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Thread: Aphantasia and Ni leads

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    wayward sellsword Takyon's Avatar
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    Default Aphantasia and Ni leads

    In your mind’s eye, you are able to recall and even build images from what you’ve seen (imagination). However for those with aphantasia, they are unable to recall images, as well as unable to utilize imagination in result.

    With this in mind, for Ni leads who deal with imagination like breathing air, I concluded it would be impossible to have been born with this condition and be Ni lead. Although, it’s only images and not ideas that have been subtracted from the mind so maybe there is still slight leeway for this combination to exist (but I highly doubt it).

    Also, it’s not unheard of to get aphantasia after a surgery. So I wondered for those who have been Ni lead with working imagination up until then, how it must be like for them—probably more devastating than for the average person. Though could this lead to a change of type with enough stress and sufficient drive to adapt?

    edit; grammar!
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    haikus necrosebud's Avatar
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    I was just thinking about someone who said he had this and that he may have been ILI.

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    I may not have aphantasia but I have severe memory loss

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    the function of Ni is like stream of consciousness/pure-ego stuff.... not really image based, although I think you tap into this better the more you are using Fe/Se/Si and a person meditates some of that Ni stuff down.

    If Ni existed without Se in a vacuum it would be very much like that but the way Se works with it dualistically kind of stops it.

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    I've known an LIE with something like this. I asked him about his dreams in class one day and be said he didn't see anything. It was like he dreamed in logical abstractions or something. It was very unusual from my perspective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    I've known an LIE with something like this. I asked him about his dreams in class one day and be said he didn't see anything. It was like he dreamed in logical abstractions or something. It was very unusual from my perspective.

    My dreams are more like waking experiences, more like movies with people, locations, and a story, although the physics is sometimes altered a bit from the real world.

    Most of the images that I construct in my dreams are nearly as detailed as real-world images, but occasionally I will be looking at something and will see it with crystal clarity, and that's when I start thinking that I'm in a dream.

    Functionally, the brain reconstructs everything, including present senses and past memories, from very sparse data. When these objects in my dream take on more and more detail, it's like watching a rendered image being constructed on a computer screen. I can see the machinery as it happens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    My dreams are more like waking experiences, more like movies with people, locations, and a story, although the physics is sometimes altered a bit from the real world.

    Most of the images that I construct in my dreams are nearly as detailed as real-world images, but occasionally I will be looking at something and will see it with crystal clarity, and that's when I start thinking that I'm in a dream.

    Functionally, the brain reconstructs everything, including present senses and past memories, from very sparse data. When these objects in my dream take on more and more detail, it's like watching a rendered image being constructed. I can see the machinery as it happens.
    Yeah.. As I've gotten more aware of my dreams over the years, I've realized they have a lot of similarity to Alice in Wonderland. There's a lot of inconsistency and incoherence in them, and one odd reference that pops into the dream can shift a context or plot entirely. I had one dream where the setting was a Walmart. A moment later it shifted to a football field, with the character I was talking to just continuing on as if nothing happened lol.

    Reading that couple of stories was oddly and unexpectedly scary for me at times once I saw through the cracks of the plot into the dreamlike qualities of the story. A kid might read the book and just get into the story and enjoy the adventures. Me on the other hand, I was noticing the incoherence of one moment to the next along with how keen the characters seemed to be without the coherence. I also noticed how Alice was affected by the dreams and how Alice affected the dreams unconsciously and they all shifted along. It's pretty spooky if you think about it too much lol.

    I sort of get the underlying benevolent intent of it though. Alice naively walks through the dream with an expectation of adventure and enjoyment, asking, "When will I be queen?" And that's what happens at the end of the dream before she wakes up.

    I'm thinking about Crowley's recommendation that everyone read Alice in Wonderland, especially if they're going through the abyss, whatever that is. Shrug lol.

    Lewis Carroll must have had some good dream memory or lucid dreaming skills to be able to write a book like that one. He even took into account how sensory experiences in the real world so to speak can impact the content of a dream especially on the borders of the dream state. I've noticed that myself before.

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    Here's my reasoning. Ni leads indeed are like that, however, consider that you don't need images in order to create a world. It can be like a text adventure, or similar.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology

    An optimist - does not get discouraged under any circumstances. Life upheavals and stressful events only toughen him and make more confident. He likes to laugh and entertain people. Enters contact with someone by involving him with a humorous remark. His humor is often sly and contain hints and double meanings. Easily enters into arguments and bets, especially if he is challenged. When arguing his points is often ironic, ridicules the views of his opponent. His irritability and hot temper may be unpleasant to others. However, he himself is not perceptive of this and believes that he is simply exchanging opinions.

    http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=LIE_Profile_by_Gulenko

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    Quite interesting. My mind generates ridiculous amount real time fantasy which is treated with humongous blur filter and internally expressive bursts.... and people just can not figure out out why on earth I laugh so much alone.
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    Indeed, that is about right for me too. It's obviously because what you think is funny.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology

    An optimist - does not get discouraged under any circumstances. Life upheavals and stressful events only toughen him and make more confident. He likes to laugh and entertain people. Enters contact with someone by involving him with a humorous remark. His humor is often sly and contain hints and double meanings. Easily enters into arguments and bets, especially if he is challenged. When arguing his points is often ironic, ridicules the views of his opponent. His irritability and hot temper may be unpleasant to others. However, he himself is not perceptive of this and believes that he is simply exchanging opinions.

    http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=LIE_Profile_by_Gulenko

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    wdym?
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    Like I'm finna take your dadda
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    wayward sellsword Takyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PunkSailor View Post
    wdym?
    lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takyon View Post
    lol

    If they ever tryna neck, I'll put my foot up in your caca
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    Like I'm finna take your dadda
    Turn that bitch into a soccer ball and rocka, rocka, rocka (brrr)
    Get into it like a suit
    And fuck a stack up like a broker

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    Quote Originally Posted by Takyon View Post
    With this in mind, for Ni leads who deal with imagination like breathing air, I concluded it would be impossible to have been born with this condition and be Ni lead.
    I actually have mild aphantasia and am all but certain I am Ni-lead. It's weird though because my imagination is very intensely felt but not really seen. Consciously I can only dimly picture things in my head, and my ability to turn them around in space, change the lighting, etc is extremely weak to nearly nonexistent. However, I can clearly picture a lot of things when I'm not really trying to. I experience my imagination through almost like a sixth sense rather than as vision. It's super hard to describe and I don't know if this is making any sense, but it's really just like perceiving without actually seeing. Some sort of blind intuitive sight where I know what something looks like and am able to experience it in its full depth without actually being able to generate the image tangibly for myself. I really struggle to describe what it's like. I can see stuff and get extremely sucked into my visions, but I also can't really see the stuff in them. Or at least not see them in a way that makes sense to explain. It's like some kind of hypervision. This is making less sense the more I'm talking about it, sorry

    I'll try to explain it with drawing. I love drawing, but really struggle to compile and pull from a "visual library" like a lot of artists talk about. It's not that I don't know what stuff looks like though because I can readily draw quite a lot of things from memory just fine. It's just that there's not exactly an image in my head of the things I am drawing, but rather just a gut feeling where I just somehow know what they look like. If I sit back in my chair, tune out, and let my consciousness fall to the back of my head I can enter into a state where I can see things in a more conventionally visual way, and I see them very vividly like in my dreams. As soon as I come back from that state though and look down at my paper the images have totally vanished and I draw based on that vague sense of just "knowing" how things look. Another way to put it is that I can't exactly hold the image in front of me while interfacing with the external world. I have to detach from things to see, and the more deeply I disassociate, the more clearly I see them. I space out all the time at my desk and slip in and out of this state readily. I really have no clue if this counts as any form of aphantasia or what
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    Ip's have an ability to draw meticulously well. Ni valuers have bit force sensing sort of style - contrast but it can reach very plain realism. Si valuing people like to draw in vague cartoonist way which can also in some cases approach vividly impressed photo realism when done enough.

    I don't think this is aphantasia anyways.
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    100% discount theum nathair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takyon View Post
    In your mind’s eye, you are able to recall and even build images from what you’ve seen (imagination). However for those with aphantasia, they are unable to recall images, as well as unable to utilize imagination in result.

    With this in mind, for Ni leads who deal with imagination like breathing air, I concluded it would be impossible to have been born with this condition and be Ni lead. Although, it’s only images and not ideas that have been subtracted from the mind so maybe there is still slight leeway for this combination to exist (but I highly doubt it).

    Also, it’s not unheard of to get aphantasia after a surgery. So I wondered for those who have been Ni lead with working imagination up until then, how it must be like for them—probably more devastating than for the average person. Though could this lead to a change of type with enough stress and sufficient drive to adapt?

    edit; grammar!
    I'm probably ILI and don't recall images with much clarity. I can recall relative, positional data which clearly have a spatial component. I have very little memory for faces and can almost never call them to mind, even with great effort, and yet I recognise well-known people immediately I see them so I haven't suffered fusiform face area damage. (Poor ability to recognise faces of people met only a few times in this case I think should be attributed to Fe polr; I think compared to others I don't spend as much time looking at faces.) As for colours I've really no idea. Once coppers were making inquiries about something I had actually seen, but they became very frustrated because after fixating on one point I couldn't tell them normal details (hat, no hat, what colour was his shirt, etc). Because of my 'attitude' in response to their attempts to clarify questions which in the first place hadn't been unclear--I simply didn't know the answers--they thought I was being clever and I only narrowly avoided a sticky situation

    Mental wanderings have a lot of data which should be visual but isn't, by which I mean it's the sort of data which would under normal circumstances be acquired visually, and very clear audio (when people are interacting their language and words are all fully developed). The video is patchier. Flashes of things here and there without strong adherence to form

    As a child I had a tendency to dangerously high fevers (temperatures up to 41), and would have sort of visual hallucinations which frightened me even in waking hours months later.. these were mainly things being too small or too large (for a while I could not tolerate the sight of miniatures of spirits and travel-sized shampoos and things), things becoming grotesquely distorted, and parts migrating to the wrong parts. Not saying this has got anything to do with it but it certainly dis-inclined me to scrutinise visual details of the world to a certain degree in youth, and unaltered patterns obviously have a tendency to persist

    One other thing to consider -- I watched almost no television growing up, and few films. My father by contrast described the telly as his perennial babysitter

    Of course I can't tell how much visual detail my mental wanderings have compared with others'

    I can sometimes picture things happening over and over again, and some are disasters or violence based on what is presently visible. I've bad disaster-vision which seems to be diagnosable as OCD.

    There's a setting I often return to in daydreams, a wood on a hill--nothing fancy just a bit isolated. I don't think I've ever been there. I can describe it so there must be some visual data, but it's more known than seen, if that makes sense

    Daylight sort of doesn't exist; things are always lit by firelight or moonlight so they sometimes sort of emerge from shadows but most 'images' are very shadowy indeed

    Also images are frequently unstable. The wood one day had a labyrinthine path and later it had gone

    Quote Originally Posted by Aramas View Post
    I've known an LIE with something like this. I asked him about his dreams in class one day and be said he didn't see anything. It was like he dreamed in logical abstractions or something. It was very unusual from my perspective.
    I can't recall enough to say with certainty but I've also dreamt concepts and even more concrete nonvisual things such as -- well in one dream I was pursuing a formula that would help me with... something... and I swear I was manipulating the forumula until I woke myself up

    I usually know that I'm dreaming whilst dreaming
    Last edited by theum nathair; 12-03-2023 at 10:12 PM. Reason: lol, lots of considerations

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    I think the negative relationship is Si, not Ni. Ni is able to generate imagery with little need for a stimulus to retain. Si is the one where internal imagery is taken from a stimulus (subjective impression of an object).

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    So, in general, Intuition transfers perceptions in an unconscious way, and this can be either outer or inner objects. It has the character of being 'given,' in contrast to the derived/deduced characters of thinking and feeling. Intuition, as a differentiated function (Ego), transmits perceptions of ideational associations. Introverted Intuition is directed within in the service of cognition and inner perception.

    Ni does not have to be 'images,' as mental imagery can occur in people who are not Ni-leading types.

    Ausra's definition, "perception of time," is fitting, because Ni transfers perceptions of processes across time that are primarily subjective according to the individual's situation in time. Compare it to a sort of 'stacking' or 'layering' of unconscious events that transcend 'time' but are given through time; i.e., temporal intuition.

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    ive experienced this and i concluded its related to my theory about the cranial bones brain muscles wiring etc. i dont think its normal or the state one should be in, however as other cognitive faculties your ability to imagine and in what extents and ways u do it can vary in time and between people
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