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Thread: Illusionary is the worst

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    Default Illusionary is the worst

    The Ignoring function is our resource accumulation and preservation function. The socionics IR chart overlooks the nature of Illusionary: it’s warfare for resources in the guise of pride and laziness but it can easily turn into open warfare even. In the case of sensors, the resources are material so the confrontation can become physical. Any free association relationship between Illusionary partners is going to be marked by paranoia and resentment in the long run.
    Sicuramente cercherai il significato di questo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusal View Post
    The Ignoring function is our resource accumulation and preservation function. The socionics IR chart overlooks the nature of Illusionary: it’s warfare for resources in the guise of pride and laziness but it can easily turn into open warfare even. In the case of sensors, the resources are material so the confrontation can become physical. Any free association relationship between Illusionary partners is going to be marked by paranoia and resentment in the long run.
    I like to see illusionary as deceptive duality. It draws you to them and points you to a dual. But in the long run you realize that your partner is an illusionary oasis. But they help you bridge the gap between you and your duals, because illusionary partners have easier understanding in the beginning than duality due to strong leading and ignoring functions
    I see potential relationships everywhere

    If I could ask for anything impossible, that would definitely to talk to every human being ever born

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    Not worst but the most unsatisfying if you want to break together free from something in mutual understanding. It is not going to happen. Probably good if life circumstances allow it.
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    >The Ignoring function is our resource accumulation and preservation function.

    The main resources are in _weak_ functions. Their energy exists but is not under good conscious control. Activation of superid gives this energy by best way. Also it's regions where most problems exists and fixing them to social normas (at least) would give the best addition to overal productivity.

    While if to take a simpler approach in your abbility to get most quality data about the reality, to study the most and then to use it as a resource - it's leading function. "Ignoring" one has lesser of conscious interest and such has lesser of useful data (worse practical skills, for example).

    P.S.
    Your predisposition to strange typology views should be reduced after correct understanding of own type which is doubtful to be SEI. And of types of people important for you.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Mirage should be easy to deal with because there’s less expectations. Both parties know something is missing but there’s ease in getting along to the point it’s functional on a day to day basis. If you’re delusional and expect more than what’s right there then of course, anything would be as terrible as you make it sound, and that goes beyond socionics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    >The Ignoring function is our resource accumulation and preservation function.

    The main resources are in _weak_ functions. Their energy exists but is not under good conscious control.
    I don’t see how you’re wrong.

    Now, back to the ignoring function. We’re bound to think of the rival of our lead function as questionable. An attitude that facilitates fighting over resources with absolute self-righteousness. How convenient. An ESTp can ‘conquer’ space whereas an ISFp will be more mindful, more retiring. Such unbecoming behaviour from the ESTp, if too pronounced, will be questioned and resisted so as not to be completely steamrolled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    >P.S. Your predisposition to strange typology views should be reduced after correct understanding of own type which is doubtful to be SEI. And of types of people important for you.
    There is nothing in what I’ve ever written that contradicts SEI. Stop that.
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    It's like a ghetto duality

    Kinda like workin out in da hood, you don't got any gym equipment lyin around, so you gotta resort to liftin trash cans





    It gets the job done, but it's just ghetto
    Last edited by peteronfireee; 11-30-2020 at 12:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    It's like a ghetto duality

    Kinda like workin out in da hood, you don't got any gym equipment lyin around, so you gotta resort to liftin trash cans





    It gets the job done, but it's just ghetto
    Or is this rational version of it? They are actionwise motivated but I'm not so sure about irrationals who are likely to give whatevers.
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    >illusionary is the worst
    >doesn't actually know his/her or the other person's correct type
    >makes assumptions based on ITR
    >many other reasons possible including being mentally unhealthy and unaware of it


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    My childhood best friend is ESI. She helped me grow, expand my mind, and showed me the value of individual expression.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    >illusionary is the worst
    >doesn't actually know his/her or the other person's correct type
    >makes assumptions based on ITR
    >many other reasons possible including being mentally unhealthy and unaware of it
    I’d sooner assume incompatibility in the DCNH system than what you wrote. Not everyone is unaware of themselves, shotgun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusal View Post
    I’d sooner assume incompatibility in the DCNH system than what you wrote. Not everyone is unaware of themselves, shotgun.
    The DCNH system is considered official valid socionics. I didn't write it, I just quoted it from a socionics book.

    I had 0 idea I was LSI for example. Most ppl aren't self aware enough or knowledgeable enough to determine their own types, let alone someone else's. One would need to be a trained socionist and even then mistakes can be made. The other problem is validity of duality. Theoretically it makes sense, but in practice I have seen stuff like SLE women not enjoying the idea of a IEI man, because "he is weak" and other things that make sense outside of socionics in terms of evolutionary biology.

    I could not get along with self typed EIE either despite commonalities. To think one is different or special and can manage all of this flawlessly.. is to be deluded. there can be many other factors that interfere EVEN if one gets the types right.

    Imo its just not something one can reliably predict relationships with. You are better off using relationship styles or just going with your own best judgment.

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    I place illusionary on par with semi-dual in the sense that they have equal potential of being able to work together toward common goals without trampling over each other's pasture and having ego duels; there will be some but they seem to easily find compromises because they're usually interested in playing different roles. To see real pasture trampling and destructive duels, one should observer mirrors.

    a.k.a. I/O
    Last edited by Rebelondeck; 11-30-2020 at 06:44 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    The DCNH system is considered official valid socionics. I didn't write it, I just quoted it from a socionics book.
    What I meant is that complications in a seemingly neutral IR could be due to incompatibility in DCNH. I have no reason to believe there is any mistype and neither did you but for whatever reason you decided to go with a mental health angle. I agree with the rest of what you wrote, but even if you can look back at ungrounded assumptions you held before being professionally typed, keep in mind that others might’ve come to the same realizations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusal View Post
    What I meant is that complications in a seemingly neutral IR could be due to incompatibility in DCNH. I have no reason to believe there is any mistype and neither did you but for whatever reason you decided to go with a mental health angle. I agree with the rest of what you wrote, but even if you can look back at ungrounded assumptions you held before being professionally typed, keep in mind that others might’ve come to the same realizations.
    Yeah, you are right. I think a recent odd relationship has affected my judgment tbh, which is why I went off on the mental health angle. Imo its important, maybe its because I'm old or have seen this too many times at this point... but I absolutely reject not only romantic partners, but even friends based on the mental health angle. I don't seem to have the patience or tolerance lvl anymore to deal with ppl on that lvl nor attempt to fix or help them.. prefer to just get away asap. Too many highly negative experiences I'd rather never repeat. Its a kind of "I already know where this leads and I don;t want to go there.."

    So ITR even if one gets the types right doesn't seem to be worth it imo. There are so many other problems...

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    The DCNH system is considered official valid socionics. I didn't write it, I just quoted it from a socionics book.

    I had 0 idea I was LSI for example. Most ppl aren't self aware enough or knowledgeable enough to determine their own types, let alone someone else's. One would need to be a trained socionist and even then mistakes can be made. The other problem is validity of duality. Theoretically it makes sense, but in practice I have seen stuff like SLE women not enjoying the idea of a IEI man, because "he is weak" and other things that make sense outside of socionics in terms of evolutionary biology.

    I could not get along with self typed EIE either despite commonalities. To think one is different or special and can manage all of this flawlessly.. is to be deluded. there can be many other factors that interfere EVEN if one gets the types right.
    There is one SEI in neighborhood who gets all worked up when he sees me outside trying to do something and realizes the challenge looks very Te. I won't let challenges easily slide once I have started. It is futile to try.

    So yeah magic of duality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    Yeah, you are right. I think a recent odd relationship has affected my judgment tbh, which is why I went off on the mental health angle. Imo its important, maybe its because I'm old or have seen this too many times at this point... but I absolutely reject not only romantic partners, but even friends based on the mental health angle. I don't seem to have the patience or tolerance lvl anymore to deal with ppl on that lvl nor attempt to fix or help them.. prefer to just get away asap. Too many highly negative experiences I'd rather never repeat. Its a kind of "I already know where this leads and I don;t want to go there.."

    So ITR even if one gets the types right doesn't seem to be worth it imo. There are so many other problems...
    I never had any patience nor motivation to change people or fix them. I think that stems from having unvalued, low dimensional Fi. I’ve “rescued” people both literally (was a junior lifeguard) and figuratively (listened to people’s problems and given them pragmatic suggestions on how to sort it out) but not ever fix others.

    Duality is a theory that supposes it’s a great match that you put your weakest functions into someone who also puts their weakest functions on you. It doesn’t take into account that people often times don’t realistically assess their suggestive. My dual’s suggestive is not the same and will never be on equal footing as my lead function, same with my suggestive and their lead. The reality is, the suggestive will never matter more than the lead function and everything goes back to lead function’s priorities and scope. That’s why opposites “can attract” but “birds of a feather stick together.” Types get along better when the functions have more in common, but that goes beyond socionics, and just is common sense. People go dual hunting hoping to find that unicorn that’ll be the answer to their life’s quest but real relations is much more complex than that which isn’t explained by any theory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    The DCNH system is considered official valid socionics. I didn't write it, I just quoted it from a socionics book.

    I had 0 idea I was LSI for example. Most ppl aren't self aware enough or knowledgeable enough to determine their own types, let alone someone else's. One would need to be a trained socionist and even then mistakes can be made. The other problem is validity of duality. Theoretically it makes sense, but in practice I have seen stuff like SLE women not enjoying the idea of a IEI man, because "he is weak" and other things that make sense outside of socionics in terms of evolutionary biology.

    I could not get along with self typed EIE either despite commonalities. To think one is different or special and can manage all of this flawlessly.. is to be deluded. there can be many other factors that interfere EVEN if one gets the types right.

    Imo its just not something one can reliably predict relationships with. You are better off using relationship styles or just going with your own best judgment.
    When people hear their dual described, it can sound weak depending on how the person is described (vague negatives, rather than realistic portrayal, etc). 'They aren't anything like you, and they are terrible at everything you're great at'. Well of course that sounds weak.

    When people meet confident duals irl, I almost always see profound attraction between them and respect. And it's fascinating when the male is IEI and the SLE woman you're friends with clearly thinks he's a hot, reasonable, wise, strong person. If an IEI male did,for instance, come off as weak irl to their dual, it might only be based on that IEI acting like he lacked confidence in his being accepted due to his not matching a preconceived idea of how a male can ONLY behave.They turn into Ugly Ducklings. But generally people that are not concerned about matching some limited social conflation of one TIM and their biological sex do well with duals, ime.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    I had 0 idea I was LSI for example. Most ppl aren't self aware enough or knowledgeable enough to determine their own types, let alone someone else's. One would need to be a trained socionist and even then mistakes can be made.
    I think that the mistake people make is that they go into details and descriptions too soon. Instead of just observing how you react to the presence of certain functions and derive your type that way. Stay close to the actual real-life phenomenon.

    The other problem is validity of duality. Theoretically it makes sense, but in practice I have seen stuff like SLE women not enjoying the idea of a IEI man, because "he is weak" and other things that make sense outside of socionics in terms of evolutionary biology.
    Duality is a fact. But you are right that there are cases like you describe. But socionics does not grasp the full complexity of relationships. How could it? Its only focus is on the type and its impact.

    I could not get along with self typed EIE either despite commonalities. To think one is different or special and can manage all of this flawlessly.. is to be deluded. there can be many other factors that interfere EVEN if one gets the types right.
    yes, and that's why one has to meet many duals.

    Imo its just not something one can reliably predict relationships with. You are better off using relationship styles or just going with your own best judgment.
    I don't agree with this. You can predict relationships within certain limits. The pattern emerges when you have met enough people while knowing your type.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    I place illusionary on par with semi-dual in the sense that they have equal potential of being able to work together toward common goals without trampling over each other's pasture and having ego duels; there will be some but they seem to easily find compromises because they're usually interested in playing different roles. To see real pasture trampling and destructive duels, one should observer mirrors.

    a.k.a. I/O
    i thought mirrors was a good ITR. Never heard of dueling

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    Quote Originally Posted by calm View Post
    i thought mirrors was a good ITR. Never heard of dueling
    Mirrors tend to inhabit the same pastures so they get plenty of opportunity to butt heads and or tread on each others toes; they often develop resentment toward one another because their priorities and ways of doing things are so different. Mirror is a good analogy where one goes left while the other thinks right is best; they don't often agree on a common direction even when the goal is obvious. Initially, they can have the hots for one another but this can wear thin quickly when they embark on joint ventures where the outcomes are very important to both.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by calm View Post
    i thought mirrors was a good ITR. Never heard of dueling
    Careful. Mirrors is mixed bag.

    I think the problem with Mirror is you take your Mirror for granted. Unlike Duality or Mirage, it's not even attraction or understanding, it’s just that you're so similar you can't even compute them not being you. For example, you don't value your Mirror because you don't feel the need to prove anything to them but you also don't care about anything they have to offer, either. You kind of feel the need to compete like you would with a twin, but then again each feels like even the competition is pointless. Mirror relations feel like they're “going nowhere” because there’s no need. You’re both equal in abilities of the same functions and serve as each other’s qualified critic so if there’s anything, it’s a lot of potential mutual dismissal/mistrust that arises. Mirror relations only work when there's plenty of other “distractions”, like in a social circle or business venture (depending on what quadra they're in) to keep them from going at each other's throats.

    The bottom line is, people wildly self-mistype and then they try to match up the ITR to further give confirmation of their type even when the relations would actually invalidate their self-type. This distorts understanding of socionics on multiple levels.

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    Illusionary isn't too bad. I'm constantly surrounded by my illusionary as something about me initially appeals to them I suppose but it's just annoying when you have to work closely together. Casually speaking it's fine. Can name several types more annoying to deal with in a casual or even business setting than my illusionary.

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    I think feeling physically unsafe/dangerous tension with an illusionary is a not-type related thing cuz I don't really relate to that- there can be this social uncomfortable-ness tho kinda where you are comfortable because it's dual-like in a crippled way- but also not comfortable (socially, not physically) because you realize it's not duality. And you both want the other to be the dual because the demonstrative function tanking your polr draws you both in but then realize that the other person is not the dual. (que the baby dinosaur hitting the dad on the head with frying pan.)

    Not a literal frying pan tho. No ILE male has ever threatened me before physically like that and to be honest, I could probably beat them up even tho I'm just a marshmallow IEI. I don't see the physical thing at all myself but hmm. I guess I'm morbidly curious now. The type I would say would enjoy physically torturing me the most would probably be a cough "unhealthy" ILI or LSE republican str8 male. Or a really zealot/fanatical enneagram 1 female EII that worked for the Illuminati Reptile Demons.

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