How can an IEI be useful to SLE? + Ego death side effect of Dualizing

[Yesein]

ESTp's are so perfect. They can do anything. They can cook, clean, garden, surf, row boats, shoot, hunt, survive without complaint in the wild, make a bedside table.
IEI"s are useless and we don't do anything

So called Dualisation has just brought impending doom upon me. An ego death to the max. A bundle of insecurity and self jabs. I kind of realized how crap my psycho-type is only when a SLE enters the picture. Their social skills aren't even as bad as I thought they'd be for a Fi PoLR, their blasé attitude is very endearing. So I can't even feel more competent in that aspect. Being an IEI is a cursed existence.

What the hell do we bring to the table? Why don't SLE score a hot and confident ESE instead?

Ok so a few questions. First, if you are IEI, do you have something similar in the presence of an SLE? Do you feel bedazzled and paralyzed by their sheer competence, "can do" attitude, strength, everything. How do you deal with this. I cannot function in the presence of a god.

And secondly if you are another type or IEI yourself, what the hell does the IEI supply the SLE? How can IEI be useful to them? And it also be a fair exchange?

Is it an equal trade off (IEI helps soothe the SLE's mood swings, is all patient with their impulses and keeps them "happy", and the SLE is all practical and useful and physically motivated), because the SLE is good at and enjoys being active, but the IEI not as much, so it's actually no biggie *shrugs nonchalantly* for the both of them? Is that it?

[Sol]

ESTp's are so perfect. They can do anything. They can cook, clean, garden

Si
check your type

> Being an IEI is a cursed existence.

check your type

> Do you feel bedazzled and paralyzed by their sheer competence, "can do" attitude, strength, everything.

duality is IR which the least inspire negative self-perception

> How do you deal with this. I cannot function in the presence of a god.

in weak regions people often are below social average

> Is it an equal trade off (IEI helps soothe the SLE's mood swings

as example: Ni points better directions to apply Se will and Fe inspires emotions for this

[YXPR]

ESTPs are not perfect. I've never met an SLE who could cook, clean, garden, surf, row boats, shoot, hunt and survive without complaint in the wild. And you might find their Fi polr endearing but most people don't. It's a pain in the ass for them just as much as your Te polr is a pain in the ass for you. I do think that duality is great but here you are idealizing your duals way too much.

You should look up threads about Fi polr on the forum. It might help you to understand how IEIs' Fi dem can help SLEs.

Please forget about all that stuff about IEIs having to keep SLEs happy and helping with their mood swings. This sounds a lot like submission and it's not the way to go. It's not your duty to make anyone happy.

When I think of my relationships with SLEs IRL I feel like I bring them the exact same thing that I bring to everybody else, they just seem more enthusiastic about it. Try to identify what you truly want to bring to someone in a relationship; that's what your dual will want to receive (and if they don't then they probably aren't the right dual for you).

[Adam Strange]

True Story #1

SLE's are good at performing tasks in the here-and-now, but have some trouble with Ni and seeing where some of the things they are planning will lead.

SLE: " Hmm, I'm in my car in this gas station and I need some money. I have a gun in my glove compartment. There is money in the gas station. Problem solved."
Three minutes later, the SLE is back in his car, counting the money and thinking that he can now buy a new tire that he's needed for a while. Suddenly, three police cars with flashing lights pull into the station and surround him. He thinks, "WTF?"

IEI, who wasn't there three minutes ago to say "Don't do that, Marcus."

True Story #2

LIE meets SLE at class reunion.
LIE: Hi, SLE. You look good for a guy your age.
SLE: Yeah. Thanks. I'm teaching little league. It keeps me busy.
IEI zooms in from nowhere and says to LIE "Hi, have we met?" LIE sees that she's IEI, is happy for his friend who finally has a GF.
LIE: "No. Are you guys together?"
IEI, happily: "For three months!"
LIE: "Well, I think you guys are a perfect match."
SLE, dully: "Huh"
IEI, smiling: "Do you really think so?"
LIE: "I'm sure of it. There are only a couple of things that could come between you guys."
IEI moves between LIE and SLE, with a worried look: "Like what?"
LIE: "Well, you have a hard time in the real world. It's like you have one eye on the future and you miss what's happening around you. SLE can probably send you to the grocery store with a list for milk and steaks and you'll come back with two bathrobes."
SLE starts laughing. "That's totally true."
LIE, turns towards SLE buddy: "And you, your problem is that you might cheat."
IEI looks sharply at him, he demurs. "Yeah, I could see that."
LIE: "But you shouldn't. Because this woman is really fucking rare and the fact that you guys are together at all is kind of a miracle and if you screw it up, she's not going to give you a second chance and you'll never, ever find another woman who will love you like she does."
IEI and SLE look at each other, say nothing. LIE goes to get a drink.

That was four years ago. They are still together.

[eiemo]

SLE's are good at performing tasks in the here-and-now, but have some trouble with Ni and seeing where some of the things they are planning will lead.

SLE: " Hmm, I'm in my car in this gas station and I need some money. I have a gun in my glove compartment. There is money in the gas station. Problem solved."
Three minutes later, the SLE is back in his car, counting the money and thinking that he can now buy a new tire that he's needed for a while. Suddenly, three police cars with flashing lights pull into the station and surround him. He thinks, "WTF?"

IEI, who wasn't there three minutes ago to say "Don't do that, Marcus."

I agree with @Adam Strange here.

I would say that even though I have an eye on the future, I very much have this sense of "act now, complete the tasks now" that I do not think an IxI normally has. I was so silly for ever thinking I was IEI, because I do not struggle to act. In fact, in a game like chess, I would say that I do not plan enough because I just react.

[Rusal]

Si
check your type

When someone said he liked "non-intelligent girls" you said that indicated T type. When you read someone admires a SLE that can cook and clean that indicates Si. Pick a non-verbal impression typing technique that is constant.

OP: when IEI and SLE are together, it seems they work better and complement when there is a goal, as would any other dyad. Read Gulenko's description of that dyad, it's 80% what happens.

[Yesein]

ESTPs are not perfect. I've never met an SLE who could cook, clean, garden, surf, row boats, shoot, hunt and survive without complaint in the wild. And you might find their Fi polr endearing but most people don't. It's a pain in the ass for them just as much as your Te polr is a pain in the ass for you. I do think that duality is great but here you are idealizing your duals way too much.

You should look up threads about Fi polr on the forum. It might help you to understand how IEIs' Fi dem can help SLEs.

Please forget about all that stuff about IEIs having to keep SLEs happy and helping with their mood swings. This sounds a lot like submission and it's not the way to go. It's not your duty to make anyone happy.

When I think of my relationships with SLEs IRL I feel like I bring them the exact same thing that I bring to everybody else, they just seem more enthusiastic about it. Try to identify what you truly want to bring to someone in a relationship; that's what your dual will want to receive (and if they don't then they probably aren't the right dual for you).

Idealizing duals way too much... yeah, you're right. I expressed a lot of vulnerability in this post. Possibly relevant is my age. I'm very young and sorely undeveloped. To see someone be able to do all the things I struggle with such as 4D Se and 4D Te has inspired an inferiority complex and a grandiose impression of the sociotype.

Never met an SLE that does all that? Well I currently live in a rural setting. That could play a role. I've met ESTp's that live in the city and they do not have the arsenal of hobbies like this one does. Yeah, I guess I can see how Fi PoLR would be just as bad to them as Te is to me, I just ignore the occasional rudeness and uncouth outbursts, as well as the explosive and sudden way their insecurities manifest. I can tell that it is hell for them and they hate themselves for being bad at it but also cannot use the function properly. An ancedote that has suddenly come to mind is an ILE gave a compliment that was sweet enough in words - "You look cool", but the delivery was very aggressive and abrupt.

Thanks for your advice, I'l be pondering over it

[Yesein]

Si
check your type

> Being an IEI is a cursed existence.

check your type

> Do you feel bedazzled and paralyzed by their sheer competence, "can do" attitude, strength, everything.

duality is IR which the least inspire negative self-perception

> How do you deal with this. I cannot function in the presence of a god.

in weak regions people often are below social average

> Is it an equal trade off (IEI helps soothe the SLE's mood swings

as example: Ni points better directions to apply Se will and Fe inspires emotions for this

Too little words used and ambiguity. I don't know exactly what you mean by all this. For example I don't know if you commented Si as being related to the nature of those activities or insinuating Si is a valued function of mine

[Yesein]

True Story #1

SLE's are good at performing tasks in the here-and-now, but have some trouble with Ni and seeing where some of the things they are planning will lead.

SLE: " Hmm, I'm in my car in this gas station and I need some money. I have a gun in my glove compartment. There is money in the gas station. Problem solved."
Three minutes later, the SLE is back in his car, counting the money and thinking that he can now buy a new tire that he's needed for a while. Suddenly, three police cars with flashing lights pull into the station and surround him. He thinks, "WTF?"

IEI, who wasn't there three minutes ago to say "Don't do that, Marcus."

True Story #2

LIE meets SLE at class reunion.
LIE: Hi, SLE. You look good for a guy your age.
SLE: Yeah. Thanks. I'm teaching little league. It keeps me busy.
IEI zooms in from nowhere and says to LIE "Hi, have we met?" LIE sees that she's IEI, is happy for his friend who finally has a GF.
LIE: "No. Are you guys together?"
IEI, happily: "For three months!"
LIE: "Well, I think you guys are a perfect match."
SLE, dully: "Huh"
IEI, smiling: "Do you really think so?"
LIE: "I'm sure of it. There are only a couple of things that could come between you guys."
IEI moves between LIE and SLE, with a worried look: "Like what?"
LIE: "Well, you have a hard time in the real world. It's like you have one eye on the future and you miss what's happening around you. SLE can probably send you to the grocery store with a list for milk and steaks and you'll come back with two bathrobes."
SLE starts laughing. "That's totally true."
LIE, turns towards SLE buddy: "And you, your problem is that you might cheat."
IEI looks sharply at him, he demurs. "Yeah, I could see that."
LIE: "But you shouldn't. Because this woman is really fucking rare and the fact that you guys are together at all is kind of a miracle and if you screw it up, she's not going to give you a second chance and you'll never, ever find another woman who will love you like she does."
IEI and SLE look at each other, say nothing. LIE goes to get a drink.

That was four years ago. They are still together.

Hahaha your first reference - they don't know how to stick to a narrative, consider plan b's. Very scattered.
I can see how IEI can help with this.

To your second reference -
"SLE, dully: "Huh" - this is the entire type summarised
Getting distracted by shiny things at the grocery store and spending money like it is video game currency - yeah, this is a big problem, and unfortunately for IEI, something they can't wriggle themselves away from and bluff their way out. It is also why semi-duality with an SEE is not ultimately desirable for IEI, as SEE has no patience for this frivolous and uneconomical spending .
I think IEI's are prone to cheat, too, but yeah, I can't see them cheating on an SLE, maybe other types. Creative Fe makes it all to easy for that situation to escalate.
Together 4 years, good on them. That's awesome

[Yesein]

When someone said he liked "non-intelligent girls" you said that indicated T type. When you read someone admires a SLE that can cook and clean that indicates Si. Pick a non-verbal impression typing technique that is constant.

OP: when IEI and SLE are together, it seems they work better and complement when there is a goal, as would any other dyad. Read Gulenko's description of that dyad, it's 80% what happens.

Lol yeah there's something ridiculously simple in Sol's typing method. And the sheer confidence while brandishing this half-baked input. (Sorry Sol if you can hear me)
And exactly, we can admire functions in others that we don't value but struggle with. I still am in awe of Si and admire other's use of it although I'd like to minimize my use of it as much as possible. That's why superego relations exist, too.

Thats an inspiring idea. I'll read the Gulenko description, thanks

[Adam Strange]

Lest I leave you with the wrong impression about SLE's, here is

True Story #3

LIE, to SLE: "You worked in a patent mill in Silicon Valley?"
SLE: "Yes."
LIE: "Don't you have to have an advanced degree to do that?"
SLE: "I have a PhD in Physics."
LIE: "I see. But you're not working in research."
SLE: "Research bores me. I prefer working for high tech firms in their offices."
LIE: "How do you do that?"
SLE: "I have an MBA in business."
LIE: "So why do you want to work here?"
SLE: "It seems interesting." Long pause. "I have all these degrees and I don't know why."

One-dimensional Ni is 1D Ni.

[marooned]

i can idealize a few certain others a lot sometimes and it felt like it was really who they were and everything they represent, and in the comparison i would always (of course) be so dreadfully lacking. but it was really myself and all of my longings about myself, powerful enough to destroy me. it was easier for them to surface through projection.

i'm sure this is obvious and unhelpful, but it's what i was thinking

[SGF]

ESTp's are so perfect. They can do anything. They can cook, clean, garden, surf, row boats, shoot, hunt, survive without complaint in the wild, make a bedside table.
IEI"s are useless and we don't do anything

So called Dualisation has just brought impending doom upon me. An ego death to the max. A bundle of insecurity and self jabs. I kind of realized how crap my psycho-type is only when a SLE enters the picture. Their social skills aren't even as bad as I thought they'd be for a Fi PoLR, their blasé attitude is very endearing. So I can't even feel more competent in that aspect. Being an IEI is a cursed existence.

What the hell do we bring to the table? Why don't SLE score a hot and confident ESE instead?

Ok so a few questions. First, if you are IEI, do you have something similar in the presence of an SLE? Do you feel bedazzled and paralyzed by their sheer competence, "can do" attitude, strength, everything. How do you deal with this. I cannot function in the presence of a god.

And secondly if you are another type or IEI yourself, what the hell does the IEI supply the SLE? How can IEI be useful to them? And it also be a fair exchange? @ similarly SLEs are only ppl with many flaws and problems, same as us.

Is it an equal trade off (IEI helps soothe the SLE's mood swings, is all patient with their impulses and keeps them "happy", and the SLE is all practical and useful and physically motivated), because the SLE is good at and enjoys being active, but the IEI not as much, so it's actually no biggie *shrugs nonchalantly* for the both of them? Is that it?

In dual pairs, conflicts rarely arise, and if they do arise, they are quickly and painlessly resolved. The partners fit together like two halves of a torn photograph, together making up one whole. But precisely due to the fact that mutual understanding is quickly established and there are no internal sources of tension, the dual is not immediately distinguished from other people. The dual seems too simple and straightforward, and therefore not worthy of attention. This is the first position that a person can take upon meeting a dual. Rather, it is characteristic of extroverts. The second position is when you tell yourself: he is too good for me, I can hardly please him. This position is more typical for an introvert. Both of these positions are found in people who did not have experience of dual communication in childhood.

Source: https://socioniks.net/article/?id=89

I admit EIE's people skills can be intimidating at first and they do seem very smart. Personal experience however interacting with certain specific ppl who type as EIE has only been disappointing past the initial stage of awe & idealization... idk what G is on about there in the article, but in my case I felt irritation from about midway through which gradually turned into severe annoyance and anger leading to constant reoccurring conflict in duality relations.

"The dual is perceived as a shadow, as something completely natural and therefore meaningless. How much you needed this person, you perceive only when you broke up with him. A person perceives and experiences the loss of the dual very sharply, for a long time he does not find a place for himself. Having got used to the dual, having acquired the experience of dualization, you finally begin to realize that his presence calms you down, gives you a feeling of security. With favorable subtypes, this effect is enhanced even more."

haven't felt anything like this with anyone tbh.

[ouronis]

There are a lot of shitty SLEs out there. Those are the ones that usually form one-sided dependent relationships with an IEI (the IEI is the dependent one) that is then abused (because remember these are shitty SLEs we're talking about - even the good ones like to throw a random punch from time to time). The IEI never leaves this abusive relationship and if they do, regret it for the rest of their lives. Therefore, whether you are useless or not never enters the picture because the SLE you get won't give you enough recovery time between backslaps to think about whether you're doing good or not.

[Yesein]

i can idealize a few certain others a lot sometimes and it felt like it was really who they were and everything they represent, and in the comparison i would always (of course) be so dreadfully lacking. but it was really myself and all of my longings about myself, powerful enough to destroy me. it was easier for them to surface through projection.

i'm sure this is obvious and unhelpful, but it's what i was thinking

No, this is helpful I'm glad I am not alone in this complex.
It is self destructive, yes. It greatly halts self progress because all focus tunes into the idealized person, and you can painfully feel the missing pieces in yourself that this person is filled to the brim with.

[Yesein]

In dual pairs, conflicts rarely arise, and if they do arise, they are quickly and painlessly resolved. The partners fit together like two halves of a torn photograph, together making up one whole. But precisely due to the fact that mutual understanding is quickly established and there are no internal sources of tension, the dual is not immediately distinguished from other people. The dual seems too simple and straightforward, and therefore not worthy of attention. This is the first position that a person can take upon meeting a dual. Rather, it is characteristic of extroverts. The second position is when you tell yourself: he is too good for me, I can hardly please him. This position is more typical for an introvert. Both of these positions are found in people who did not have experience of dual communication in childhood.

Source: https://socioniks.net/article/?id=89

I admit EIE's people skills can be intimidating at first and they do seem very smart. Personal experience however interacting with certain specific ppl who type as EIE has only been disappointing past the initial stage of awe & idealization... idk what G is on about there in the article, but in my case I felt irritation from about midway through which gradually turned into severe annoyance and anger leading to constant reoccurring conflict in duality relations.

"The dual is perceived as a shadow, as something completely natural and therefore meaningless. How much you needed this person, you perceive only when you broke up with him. A person perceives and experiences the loss of the dual very sharply, for a long time he does not find a place for himself. Having got used to the dual, having acquired the experience of dualization, you finally begin to realize that his presence calms you down, gives you a feeling of security. With favorable subtypes, this effect is enhanced even more."

haven't felt anything like this with anyone tbh.

That first paragraph definitely resonates with me, the not feeling good enough. I rarely feel this with anyone, only activity and dual.

Yeah, EIE's are a type that for me also start off being too good to be true. Their sense of humor, engaging commentary and ability to captivate a room full of people with their funny stories is very appealing. They also have a cute twinkle in their eye. They know how to get people to like them for sure. Even after a inappropriate on all levels meltdown that for anyone else would be inexcusable they can restore people's trust and positive disposition. The Fe subtype is just too goddamn charming, hence all their toxic traits are excused!

I have seen one platonic EIE-LSI duality. They had a lot of fun with each other, teamed up for pranks. They are so close actually that the LSI is going to make space in his new house for the EIE to live with him and girlfriend (who I think is gamma SF). Maybe it depends on your subtype. As an IEI-Fe, I generally prefer introverts. Maybe you'd change your mind with an EIE Ni subtype, they have a completely different style and a more contemplative temperament. They still have a tendency towards melodrama, but it is much more self contained.

The last part resonates with me after only 2 weeks of dualisation, but I've also felt this way before with Mirrors, Semi duals and Illusionary.

[Yesein]

There are a lot of shitty SLEs out there. Those are the ones that usually form one-sided dependent relationships with an IEI (the IEI is the dependent one) that is then abused (because remember these are shitty SLEs we're talking about - even the good ones like to throw a random punch from time to time). The IEI never leaves this abusive relationship and if they do, regret it for the rest of their lives. Therefore, whether you are useless or not never enters the picture because the SLE you get won't give you enough recovery time between backslaps to think about whether you're doing good or not.

Oh jeez. Crushing of ideals. But yes, I agree. SLE riff raff exists.
I can't see an SLE being physically abusive towards a loved one. I just can't. I thought SLE's preserved their hostility for outsiders.
I have been around an unstable SLE before that had frequent anger outbursts, but they never harmed or punched a family member or significant other, just a wall, pillar, and even themselves in the form of self harm. Although that took a manipulative turn. . .

I do know an ILI that has been violent towards weaker and vulnerable people. Intuitives can be quite bad at managing their anger.

But yes, IEI's would be one type to stick around in an abusive relationship or even friendship.

[SGF]

I have seen one platonic EIE-LSI duality. They had a lot of fun with each other, teamed up for pranks. They are so close actually that the LSI is going to make space in his new house for the EIE to live with him and girlfriend (who I think is gamma SF). Maybe it depends on your subtype. As an IEI-Fe, I generally prefer introverts. Maybe you'd change your mind with an EIE Ni subtype, they have a completely different style and a more contemplative temperament. They still have a tendency towards melodrama, but it is much more self contained.

Yeah, already did in as far as the EIE's type was accurate (which I think it was, EIE-H aka Ni sub). So much nagging from the EIEs part.. extremely irritating. Leaving that felt liberating tbh, 0 sense of loss. stages of the relationship on my end: idealization & awe --> lots to talk about and things in common --> mild irritation at criticisms and nagging --> gradual buildup of extreme irritation and anger --> disillusionment & repeating conflict --> escape.

[Northstar]

Yeah, what can I say.. I don't think the duals seem very interesting for extroverts when younger, it's only when you get more experience you start to understand even the fact that there are wildly different personalities and it actually matters. I think for SLE (or extroverted and sensing types in general) it's easy to just go for the good-looking and exciting people at first until after enough disappointments you realize something about duality, perhaps after meeting one accidentally.

I find it a bit difficult to put into words, but IEI are the perfect combination of mysterious insight, subtle but delightfully dramatic and mocking Fe and ability to not be offended by rudeness. They seem to be amazed of your capability to do mundane and trivial things while living in this intriguing dreamworld. Interacting with IEI is never boring because while they do very little in the real world, all those mental explorations result in a lot of unexpected insights and while impractical they usually seem very smart in philosophical ways and are eager to understand the world. They just need help with the perception of the static reality, confirming what is real and what isn't, help with practical things and sometimes a bit of push to venture out in the world and actually do things using their body instead of their mind. I don't see them as useless. Sure, they might not perform these practical mundane boring tasks very well, but it's the mind of an IEI that is an endless source of interesting conversations, funny expressions and vocal impressions. IEI are the masters of using their voice to convey emotions, truly dramatic or often in the form of mockery. Making fun of other people is something both SLE and IEI enjoy. The world-rejecting quality of Ni-Se is reflected in the tastes that beta NF have for disturbing, otherworldly unreal and even violent art. The tastes of Ne/Si valuers often seem bland and mundane in comparison.. too soft, wholesome and infantile.
IEI have the capability of predicting social outcomes very well and can help the SLE to not make social blunders that they sometimes make due to brashness that results in social backlash. However being irrationals, they don't mind a bit of chaos and rule-breaking..

To summarize, I definitely think IEI have a lot to offer to the SLE, it's just not in the form of practical things. It's their superbly weird insightful minds, suitably demure sweetness and capacity for forgiveness. SLE often have a problem of being dissatisfied with anything they have, forever reaching for something more. Enjoying what you have in the moment is not for ignoring Si. With an IEI you can somehow exist outside time and reality for a while and feel happy. That is enough. They don't need to be productive or capable in the physical world. They can inject meaning into the most basic mundane things. Se in itself just sees things as they truly are, devoid of feelings, potentalities or meaning and sometimes this can feel depressingly banal.

[Bethanyclaire]

Well I guess they just realise how nice we are, or try to be..or need to be.. and they want to be part of that, or help us with it. And I guess we see the ‘nice’ in them too.

[SGF]

Yeah, what can I say.. I don't think the duals seem very interesting for extroverts when younger, it's only when you get more experience you start to understand even the fact that there are wildly different personalities and it actually matters. I think for SLE (or extroverted and sensing types in general) it's easy to just go for the good-looking and exciting people at first until after enough disappointments you realize something about duality, perhaps after meeting one accidentally.

I remember Jack saying something similar about SEI, he found them uninteresting, boring even to begin with.

[Northstar]

I remember Jack saying something similar about SEI, he found them uninteresting, boring even to begin with.

Yeah that's probably how you often find your duals before you actually get to know what they are about. I had a relationship with an SEI and the Fe creative / Ti HA part matched with a dual but the intriguing coolness of Ni was missing so eventually it got too plain and boring and felt like things were never going anywhere, too much focus on sensory enjoyment and too little mental stimulation.

[SGF]

Well I guess they just realise how nice we are, or try to be..or need to be.. and they want to be part of that, or help us with it. And I guess we see the ‘nice’ in them too.

to me it sounded kinda like the IEI likes to manipulate the SLE and mock ppl, the SLE tho enjoys this malefic side of the IEI and goes along with it fully aware whats going on.. haha.



..however this is supposed to be true of every beta:

Other respected values ​​of the Beta Quadra are heroism and dedication. It can rightfully be called a quadra of passionaries. A passionary, according to L. Gumilev, is a person who is able to sacrifice much, up to his own life, in the name of the struggle for an idea. Quadra Beta is the main supplier of selfless fighters and fanatics of all kinds.

considering this applies to me even when I'm chronically depressed, there is probably something to it.

[Adam Strange]

Yeah, what can I say.. I don't think the duals seem very interesting for extroverts when younger, it's only when you get more experience you start to understand even the fact that there are wildly different personalities and it actually matters. I think for SLE (or extroverted and sensing types in general) it's easy to just go for the good-looking and exciting people at first until after enough disappointments you realize something about duality, perhaps after meeting one accidentally.

I find it a bit difficult to put into words, but IEI are the perfect combination of mysterious insight, subtle but delightfully dramatic and mocking Fe and ability to not be offended by rudeness. They seem to be amazed of your capability to do mundane and trivial things while living in this intriguing dreamworld. Interacting with IEI is never boring because while they do very little in the real world, all those mental explorations result in a lot of unexpected insights and while impractical they usually seem very smart in philosophical ways and are eager to understand the world. They just need help with the perception of the static reality, confirming what is real and what isn't, help with practical things and sometimes a bit of push to venture out in the world and actually do things using their body instead of their mind. I don't see them as useless. Sure, they might not perform these practical mundane boring tasks very well, but it's the mind of an IEI that is an endless source of interesting conversations, funny expressions and vocal impressions. IEI are the masters of using their voice to convey emotions, truly dramatic or often in the form of mockery. Making fun of other people is something both SLE and IEI enjoy. The world-rejecting quality of Ni-Se is reflected in the tastes that beta NF have for disturbing, otherworldly unreal and even violent art. The tastes of Ne/Si valuers often seem bland and mundane in comparison.. too soft, wholesome and infantile.
IEI have the capability of predicting social outcomes very well and can help the SLE to not make social blunders that they sometimes make due to brashness that results in social backlash. However being irrationals, they don't mind a bit of chaos and rule-breaking..

To summarize, I definitely think IEI have a lot to offer to the SLE, it's just not in the form of practical things. It's their superbly weird insightful minds, suitably demure sweetness and capacity for forgiveness. SLE often have a problem of being dissatisfied with anything they have, forever reaching for something more. Enjoying what you have in the moment is not for ignoring Si. With an IEI you can somehow exist outside time and reality for a while and feel happy. That is enough. They don't need to be productive or capable in the physical world. They can inject meaning into the most basic mundane things. Se in itself just sees things as they truly are, devoid of feelings, potentalities or meaning and sometimes this can feel depressingly banal.

Quoted for posterity.

[Northstar]

to me it sounded kinda like the IEI likes to manipulate the SLE and mock ppl, the SLE tho enjoys this malefic side of the IEI and goes along with it fully aware whats going on.. haha.



..however this is supposed to be true of every beta:


considering this applies to me even when I'm chronically depressed, there is probably something to it.

Yes, though I would say the beta irrationals are less strongly idealistic and fanatic than the rationals. I do however value heroism and dedication to "your own", and your "brothers in arms". IEI often have difficulty making a final decision what their opinion on an ideological matter is, compared to EIE. SLE are have a smaller "circle of caring" compared to LSI who have a more global perspective (again, like the EIE). This is why the charismatic heads of states or long-running dictators are more often the EIE or LSI, I seem to remember Gulenko talks about this in his articles about process vs. result, the result types are more revolutionary but the process types displace the original revolutionaries and keep the new state running afterwards.

[ouronis]

Oh jeez. Crushing of ideals. But yes, I agree. SLE riff raff exists.
I can't see an SLE being physically abusive towards a loved one. I just can't. I thought SLE's preserved their hostility for outsiders.
I have been around an unstable SLE before that had frequent anger outbursts, but they never harmed or punched a family member or significant other, just a wall, pillar, and even themselves in the form of self harm. Although that took a manipulative turn. . .

I do know an ILI that has been violent towards weaker and vulnerable people. Intuitives can be quite bad at managing their anger.

But yes, IEI's would be one type to stick around in an abusive relationship or even friendship.

I mean, if you had made the claim "most SLEs" are not like this, I might have been inclined to back down, but it seems that you are implying no SLEs are like this and honestly, that just doesn't mesh with demographics and probability - it would be easy to construct an argument against this at the population level. But I guess even then it seems like IEIs gravitate towards romantic, dramatic, broken things.

[Adam Strange]

There are a lot of shitty SLEs out there. Those are the ones that usually form one-sided dependent relationships with an IEI (the IEI is the dependent one) that is then abused (because remember these are shitty SLEs we're talking about - even the good ones like to throw a random punch from time to time). The IEI never leaves this abusive relationship and if they do, regret it for the rest of their lives. Therefore, whether you are useless or not never enters the picture because the SLE you get won't give you enough recovery time between backslaps to think about whether you're doing good or not.

@ouronis, I once watched an LII singer in a band (he's pretty good) grasp the lapel formed by the open Hawaiian shirt of the SLE guitarist and say, ambiguously but with some disparagement behind it, "I see that you're rocking some (I can't remember his exact words, but they meant "latest style" clothes). The SLE missed the insult, and just said, fast "Yeah, are you gonna show up for practice tonight at 6?"

I took this to be a clash of Si and Se. I thought the LII secretly hated the SLE for his clumsy intrusions into the LII's space, but I later heard that they go out drinking together, so I might have been wrong.

As for painting "everyone" with the same brush, I'd say that any type can be an asshole. My LSE sister hates an EII male who is in love with her and who abuses his SLI wife. Who would have suspected that from an EII?

But I was wondering if your views towards SLE's are colored by this difference in functions? Because while I do know more SLE's who are in trouble with the law, most of them are law-abiding citizens. Some are even very protective of their loved ones.
Do you see a different subset?

As for painting "Everyone" with the same brush, I'd say that any type can be an asshole. My LSE sister hates an EII male who is in love with her and who also verbally abuses his SLI wife. Who would have expected that from an EII?

[ouronis]

@ouronis, I once watched an LII singer in a band (he's pretty good) grasp the lapel formed by the open Hawaiian shirt of the SLE guitarist and say, ambiguously but with some disparagement behind it, "I see that you're rocking some (I can't remember his exact words, but they meant "latest style" clothes). The SLE missed the insult, and just said, fast "Yeah, are you gonna show up for practice tonight at 6?"

I took this to be a clash of Si and Se. I thought the LII secretly hated the SLE for his clumsy intrusions into the LII's space, but I later heard that they go out drinking together, so I might have been wrong.

As for painting "everyone" with the same brush, I'd say that any type can be an asshole. My LSE sister hates an EII male who is in love with her and who abuses his SLI wife. Who would have suspected that from an EII?

But I was wondering if your views towards SLE's are colored by this difference in functions? Because while I do know more SLE's who are in trouble with the law, most of them are law-abiding citizens. Some are even very protective of their loved ones.
Do you see a different subset?

As for painting "Everyone" with the same brush, I'd say that any type can be an asshole. My LSE sister hates an EII male who is in love with her and who also verbally abuses his SLI wife. Who would have expected that from an EII?

I am describing a dynamic that seems likely to arise given the common failings of both types, not a prophecy. The joke I was trying to imply is that if there are 13 SLEs for every 1 IEI, that IEI gets the worst of the lot and the other 12 SLEs have normal healthy relationships with other types due to the caricaturized IEI's values and weaknesses (so don't waste your time worrying whether you're good enough).

[Adam Strange]

I am describing a dynamic that seems likely to arise given the common failings of both types, not a prophecy. The joke I was trying to imply is that if there are 13 SLEs for every 1 IEI, that IEI gets the worst of the lot and the other 12 SLEs have normal healthy relationships with other types due to the caricaturized IEI's values and weaknesses (so don't waste your time worrying whether you're good enough).

So you were joking? Sorry, I can't tell in text sometimes. I'd think that the actual outcome of 13 SLE's to 1 IEI would be that the IEI would get the best SLE (after dumping her previous ILE's) and the rest of the SLE's would keep having unhappy relationships with types which can't properly handle their high Se and low Ni and Fe.

So many SLE's just look to me like life has hit them in the head with a baseball bat, and they have no idea why they got that treatment.

IEI’s, on the other hand, seem to be on a merry-go-round of fantastic creatures and they reach for the ring when it comes around but can’t grasp it.

[ouronis]

So you were joking? Sorry, I can't tell in text sometimes. I'd think that the actual outcome of 13 SLE's to 1 IEI would be that the IEI would get the best SLE (after dumping her previous ILE's) and the rest of the SLE's would keep having unhappy relationships with types which can't properly handle their high Se and low Ni and Fe.

So many SLE's just look to me like life has hit them in the head with a baseball bat, and they have no idea why they got that treatment.

That's just the typical duality is perfect theoretical outcome. You of all people should know that's not true

[Adam Strange]

That's just the typical duality is perfect theoretical outcome. You of all people should know that's not true

Honestly, I’m still trying to figure this out.

[eiemo]

Wait aren't you ESI? Then on the other post you were LIE

I don't know, honestly. My problem with ESI is that I am not sure if I fit Ne PoLR and Te suggestive 100% (Although I can come up with new stories easily and I can connect different fields of knowledge, I have trouble seeing different perspectives on opinions). I also might be too emotionally expressive for ESI. My constant type switching in MBTI and Enneagram could point to 1D Ti (I was unsure between INFJ and ESTJ, LOL in MBTI). I am starting to consider EIE-Ni and SEE.

[ouronis]

Honestly, I’m still trying to figure this out.

Don't get stuck on proposed theoretical answers if they contradict real world dynamics. For example: according to socionics, an LII should not be telling an LIE to be more empirical.

[Adam Strange]

Don't get stuck on proposed theoretical answers if they contradict real world dynamics. For example: according to socionics, an LII should not be telling an LIE to be more empirical.

Maybe by "empirical", you mean "Pay more attention to the facts and less to your prejudices." Which I can totally accept. I don't think this advice is unusual for an LII. LII's will formulate a Ti theory, and then will relentlessly Ne test it in the real world. This testing is, of course, empirical.

LIE's, on the other hand, start from what they want and try to piece together bits that will make those wants happen in the real world. No theory involved.

I actually envy the capability of LII's to exclude emotion from their analysis, because my biases always influence my conclusions.

[Aria]

I agree with Northstar's point that one of the best things a healthy IEI could offer an SLE is meaning. I wonder if this meaning is even more important than the ability to future-forecast.

The need for social forecasting might vary depending on the SLE. I’d imagine this would be more important to an SLE who is Social first or second and cares about "rising in the ranks” or having some sort of influence in the world. A Social-last SLE might not care about this gift of the IEI as much, but would still very much care about being able to see the world through emotional rather than pragmatic eyes.


Side note, it seems like future-forecasting might be more crucial in the SEE/ILI pair than with SLE/IEI. Probably because the SEE can be illogical and thus needs more warnings about what will happen as a result of their actions. SLE with developed Thinking is less likely to make irrational decisions, although they still can and do because they’re impulsive.

[Adam Strange]

I don't know, honestly. My problem with ESI is that I am not sure if I fit Ne PoLR and Te suggestive 100% (Although I can come up with new stories easily and I can connect different fields of knowledge, I have trouble seeing different perspectives on opinions). I also might be too emotionally expressive for ESI. My constant type switching in MBTI and Enneagram could point to 1D Ti (I was unsure between INFJ and ESTJ, LOL in MBTI). I am starting to consider EIE-Ni and SEE.

@StarPath, I watched the video that you posted. If you aren't an ESI-Se, then no one is. That's my opinion, for what it's worth. (Hint: My opinion is free.) Well, you could be an SEE-Fi, but I don't see the flash-bang of the SEE.

I rented a car from a woman the other day. She had transparent sparkly fingernails an inch long (Se), clothes that were just flash, a knitted headband that did a half-twist on her forehead (3D Si), and she had big, warm eyes that just spoke of tons of Fi. She told me that she was going to apply for a straight sales job, for commissions. Now that's an SEE. ESI's are a bit more conservative.

[Mila]

Se type order, force or inspire Ni types to help and move their hands to support his cause or ideas. Also IEI needs SLE imposition and force to comply. Part of it is related to admire the strenght and intelligence of SLE and their ability to not turn away or back from IEI provocations and don't be deceived by their tricks.

Edit. Also most of the limitations some of the IEIs perceive in themselves are actually mere tricks of their own minds and fear. I know IEIs who have been raised or influenced for extended periods of time by Se types and they are perfectly capable and normal ppl. At some point it seems they need the influence of Se to develop properly. Probably something similar happens with most types.

[eiemo]

@StarPath, I watched the video that you posted. If you aren't an ESI-Se, then no one is. That's my opinion, for what it's worth. (Hint: My opinion is free.) Well, you could be an SEE-Fi, but I don't see the flash-bang of the SEE.

I rented a car from a woman the other day. She had transparent sparkly fingernails an inch long (Se), clothes that were just flash, a knitted headband that did a half-twist on her forehead (3D Si), and she had big, warm eyes that just spoke of tons of Fi. She told me that she was going to apply for a straight sales job, for commissions. Now that's an SEE. ESI's are a bit more conservative.

I have the moralistic side that is VERY ESI. I am a 1w2, I think. An example of a stereotypical ESI-Se type 1 enneagram is Angela Martin from The Office. She is methodical, strict, and highly focused on morals. I tend to be quite strict on myself and I can be quite assertive.

I am probably not EII because they are Si-valuing (I dislike it when people over-use Si) and I have a very hard time with seeing other perspectives on an issue that I am very passionate about. EIIs would probably not aspire to leadership in the way that I do. I value strictness a bit too much for an EII.

My rationale for 4D Fe: I was speaking in my “presentation voice.” When I present things, I will often do it quite firmly and assertively. However, in normal social situations, I am much more emotionally expressive and goofy. I relate more to the “passionate” than the “sincere” communication style, even though ESI-Ses can sound very businesslike and brief.

[Yesein]

Yeah, already did in as far as the EIE's type was accurate (which I think it was, EIE-H aka Ni sub). So much nagging from the EIEs part.. extremely irritating. Leaving that felt liberating tbh, 0 sense of loss. stages of the relationship on my end: idealization & awe --> lots to talk about and things in common --> mild irritation at criticisms and nagging --> gradual buildup of extreme irritation and anger --> disillusionment & repeating conflict --> escape.

Sorry to hear about your bad experience with your duals. Maybe activity or illusionary will be better for you.

I had an EIE (guardian figure) force me to plan out my entire month, and put a lot of baseless restrictions on me, like "You can only go out 3 times a fortnight". The motive was clear - they wanted most of my free time to be spent on them, and to have a sense of control over my activities and restrict my freedom, because freedom is unpredictable and therefore psychological torment.

So yeah, they can be suffocating. I actually escaped one in the middle of the night, LOL. It was over something stupid. I had a venus fly trap that I didn't take proper care of, so it died, and I jokingly commented, "we should hold a funeral", and the EIE burst into tears and started calling me insensitive for making a funeral joke, and that she had to go to a funeral of a friend, and then started calling me names. I laughed at the ridiculousness of the escalation, EIE got even angrier, I called them crazy, stormed off to my room and planned an escape.
What annoyed me the most was that, had the EIE been in a good mood, the joke would've just slid off and they wouldn't care. Depending on their mood they will react differently. It's exhausting to have to constantly adjust to this. I maintained it for 7 years with this EIE, but as I meet more of this type I can see what's coming and I automatically create a large distance with them. (Although if you do this prepare for them to tell you that they think you're stuck up )

To be fair I do know one healthy EIE (a rare pokemon) that doesn't cry over spilled milk. Thank goodness

[Yesein]

Yeah, what can I say.. I don't think the duals seem very interesting for extroverts when younger, it's only when you get more experience you start to understand even the fact that there are wildly different personalities and it actually matters. I think for SLE (or extroverted and sensing types in general) it's easy to just go for the good-looking and exciting people at first until after enough disappointments you realize something about duality, perhaps after meeting one accidentally.

I find it a bit difficult to put into words, but IEI are the perfect combination of mysterious insight, subtle but delightfully dramatic and mocking Fe and ability to not be offended by rudeness. They seem to be amazed of your capability to do mundane and trivial things while living in this intriguing dreamworld. Interacting with IEI is never boring because while they do very little in the real world, all those mental explorations result in a lot of unexpected insights and while impractical they usually seem very smart in philosophical ways and are eager to understand the world. They just need help with the perception of the static reality, confirming what is real and what isn't, help with practical things and sometimes a bit of push to venture out in the world and actually do things using their body instead of their mind. I don't see them as useless. Sure, they might not perform these practical mundane boring tasks very well, but it's the mind of an IEI that is an endless source of interesting conversations, funny expressions and vocal impressions. IEI are the masters of using their voice to convey emotions, truly dramatic or often in the form of mockery. Making fun of other people is something both SLE and IEI enjoy. The world-rejecting quality of Ni-Se is reflected in the tastes that beta NF have for disturbing, otherworldly unreal and even violent art. The tastes of Ne/Si valuers often seem bland and mundane in comparison.. too soft, wholesome and infantile.
IEI have the capability of predicting social outcomes very well and can help the SLE to not make social blunders that they sometimes make due to brashness that results in social backlash. However being irrationals, they don't mind a bit of chaos and rule-breaking..

To summarize, I definitely think IEI have a lot to offer to the SLE, it's just not in the form of practical things. It's their superbly weird insightful minds, suitably demure sweetness and capacity for forgiveness. SLE often have a problem of being dissatisfied with anything they have, forever reaching for something more. Enjoying what you have in the moment is not for ignoring Si. With an IEI you can somehow exist outside time and reality for a while and feel happy. That is enough. They don't need to be productive or capable in the physical world. They can inject meaning into the most basic mundane things. Se in itself just sees things as they truly are, devoid of feelings, potentalities or meaning and sometimes this can feel depressingly banal.

I can't add anything onto this. It's too good. BRAVO