Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde

[Arfael]

Do you identify with Paul James INTP description?

http://www.intp.org/intprofile.html

He describes an INTp, intuitive subtype, but of course everything he says about the functions is false. Focus on the thinking processes and actual behaviour of that INTP.

Yes. Surprisingly, all of it.

Socionic descriptions of INTps are different, and it took me a long time to realize that they are actually describing the same type as in the MBTI descriptions of INTPs. If you identify with Paul James description you should also identify with Stratiyevskaya's INTp description here:

http://the16types.no-ip.info/forums/...=142731#142731

It's quite difficult to understand. There are some statements that apply to me, some not. But then again, my eyes are getting tired so I just skimmed through it. I'll read it again when my eyes are fully functional

Someone with an EP temperament would probably relate to a lot of things there too. Which of the four socionic temperaments do you identify most with? Read Kristiina's post on page 1 of this thread:

http://the16types.no-ip.info/forums/...pic.php?t=5697

If you also read the comments, that is even better. Can you rule out one of the temperaments as absolutely not you?

I’m definitely not an EJ.

This is weird, though. Reading the whole threads, I really relate so well with the EP temperament. Second would be IP then IJ.

What does this mean? I'm an extrovert?

Read and compare these too, please:

http://www.thechangeworks.com/ennpri...#anchor1998933 (compare the wings of other types too on that site)

http://www.ocean-moonshine.net/e1428...position=12:12

Still confused if I’m a 5w4 or 4w5. This nailed me though:

Fours and Fives share many traits in common and can easily be mistyped, especially when the wing is strong. Both types are frequently introspective, intellectually inclined and prone to withdrawal. The principle difference lies in the relationship that each type has to emotional experience. Fours generally know exactly how they are feeling and are generally comfortable dealing with emotional expressions from others. Fives, on the other hand, tend to detach from direct emotional experience under stress, and need to take time to process their emotional response. Finally, Fours are more inclined to self-revelation than are Fives, who generally find self-disclosure to be especially taxing.

Fours and Fives can easily be mistyped by others, and Fives, especially with the Four wing, sometimes mistype as Fours. Such Fives recognize that they have strong emotions and don't identify with the often extremely cerebral portrait of type Five. But, Fives, unlike Fours, always retain some degree of discomfort when it comes to the experience and expression of their emotional states. Fives tend to fear emotional overwhelm; Fours to welcome it.

I'm definitely a 5w4.

So what do you think? Really appreciate your help here. Thanks.

[FDG]

You're a clear cut either type 7, or less likely type 3.

[Expat]

probably the stratsevskaya descriptions are better suited to get to know better the singlar type after the typing has been done, but that can be somewhat confusing if we try to determine our type by reading them.

Yes, I agree. They're probably not the best ones to start with.

I understand what Expat is saying and how that could work. But then it seems that people decide on a type, and they're locked in. Everything is explained away (by them or others) to fit that type. Just by doing this:

So, for instance, the same behavioral traits can be explained as being due to one function, or another, or a combination of Reinin Dichotomies, or simply as a consequence of the temperament.

If you decide first what type a person is, then it seems that no matter what they do or say, there's an explanation for it. But if that's the case it also doesn't work the other way; you can't determine a person's type by behavioral traits, because there's a number of functions, temperaments, etc. that could explain it.

I see what you're saying and it's something to be aware of, but I also think it's not as bad as that. If you look at very specific behavior traits, such as the one described by Smilingeyes in the Socrates thread as being visible in both ENTjs and ISFps, yes, then it becomes difficult.

But if you look at the behavior of the person as a whole, I think it's easier.

I've been trying to clean up the Stratyevskaya INFj profile just to make it a bit more readable, but I keep wanting to correct her, even sometimes getting so frustrated by what I see as incorrect assumptions that I have to put it away for awhile. Other things she says though, are dead on, and take me by surprise at how right they are.

Perhaps you can do both? Make it more readable and at the same type comment on what you disagree with?

[Phaedrus]

Do you identify with Paul James INTP description?

http://www.intp.org/intprofile.html

He describes an INTp, intuitive subtype, but of course everything he says about the functions is false. Focus on the thinking processes and actual behaviour of that INTP.

Yes. Surprisingly, all of it.

That is a strong argument against the hypothesis that you are an INTj, especially if you also noticed his comparisons between INTPs and INTJs.

Socionic descriptions of INTps are different, and it took me a long time to realize that they are actually describing the same type as in the MBTI descriptions of INTPs. If you identify with Paul James description you should also identify with Stratiyevskaya's INTp description here:

http://the16types.no-ip.info/forums/...=142731#142731

It's quite difficult to understand. There are some statements that apply to me, some not. But then again, my eyes are getting tired so I just skimmed through it. I'll read it again when my eyes are fully functional

Compare Stratiyevskaya's INTp description with her INTj description and you'll see that they are clearly different, for example in their J and P behaviour and in their different attitudes towards society.

I’m definitely not an EJ.

This is weird, though. Reading the whole threads, I really relate so well with the EP temperament. Second would be IP then IJ.

What does this mean? I'm an extrovert?

It could mean that what you identified with in the ENTJ description was actually the EP traits. I hope you also notice that the an IP can act like an EP when inspired, but most of the time she looks more like an IJ to an external observer. EPs are in general more enthusiastic than the more passive IPs.

I'm definitely a 5w4.

As I said, that suggests INTp, intuitive subtype for you.

I asked my best friend yesterday if she thinks I'm a P or J. She said P. I was quite surprised by it; because all the while I thought I was J. Then she gave me so many reasons to support that and I'm finally convinced I'm a P. I can't believe it took me so long to notice.

You are not the only one that has had that experience. It has been the same for me and other INTPs/INTps. I thought that I was a J type when I first took some MBTI based tests on the Internet. I used to score nearly 50/50 on the J/P scale, and I misunderstood the dichotomy. I felt the need for order in my mind and didn't see the obvious signs of P when one looks at my actual behaviour and general life style from an outside perspective. Now it is very clear to me that I fit the criteria for irrational (P) behaviour in both Socionics and MBTT very well.

Have you compared with the socionic criteria for Rational and Irrational behaviour?

Perceiving vs. Judging

Perceiving types are motivated into activity by the changes in a situation. Judging types are motivated into activity by their decisions resulting from the changes in a situation. The most common differences between Perceiving and Judging types are shown below:

Perceiving types
act impulsively following the situation
can start many things at once without finishing them properly
prefer to have freedom from obligations
are curious and like a fresh look at things
work productivity depends on their mood
often act without any preparation

Judging types
do not like to leave unanswered questions
plan work ahead and tend to finish it
do not like to change their decisions
have relatively stable workability
easily follow rules and discipline

Lability (irrationality): positive answers

13. When I practice my hobby, time ceases to exist for me. As a result, I can even forget about some important plans or promises made to other people.

64. I live in harmony with my feelings and do not like to force myself to do things which I do not like or limit myself with plans and schedules.

166. I believe that successful solutions are determined rather by freedom and spontaneity than by planning and organized actions.

253. When I fulfill any of my ideas, a different tempting idea can easily distract me, and then I can abandon my undertaking halfway.

283. Even possessing good thinking, I often lack the skill and desire to plan my work.



Rigidity (rationality): positive answers

31. I can easily plan my day so I can make all the needed contacts and visits in time.

42. I do not like to leave a work uncompleted.

91. First my work, then my rest, but never vice versa!

210. I prefer to schedule my time in advance, and for this reason, I have to now about other's people plans.

219. I am consequent in my actions.

254. I succeed in keeping my affairs in order, and I am allergic to any chaos or unsystematic actions.

261. I am a person of obligations (before my family, friends, and work).

275. When my work is more or less complicated, I first plan it, and then methodically follow my plan.

291. I never give worthless promises and do not respect people who make them too easily.

[Arfael]

Hi guys! Thank God it’s Saturday! Now I can have time to reply to all your posts.

Expat wrote:

If you understand the types correctly, that would mean EP
I'm sorta stuck on how she said "I act like an IJ but I am more like an EP inside (as evidenced by her writing)" and somehow that meant that the "inside" her means more than the way she actually acts.

You are right with that. I think I’m more of an EP than an IP. Even the walking thing applies to me. I think the IP really manifests when there are a lot of repressed emotions particularly anger. Other than that, I’m EP’ish. Wants to be busy all the time and likes to do many things at once.

Although I think there is a very, very big chance I’m an INTp, I’m not discounting others’ opinions here, as I know each of you has his or her own expertise and knowledge that might be very helpful to me.

Joy wrote:

I'm sorta stuck on how she said "I act like an IJ but I am more like an EP inside (as evidenced by her writing)" and somehow that meant that the "inside" her means more than the way she actually acts.

Yes, that’s true. I actually don’t care how I act. I’ve never been self-conscious about myself. I don’t feel awkward in social situations, My best friend, who is by the way an ESFP, told me I’m an extrovert in that sense; but introvert in the sense that I don’t particularly put myself forward to go to parties and stuff like that. I also get physically drained quite fast if I don’t have enough time to recharge by myself.

Joy wrote:

I think that what she's described has shown only that she values Fe, and that she's very stressed out and perhaps even a little depressed and looking to understand herself better in an attempt to regain her grip on her life.

Yes, I’m definitely stressed out, because there are a lot of repressed anger that needs to be released and I keep procrastinating when it comes to doing something about it because it scares me to death. Jesus, relationships that don’t work in the end are the most traumatic of all. Really. It cuts you raw. I’d rather be tortured and cut into pieces than go through them everyday.

MysticSonic wrote:

It seems unlikely, given your spontaneity of thought, that you're INTj.

Yes, I’m very spontaneous. I’m unpredictable, I’m weird, I’m complex. I'm quite definitely a……

MUTANT.

Diana wrote:

Maybe. I think it's that I've been trying to understand the functions, and that's where a lot of the contradictions lie. Also there seem to be some stereotypes of functions and types that when you read the descriptions (especially the long Strate... ones) don't pan out at all. The types don't sound like what people have made them out to be in many cases. Not to me.

That’s what I also noticed. Quite difficult to understand also.

I also noticed a lot of descriptions overlapping each other which makes it all the more difficult to know your exact type.
Thank you for recommending this thread: http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7323

FDG wrote:

You're a clear cut either type 7, or less likely type 3.

May I know what made you suggest that? Was it because of my EP temperament? The INTp descriptions fit me really well also. I think there is a discrepancy to that. Would it be possible for an INTp to be a 7?

Or maybe I’m just a healthy 5w4 so I’m moving towards the healthy manifestations of a 7 (disintegration) and 8 (integration)?

On the other hand, maybe I’m a healthy 7 and I’m moving towards the healthy manifestations of a 1 (disintegration) and 5 (integration)? So that’s the reason I feel more like a 5?

What do you think?

Baby wrote:

I see no reason to believe that there can be no such thing as an ENXx somewhere out there, nor do I see any reason to believe that the introverted/extroverted dichotomy is completely irreconcilable in one swift motion of the psyche.

I think I’m really 50/50 when it comes to I/E dichotomy. I get energized when I’m with people; I also get energized when I’m by myself. I think the withdrawal thing I'm doing just intensifies the I right now. But in some cases, I’m also at my happiest when I’m with a group having fun. If I and E can be reconciled, can I then say I’m an ambivert? That I can be an ENTp and INTp?

Phaedrus wrote:

That is a strong argument against the hypothesis that you are an INTj, especially if you also noticed his comparisons between INTPs and INTJs.

Yes, I think I’m more of an INTp, but I know I can turn into an INTj very easily.

It could mean that what you identified with in the ENTJ description was actually the EP traits. I hope you also notice that the an IP can act like an EP when inspired, but most of the time she looks more like an IJ to an external observer. EPs are in general more enthusiastic than the more passive IPs.

Yes. Thank you for the threads. Can you please explain more of the one in bold letters?

As I said, that suggests INTp, intuitive subtype for you.

Yes, that’s the closest fit that I can think of right now.

You are not the only one that has had that experience. It has been the same for me and other INTPs/INTps. I thought that I was a J type when I first took some MBTI based tests on the Internet. I used to score nearly 50/50 on the J/P scale, and I misunderstood the dichotomy. I felt the need for order in my mind and didn't see the obvious signs of P when one looks at my actual behaviour and general life style from an outside perspective. Now it is very clear to me that I fit the criteria for irrational (P) behaviour in both Socionics and MBTT very well.

I’m also quite 50/50 with my P and J. This explains the confusion…

Have you compared with the socionics criteria for Rational and Irrational behaviour?

Perceiving vs. Judging

Perceiving types are motivated into activity by the changes in a situation. Judging types are motivated into activity by their decisions resulting from the changes in a situation. The most common differences between Perceiving and Judging types are shown below:

Perceiving types
act impulsively following the situation
can start many things at once without finishing them properly
prefer to have freedom from obligations
are curious and like a fresh look at things
work productivity depends on their mood
often act without any preparation

Judging types
do not like to leave unanswered questions
plan work ahead and tend to finish it
do not like to change their decisions
have relatively stable workability
easily follow rules and discipline

Lability (irrationality): positive answers

13. When I practice my hobby, time ceases to exist for me. As a result, I can even forget about some important plans or promises made to other people.

64. I live in harmony with my feelings and do not like to force myself to do things which I do not like or limit myself with plans and schedules.

166. I believe that successful solutions are determined rather by freedom and spontaneity than by planning and organized actions.

253. When I fulfill any of my ideas, a different tempting idea can easily distract me, and then I can abandon my undertaking halfway.

283. Even possessing good thinking, I often lack the skill and desire to plan my work.



Rigidity (rationality): positive answers

31. I can easily plan my day so I can make all the needed contacts and visits in time.

42. I do not like to leave a work uncompleted.

91. First my work, then my rest, but never vice versa!

210. I prefer to schedule my time in advance, and for this reason, I have to now about other's people plans.

219. I am consequent in my actions.

254. I succeed in keeping my affairs in order, and I am allergic to any chaos or unsystematic actions.

261. I am a person of obligations (before my family, friends, and work).

275. When my work is more or less complicated, I first plan it, and then methodically follow my plan.

291. I never give worthless promises and do not respect people who make them too easily.

I think that I’m a P, although I’ve learned to strengthen my J because I had to. Very big difference.

Pardon the questions. I'm a very, very inquiring person, as you all noticed

This is a really LONG post. Serves me right for not having enough time...

Thanks for all your replies. Truly grateful.

Sincerely.

[CuriousSoul]

In most cases, I am not aware of what I feel. I once read there's a term to it: "Alexithymic". Or maybe the repression is so deep that I'm really not aware of what I feel.

Sorry, I am a bit of Johny come late on this thread, but I think this would quite clearly exclude INFJ and probably other feeling types as well. I am a heavily Ne subtype INFJ, and yet I have never experienced any lack of feelings.

When I was in college, I remembered I tested INFJ in an MBTI test. Somehow I doubted it, because I knew I wasn't a feeling type. But then I realized I was becoming more in touch with my emotions during that time, trying to understand its mechanisms (my psychology class required us to). I think it was the reason why I scored an F there. When the class ended, most of my subsequent tests all had T results. As much as I've developed my F to the point where I've attained quite a bit of competency to it, I will always choose T because it's what I feel most comfortable using. Even now, when I’ve learned to be very empathetic and compassionate, I still have moments where it's a struggle to access my feelings.

This experience of not having acces to feelings seems to be characteristic of INTPs and ISTPs in particular. It fits with the socionics theory too. Often descriptions confuse compassionate and responsible behavior with being a feeling type, when in fact there is not that much correlation.

Do you identify with Paul James INTP description?

http://www.intp.org/intprofile.html

He describes an INTp, intuitive subtype, but of course everything he says about the functions is false. Focus on the thinking processes and actual behaviour of that INTP.

Yes. Surprisingly, all of it.

Yes, INTP seems quite likely then.

[Phaedrus]

I think I’m more of an EP than an IP. Even the walking thing applies to me. I think the IP really manifests when there are a lot of repressed emotions particularly anger. Other than that, I’m EP’ish. Wants to be busy all the time and likes to do many things at once.

That sounds like an EP temperament, yes.

Although I think there is a very, very big chance I’m an INTp, I’m not discounting others’ opinions here, as I know each of you has his or her own expertise and knowledge that might be very helpful to me.

No. You are wrong. There is no longer a very big chance that you're an INTp. If you have an EP temperament you can't be an INTp.

I actually don’t care how I act. I’ve never been self-conscious about myself. I don’t feel awkward in social situations

What you say here is a rather strong argument against INTp.

Yes, I’m very spontaneous. I’m unpredictable, I’m weird, I’m complex. I'm quite definitely a……

MUTANT.

And what you say here, and also how you say it, is an even stronger argument against INTp.

FDG wrote:

You're a clear cut either type 7, or less likely type 3.

May I know what made you suggest that? Was it because of my EP temperament? The INTp descriptions fit me really well also. I think there is a discrepancy to that.

I'm not sure how FDG came to that conclusion, but now I am inclined to agree. That you identified with Paul James's INTP description does not exclude the possibility that you are an ENTp (which now seems the most likely type). An ENTp friend of mine thought that he identified with every part of that description when he was still under the false impression that he was an INTP. That only proves that not even ENTps are immune to having incorrect views about themselves. :wink:

Would it be possible for an INTp to be a 7?

In my opinon, no. Type 7 has an EP temperament. If you are a 7 you are probably an ENTp, and if you are an ENTp you are probably a 7 ... which you probably are, since you are probably not an INTp ... unless you don't have an EP but an IP temperament ...

Or maybe I’m just a healthy 5w4 so I’m moving towards the healthy manifestations of a 7 (disintegration) and 8 (integration)?

But every 5w4, or at least every INTp, has an IP temperament. So, in that case you are wrong about your EP temperament.

I think I’m really 50/50 when it comes to I/E dichotomy. I get energized when I’m with people; I also get energized when I’m by myself. I think the withdrawal thing I'm doing just intensifies the I right now. But in some cases, I’m also at my happiest when I’m with a group having fun.

That suggests that you are an extravert. Some ENTps think that they are introverts; I have seen that more than once in real life ENTps.

If I and E can be reconciled, can I then say I’m an ambivert? That I can be an ENTp and INTp?

No. I and E can't be reconciled like that. ENTps and INTps have clearly different ways of thinking. You can't be both, and you can't be a mixture of those two types.

I think I’m more of an INTp, but I know I can turn into an INTj very easily.

No, you can't. You can't change your type (though Smilingeyes might disagree, of course ...).

Can you please explain more of the one in bold letters?

ENTjs are very enthusiastic when starting new projects sometimes becoming so passionate that they can forget about everything else. They normally start small, gradually working their way up to bigger things. They can work very hard and extremely quickly, often working on many tasks simultaneously. ENTjs like to figure out and try many things. They are not the sort of people who blindly believe in phenomena that cannot be proved, for example UFOs, telekinesis and ESP. They are often very curious and dynamic people often experiencing a great variety of occupations during their lifetimes. They are always experimenting and sometimes get involved in projects that others started but couldn't finish.

All of that is consistent with being an ENTp with an EP temperament.

As I said, that suggests INTp, intuitive subtype for you.

Yes, that’s the closest fit that I can think of right now.

And now it's time to question that suggestion. It might be false.

I’m also quite 50/50 with my P and J. This explains the confusion…

Hm ... INTps are probably more likely to score 50/50 on J/P than ENTps, who should be more clearly P types, but I don't consider that a strong argument.

I think that I’m a P, although I’ve learned to strengthen my J because I had to. Very big difference.

Almost everything that you have said about yourself so far, strongly suggest that you are a P type. It is almost impossible for me to imagine you being a J type, and you are definitely not an INTj.

[Arfael]

In most cases, I am not aware of what I feel. I once read there's a term to it: "Alexithymic". Or maybe the repression is so deep that I'm really not aware of what I feel.

Sorry, I am a bit of Johny come late on this thread, but I think this would quite clearly exclude INFJ and probably other feeling types as well. I am a heavily Ne subtype INFJ, and yet I have never experienced any lack of feelings.

When I was in college, I remembered I tested INFJ in an MBTI test. Somehow I doubted it, because I knew I wasn't a feeling type. But then I realized I was becoming more in touch with my emotions during that time, trying to understand its mechanisms (my psychology class required us to). I think it was the reason why I scored an F there. When the class ended, most of my subsequent tests all had T results. As much as I've developed my F to the point where I've attained quite a bit of competency to it, I will always choose T because it's what I feel most comfortable using. Even now, when I’ve learned to be very empathetic and compassionate, I still have moments where it's a struggle to access my feelings.

This experience of not having acces to feelings seems to be characteristic of INTPs and ISTPs in particular. It fits with the socionics theory too. Often descriptions confuse compassionate and responsible behavior with being a feeling type, when in fact there is not that much correlation.

Do you identify with Paul James INTP description?

http://www.intp.org/intprofile.html

He describes an INTp, intuitive subtype, but of course everything he says about the functions is false. Focus on the thinking processes and actual behaviour of that INTP.

Yes. Surprisingly, all of it.

Yes, INTP seems quite likely then.

Yeah, I also think I'm not an INFj. You just validated it. Thanks for your input.

[Arfael]

Phaedrus wrote:

No. You are wrong. There is no longer a very big chance that you're an INTp. If you have an EP temperament you can't be an INTp.

Ok. I'll try to read more about ENTp to see if it fits more. Thanks for your help (you're probably sick and tired of me thanking you).

[Phaedrus]

Ok. I'll try to read more about ENTp to see if it fits more. Thanks for your help (you're probably sick and tired of me thanking you).

Your welcome. Thanks for thanking me. That's nice of you, but you don't have to do it. I'm curious to find out which type you will turn out to be.

[Expat]

First, the "reality" are the different types, and their relationships -- those are what we actually observe. Functions, Quadras, Reinin Dichotomies, etc, are attempts to explain how the types originate and how exactly they make the relationships work like that. So, for instance, the same behavioral traits can be explained as being due to one function, or another, or a combination of Reinin Dichotomies, or simply as a consequence of the temperament.

...

The functions, being theoretical constructs, can't ever be objectively measured in isolation, especially as everyone agrees that, say, accepting Te is different from creative Te in the ego and that it works differently if paired with Ni or Si. And so on and so forth.

This for me is the root of my incertitude in Socionics. If we consider that these processes/preferences/what have you that we have designated as "functions" are admittedly approximations and heuristic devices, we need to extend this qualification to the larger manifestations (that is, types, intertype relations, etc.). It just does not make sense that we can admit that the functions are merely theoretical constructs, and yet the sixteen types must be hard and fast "rules" of reality.

A comment -- what I meant is simply that "reality" are differenty types of people and different types of relationships, not necessarily that the 16 types are "reality". The 16 types are also theoretical constructs, just like the 9 types of the Enneagram.

People have different psychologies, and that affects their relationships. This much can be called "observable reality". The number 16, the functions, etc, all of those can be called theoretical constructs.