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Thread: ESIs and Sadism

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    Red face ESIs and Sadism

    Generally speaking, the aggressor aspect of ESIs is not frequently talked about in the Socionics community, and according to the Oldham site, LIEs are portrayed as sadistic instead. Even the overgeneralized (and sometimes plain wrong) description of the "strict disciplinarian" have very little to do with being an aggressor. This is odd considering how other aggressors are portrayed even in real life, but since the majority of LIEs are male, maybe this played a role as well.

    However, the thing I noticed with ESIs is that they seem to enjoy it and smile when someone is hurt emotionally or showing vulnerability. I don't completely understand it, but I imagine it's a typical aggressor characteristic, and it can be quite seductive sometimes.

    Have you guys witnessed it before?
    Do you have insight into that kind of behaviour?
    What are some other aggressor characteristics seen in ESIs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Surreal View Post
    Generally speaking, the aggressor aspect of ESIs is not frequently talked about in the Socionics community, and according to the Oldham site, LIEs are portrayed as sadistic instead. Even the overgeneralized (and sometimes plain wrong) description of the "strict disciplinarian" have very little to do with being an aggressor. This is odd considering how other aggressors are portrayed even in real life, but since the majority of LIEs are male, maybe this played a role as well.

    However, the thing I noticed with ESIs is that they seem to enjoy it and smile when someone is hurt emotionally or showing vulnerability. I don't completely understand it, but I imagine it's a typical aggressor characteristic, and it can be quite seductive sometimes.

    Have you guys witnessed it before?
    Do you have insight into that kind of behaviour?
    What are some other aggressor characteristics seen in ESIs?
    'seem to enjoy it and smile when someone is hurt'....That's not a sign of health and maturity in anyone, including ESI people.

    Passive aggressive, etc.

    Not all ESI are going to behave like that.

    'Showing vulnerability'...that part might be due to appreciating when people are open or sensitive.



    The really shitty part about these clumsy romantic style caricatures is that they are taken so literally. A lot of socionics community

    members wish the romantic natures of the types hadn't been named with such wild and dramatic labels. People whose attention is on perceiving the

    physical world and the externalities of objects (Se) aren't rapist-like. People whose attention is on the internalities of objects and the sensations

    humans experience when engaging those objects (Si) are not child predators, and intuitives aren't the respective victims of these other two groups, nor

    do the intuitives 'like it if they're preyed on.' If you're watching an open-minded Ne type who always suggesting alternatives and a Si type who's so

    grounded in sensation realities, you can come up with SO many metaphors. Same with the other set. The metaphor fails when you don't see Ni and Ne

    types as active and, instead, caricature them as harassed or as underage.


    ESI and LSI can have a 'call them on their bullshit' attention to detail/coaching quality that supports EIE and LIE. It's not felt as aggressive. With 4D Ne and with their ability to be directive and charming, XIE need the current realities attended to BECAUSE if someone isn't redirecting our attention to the CURRENT physical world, XIE can be referring to our mental FFWD version of a possible reality.

    ESI and LSI have a firmness to them that helps XIE when they emphasize the present.

    In healthy ESI and LSI it's not cruel. And it can even (given some practice) be really fucking polite...like when a quiet logistics person pulls aside an executive to point out the level of resources/supplies.

    XSI are worried about the future and transitions.

    The two groups assist each other. The realists/tacticians empower the predictive/pattern-aware and vice versa.

    I have seen Se types smile at intuitives when they are surprised that the intuitives are not looking at the world in a Se way. THAT might be what

    you're describing. It's not always mocking, though. It can be sort of a surprised smile.
    Last edited by nanashi; 12-06-2020 at 06:41 PM.
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    In general sense, a sadism is kind of aggressive behavior with an aim to make a pain or a harm. In this it's not related to concrete types.
    Some types may have more predisposition or lesser. ESI prefer when people feel emotionally good (Fi), so they lesser behave with primary sadistic emotional motivation. While Fe types should do it the most - they are accented on emotions and have Fi nonvalued.

    Se types like to control on physical level, what is not about emotions. Though, secondary, a more a human follows to your decisions when he does not like the process - this shows more control above him. Also Se types easier ignore nonvalued Si - need in pleasant sensations and cofmort, so easier ignore a pain and may offer this attitude to other people. They more often have sexual games with a pain (as, for example, pain stimulates endorphines production). This all is secondary to sadism - the aim is another.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    My ESI-Fi friend, back when we were in junior high, was obsessed with horror animes and really liked the violence and gore. the joke was that she was secretly a psychopath.. she's a very normal person though.

    My ESI-Se mom likes to make my dad "suffer for love" (running joke) as in she rejects his small advances or says she loves everyone but doesn't mention him or kisses everyone but goes "no, none for you" .. then my dad feigns hurtness but she won't change her mind.. but it's not mean-spirited. otherwise, one of her catchphrases when someone does someone stupid is "go slap yourself". Oh and she loves watching romance shows/movies where the guy goes through a lot of suffering for the gal. She starts giggling in a slightly maniacal way. She's very "tough love".

    They and their actions aren't genuinely sadistic, but I hope you can see how the actions have a slightly sadistic-like bent to them. I think it's a mistake to take aggressor=sadistic and in general, the romance styles, very literally or even moderately literally.
    Last edited by chocolatte; 11-28-2020 at 03:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    My ESI-Fi friend, back when we were in junior high, was obsessed with horror animes and really liked the violence and gore. the joke was that she was secretly a psychopath.. she's a very normal person though.

    My ESI-Se mom likes to make my dad "suffer for love" (running joke) as in she rejects his small advances or says she loves everyone but doesn't mention him or kisses everyone but goes "no, none for you" .. then my dad feigns hurtness but she won't change her mind.. but it's not mean-spirited. otherwise, one of her catchphrases when someone does someone stupid is "go slap yourself". Oh and she loves watching romance shows/movies where the guy goes through a lot of suffering for the gal. She starts giggling in a slightly maniacal way. She's very "tough love".

    They aren't sadistic, but I hope you can see how these actions have sadistic-like qualities.

    I think I have dated an ESI-Se e6 who acted like she wanted the guy to suffer for her love. I've read this as being a characteristic of ESI's, but I haven't found it to be generally true; more like it's true of a certain flavor of ESI.

    In retrospect, I'd say that the woman I dated had fairly low self-esteem. She owned her own business and I admired her for that, but whenever we'd talk about the possibility of going out together, she'd start asking me questions about my status with other, random women, as if she couldn't tolerate a hint of competition.
    We went on one date a couple years ago and I really liked her, but she refused to go out with me again, saying that she understood that I liked her romantically but the feeling was not mutual. Nevertheless, she continued to contact me from time to time, and could be quite flirty at times. Not in person, but over the phone where it was safe.
    I recently helped her with some advice on a job and when she came over to drop off some plants in my compost bin, I again asked her out. She said in a teasing voice that I'd have to bribe her. I told her I'd pay for lunch. She stood a little taller and asked me if I still thought she was fat. (This was a reference to my statement, years ago, that all the women I've dated have been really thin, which she, in her "I'm sure you hate me" mindset, took to mean that I thought she was fat, which is not what I said.) I told her she looked fine. I suddenly felt like I was in the description of ESI-LIE relationships that said that LIE's are supplicating knights to the ESI princess, which I can actually relate to, somewhat.
    At this point, she glowered at me, with a look that someone would give to a person who just did something despicable but was out of that person's control, and she said she'd let me know when we could go out to lunch. Then she left.
    That was two weeks ago and I've not heard a word from her, and I don't expect to.

    Her ESI-ness is clearly attracted to my LIE-ness, but that's where the attraction ends. Somehow, she's looking for a guy who is more malleable than I am, more submissive. An LIE-Ni, perhaps. Certainly not an LIE e8.

    She has some kind of screwed up push/pull thing going, where she feels she isn't good enough for anyone but still wants to be in control and dominate them. This isn't sadism, but neither is it anything that I want to participate in long-term.

    This thread really puzzled me. I've know people who enjoyed hurting other people, some just occasionally, some consistently, but none of them have been ESI's.

    I agree with @Sol when he says that sadism is not type-related. Well, not exactly type-related. ENTj's are said to be sadistic.

    From https://www.the16types.info/info/types/ENTJ.htm
    Disorder Perspective


    The personality disorder which is a pathological representation of the Agressive personality type is the Sadistic Personality Disorder.

    Basic belief: I need power over others. Thinking strategy Sadism.


    I used to think that LIE's were not sadistic, but I've since modified my opinion to think that some LIE's can be sadistic, sometimes.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 11-28-2020 at 03:11 AM.

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    The ESI I knew well seemed to sort of enjoy when people "got what was coming to them," like if they blatantly transgressed she found satisfaction in seeing them get a comeuppance, but was subtle about it. She's actually very gentle and I've never seen her take pleasure in someone being harmed. Keep in mind, though, she's Sx-last e9 and that might have something to do with it.

    I think in general they just want to see justice served: do something they see as wrong, you'll be checked. It's only fair. The pleasure comes from that, maybe, rather than actually seeing someone in pain.

    Then again, I only know one ESI very well...

    Also yes, @nanashi, I really dislike the Victim/Aggressor and Infantile/Caregiver terms. I liked your portrayal of the healthy ways these groups can assist each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I think I have dated an ESI-Se e6 who acted like she wanted the guy to suffer for her love. I've read this as being a characteristic of ESI's, but I haven't found it to be generally true; more like it's true of a certain flavor of ESI.

    Her ESI-ness is clearly attracted to my LIE-ness, but that's where the attraction ends. Somehow, she's looking for a guy who is more malleable than I am, more submissive. An LIE-Ni, perhaps. Certainly not an LIE e8.
    On reading your description, she seems like a less mature version of my mother.. who is indeed e6. And yes, she didn't marry a LIE but an ILI-Ni.

    The other ESI I am close with isn't of this flavor at all. She's not very aggressor-like since she's ESI-Fi e4. She has a sweet, more delta-ish view on love IMO. I think the guy she's currently dating is Beta NF. He's the one who initiated. My brief impression of him was that he's victimy, intelligent, and a literature-nerd (not a bad thing). I like him. They've only been together for a bit, so we'll see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    On reading your description, she seems like a less mature version of my mother.. who is indeed e6. And yes, she didn't marry a LIE but an ILI-Ni.

    The other ESI I am close with isn't of this flavor at all. She's not very aggressor-like since she's ESI-Fi e4. She has a sweet, more delta-ish view on love IMO. I think the guy she's currently dating is Beta NF. He's the one who initiated. My brief impression of him was that he's victimy, intelligent, and a literature-nerd (not a bad thing). I like him. They've only been together for a bit, so we'll see.
    Chocolatte, in my experience, a lot of ESI's marry or date ILI's. In fact, when the woman I referred to above and I were on our one, single date, she showed me a picture of her ideal guy. She told me regretfully that he was married. He VI'd ILI.
    I thought, at that moment, that if she thought he was "ideal" and she couldn't see any value in me at all, the guy she was sitting next to, then things were not looking good for the home team. It turns out I was right, but at the time, I didn't have enough information to close that door.

    I also met an ESI-Fi e4. She and I got along remarkably well, and yes, she had a "Delta" feel to her. She had a female friend who is IEI-Fe. They got along fairly well for a few months, then parted in some disastrous way which left each of them hating the other.

    ESI-IEI: This is, generally, a Benefit relationship. It looks pretty good until the Beneficiary proves that they just can't make use of the help the Benefactor is providing.
    ESI-EIE: This is, generally, a Mirage relationship. It survives only as long as the two people engage in vacation-type activities. If they have to depend on each other, it fails right away.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 11-28-2020 at 04:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I think I have dated an ESI-Se e6 who acted like she wanted the guy to suffer for her love. I've read this as being a characteristic of ESI's, but I haven't found it to be generally true; more like it's true of a certain flavor of ESI.

    In retrospect, I'd say that the woman I dated had fairly low self-esteem. She owned her own business and I admired her for that, but whenever we'd talk about the possibility of going out together, she'd start asking me questions about my status with other, random women, as if she couldn't tolerate a hint of competition.
    We went on one date a couple years ago and I really liked her, but she refused to go out with me again, saying that she understood that I liked her romantically but the feeling was not mutual. Nevertheless, she continued to contact me from time to time, and could be quite flirty at times. Not in person, but over the phone where it was safe.
    I recently helped her with some advice on a job and when she came over to drop off some plants in my compost bin, I again asked her out. She said in a teasing voice that I'd have to bribe her. I told her I'd pay for lunch. She stood a little taller and asked me if I still thought she was fat. (This was a reference to my statement, years ago, that all the women I've dated have been really thin, which she, in her "I'm sure you hate me" mindset, took to mean that I thought she was fat, which is not what I said.) I told her she looked fine. I suddenly felt like I was in the description of ESI-LIE relationships that said that LIE's are supplicating knights to the ESI princess, which I can actually relate to, somewhat.
    At this point, she glowered at me, with a look that someone would give to a person who just did something despicable but was out of that person's control, and she said she'd let me know when we could go out to lunch. Then she left.
    That was two weeks ago and I've not heard a word from her, and I don't expect to.

    Her ESI-ness is clearly attracted to my LIE-ness, but that's where the attraction ends. Somehow, she's looking for a guy who is more malleable than I am, more submissive. An LIE-Ni, perhaps. Certainly not an LIE e8.

    She has some kind of screwed up push/pull thing going, where she feels she isn't good enough for anyone but still wants to be in control and dominate them. This isn't sadism, but neither is it anything that I want to participate in long-term.

    This thread really puzzled me. I've know people who enjoyed hurting other people, some just occasionally, some consistently, but none of them have been ESI's.

    I agree with @Sol when he says that sadism is not type-related. Well, not exactly type-related. ENTj's are said to be sadistic.

    From https://www.the16types.info/info/types/ENTJ.htm
    Disorder Perspective


    The personality disorder which is a pathological representation of the Agressive personality type is the Sadistic Personality Disorder.

    Basic belief: I need power over others. Thinking strategy Sadism.


    I used to think that LIE's were not sadistic, but I've since modified my opinion to think that some LIE's can be sadistic, sometimes.
    LIE-Ni can be conciliatory. That's not 'submissive.'
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I think I have dated an ESI-Se e6 who acted like she wanted the guy to suffer for her love.
    It's possibly by reasons far from types.
    A common example, when a human is much attracted by sexual passion and meanwhile do not like much a pair personally, does not trust - feelings are significantly controversial. Negative part of feelings is expressed in a wish to make a harm. The reasons may be not clear in the consciousness.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    You are correct. It is plausible that sadism goes with the other two relations. The main thing is aggression. You can be aggressive or not, and also enjoy aggression or not. This is the main trait of the thing.

    If you are not aggressive, and enjoy aggression, you are victim. That is LIE. As such, Adam Strange must enjoy an aggressive partner. That's basically it.

    Non-agressive partners are supposed to worry more about what the other person is eating and crud. Like, my brother is non-agressive, and he lectures my mother on stuff like food to eat. Mom is infantile, and goes with it. She's put off by gestures of power. I have no idea why she married a victim. She claims to have no idea as well, and I think she forgot. Terrible memory, probably repressed, as she says things on repeat. I can mention this to her, but she'll say noooooo that doesn't happen. Pisses me off.

    But yeah, basically, she's unlikely to get into another relationship, not because she's been 'damaged' as she might claim, although I never talked about this with her, but sexuality is divorced from her nature. It's damn weird. She's either INFj or INTj. Either or, flip the coin.
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    Any type can be into sadism. Have to understand the context of why.


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    Probably sadomasochism. Don't limit it to sadism. Also neither. People can be aggressively masochistic. These people can also be just aggressive. Aggression is the primary trait you're looking at, but they're also supposedly aware as hell of people's social cues. As such, they're gonna probably conform to whatever primarily.

    Hey look it's me again. How many times do I do that, post below myself. Bruh. Situational awareness is lacking.
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    Most of these conjectures are honestly confusing. Any type can be into sadism and/or masochism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I think I have dated an ESI-Se e6 who acted like she wanted the guy to suffer for her love. I've read this as being a characteristic of ESI's, but I haven't found it to be generally true; more like it's true of a certain flavor of ESI.

    In retrospect, I'd say that the woman I dated had fairly low self-esteem. She owned her own business and I admired her for that, but whenever we'd talk about the possibility of going out together, she'd start asking me questions about my status with other, random women, as if she couldn't tolerate a hint of competition.
    We went on one date a couple years ago and I really liked her, but she refused to go out with me again, saying that she understood that I liked her romantically but the feeling was not mutual. Nevertheless, she continued to contact me from time to time, and could be quite flirty at times. Not in person, but over the phone where it was safe.
    I recently helped her with some advice on a job and when she came over to drop off some plants in my compost bin, I again asked her out. She said in a teasing voice that I'd have to bribe her. I told her I'd pay for lunch. She stood a little taller and asked me if I still thought she was fat. (This was a reference to my statement, years ago, that all the women I've dated have been really thin, which she, in her "I'm sure you hate me" mindset, took to mean that I thought she was fat, which is not what I said.) I told her she looked fine. I suddenly felt like I was in the description of ESI-LIE relationships that said that LIE's are supplicating knights to the ESI princess, which I can actually relate to, somewhat.
    At this point, she glowered at me, with a look that someone would give to a person who just did something despicable but was out of that person's control, and she said she'd let me know when we could go out to lunch. Then she left.
    That was two weeks ago and I've not heard a word from her, and I don't expect to.

    Her ESI-ness is clearly attracted to my LIE-ness, but that's where the attraction ends. Somehow, she's looking for a guy who is more malleable than I am, more submissive. An LIE-Ni, perhaps. Certainly not an LIE e8.

    She has some kind of screwed up push/pull thing going, where she feels she isn't good enough for anyone but still wants to be in control and dominate them. This isn't sadism, but neither is it anything that I want to participate in long-term.

    This thread really puzzled me. I've know people who enjoyed hurting other people, some just occasionally, some consistently, but none of them have been ESI's.

    I agree with @Sol when he says that sadism is not type-related. Well, not exactly type-related. ENTj's are said to be sadistic.

    From https://www.the16types.info/info/types/ENTJ.htm
    Disorder Perspective


    The personality disorder which is a pathological representation of the Agressive personality type is the Sadistic Personality Disorder.

    Basic belief: I need power over others. Thinking strategy Sadism.


    I used to think that LIE's were not sadistic, but I've since modified my opinion to think that some LIE's can be sadistic, sometimes.
    I don't see why LIE-Nis would be "more submissive". But yeah, sounds like you were unfortunate enough to meet a mentally unstable person that was on a power trip. Not something that could be properly correlated with one's type. I don't think ESIs in general are looking for "malleable" partners, especially not if they're the woman in the relationship (and i do get that this isn't necessarily what you're trying to imply here, just felt the need to point it out). I understand how the Aggressor romance style (that by default comes with FiSe-s) in conjunction with deep-rooted insecurities & general lack of psychological well-being can manifest as something similar to what you're describing. But it seems to be the exception to the rule.

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    Quote Originally Posted by serenaeva View Post
    I don't see why LIE-Nis would be "more submissive". But yeah, sounds like you were unfortunate enough to meet a mentally unstable person that was on a power trip. Not something that could be properly correlated with one's type. I don't think ESIs in general are looking for "malleable" partners, especially not if they're the woman in the relationship (and i do get that this isn't necessarily what you're trying to imply here, just felt the need to point it out). I understand how the Aggressor romance style (that by default comes with FiSe-s) in conjunction with deep-rooted insecurities & general lack of psychological well-being can manifest as something similar to what you're describing. But it seems to be the exception to the rule.
    I don’t think she was either mentally unstable nor on a power trip. Instead, I think she really, really doesn’t trust men to treat her right. She’s about 44 and has never been married, so she obviously has some problems with either trust or intimacy. Or perhaps the men in her life have been really bad examples of human beings. When we were on that date, she told me that her previous boyfriends had made her feel ashamed of herself. I can’t imagine a guy being that big of a rat, but who knows?

    One problem with dating when you are older is that the normal, stable people are already in relationships because they don’t have problems in this area. This results in the dating pool consisting mostly of the unmarried or multiply-divorced, or people who have serious problems with maintaining a relationship.

    In the case of the woman I described above, I like her, but I’m not sure she likes herself, and this can lead to choosing guys who validate her opinion of herself.


    On dating sites, if I read in a woman’s profile that she’s over 40 and has “never been married but is looking for that great guy to hang out with and watch sunsets and drink champagne from a paper cup” or some such bullshit, I just move on. Her views on reality and fantasy are just too incongruous. I don’t want to be her forty-fifth failed fantasy, or act as her shrink while she can’t figure out why her father didn’t love her.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 12-06-2020 at 12:08 PM.

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    Because of their detached natures, some Ijs and Eps can be inherently ruthless, and I've met more than a few ESIs who were rather cold and calculating. However sadism isn't type related; it requires a certain amount of deviancy or mental dysfunction.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    One problem with dating when you are older is that the normal, stable people are already in relationships because they don’t have problems in this area. This results in the dating pool consisting mostly of the unmarried or multiply-divorced, or people who have serious problems with maintaining a relationship.
    You could also look at people with less "conventional" profiles, which may or may not be correlated to instability. I don't think I could ever get into a relationship with someone overly "normal" (normal in the sense of being conventional, not in terms of mental health and stability). I wouldn't mind finding someone who is kinda "sex, drugs, and rock n roll" in their mindset, though perhaps without the substance abuse. Just the general mindset of it.

    Fact is, if you're looking at dating at a certain age, a large number of people at that age are already in stable relationships, I agree. But I disagree that this makes them stable or desirable. I think it's a mistake to take on a "grass is greener on the other side" mindset. You have very fucked up people in what appear to be stable relationships. And you have good people that don't fall into either category, fucked up or in a stable relationship.

    Did you ever ask yourself if you are looking at the wrong types of profiles? So you think you are LIE, which may very well be true, and that you look at people you have typed as ESIs, and that it hasn't worked out too well at this point. It's possible you got some of these women's types wrong. It's certain to me that if you want to succeed, you need to try a different approach - "insanity is trying the same thing, over and over again, and expecting a different result" - makes sense, but it's nonetheless what the majority of people end up doing, then saying it doesn't work. Well, I know you're older than me, Adam, and I know how annoying it is to get advice from a younger person...I'm not 20 anymore myself, and it gets on my nerves when these young guys give me advice. So that quote is from Einstein, and I try to apply to it my own life...so take it as advice not from me, but from Einstein.

    Peace
    What good is a book that does not even transport us beyond all books?

    ~Nietzsche

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I don’t think she was either mentally unstable nor on a power trip. Instead, I think she really, really doesn’t trust men to treat her right. She’s about 44 and has never been married, so she obviously has some problems with either trust or intimacy. Or perhaps the men in her life have been really bad examples of human beings. When we were on that date, she told me that her previous boyfriends had made her feel ashamed of herself. I can’t imagine a guy being that big of a rat, but who knows?

    One problem with dating when you are older is that the normal, stable people are already in relationships because they don’t have problems in this area. This results in the dating pool consisting mostly of the unmarried or multiply-divorced, or people who have serious problems with maintaining a relationship.

    In the case of the woman I described above, I like her, but I’m not sure she likes herself, and this can lead to choosing guys who validate her opinion of herself.
    I see. That does indeed make sense. I suppose i haven't thought about this as much (older and single people being more likely to be less 'stable' as a result of serial monogamy and all of the disappointments that come with it) since i am quite young. Technically speaking i have, i guess i'm just naturally less likely to take it into account in situations like these because i'm not as exposed to it.

    The Devil's in the details. I still think that some of her behaviour could be described as 'mental instability' (re: i'm not sure she likes herself, and this can led to choosing guys who validate her opinion of herself).

    You could be.. not exactly the picture of mental health (to say the least) & you do not need to simultaneously be a Cluster B dark triad fucker and/or be diagnosed with some kind of PD. Unhealthy behavioural patterns that could be observed in the woman we're discussing' life is something i'd classify as relative psychological fragility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    You could also look at people with less "conventional" profiles, which may or may not be correlated to instability. I don't think I could ever get into a relationship with someone overly "normal" (normal in the sense of being conventional, not in terms of mental health and stability). I wouldn't mind finding someone who is kinda "sex, drugs, and rock n roll" in their mindset, though perhaps without the substance abuse. Just the general mindset of it.

    Fact is, if you're looking at dating at a certain age, a large number of people at that age are already in stable relationships, I agree. But I disagree that this makes them stable or desirable. I think it's a mistake to take on a "grass is greener on the other side" mindset. You have very fucked up people in what appear to be stable relationships. And you have good people that don't fall into either category, fucked up or in a stable relationship.

    Did you ever ask yourself if you are looking at the wrong types of profiles? So you think you are LIE, which may very well be true, and that you look at people you have typed as ESIs, and that it hasn't worked out too well at this point. It's possible you got some of these women's types wrong. It's certain to me that if you want to succeed, you need to try a different approach - "insanity is trying the same thing, over and over again, and expecting a different result" - makes sense, but it's nonetheless what the majority of people end up doing, then saying it doesn't work. Well, I know you're older than me, Adam, and I know how annoying it is to get advice from a younger person...I'm not 20 anymore myself, and it gets on my nerves when these young guys give me advice. So that quote is from Einstein, and I try to apply to it my own life...so take it as advice not from me, but from Einstein.

    Peace
    @Uncle Ave, I'll take advice from young, old, and immortal AI's. I'm agnostic that way.

    I actually have considered the things you've said, and my comments about people over 30 who haven't been in relationships being poor prospects for healthy relationships was meant to be a generality, not a prescription.

    As for me being mis-typed, that is entirely possible. Perhaps Gulenko would call me an LSI, IDK. But my best guess is that I'm LIE and that most, not all, of the people whom I know in real life are typed more or less correctly, insofar as a "correct" typing exists for anyone.

    I will say that the ESI whom I wrote about above is only the second ESI that I've tried to date, and the first one over 40, so I'm not really discouraged by the fact that I'm not falling into ESI's the way you can drive into McDonald's anywhere, any time. I have been talking to a woman I met on Match about six months ago whom I think is an ESI, and she seems to like me. Not as fast as the two LSI's have liked me, but that's fine with me.

    We shall see how things pan out. I'm not in a hurry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by serenaeva View Post
    I see. That does indeed make sense. I suppose i haven't thought about this as much (older and single people being more likely to be less 'stable' as a result of serial monogamy and all of the disappointments that come with it) since i am quite young. Technically speaking i have, i guess i'm just naturally less likely to take it into account in situations like these because i'm not as exposed to it.

    The Devil's in the details. I still think that some of her behaviour could be described as 'mental instability' (re: i'm not sure she likes herself, and this can led to choosing guys who validate her opinion of herself).

    You could be.. not exactly the picture of mental health (to say the least) & you do not need to simultaneously be a Cluster B dark triad fucker and/or be diagnosed with some kind of PD. Unhealthy behavioural patterns that could be observed in the woman we're discussing' life is something i'd classify as relative psychological fragility.
    @serenaeva, I wasn't saying that older people become less stable. What I was talking about relates to Attachment theory, and the idea that in high school, the population consists of about 50% Secure Attachment style, 25% Anxious Attachment, and 25% Avoidant Attachment styles. As time goes on and people meet each other, they hook up and then drop out of the dating pool. Two Secures meet and stick, but two Avoidants never hook up and two Anxious never stick and a Secure and an Avoidant might get together but would break up again.

    Eventually, almost all the Secures are locked up in relationships while the Anxious and Avoidant are still out there in the dating pool. In other words, as time goes on, the good ones are gone from the dating pool.

    It has been estimated that by the time a person is 30, the dating pool consists of only 20% Secures and the 80% rest are Anxious or Avoidant. So if I find a random woman over 30, there is a one-in-five chance that she is secure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    ......As for me being mis-typed, that is entirely possible........
    I had thought that you had more of an EIE-like communication style than a LIE one - mostly because of how you've described relations with your family and ex. Most LIEs that I've met had more of a sharp edge to them (in a competitive lethality sense) - even the older ones.

    a.k.a. I/O
    Last edited by Rebelondeck; 12-06-2020 at 06:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    .
    an aside:

    Your profile pic is my favorite profile pic. That's some visual exquisity
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

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    Quote Originally Posted by nanashi View Post
    an aside:

    Your profile pic is my favorite profile pic. That's some visual exquisity
    Thanks
    What good is a book that does not even transport us beyond all books?

    ~Nietzsche

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    I used to wear a beret for marching band. Good times. Nice color.
    Fixing myself one block at a time.

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    I know a good chunk of people in unhappy relationships.

    I used to be one of them.

    People are in relationships for all sorts of reasons and that they are healthy isn't always why.

    Divorcing has been a great source of joy in my life.

    And many people are currently single if you look at the statistics.

    I ask people if they are against going to counselling, how they feel they've grown following past relationships, etc.

    Honestly, I look at a few relationships and don't find them appealing, so I don't think that it follows that not being in one is a bad sign. Maybe

    the person just has standards that matter to them that their circumstantial opportunities for relationships didn't meet.

    Plus ....if I meet someone in a relationship and I have better chemistry with him than he has with the person he's with, I just sit back and enjoy the success rate of relationships.

    Your chances are good that they exit non-functional relationships, people. Don't lose heart!
    ENTj-Ni sx/so

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    Have you guys witnessed it before?

    Yes, an ESI e6 male (32 years old) comes to mind.
    Actually, all three ESI friends in my life seem to enjoy vengeance where it's due, but I'm not sure that's inherently sadistic.

    In the case of ESI e6, it's more likely a sign of lower stage development or trauma.


    From Loevinger's stages of ego development: "The Self-Protective person has a notion of blame, but he externalizes it to other people or to circumstances....if maintained too long, "an adult who remains here may become opportunistic, deceptive, and preoccupied with control ...naive instrumental hedonism. Although a degree of conceptual cohesion has been reached, morality is essentially a matter of anticipating rewards and punishments (with the motto "Don’t Get Caught")." <Wikipedia>

    In regards to his taking pleasure in the pain of others, this resonated. His LSI brother said that, "ESI is sneaky when he's not the top dog and he's bossy when he can get away with it."

    Do you have insight into that kind of behaviour?

    He suffered a lot in his youth due to severe bullying and he found his way out by attaching to another group of bullies. Power plays were part of survival. He has some dependent behaviors and is sensitive to rejection, but also wishes to dominate & criticize others. So, secret grudges eventually become bursts of passive aggressive behavior. IMO, he has many wonderful characteristics, but has been hurt a lot and projects onto others in subtle, tit for tat ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    I had thought that you had more of an EIE-like communication style than a LIE one - mostly because of how you've described relations with your family and ex. Most LIEs that I've met had more of a sharp edge to them (in a competitive lethality sense) - even the older ones.

    a.k.a. I/O
    I was bullshitting. I’m LIE. But thanks. I’ve always admired EIE’s ability to communicate.

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    I've seen the tit for tat behavior, but that guy wasn't ESI, or if he was, was incredibly broken.
    Fixing myself one block at a time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I think I have dated an ESI-Se e6 who acted like she wanted the guy to suffer for her love. I've read this as being a characteristic of ESI's, but I haven't found it to be generally true; more like it's true of a certain flavor of ESI.

    In retrospect, I'd say that the woman I dated had fairly low self-esteem. She owned her own business and I admired her for that, but whenever we'd talk about the possibility of going out together, she'd start asking me questions about my status with other, random women, as if she couldn't tolerate a hint of competition.
    We went on one date a couple years ago and I really liked her, but she refused to go out with me again, saying that she understood that I liked her romantically but the feeling was not mutual. Nevertheless, she continued to contact me from time to time, and could be quite flirty at times. Not in person, but over the phone where it was safe.
    I recently helped her with some advice on a job and when she came over to drop off some plants in my compost bin, I again asked her out. She said in a teasing voice that I'd have to bribe her. I told her I'd pay for lunch. She stood a little taller and asked me if I still thought she was fat. (This was a reference to my statement, years ago, that all the women I've dated have been really thin, which she, in her "I'm sure you hate me" mindset, took to mean that I thought she was fat, which is not what I said.) I told her she looked fine. I suddenly felt like I was in the description of ESI-LIE relationships that said that LIE's are supplicating knights to the ESI princess, which I can actually relate to, somewhat.
    At this point, she glowered at me, with a look that someone would give to a person who just did something despicable but was out of that person's control, and she said she'd let me know when we could go out to lunch. Then she left.
    That was two weeks ago and I've not heard a word from her, and I don't expect to.

    Her ESI-ness is clearly attracted to my LIE-ness, but that's where the attraction ends. Somehow, she's looking for a guy who is more malleable than I am, more submissive. An LIE-Ni, perhaps. Certainly not an LIE e8.

    She has some kind of screwed up push/pull thing going, where she feels she isn't good enough for anyone but still wants to be in control and dominate them. This isn't sadism, but neither is it anything that I want to participate in long-term.

    This thread really puzzled me. I've know people who enjoyed hurting other people, some just occasionally, some consistently, but none of them have been ESI's.

    I agree with @Sol when he says that sadism is not type-related. Well, not exactly type-related. ENTj's are said to be sadistic.

    From https://www.the16types.info/info/types/ENTJ.htm
    Disorder Perspective


    The personality disorder which is a pathological representation of the Agressive personality type is the Sadistic Personality Disorder.

    Basic belief: I need power over others. Thinking strategy Sadism.


    I used to think that LIE's were not sadistic, but I've since modified my opinion to think that some LIE's can be sadistic, sometimes.
    Yeah I have dated in the past a ESI who was like you describe...not my thing, too complicated. She was in a way appealing but not if you have a full-time job or other stuff to do.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    This thread is interesting.

    Ok, I've had an ESI-Se ex boyfriend in the past. It is not literally sadistic. But it's like soft and quiet outside, but actually he's deeply passionate into action, and sometimes it appears to the outside world as sadistic. Perhaps.

    It's just a matter of perspective I think. Because I remember my colleagues did mention "no, he'll get angry if I do that" or something like that, but I don't see him that way. So all those "sadistic" behaviour everyone sees, I don't think it's a sadism, I never even think it's an anger. He stands up for himself, that's the way I see it, and I like it. And this was before we started dating. We were colleagues for nearly 3 years.

    But in daily life, I was definitely the aggressive one, I would say assertive though. But yes, comparing to myself, he's so soft and quiet.


    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatte View Post
    My ESI-Se mom likes to make my dad "suffer for love" (running joke) as in she rejects his small advances or says she loves everyone but doesn't mention him or kisses everyone but goes "no, none for you" .. then my dad feigns hurtness but she won't change her mind.. but it's not mean-spirited. otherwise, one of her catchphrases when someone does someone stupid is "go slap yourself". Oh and she loves watching romance shows/movies where the guy goes through a lot of suffering for the gal. She starts giggling in a slightly maniacal way. She's very "tough love".
    I can imagine a female ESI-Se like that. When I was travelling a few years ago I met this a girl ESI and we quickly became besties. We're so different though, but actually not different. I agree she's very tough love.


    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I think I have dated an ESI-Se e6 who acted like she wanted the guy to suffer for her love.
    In retrospect, I'd say that the woman I dated had fairly low self-esteem. She owned her own business and I admired her for that, but whenever we'd talk about the possibility of going out together, she'd start asking me questions about my status with other, random women, as if she couldn't tolerate a hint of competition.

    She has some kind of screwed up push/pull thing going, where she feels she isn't good enough for anyone but still wants to be in control and dominate them. This isn't sadism, but neither is it anything that I want to participate in long-term.
    To be honest, I'm not a fan of ESI e6. Low self esteem, this is so true.
    I just can't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Her ESI-ness is clearly attracted to my LIE-ness, but that's where the attraction ends. Somehow, she's looking for a guy who is more malleable than I am, more submissive. An LIE-Ni, perhaps. Certainly not an LIE e8.
    Ho ho not LIE-Ni either.

    If she has to find a dual, she should be with LIE e1.



    Oh, I wanted to add one more thing.
    I have a close friend, female IEI - male ESI couple. They've been together for quite long, more than 5 years. But nowadays the IEI said the ESI can get so judgmental, she's even scared of him sometimes. So they're in a benefit relationship. Not sure as a beneficiary now she proves that she can't make use of the help the ESI is providing. I don't know. But every time she told him "you're so judgmental", I never see it that way. I actually really get what he means and completely agree with what he says, it just makes sense.
    Sometimes the ESI asks me "am I too blunt Scarlett?" Lol and I say "What? No!"
    The ESI and I are pretty close as well, he's in his 50s and very mature.

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    I wouldn't say sadistic. I'd say judgemental and prone to interrogation on private matters, uninvited commentary, and "correction" that is borderline coercive. Like really intense guilt tripping, cornering you for a 1-on-1, etc. Random ESI are fine but my generation is definitely leery of the 2 ESI elder family members. I think there's a part of my uncle that is not satisfied until he has broken through and hit something "real".

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    They are more like wannabe sadists if anything.
    And I'm what you desire, like a siren in the night



    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall
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    Gammas are like this in general. I've also known Betas to be criticized before for being "too nice." I think that's kind of accurate though- as Betas can be really cruel if we feel a person deserves it, but most of the time we're just kind of cherry and normal. ((and get scapegoated for the world's problems that somebody else actually orchestrated.))

    Outsider looking in- most Gamma relationships are too sadistic for me and not enough nice-ness. It's kind of repulsive actually. /morally judges them. But it seems to work for them. I just could never do the trailer park gamma sadism thing.

    SEEs are probably the least sadistic but I don't know about that- they are so manipulatively sadistic at times. I just find them the least sadistic tho because they are my semi-dual and in that quadra it is the best relationship objectively speaking anyway. (and the least one sided as well)

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    I think aggressors could probably be more accurately described as "forward" with their interest in others.

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