Attitudinal Psyche type system

[Aria]

Those resources helped a good deal. Originally I typed VELF with the attitudinal psyche website, but after going down the rabbit hole of Russian-to-English translated sites, I don't think I'm forceful enough (at all) to be 1V. And I don't think I have enough of the social movement/cult leader vibes to be VELF, ha.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding Volition/Will as forcefulness when it's really about being strong willed? Different sources yielded slightly different definitions, which was frustrating, because I consider myself strong-willed but not forceful about it. It seems being strong-willed is often a character trait of 3V, too.

[The Banana King]

Those resources helped a good deal. Originally I typed VELF with the attitudinal psyche website, but after going down the rabbit hole of Russian-to-English translated sites, I don't think I'm forceful enough (at all) to be 1V. And I don't think I have enough of the social movement/cult leader vibes to be VELF, ha.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding Volition/Will as forcefulness when it's really about being strong willed? Different sources yielded slightly different definitions, which was frustrating, because I consider myself strong-willed but not forceful about it. It seems being strong-willed is often a character trait of 3V, too.

So Volition is about willpower, but also about self-worth and image of 'who we are'. The first function represents excess, so 1V has excess force of will, (excessively) high self-esteem, and a very defined boundary of who they are. The second function is 'normative' in other words it has just the right amount of usage to be healthy for oneself and also helpful towards other people. So 2V people are great at accurately assessing their own abilities as well as others'. They often like to help others achieve their goals. The third function represents a mix of weakness and a desire to appear strong. The third function envies those who have it as a first function. So 3V people give the impression that they are strong-willed, when they really aren't. 3V's self-esteem fluctuates wildly, sometimes they think they're kings and sometimes they think they're dirt. What they need is the accurate assessment that 2V users can give them. Finally the fourth function is weak but at the same time does not mind or even appreciates when others with stronger function use the element. So 4V has a very fuzzy image of self, poor force of will, willingly submits or sees himself as a subordinate, etc. But on the positive side, 4V is the only one that can be truly honest about their shortcomings, because they have no need to 'protect' their will like 3V.

One of the things I don't like about Attitudinal Psyches is that it labels the functions wrong.
According to AP, the functions are ordered from 'best' to 'worst'. When in reality our real strength (what we give to the world or help others with) is our 2nd function.
The first function is something we have in excess but not in a good way. The first function is selfish and can only be tolerated by someone who has it as their fourth function.
The third function isn't quite like Socionics POLR. It's supposed to be a function which is weak but with great potential. Often people find fulfillment in using their third function.
Finally the fourth function isn't necessarily an 'uncaring' function as AP calls it. The fourth function is valued in others and devalued in oneself. It also has a unique strength that ironically stems from its weakness, which is the ability to tolerate those who have it as their first function.

This is just a quick rundown of Volition and the functions as described in some of the Russian sites:
psycheyoga (archive.org)

Oh and finally there's nothing preventing people from having a Psyche Yoga type that is 'opposite' to their Socionics type. Think about it as subtypes rather than a whole new typing system. So you could have 1L even if you have Logic POLR or Logic seeking in Socionics, etc.

[Aria]

So Volition is about willpower, but also about self-worth and image of 'who we are'. The first function represents excess, so 1V has excess force of will, (excessively) high self-esteem, and a very defined boundary of who they are. The second function is 'normative' in other words it has just the right amount of usage to be healthy for oneself and also helpful towards other people. So 2V people are great at accurately assessing their own abilities as well as others'. They often like to help others achieve their goals. The third function represents a mix of weakness and a desire to appear strong. The third function envies those who have it as a first function. So 3V people give the impression that they are strong-willed, when they really aren't. 3V's self-esteem fluctuates wildly, sometimes they think they're kings and sometimes they think they're dirt. What they need is the accurate assessment that 2V users can give them. Finally the fourth function is weak but at the same time does not mind or even appreciates when others with stronger function use the element. So 4V has a very fuzzy image of self, poor force of will, willingly submits or sees himself as a subordinate, etc. But on the positive side, 4V is the only one that can be truly honest about their shortcomings, because they have no need to 'protect' their will like 3V.

Okay, lots of good stuff @The Banana King. I hadn't seen that first Russian site you linked, thanks. I'll do more processing here on what you said (no need to respond unless you want to). Your answers remind me of talking to my ILE friend--we're both in the middle of trying to figure out what types we are.

I'm a teacher so I like helping my students, but I'm not sure how much I actually like helping other people getting to their goals in life. I'm interested in careers like counseling, but that's different from, say, a life coach, since the help is more emotional. I assume people will get to their goals if they're self-motivated enough, or will ask for help if they need it. I often feel like it's pointless to give someone motivation for something, like you either have it intrinsically or you don't. Kinda seems like 1V.

I don't love having to reassure people on a regular basis. Will definitely reassure a friend in crisis, but if they're naturally indecisive or complaining about the same thing for years, I lose patience. At the same time, I've hung in there for a long time with people because I wanted to be an emotional support or didn't want to lose the relationship....

I intentionally make an effort to accommodate other people who have a strong agenda but over time there's tension. Kind of like "this town ain't big enough for the two of us," but I'm very quiet about it, not forceful or outwardly demanding. I think it comes down to sociotype and introversion like you said in your other post. I just quietly begin to do my own thing and avoid people where it seems like it will become a battle of wills. So that could be the tension of 1V wanting to do its own thing and 2E wanting to not ruffle feathers.

As for the third and fourth spots. I like what you said about having tolerance for a person who has your 4th function as their 1st. I was leaning towards 3L and 4F, but I'm able to be active when I need to be. I've been told consistently I have a work ethic. I'm also not that oblivious to aesthetics of my appearance or surroundings. Finally I do value other's Logical input. What do you think being 3F would look like in terms of being weak but having potential?

Hmm, that last point re: being honest about shortcomings. Not sure if that only applies to 4V people?

[The Banana King]

As for the third and fourth spots. I like what you said about having tolerance for a person who has your 4th function as their 1st. I was leaning towards 3L and 4F, but I'm able to be active when I need to be. I've been told consistently I have a work ethic. I'm also not that oblivious to aesthetics of my appearance or surroundings. Finally I do value other's Logical input. What do you think being 3F would look like in terms of being weak but having potential?

Hmm, that last point re: being honest about shortcomings. Not sure if that only applies to 4V people?

So you could think about it this way: What bothers you the most? People who are overly dogmatic, closed to discussion and don't listen to others opinion, or people who are overly materialistic, concerned about their appearance and carnal pleasure or greedy? Of course these are extremes of behaviour and not all 1L are dogmatic and not all 1F are materialistic but both of these are selfish regarding that element, and offputting to those who have 3L or 3F.

Being active is not necessarily a sign of high F. Generally high V and high F indicate activity. For F, usually 2F and 3F are the most active or restless. 1F can be active if they find value in it (usually monetary or physical improvement value). 2F is the most active type. They're referred to in Russian as 'Workers' because they're always doing something.

So about 3F: 3F is often quite active, interested in exercising, etc. I think the biggest problem with 3F is body image issues and anything related to body processes. The overreact to any physical stimuli, sounds, touch, taste, etc. And they hate it when someone (like me) rushes things like eating or cooking for instance. Since 3F is processional Physics, cooking and eating, for them is all about the process. So they get pissed when they cook something nice to you and you slide it right into your mouth in one huge bite. Most of the people in my life are 4F or 2F so nobody ever made a big deal about it. But I find it that all of the few 3F I met in my life complain about how fast I eat and that I don't savour my food. In my defense food is just so tasty that I can't help gobbling it up like I'm starved every time lol. They accuse me of stress-eating or whatever. I just like food damnit!
Another thing is that often they are interested in exercise, dieting, etc. Sometimes to the point of obsession. But it's an obsession that comes from perceived shortcomings in the realm of Physics. Even the good looking ones think they look bad. I guess that obsession with physics is also a hidden strength since they're always trying to improve in the physical world.
1F are also interested in exercise, etc. The main difference I'd say is that 3F is hyper-aware meanwhile 1F is underaware and needs extra stimulation to get their shift of Physics. 1F is described as a 'sensory behemoth'. I relate to that phrase pretty well lol. I don't feel cold unless its under freezing temperatures, heat doesn't bother me much, love fatty and salty food, etc.

4F on the other hand, can be a bit hard to pinpoint since it's basically the absence of Physical 'attachment' so to speak. 1F is described as being full of vitality. So 4F is described as 'lacking vitality'. This is where they got that thing about 4F being prone to suicidal thoughts. I don't think it's about suicide as it is maybe a sort of melancholy to their temperament. 1F is described as being 'big', which makes sense for someone having excess Physics. Usually they are tall, and either fat, muscular, or well-built, even the ladies. 4F on the other hand are described as thin/asthenic. The positive side to 4F is a fearlessness when it comes to their body. And also not being afraid of seeing a bloody scene of crime for instance. Which would make any 3F instantly faint lol.

About the 4V being honest about shortcomings, I got that one from the archived Russian site:
4V is also called 'Fortress' in Russian. (Which kinda matches with 1V being called 'King')

The picture of the universe, living in the soul of the 4th Will, practically repeats the corresponding picture of the 1st Will, i.e. space is a hierarchy consisting of two stages: the upper and the bottom. The difference is that the "fortress" automatically places itself not on the top, as a "king" but on its lower stage, taking the role of a pass-up, subordinate, child.
From here, one of the most characteristic will take the 4th Will - its untimely childishness, which, because of sincerity and simplicity, do not want to call infantilism. In principle, and the 3rd Will infantile, but it tries to masquerade as an adult and so repels. The 4th Will is not masked and so very disposed to itself, although there are in its behavior traits that cause bewilderment and sn off. For example, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, being under the blanket to Madame de Varance, and there continued to call her "mommy", although the nature of the relationship obviously contradicted such treatment.
Unlimited confessionalism - Achilles heel and the most characteristic of the "fortress." Tolstoy long suffered from the fact that is not able to write with the sincerity with which "Confession" Rousseau is written. And he suffered in vain. Tolstoy, with his 1st Will, simply could not write with such reckless frankness, which can only the 4th Will. And it is easy to give confession to it because the "fortress" lacks a sense of personal self-preservation, not the road will - the support of personality, the blow of which could seriously shake his being. For example, Emperor Claudius was able to speak publicly at the trial of one of the witnesses: "This is my mother's release, from the maids, but she always revered me as the master - I speak about it because in my house and now others do not recognize me for the master, "- and not at all to be confused. And do not be embarrassed because publicity was given what he, the emperor already knew: he is not a person and, most importantly, not a person, not at all concerned about his facelessness.
Understated self-esteem is an incomparable, priceless gift. It makes the life of the "fortress" as anyone's easy, cloudless, and the psyche is so stable that even the time, which necessarily leaves the notches on our soul, unsupious mental mechanism, over the 4th Will is not imperious. When there is no solid basis of personality, flogging is an indispensable companion of life, no more effective than flogging a swamp.

[Aria]

So you could think about it this way: What bothers you the most? People who are overly dogmatic, closed to discussion and don't listen to others opinion, or people who are overly materialistic, concerned about their appearance and carnal pleasure or greedy? Of course these are extremes of behaviour and not all 1L are dogmatic and not all 1F are materialistic but both of these are selfish regarding that element, and offputting to those who have 3L or 3F.

The former.

Being active is not necessarily a sign of high F. Generally high V and high F indicate activity. For F, usually 2F and 3F are the most active or restless. 1F can be active if they find value in it (usually monetary or physical improvement value). 2F is the most active type. They're referred to in Russian as 'Workers' because they're always doing something.

High V could explain it, then. Goals energize me. Even hardships, in a way, although I can do nothing for long stretches when the goal is done. When there's a truly inspiring goal I can easily get out of routine or neglect eating/sleeping (less so as I get older).

So about 3F: 3F is often quite active, interested in exercising, etc. I think the biggest problem with 3F is body image issues and anything related to body processes. The overreact to any physical stimuli, sounds, touch, taste, etc. And they hate it when someone (like me) rushes things like eating or cooking for instance. Since 3F is processional Physics, cooking and eating, for them is all about the process. So they get pissed when they cook something nice to you and you slide it right into your mouth in one huge bite. Most of the people in my life are 4F or 2F so nobody ever made a big deal about it. But I find it that all of the few 3F I met in my life complain about how fast I eat and that I don't savour my food. In my defense food is just so tasty that I can't help gobbling it up like I'm starved every time lol. They accuse me of stress-eating or whatever. I just like food damnit!

4F on the other hand, can be a bit hard to pinpoint since it's basically the absence of Physical 'attachment' so to speak. 1F is described as being full of vitality. So 4F is described as 'lacking vitality'. This is where they got that thing about 4F being prone to suicidal thoughts. I don't think it's about suicide as it is maybe a sort of melancholy to their temperament. 1F is described as being 'big', which makes sense for someone having excess Physics. Usually they are tall, and either fat, muscular, or well-built, even the ladies. 4F on the other hand are described as thin/asthenic. The positive side to 4F is a fearlessness when it comes to their body. And also not being afraid of seeing a bloody scene of crime for instance. Which would make any 3F instantly faint lol.

That's hilarious about 3F people caring how you eat. Are they also the people to get annoyed by how others chew, or is that just most people? Ha. This does help clarify 3F vs 4F. I still am not completely sure of myself. I'm definitely an ectomorph/slender, was also notoriously squeamish as a child. Violence doesn't bother me as much as graphic close-ups of wounds, which I can't handle. I have insecurities about certain physical features, like most people, but I don't think I'm obsessive. I do have some sensory sensitives but maybe that's just introversion.

Hmmm....

[The Banana King]

The former.



High V could explain it, then. Goals energize me. Even hardships, in a way, although I can do nothing for long stretches when the goal is done. When there's a truly inspiring goal I can easily get out of routine or neglect eating/sleeping (less so as I get older).





That's hilarious about 3F people caring how you eat. Are they also the people to get annoyed by how others chew, or is that just most people? Ha. This does help clarify 3F vs 4F. I still am not completely sure of myself. I'm definitely an ectomorph/slender, was also notoriously squeamish as a child. Violence doesn't bother me as much as graphic close-ups of wounds, which I can't handle. I have insecurities about certain physical features, like most people, but I don't think I'm obsessive. I do have some sensory sensitives but maybe that's just introversion.

Hmmm....

Yup, chewing sounds too. I'm not sure if its the auditory thing or whether its that I'm 'eating wrong' but my 3F Dad used to get mad at me since I was little for walking around with a snack or whatever and chewing next to him. I have met a few new 3Fs recently which also told me to stop making so much noise when eating. Funny that in over 20 years my dad was the only one to ever complain hahah. For ladies I'd say both 3F and 4F are slender with some exceptions. 4F is described as having 'thin' features, thin eyebrows, thin lips, etc. Also 4F are said to look younger than their age.

The 4th function in general is hard to type since it's usage is so low it feels like it isn't there. One thing to keep in mind is that in times of stress, the fourth function shuts down completely and the person soothes themself with the first function.

[ostevestarko]

It's an interesting system. I'm VLFE.

tip : to those who plays with systems, don't correlate again. leave this fu.ck.ing correlation behind.

[SGF]

lol what a grumpy image to represent FLEV



Sexta 5 kinda does seem like..

LII - ESE (VLEF - FELV)
LSI - EIE (FLEV - VELF)

.. at least as far as stereotypes go.



Russian translated description from psychosophy:


PLEW
1P

You are pragmatic and materialistic person. You are certain in your moves, you are active in life situations. You believe, it's possible to achieve everything working hardly. You are not interested in far perspectives generally, especially if you doubt it can be realized. You are a high efficient person and you go to your purposes solidly. You are able to do many deals at the same time. Also you prefer to have a rest very actively as well as you work. You like to feel that you are stronger and more adapted than others.
2L

You are fast and flexible in thinking. On one hand you like building theories, reasoning, learning new things. On the other one you like sharing your ideas and knowledge with friends and other people around. You are not scared by complicated and confused ideas, on the contrary. Though you learn quickly, sometimes you forget quickly as well, if these things are useless for you. People around find you a good teller, they are never bored with you. In talking you have a subconscious habit to intrigue people and after that to reveal with an interesting and clear answer. You hate people who are not able neither to reason nor to listen.
3E

You are an emotional person very much, you are sensitive and vulnerable. It makes you try to be closed from people around. You don't have many people whom you trust. Towards emotions you value attentiveness, sense of tact, deepness and sincerity. You are able to notice emotional lie and selfishness immediately - it pushes you away. You understand animals well, they like you. Other people find you as a person who is always ready to listen to, to understand, to yield sensibly.
4W

You are a soft and tolerate person. You are able to forgive people if they repent, even after serious mistakes. It's difficult to refuse to people for you, and people around can make a profit from it. But on the other hand you are always ready to defend your friends and relatives, you defend them more stronger than yourself. You are able to be a true companion for people whom you love and value. As for self-organization, perhaps you do everything at the last moment. You admire responsible and confident people, who know what they purpose.

That 3E description is creepy accurate.. wtf.

@Uncle Ave isn't Penny VELF ? Btw I think this is a much easier and str8 forward than socionics duality.

[Aquamarine]

I got EFLV, and I do relate to some aspects of it. At first I was like this is definitely not me. But I decided to read about each attitude I started to see how it actually fit me (not 100%). I still need to read more on the other types to see if any one resonates with me more.