to be pressured by what ppl in general think or feel as it only becomes relevant if one allows it to be. So what if one is a guy and likes flowers? Almost every fucking botanist who is a guy likes plants. So what if you like writing sappy petry? Plenty of male poets out there.

    This all comes down to ppl's inability to override their fear of rejection by the tribe and it gets better with age and experience. e_e I used to worry about what ppl thought or felt until I discovered most ppl are utter morons and society thinks and does a lot of really stupid bullshit. That solved the problem for me at least:

    Tribe dumb like rock, it better if Grug stick with what Grug think right.

    Well, Grug seems to get it I suppose. Then again, Grug doesn't seem to get much of anything...

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    Sometimes there’s talk of dysmorphia. I hardly am aware of the body parts I have most of the time, let alone those I don’t, so perhaps I’m particularly unsuited for understanding this, but I have a hard time believing that people can be biologically wired to feel awareness of body parts they never had. If this “glitch” can occur after conception, where are all the women who feel a phantom awareness of larger breasts? Or men having phantom awareness of a bigger dick? And if, say, a man said he felt like he should have a 12-foot-dick, would surgery really be the best way to address that?

    Anyway — the trans ideology is rooted in confused thinking and preys on distressed young people. I’m worried at how quickly it’s been growing.

    And I think it’s part of a larger trend of essentialism. People are reduced to discrete categories which uniform traits are assigned to, while individuals’ subjective experiences are devalued, even while “lived experience” is such an increasingly popular phrase to toss out. You can see it in how Americans approach race: a black man is like every other black man because of his skin color, regardless of any other differences. Obama and Harris are celebrated for being “black”, even though they’re richer than 99% of people, their families didn’t experience slavery or were the perpetrators of slavery, and actively harmed a lot of black people, and it’s assumed that they have somehow a similar experience as a black person from a ghetto. It’s similar with “gender” — a man feels this way; a woman feels that way; if you feel this way or that way you’re a man or woman; easy as that.
    Last edited by FreelancePoliceman; 02-08-2021 at 10:33 AM.

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    The amount of transphobia on this forum is disgusting.
    And I'm what you desire, like a siren in the night



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    it is true that identity politics confuses because while one is supposed to deconstruct all of these social constructs like race and gender, one's identity as a race, gender, etc. is held as all important if it is a marginalized identity. it's like setting the machine to "construct" and "deconstruct" at the same time. it leaves this feeling that one can't quite wrap their head around it all. when the mind can't make sense, then one is left with faith or no faith to settle the difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    it is true that identity politics confuses because while one is supposed to deconstruct all of these social constructs like race and gender, one's identity as a race, gender, etc. is held as all important if it is a marginalized identity. it's like setting the machine to "construct" and "deconstruct" at the same time. it leaves this feeling that one can't quite wrap their head around it all. when the mind can't make sense, then one is left with faith or no faith to settle the difference.

    Blind faith is, ....well...., blind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flames View Post
    The amount of transphobia on this forum is disgusting.
    Oh no, no that wasn’t the point.

    The point is that gender has been a terrible concept for a long time (hence, why transgender people exist/need to exist) but I see the direction in which we are moving (establishment of non-cis ideology) as adding to it rather than dismantling it.

    Gender ideology is an oversocialized concept, and so consequently is transgender ideology. The best solution is to subtract not add, is what I am trying to say.

    Please don’t misunderstand my point because I love the transgender people in my life very much. I merely think the are marching in the wrong direction for something that is truly valid, thenselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeliMeat View Post
    Oh no, no that wasn’t the point.

    The point is that gender has been a terrible concept for a long time (hence, why transgender people exist/need to exist) but I see the direction in which we are moving (establishment of non-cis ideology) as adding to it rather than dismantling it.

    Gender ideology is an oversocialized concept, and so consequently is transgender ideology. The best solution is to subtract not add, is what I am trying to say.

    Please don’t misunderstand my point because I love the transgender people in my life very much. I merely think the are marching in the wrong direction for something that is truly valid, thenselves.
    No, I wasn’t talking about you.
    And I'm what you desire, like a siren in the night



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    Quote Originally Posted by flames View Post
    No, I wasn’t talking about you.
    About who then
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    Quote Originally Posted by flames View Post
    No, I wasn’t talking about you.
    is it really transphobia if one isn't afraid of them tho?

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    is it really transphobia if one isn't afraid of them tho?
    Ok, you made me laugh. I still don’t like your opinion, but I’m not going to cancel you over it lol. Unless you’re, like, physically harming or bullying any transgender people but I don’t think you’re that type of person.
    And I'm what you desire, like a siren in the night



    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall
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    @DeliMeat I had some similarish ideas I posted HERE

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    The "genetics" argument against transsexuality is problematic to me.

    What happens if we discover that the biological origin of transsexuality is itself genetic? If we were to employ an appeal to nature—as anti-trans. activists do when they employ X/Y chromosomal differences to define gender—we would be forced to conclude that transsexuality, as a natural part of the human condition, is not an aberration, except in so far as society wants it to be. It would be one component of a much larger tree of human variability, and must play a role in any scheme that's used to classify human sex differences.

    If it happened because the mother ate something that poisoned her womb, then that's a thornier philosophical question.
    Last edited by xerxe; 02-09-2021 at 05:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    The "genetics" argument against transsexuality is problematic to me.

    What happens if we discover that the biological origin of transsexuality is itself genetic? If we were to employ an appeal to nature—as anti-trans. activists do when they employ X/Y chromosomal differences to define gender—we would be forced to conclude that transsexuality, as a natural part of the human condition, is not an aberration, except in so far as society wants it to be. It would be one component of a much larger tree of human variability, and must play a role in any scheme that's used to classify human sex differences.

    If it happened because the mother ate something that poisoned her womb, then that's a thornier philosophical question.
    It's not an issue if you separate sex from gender-feelings. In other words, sex is determined chromosomally by the sex chromosomes. How they feel about their biological sex is separate from that. Whether they feel that way because of some wiring in their brain, a genetic mutation not in the sex chromosomes, or some other reason doesn't change their biological sex. They can be separate.

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    lol @flames given the trashy and self-destructive ways I know a lot of cis straight people behave I don't think they really have any room to call other people 'defective.' Even though maybe objectively speaking it is a defect in ways but not too sure about that as they have also often gotten a lot of political and social power. I think it often has a pro-social benefit in the form of entertainment and sex work.

    It's also natural in the sense to me that people often aren't always strictly one thing over another but a hybrid version of both or a period of changing into another thing- like a metamorphosis.

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    it is true that identity politics confuses because while one is supposed to deconstruct all of these social constructs like race and gender, one's identity as a race, gender, etc. is held as all important if it is a marginalized identity.
    Yeah I think the media/society should stop this idea that any one group are some innocent persecuted angels even though there is still a problem of being bullied for X. They do this for women, gays, blacks, trans, "the working middle class" as this attempt to seem morally superior when they actually don't do anything to correct the issue as they need the other group to always be an eternal victim so they can be the 'Heroes' anyway. So nothing ever really gets changed and both sides don't come to any understanding or peaceful resolution. Reality is too complicated for one group to always be in a victimized status. Most people are a mixture of "perpetrator" and "victim." And if they push the issue too much it makes people think it's naturally wrong and part of satan's agenda anyway.

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    in my language there's no real distinction between gender and sex when it comes to these things, we have only one term to describe trans people, they're "transessuali" = transsexual. and that's it.

    i like this simplicity because sex and gender do obviously overlap and I find it complicates things further to distinguish between "what you ought to be" "what you feel" "what you really are" "what you wish you were" "the errors nature made" etc etc...

    transsexuality always existed, so much that in archaic times and in some places still today, transsexuals were considered sort of holy and their deviation was entitled with divine roles, in other cases it was condemned, but point is, it always existed. like hermaphrodites exist.

    the distinction between sex and gender comes into play because of this impossibility to ascertain whether a trans person is this or that, so that "I'm a man in the body of a biological woman" excuses both divides and tells people exactly what's in front of them. or maybe it's a way to create more understanding around this topic, by taking apart and labeling the single parts that constitute a sexual being, like we all are.

    with this, idk what i want to say, because the matter is not made any simpler by giving out 3 thousand terms or analyzing the single digits that make up the total part.

    what i really wonder about this all is : would we still have the need to identify as "something else" if all genders were truly equal and allowed to express themselves without condemnation? and i imagine the answer would probably be, no.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    what i really wonder about this all is : would we still have the need to identify as "something else" if all genders were truly equal and allowed to express themselves without condemnation? and i imagine the answer would probably be, no.
    Yeah, a lot of all of this has to do with stereotypes and expecting everyone to conform to those stereotypes imo like the OP was getting at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    It's not an issue if you separate sex from gender-feelings. In other words, sex is determined chromosomally by the sex chromosomes. How they feel about their biological sex is separate from that. Whether they feel that way because of some wiring in their brain, a genetic mutation not in the sex chromosomes, or some other reason doesn't change their biological sex. They can be separate.

    I suspect that what trans people experience is more than simply "a feeling".

    Perhaps some sort of fundamental misalignment* (with biological sex) in embodied awareness which intrinsically relies and is relied upon by the body in a mutually informing and connected whole.

    *Using the word misalignment is probably transphobic but w/e.
    Last edited by leckysupport; 02-10-2021 at 11:18 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by leckysupport View Post
    I suspect that what trans people experience is more than simply "a feeling".

    Perhaps some sort of fundamental misalignment* (with biological sex) in embodied awareness which is intrinsically relies and is relied upon by the body in a mutually informing and connected whole.

    *Using the word misalignment is probably transphobic but w/e.
    What if like the OP suggests, the link to my longer post in the JK thread, and what ooo suggests above is really the larger issue? What if a sex wasn't expected to be any certain way? Then being how they are, dressing however they want, acting like themselves wouldn't necessarily be a disconnect, right? Because right now, it's only accentuating stereotypes. You have people teaching kids that if they like "boy things" they're a boy, and if they like "girl things" they're a girl. I remember when I was a kid people would freak out if a boy played with dolls or something. Oh no, he's gay! It's still not ok apparently, but now it goes even farther, now he's not even a boy anymore. That's how far this is being pushed, and that's really harmful imo. Just let them be who they are, you know?

    Regarding body dysmorphia, maybe that would be lessened, or maybe they'd still have it, but people have dysmorphia in ways that aren't associated with sex also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    What if like the OP suggests, the link to my longer post in the JK thread, and what ooo suggests above is really the larger issue? What if a sex wasn't expected to be any certain way? Then being how they are, dressing however they want, acting like themselves wouldn't necessarily be a disconnect, right? Because right now, it's only accentuating stereotypes. You have people teaching kids that if they like "boy things" they're a boy, and if they like "girl things" they're a girl. I remember when I was a kid people would freak out if a boy played with dolls or something. Oh no, he's gay! It's still not ok apparently, but now it goes even farther, now he's not even a boy anymore. That's how far this is being pushed, and that's really harmful imo. Just let them be who they are, you know?

    Regarding body dysmorphia, maybe that would be lessened, or maybe they'd still have it, but people have dysmorphia in ways that aren't associated with sex also.
    Btw I agree with you almost entirely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xerxe View Post
    If it happened because the mother ate something that poisoned her womb, then that's a thornier philosophical question.
    There's also polyfluoroalkyls that break off from plastics accumulating in the biosphere due to human negligence. They have both negative endocrine and neurological effects. This is also why the rate of mental disorders is skyrocketing imo.

    I hate when people strawman toxicology as if you think there's some malicious intelligence responsible - no, actually, we invent stupid devices to fulfill temporary needs without grasping their long-term side effects, and they screw us. Most problems with the world are the result of accidents.

    If there's a possible physical cause for a problem and also a possible social one, I say we should always Occam to the physical explanation first; they're usually more direct than social causes, which are slower and more ethereal.


    I think toxicology is the more charitable answer than genetics, though. If we find a cause to be genetic, there's always going to be that group who argues that this trait's constant presence in the gene pool is a justification for constantly culling it off, lest its numbers balloon and hurt human genetic health; or, if a trait is infertile, that they need to be euthanized for our social health.
    The problem with this is that even though a lot of us would consider this stance "inhumane" and dread its implementation, on a grander sociological scale, it's a "strong" stance in that it makes cultures more efficient, so societies that do this are prone to outcompete those that don't.
    This makes it a hard position to argue against because it is the more rational stance - if you disagree with it, then you need an ulterior counterargument to defeat it; in this case, an alternate, temporary cause like toxicology.
    Last edited by Grendel; 02-09-2021 at 05:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    lol @flames given the trashy and self-destructive ways I know a lot of cis straight people behave I don't think they really have any room to call other people 'defective.' Even though maybe objectively speaking it is a defect in ways but not too sure about that as they have also often gotten a lot of political and social power. I think it often has a pro-social benefit in the form of entertainment and sex work.

    It's also natural in the sense to me that people often aren't always strictly one thing over another but a hybrid version of both or a period of changing into another thing- like a metamorphosis.
    I’m happy you can understand where I’m coming from and cut me some slack here, even though some other people think I’m being some cookie cutter Fi police bitch, and you have told me in a previous post of yours that you have a desire to leave this place because of the increasing amount of politically corrective SJW Nazism polluting the waters. Maybe I’m even a living example of your point that people aren’t black and white and can be a hybrid of two extremes. I guess I could be somewhere between vulgar immoral terrorist and elitist SJW prude. Nah, I wouldn’t even place myself on the spectrum. I spent most of my life calling myself a Democrat, because I was made to believe that you are either a Republican or a Democrat and whichever of the two was your opposing party is your evil inverse that you are nothing like and meant to eradicate if possible.... In reality, I don’t think they are even opposites of a spectrum - they do a lot of the same shit but have superficially conflicting forms of propaganda to make it to the top. I’m actually a Socialist that does not like or want to associate with either of the political alignments, or promote the continued existence of either mob mentalities or a system that functions solely on the two party system that was never intended to give the common people any true form of power.

    Some of the more toxic cultural norms shared by cis straight people aren’t inherently incorrect just because the underdogs say so, and we must go along with it because the rebellion is always the right side in the face of the oppressive Empire... but a good amount of what we’re raised to think is “normal” without questioning from the majority cis straight white patriarchy (feel free to add in whatever buzzwords I missed ) is simply designed to trample on the minorities that threaten that majority. Nowadays, the Internet and modern technology give us the ability to discover millions of other people that aren’t society’s standards and those people have been able to find unity in a way they never could have before we had this junk. When so many people are outcasts in the exact same fashion (for the same reason) they begin to realize they are supposed to be that way and they are just as normal as the “regular” people that outnumber them and control us. And the normies feel threatened by this and want to maintain the status quo they created. So, homophobic people, for example, will joke that they are not because they’re not scared of some fags - but they really are scared of the idea that they will outnumber them one day if we accept their existence as another kind of normal.

    I’m not saying Nazis and Jews are really supposed to coexist in harmony and they’re both right in what they believe, but things that run deeper... like things we are born as that we can’t change... I think should coexist with equality, like white vs black, straight vs gay... Just because one thing is more abundant than the other doesn’t mean they’re not all normal ways of being human. It’s not something we should kill each other over and I don’t think I’m unreasonable in suggesting that. If my wish for humanity to get on the same page regarding that, and my rare displays of shaming things others say or do that defies that as a end goal for our species makes me an “SJW”, so be it. I’d rather be harshly silenced for apparently being some delusional special snowflake hellbent on brainwashing the masses than normalize us turning against each other when we should be focusing on better things we can do until we go extinct and run out of time to do it.

    I don’t think I’m better than people who don’t have the same vision because their opposing visions exist for a reason, too. We evolved to instinctively react these ways in our heads so we can choose the best option for our survival. Unity and individualized tribalism both play an important role in our history. Nature gave us these options because the harsh truth is that one way of living might not succeed in our survival - there has to be several unconscious instincts to act off so that something will work and inevitably one will prove to be correct over the rest. Maybe I’m wrong and we’re destined to divide ourselves as much as we can and eliminate the weaker tribes until the chosen group establish their supreme dominance and therefore secure the infinite existence of human kind - minorities in this scenario exist only to cause endless war until we wipe each other out off the face of the planet altogether when they simply could have submitted to the majority normies until they no longer existed in the first place. But I tend to think this is the philosophy behind genocides, race wars, cultural erasure, eternal conflict and other things most people with common sense nowadays deem evil.

    The other option is for us to keep embracing co existence of every distinct group of people no matter how different until we achieve peace and therefore secure our infinite survival because we will no longer needlessly kill each other to extinction and instead focus on even greater means of survival that we’ve been pushing off in favor of our inability to support each other’s existence. Yes, unfortunately this route means that what is considered a majority type of people today will eventually become a minority and that feels scary to a lot of us, but nature is only going to allow what differing trait among us becomes the majority that has the most potential for success. So, yeah, white people will be a minority one day as we keep mixing with other races at a growing rate, but skin color won’t make or break our future. Unfortunately, this also means being homosexual will always be the minority to heterosexuality, because only one orientation provides procreation. BUT both will keep growing bigger as our population peaks so the acceptance of the “unnatural” disposition will get bigger as well and not threaten the majority in the process - homosexuality has always been a naturally occurring thing in numerous animals on earth besides us and was never the reason any of them went extinct.

    Alright, I’ve done enough waxing philosophical for one day.
    Last edited by flames; 02-09-2021 at 08:25 PM.
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    @flames

    Nah you were just voicing your concerns and I mostly agree with you. <3 You weren't trying to overly police what ppl say or what to think or how to behave or anything so there was nothing at all with voicing ur opinion. Don't worry I love you. =D

    I agree there is too much trans bullying- I mean the trans people often aren't nice about it and have been rude/bullied others themselves but I think when you've been treated like crap a lot of your life you get tired of being nice and start demanding and taking respect rather than being all polite about it so I don't really blame them for being this way.... but it's also true that objectively speaking, most people are just going to be kind of straight and cisgendered and normal ((and boring and value Fi haha)) and that's the way society just is and so society is kind of naturally shaped to the default Basic Bitch whether we like it or not. So often times we are more forced to be like them instead of them being more like us. So I don't like the equal rights thing often because it just really turns into a thing where I am heteronormatized more than they are homo-tized. And it's kinda dumb and too pc because obviously, we're not all equal. BUT we should still be equal under the law cuz the law is supposed to be blind and about balanncing the scales.

    Actually I had a talk with this with my mom this morning and it wasn't about gays/trans specifically but about another minority group and basically it came down to my mom saying the minority should work extra harder to be accepted by the majority because they are the minority and you have to appeal to the majority as it's much safer that way but I said that goes both ways though and said the majority should also listen to the minority. As almost everybody has minority traits they need acceptance from. I do think it goes both ways, I mean if you truly want a peaceful resolution & not wish to simply be the one that holds the whip. I shouldn't be forced to always bend over backwards for a breeder ((I used the term breeder affectionately there! Mostly.. hehe)) if they aren't gonna do the same for me sometimes that isn't fair or right. We're not all 'equal' as in we're not all the same but I think we should all be considered equal under the law- as the law is supposed to be the equalizing force. Diversity is what I want, not Sameness.

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    @squark

    I admit I'm a bit sheltered but I don't know any straight guys that played with dolls/barbies much as a kid. I'm sure there's lots of them though that if they tried to 'come out' about it then everybody would just start thinking they were gay hence the stereotypes become even firmer. So why even do it if it's just gonna raise annoying questions and bring up stereotypes.

    I played with barbies as a kid but not really in a 'polite way' - I made them have brutal fight scenes with each other lol so it was kinda like gay/str8 mixed I guess.

    I fit the stereotype of gay in that I am really non athletic lol @ my 1D Se but I know so many gays who are very good at sports.

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    So uhh...as somebody that struggled with gender for awhile and finally came to the conclusion that I'm some kind of agender, there does seem to be a lot of interesting evidence for gender being a structural part of the brain. For example, I found out that people that relate with feeling like they are probably on some kind of autistic spectrum, are much more often to identify the way I do, where they feel like they are both genders or neither or in between.

    There's also studies done by the Chinese that found MTF transgenders have brain scans that closely match genetic females and not genetic males (before they take hormones, that is). And certain things, like left-handedness, increases your probably for being gay, bisexual, transgender, cross-dresser, having fetishes, things like that, which definitely comes from the brain. There's also a condition, known as AIS, where a genetic male will not react to the testosterone in their body and will develop and look like and feel like and enjoy sex like a female with men. They may not even know they are XY until they hit puberty and have a medical problem and then find testicles where their ovaries should be. There's also something that goes on with mothers where if they already had a son, each son born after has a higher chance of being gay and I think that percentage goes up with each birth - https://www.pnas.org/content/115/2/234. It's all pretty interesting.

    Conversely, there's a lot of hate and backlash in Western society, where for whatever reasons, people want to pretend gender is just a subjective thing created by society and look to justify that, rather than do a more scientific look in the brain. Now that's not to say there isn't some truth to that either, but the real truth has got to be somewhere in the middle somewhere. So it seems a bit naive for Western people to trivial gender as enforced by society or something like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    So uhh...as somebody that struggled with gender for awhile and finally came to the conclusion that I'm some kind of agender, there does seem to be a lot of interesting evidence for gender being a structural part of the brain. For example, I found out that people that relate with feeling like they are probably on some kind of autistic spectrum, are much more often to identify the way I do, where they feel like they are both genders or neither or in between.

    There's also studies done by the Chinese that found MTF transgenders have brain scans that closely match genetic females and not genetic males (before they take hormones, that is). And certain things, like left-handedness, increases your probably for being gay, bisexual, transgender, cross-dresser, having fetishes, things like that, which definitely comes from the brain. There's also a condition, known as AIS, where a genetic male will not react to the testosterone in their body and will develop and look like and feel like and enjoy sex like a female with men. They may not even know they are XY until they hit puberty and have a medical problem and then find testicles where their ovaries should be. There's also something that goes on with mothers where if they already had a son, each son born after has a higher chance of being gay and I think that percentage goes up with each birth - https://www.pnas.org/content/115/2/234. It's all pretty interesting.

    Conversely, there's a lot of hate and backlash in Western society, where for whatever reasons, people want to pretend gender is just a subjective thing created by society and look to justify that, rather than do a more scientific look in the brain. Now that's not to say there isn't some truth to that either, but the real truth has got to be somewhere in the middle somewhere. So it seems a bit naive for Western people to trivial gender as enforced by society or something like that.
    hmm, yeah it would make sense that there is a biological cause for how they feel / think.

    I had a bisexual gf in college and she had a lot of non normie friends / they felt alienated by normal society for being different. Its through her and interacting with them that I discovered that I can't override my standard normie vanilla heterosexual nature. Its hardwired into me. e_e I felt very out of place and weirded out being with her tbh.. and gradually came to realize I just didn't belong because I was like most ppl :/

    I'm 100% convinced she can't help being herself, curiously she had other oddities like almost dying at birth and inability to smell things, used to nervously always ask me to check if she smells bad, or if food smells good and so on. Told me she can't sense any smells.

  29. #29
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    Take note. It’s the Fe egos that perpetuate cancel culture if you don’t share the same views as they do.

    There is no “theory” behind gender. You’re either a man or a woman, girl or boy, masculine or feminine. The parameters for defining what belongs in what category could change due to different cultures and time periods, but much of it is tied to how gender is saddled as the social satellite of biology- male or female.

    You can say you’re born male but you identify as a feminine gender, but just because that’s what you identify as, doesn’t change the fact that you were still born physically male and people are naturally going to have a hard time accepting you as a “she” if you exhibit physical markers that you’re actually a “he.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by flames View Post
    Ok, you made me laugh. I still don’t like your opinion, but I’m not going to cancel you over it lol. Unless you’re, like, physically harming or bullying any transgender people but I don’t think you’re that type of person.
    My argument basically revolves around that fact that people like me who are heterosexual & cisgender can't help being like this and much like I don't expect a gay man to be attracted to females, you guys shouldn't expect me to feel attracted to biological men. When I say that men are disgusting I mean it. I experience physical revulsion and disgust if I have to interact with another guy sexually and its off-putting seeing men interact sexually. This isn't something I can control or overcome. 4DSi-DisgustMicroexpression.JPG .

    I tried explaining this to my bisexual gf at the time as well, e_e but for all her NF talk of empathy & idealism, she basically found it bizarre and hard to understand why most other ppl don't find both sexes appealing, which is understandable, because it isn't something she experiences.

    I think asking me to be tolerant is ok, constantly pushing this stuff in my face however isn't, but that's what happens nowadays.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    IF the operating system in one's brain or one's brain wiring does not fall in line with one's biological sex.. to me that just means deviancy which can be due to several reasons all of which imply certain levels of defectiveness.. and ends in one being disinclined to fulfill one's biological purpose in life: procreation with the opposite sex.

    completely on it's own and separate from any discussion on human gender constructs, we need, as a socieyt, to look at this anthropomorphizing we do with evolution. it reminds me of the ancient peoples making a deity of the sun our rock happens to circle and acting like the star had feelings.

    like....'evolution isn't a process but has feelings and wants grandbabies very seriously.'
    Last edited by nanashi; 02-10-2021 at 09:08 AM.
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    medically, biological sex is a spectrum, not a dichotomy.


    you start out a heap of genes as the little zygote you were from your parents' gametes, and your zygote has developmental processes, and those are based off the interaction of the environment with the directions assembling you. Sometimes there was an unusual pattern in blueprint, and instead of having your clitoris develop the eight and change inches it would and be inside your body and human growth chamber ability growing, and the feed-the-tiny-offspring's-human-brain milk sacs growing when you're almost an adult, the directions are distinct enough that you have in the blueprint info SOME of these characteristics develop and not others. Or perhaps the directs are not distinct but a process was interrupted in another way. Well, if you're not going to spend your energy on constructing a human growth chamber womb, you might as well get taller, etc. People can end up being born what is called intersex on the sex spectrum. It's a very interesting place to be. You're not ONLY female and not ONLY a male; in a way, you're medically both at once. And people might try to convince you you're neither and should change your body or your behavior in order to pretend you're only one, and they might communicate that only then would you be worthy of love or human kinship.


    humans have stupid ideas sometimes


    intersex is so common that if you were to think of it this way, it would be as common: every person in the world with redhair, there are that many people in the world who are intersex.


    we get this idea that we're really, really different from each other, but that's just not the case. There are, for instance, people of any sex who have more in come with another person who doesn't share their sex but shares every other facet of all their other characteristics, same musical taste, same relationships with past exes, same curly golden blonde hair and brown skin, same dimples when they grin, same eyeglasses prescription, etc. And those two have more in common with each other than either does with people who happen to have the same sex group they do.


    one person has the capacity to move along the spectrum of sexual characteristics, which is why as a young boy you can have breast tissue or as a woman you can stare at your chin and be surprised it's growing a single beard hair. Men have nipples. Women have a variety of adam's apple sizes. You can have chromosomes for female sexual traits that don't compile. Same for having male sex directions and them not compiling. Men die of cancer of the breast. the clitoris and penis are analogous structures, started out the same and barely differ. one hangs outside the body.


    intersex people can still have arousal. i think, given that, humans of all sexes can stop terrifying ourselves that the water's gonna make us less male or the menopause will make us less female and that either of those things will mean we won't want sex and no one will want sex with us. There are people in their seventies still getting it on. Why do ppl spend so much time scarying themselves over things about their sex and thinking they're a different species physically from other people? you're not.
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    Conversely, there's a lot of hate and backlash in Western society, where for whatever reasons, people want to pretend gender is just a subjective thing created by society and look to justify that, rather than do a more scientific look in the brain.
    Yeah! That was such a good point, thank you. I mean - it's pretty funny and annoying how so many people think GLBT are part of the Illuminati's Agenda when the Illuminati have hated my guts my entire life as I've always exposed them. They really are bigoted and refuse to confront their prejudices and I don't throw that phrase around lightly everytime there is a small misunderstanding or with normal people but it happens consistently enough where it's problem.

    Yes, we are just born that way scientifically it's not some conspiracy theory to get you to french kiss Reptile Demons. Some breeders are really stupid sometimes. xD

  34. #34

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    also, it makes sense that someone's brain scans differ from other peoples' based even ONLY on their behaviors---because you're literally rewriting your brain AS YOU READ THIS by all your choices.

    Remember hearing how eyewitnesses remember about remembering about the situation they observed rather than remember the actual incident completely?

    This is a great thing....it's how we can manage trauma...it's how we can learn...it's how we grow our relationships and rethink our ideologies.

    People tried to tie the validity of being lbgtqia+ to whether someone's brainscan showed something distinct....there are many problems with that, not least of all that they can start targetting and harassing 'Kevin who says he's gay but whose brain is the same on scans as his brothers'. Then his well-meaning but religious parents, looking at the unproven supposition that ONLY the people with brains that look a certain way are REALLY gay, send Kevin to 'you're not gay, buddy' reprogramming camp and refuse to allow him to date males and disown him when he does as an adult because they think it's enabling his delusions.










    "Can You Tell Which Brains Are Male? Neither Can These Scientists

    Scientists who tried very hard to find distinct differences between male and female brains say they can’t do it.
    The volumes (green = large, yellow = small) of brain regions in 42 adults, showing the overlap between the forms that brains of females and brains of males can take.

    The volumes (green = large, yellow = small) of brain regions in 42 adults, showing the overlap between the forms that brains of females and brains of males can take. Image courtesy of Zohar Berman and Daphna Joel. / Tel Aviv University
    Nov. 30, 2015, 8:59 PM PST / Updated Nov. 30, 2015, 9:25 PM PST
    By Maggie Fox
    Scientists who tried very hard to find differences between male and female brains said they couldn’t do it — not with brain scans and not even by asking seemingly obvious questions such as whether someone likes boxing or worries about his or her mother.

    They couldn’t find any single pattern that distinguishes between a male brain and a female brain, and say only a very small percentage of people fall under clear all-male or all female brain patterns.

    “Our study demonstrates that although there are sex/gender differences in brain structure, brains do not fall into two classes, one typical of males and the other typical of females, nor are they aligned along a ‘male brain–female brain’ continuum,” Daphna Joel of Tel Aviv University and colleagues wrote.

    "Brains do not fall into two classes, one typical of males and the other typical of females."

    In fact, they found, most people are somewhere between clichéd ideas of male and female when it comes to brains, they said.

    Joel’s team looked at magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scans of the brains of more than 1,400 people of all ages from around the world, including Americans, Chinese, Germans and Australians.

    They did find some regions of the brain that tended to indicate sex differences. But when they considered these regions together across all their brain scans, the picture just got muddy, they reported in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

    Anywhere between 23 percent and 53 percent of the MRIs had at least one region with a “male-end” score and one region with a “female-end” score, they found. And at the most, 8 percent of the brain scans showed someone whose brain regions all scored “male” or “female.”

    "There are very few individuals who are consistently at the ‘female-end’ or at the ‘male-end’."

    “Our study demonstrates that, although there are sex/gender differences in the brain, human brains do not belong to one of two distinct categories: male brain/female brain,” they wrote.

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    Other researchers have found some of the seemingly clear differences between male and female brains may be cultural rather than biological -- spatial sense, for instance.

    Just to be really certain, they looked at a study of 157 women and 106 men done at a large Midwestern university that was designed to tease out sex differences in thinking. It included subjects such a gambling, housework, playing golf, watching porn or cosmetics that could be considered about as stereotypical as possible when it comes to gender differences.

    Even there, they couldn’t find a consistent pattern that predicted whether someone was male or female.

    “In other words, even when considering highly stereotypical gender behaviors, there are very few individuals who are consistently at the ‘female-end’ or at the ‘male-end’, but there are many individuals who have both ‘female-end’ and ‘male-end’ characteristics,” they wrote."" https://www.nbcnews.com/better/welln...-these-n471751




    When it comes to whether someone's REALLY anything, believe people know themselves better than you do because it's incredibly unreasonable to believe otherwise in virtually all cases.Actively challenge disequity or bullying of or inconsiderate digging at ppl who are lbgtqia+ about their status. So what if Todd realises he's gay at a stage in his life that you are not used to people realizing that at? It's Todd's path. Some people don't really get into exploring their sexuality until they're older.


    But we can't cling to brainscans as some proof of someone not being stereotypically male enough to be heterosexual and thus being gay. That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.
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    @nanashi

    In many gay relationships one person is male and the other less male/more female like just like in heterosexuality, opposites attract and complement each other. That doesn't really go away just cuz it's different gender combination. There isn't one way to be gay anymore there is one way to be str8.

    Except liking war movies, first-person shooter video games, guns, intense & serious political debates, logically explaining things nobody cares about, cowboy westerns, getting into drunken bar fights to impress women, working on your truck a lot, the tv show 'Breaking Bad' and The Walking Dead. ... That's being pretty straight male. =D lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    @nanashi

    In many gay relationships one person is male and the other less male/more female like just like in heterosexuality, opposites attract and complement each other. That doesn't really go away just cuz it's different gender combination. There isn't one way to be gay anymore there is one way to be str8.

    Except liking war movies, first-person shooter video games, guns, intense & serious political debates, logically explaining things nobody cares about, cowboy westerns, getting into drunken bar fights to impress women, working on your truck a lot, the tv show 'Breaking Bad' and The Walking Dead. ... That's being pretty straight male. =D lol.
    I've noticed the balancing. I describe it by socionics...like the IEI man is drawn to the SLE based on how the SLE mind complements the IEI's own mind's skillsets, how they pay attention to the world. The Ni types are a bit like wizards who notice the heightened tangible awareness of Se types. We see that their perception is more of the physics of the world...the potential energy of bodies in motion...the gravity effect in the room on objects...the kinesthetics...without comparing them as people to animals...it's like when we can see a dog is processing a lot of other smells/sounds that we either can barely discern or aren't even aware of.


    I think we probably agree but I'm not interested in using the terms 'feminine' when I mean Fe skills, just like I don't call math 'asian'. Ive seen that help the hate ideologies, so i try to strip the conflations away. Probably why I like socionics so much...my EII mom has a completely distinct way of viewing her ideal relationships and attraction than I do.

    "Except liking war movies, first-person shooter video games, guns, intense & serious political debates, logically explaining things nobody cares about, cowboy westerns, getting into drunken bar fights to impress women, working on your truck a lot, the tv show 'Breaking Bad' and The Walking Dead. ... That's being pretty straight male. "
    This describes me completely, and every other T who uses a lot of Se I know, regardless of their sex and regardless of their sexuality. It describes SO MANY GAY MEN. It doesn't describe hetero men who are F types that I know or hetero men who are Ti types who disvalue Se. It does describe hetero women I know. It does not actually equal 'hetero male'.


    my problem with the walking dead was I only liked the zombie parts and found the humans' nonviolent stories profoundly boring. And I'm a practicing pacifist.my EII female friend LOVES the Walking Dead. I prefer first person shooters, even as a kid. Not because they were male. Because they were about a goal and used a lot of Te skills. I prefered debates, not because they were 'male' in some way. I absolutely enjoy working on my vehicles...because it involves skills I have and doesn't require me to have facility with Si but lets me play with a my semi-functioning Se. I identify with cowhand western movie characters and plots (not based on how they pee), yes, I like being seen as physically strong by someone I'm attracted to and would definitely consider it a plus if they saw me in a brawl if I handled myself well and was in the brawl for a good reason (fi valuing). I love shooting guns, and i've shot a machine gun, beretta (handgun), rifle, blah blah...as a kid. I don't shoot anymore. It doesn't matter that I love it. I also liked hydrocyanic acid as a kid. I don't let myself get into my joys as much if i'm surrounded by people offing themselves more when there are more of those joys. I have other joys. I'll live. Brawls kill less often, so I am not opposed to them as much as to guns in my life. same with some drugs.


    And we both know I explain things all the time some people don't care about.


    I know you're maybe less affected by ppl conflating gender and sex or just inured to it, and I'm not saying you're bad or something for using it. But you are wholly male and gay and IEI. I don't see you as not masculine. I see you IEI. And I don't get how IEI isn't male. That's like saying redheads aren't muscular.

    Why'd the conflating even start? In part I think people just decided only some men were what they liked and called all the other men 'girl-like'. Instead of recognizing they themselves only were attracted to LSEs or something.
    Using 'feminine' for all the IEI, EII, SEI, ESE, IEE, and EIE traits doesn't work because we get these hetero female SLE/LIE/LSE/SLI/LSI/ILE/LII and hetero IEI/ESI/EII/IEE/EIE/SEI/ESE male couples.
    Last edited by nanashi; 02-10-2021 at 06:40 PM.
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    I don't really mind Fe being called 'Feminine', although I'm sure when some people use it they are trying to use it as an insult. It is feminine in the sense it's about group feeling & personal feelings (which can be Fi but is also a Fe thing) rather than external Te data. Which by it's very nature is the opposite of Fe. I mean Te is very 'straight man like' compared to Fe- that's objective enough. The definition isn't really perfect in a Te/Fi sense but I understand what people mean when they say that lol.

    I just laugh at somebody trying to bully me for my feminine traits. I feel more bad for them more than anything that their view of how male/female like is so limited and rigid. Are you really saying over 50% of the human population is a weakness? Calling me 'feminine' like it's some bad thing, bitch please. xD It's just beyond moronic really. I can't even get offended by it any more- I guess all the shit I put up with it over the years has made me really tough to it. Although I still feel very male and not trans. Obviously if they want a more manlier man that fits their view of how a man should be like, they can go to the truck stop and get one or whatever. No skin off my back!

    Yeah those things I would say are more high dimensional Te and Se? Stereotypes are based on truth anyway. They are true more often than not that's why they are stereotypes. Getting offended at stereotypes really isn't the answer ime- it's how we laugh and find the common Fe ground of things for me. Often it's about some people trying to provoke things but not necessarily in a malicious way.

    A very, very Fe song but lololol:


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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    @squark

    I admit I'm a bit sheltered but I don't know any straight guys that played with dolls/barbies much as a kid. I'm sure there's lots of them though that if they tried to 'come out' about it then everybody would just start thinking they were gay hence the stereotypes become even firmer. So why even do it if it's just gonna raise annoying questions and bring up stereotypes.

    I played with barbies as a kid but not really in a 'polite way' - I made them have brutal fight scenes with each other lol so it was kinda like gay/str8 mixed I guess.

    I fit the stereotype of gay in that I am really non athletic lol @ my 1D Se but I know so many gays who are very good at sports.

    I do know hetero feeler guys who for example took their T sister's Barbies and in an non sexual way changed their clothes and played out scenarios with them like putting them in rollerblades, etc ; teared up in middle school that they wanted to babysit but no adults would ask them because they were a guy even though they were great with kids.


    I've worked with a thousand kids, and I have seen dudes that were allowed to be their personality and their sex and their sexuality and were doing human things like cuddling babies and working in childcare and doing nurturing things. I've seen women and girls that were allowed to be their personality and their sex and their sexuality and were doing human things like working on their vehicles and other peoples' vehicles and offering their male colleagues at work the hex wrench they carry with them so the young guy could adjust his bike seat, get in physical fights (assault) instead of using their words, love debates and engage in them when other people wandered off.

    I've also seen the opposite...where people are behaviorally conditioned to NOT act like they have either their personality, sex, or sexuality or a combination of them. Those people can act out caricatures of the gender roles like they're Stepford husbands/wives.

    I've seen little boys who love wearing nail polish but aren't seeing themselves as by sex a female and are not thinking they have to give up playing with a baby doll or liking finger nail polish if they want to keep having the body they have or the personality they have.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    I don't really mind Fe being called 'Feminine', although I'm sure when some people use it they are trying to use it as an insult. It is feminine in the sense it's about group feeling & personal feelings (which can be Fi but is also a Fe thing) rather than external Te data.

    what is clitoral about group feeling?

    I mean we've all seen Fe polr hetero women and ESE men running sports shows and keeping up the camaraderie. .

    We've seen personal feelings of Bob Ross painting us into some meditative state.

    We've seen Te scientists who happen to be hetero women.

    Nothing about that Fe video that says womanish.It screams Beta NF sexuality regardless of what she's got in her pants. I could definitely see any Beta NF man HETERO or GAY jump into the same acting/singing role if she had a sick day...and he'd get it done with the exact same vibe with no problem.

    Now imagine a Thinker woman trying to pull that off. Regardless of her sexuality and how 'hot' her body was, a thinker woman would NOT give off the vibe you're showcasing here with the Fe. There's nothing womanish about the Fe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    My argument basically revolves around that fact that people like me who are heterosexual & cisgender can't help being like this and much like I don't expect a gay man to be attracted to females, you guys shouldn't expect me to feel attracted to biological men. When I say that men are disgusting I mean it. I experience physical revulsion and disgust if I have to interact with another guy sexually and its off-putting seeing men interact sexually. This isn't something I can control or overcome. 4DSi-DisgustMicroexpression.JPG .

    I tried explaining this to my bisexual gf at the time as well, e_e but for all her NF talk of empathy & idealism, she basically found it bizarre and hard to understand why most other ppl don't find both sexes appealing, which is understandable, because it isn't something she experiences.

    I think asking me to be tolerant is ok, constantly pushing this stuff in my face however isn't, but that's what happens nowadays.
    Not being attracted to trans people doesn’t make you transphobic, dude. That’s not the part of your post that didn’t sit right with me. I can pick out what was transphobic, but I don’t feel the need to unless you want to ask. With that being said, you are very polite with everything you have to say and you’re not truly being disrespectful towards anyone, so there isn’t much to say there.

    edit: there is a post by another user somewhere below you that is so wildly retarded that I wouldn’t even try touching it with a stick even if I wanted to and that stuck out to me way more than your post did
    Last edited by flames; 02-10-2021 at 10:15 PM.
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