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Thread: Impossible combination: Distant, Initial, Ignoring DCNH?

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    Default Impossible combination: Distant, Initial, Ignoring DCNH?

    In trying to identify my DCNH subtype, I keep coming across this issue. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something about these polarities, because by the descriptions in Gulenko's book, I'm clearly Distant, Initial, and Ignoring which is for some reason not an option. I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around this issue. I see that adding a fifth type would make things less symmetrical, but there's still something I'm missing I think.

    I'm most obviously initial, but maybe that's typical of IEE and if I knew more IEEs IRL I'd see that I'm less initial than others of my presumed type? Hard to believe because I'm one of the most "initial" people I know of any type. I lose interest in most things quickly and starting things is always more interesting than finishing. In fact I can think of few projects I've ever completed in my life. I also have untreated ADHD however.

    I'm also clearly Distant, but my anxiety and depression might be clouding that issue. Though if DCNH is not fixed, does it really matter what's causing me to be the way I am? If I was suddenly cured of anxiety and depression and started presenting as more Contact, would my subtype change? Or just be accurately revealed?

    The most confusing one is Ignoring/connecting. I'm leaning towards thinking I'm misunderstanding something about this polarity. At this time in my life at least, I feel that Harmonizing fits me the best, yet it's hard to see myself as Connecting over Ignoring. One thing you'll notice about me if you spend much time with me is how much I completely ignore my environment and anything not of interest to me. I'm very wrapped up in myself most of the time and not concerned with the "environment". But what does he even mean by environment? If I was to take that definition at face value, I would think that Normalizers would be the Connectors and Harmonizers would be the Ignorers, at least if we're talking about what I would consider trivial environmental factors or changes. Normalizers are more nitpickers and Harmonizers are more "head in the clouds", or at least that's how I see it. I would definitely be the latter. I'm somewhat more concerned/connected with other people however and pay some attention to the mood of others and how I relate to them and vice versa. (But I do also have a habit of ignoring other people if they are boring or not adding much to my interest.) Is that more what is meant by connecting? Or is it type dependant?

    Thoughts? ��

    If going by the descriptions in Gulenko's book, I fit H-IEE and C-IEE very well and almost equally, and C-SEI is a close third (I don't identify too much with any other type of SEI however). Honorable mentions kind of in order: N-IEE, C-SEE, C-EII, C-ESE, H-ILE, C-IEI, N-SEE. I don't have much dominance in me at all but I do have a hint of normalizing. The biggest surprise in the descriptions is probably that H-SLI doesn't sound too far off for me though it didn't quite make it into the honorable mentions. It's the only ST type that sounds anything like me. Also somewhat surprising is that no EIE made it into my top 10 despite my last type me thread having several people typing me EIE.
    Last edited by schwiftyrickty; 11-22-2020 at 07:37 PM.
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    if a hypothesis is not correct - you may get anything with it. Gulenko's subtypes have no basis to be trusted
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    You should ignote dcnh
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    I think of it as more fun than anything, not necessarily true.
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    It's only necessary to identify 2/3 of these dichotomies to determine a subtype.

    In your case, you can't be Dominant based on what you say, since you don't fullfill any of the criteria, but you can be C, N, or H.

    I'm guessing looking the dichotomies you resonate with the most (2/3), plus reading the subtype desctiptions themselves, can help.

    Or you can just consult Gulenko himself, like alot of us are doing - but he charges 120 USD, so that's up to you.
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    the subtype is only a part of your psyche and depending on your type it can be quite difficult to figure it out. terminal irrational types and initial rational types can be tricky for example. if you are an initial rational type, you strive for order and structure, but you also switch between interests on a whim and rarely finish things, so you're displaying both traits, same applies for terminal irrational types.

    dominant and normalising types prefer to have order, but if you're a normalising IEE, you still partly display the irrational traits of your type, constantly changing interests for example. you need to compare yourself with people of the same type and notice the differences. a creative subtype IEE will be much more scattered than the normalising IEE.

    normalising subtypes have an extremly narrow way of understanding things, because they lack accentuated Ne. normalising subtypes on this website like sol and FDG will tell you not to bother with the theory because they have difficulties seeing the value in it. DCNH also has to do with genetics and N-subtypes lack accentuated Se to see the subtypes. Dominant subtypes are the strongest, tallest, most self-confident people. you will find them as leaders in big organisations, they won't waste their time browsing an obscure website about a theory that's not efficient (yet).

    contact/distant means how you react in dangerous situations, and by that I mean life threatening situations. contact types won't spend time hesitating about what needs to be done but they will immediatly act, while distant subtypes get anxiety attacks and usually distance themselves from danger. observe how other people react to dangers and you will get an understanding of this dichotomy. normalising subtypes cling to rules to deal with the anxiety, trying to prevent any form of danger in the first place.

    connecting subtypes are always aware of certain changes that might happen in their enviroment. dominant subtypes are especially vocal about that, trying to actively prevent any form of change that doesn't fit their own idea of how the world should be.

    if you really want to know your subtype, I really recommend getting in contact with gulenko and his team. they really know what they are doing. you won't get an answer from the normalising subtypes on this website.

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    Focus on people around you and try to type them by dcnh. That way you learn what the dichotomies are. You need to learn and experience the reality.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dead account View Post
    the subtype is only a part of your psyche and depending on your type it can be quite difficult to figure it out. terminal irrational types and initial rational types can be tricky for example. if you are an initial rational type, you strive for order and structure, but you also switch between interests on a whim and rarely finish things, so you're displaying both traits, same applies for terminal irrational types.

    dominant and normalising types prefer to have order, but if you're a normalising IEE, you still partly display the irrational traits of your type, constantly changing interests for example. you need to compare yourself with people of the same type and notice the differences. a creative subtype IEE will be much more scattered than the normalising IEE.

    normalising subtypes have an extremly narrow way of understanding things, because they lack accentuated Ne. normalising subtypes on this website like sol and FDG will tell you not to bother with the theory because they have difficulties seeing the value in it. DCNH also has to do with genetics and N-subtypes lack accentuated Se to see the subtypes. Dominant subtypes are the strongest, tallest, most self-confident people. you will find them as leaders in big organisations, they won't waste their time browsing an obscure website about a theory that's not efficient (yet).

    contact/distant means how you react in dangerous situations, and by that I mean life threatening situations. contact types won't spend time hesitating about what needs to be done but they will immediatly act, while distant subtypes get anxiety attacks and usually distance themselves from danger. observe how other people react to dangers and you will get an understanding of this dichotomy. normalising subtypes cling to rules to deal with the anxiety, trying to prevent any form of danger in the first place.

    connecting subtypes are always aware of certain changes that might happen in their enviroment. dominant subtypes are especially vocal about that, trying to actively prevent any form of change that doesn't fit their own idea of how the world should be.

    if you really want to know your subtype, I really recommend getting in contact with gulenko and his team. they really know what they are doing. you won't get an answer from the normalising subtypes on this website.
    lol. your mom normalizes your asshole everyday when you cry in your basement.
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    This whole issue is constructed in such way that is extremely fractured and unintelligible and makes it sounds very much not wholesome. So just run with descriptions given by the book.

    So by this I mean following: compare all dominant subtypes together then do the same for creative etc. This is basically the way to understand it as a whole without drowning in details.
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    I've come more and more to the conclusion that DCNH is mostly valuable for C and D subtypes. they understand the theory very fast and are often the ones who initiate social interactions anyway. for creative it seems mostly important to know that they should avoid N subtypes or deal with them in a specific way. gulenko mentioned that normalising subtypes don't really care about his school and he seems to be fine with it. right now he also thinks that people can have two subtypes but I don't really have too many details to share. like some people can be creative-normalising for example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schwiftyrickty View Post
    In trying to identify my DCNH subtype, I keep coming across this issue. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something about these polarities, because by the descriptions in Gulenko's book, I'm clearly Distant, Initial, and Ignoring which is for some reason not an option. I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around this issue. I see that adding a fifth type would make things less symmetrical, but there's still something I'm missing I think.
    I'm distant, initial and ignoring. Gulenko said I'm Harmonizing sub LSI.

    Recommendations were to continue changing the distantness to contactness in order to become a creative subtype.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    I'm distant, initial and ignoring. Gulenko said I'm Harmonizing sub LSI.

    Recommendations were to continue changing the distantness to contactness in order to become a creative subtype.
    You serious? So he does really think that this dcnh Thing constantly Changes (and that's also why i think it cannot be used succesfully).
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    You serious? So he does really think that this dcnh Thing constantly Changes (and that's also why i think it cannot be used succesfully).
    0fc it changes. The DCNH imo is there to explain behavior. Socionists do not type ppl based on behavior. Your cognition aka how you think and process information matters. You can be messier LSE-H, but you'll still have strongest functions Te and Se with EJ temperament for example.

    This is why descriptions kind of suck. Ppl keep reading descriptions and looking for sterotypes instead of understanding Model G or A.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ania View Post
    Because I don’t really understand how one would be “drawn to danger” in an actual life-threatening situation, I’m leaning distant for myself as well. The other two are extremely clear from but c/d isn’t. Oh well it seems I’m the same combo as you then. But creative undoubtedly fits me better. Some normalizing and maybe some harmonizing tendencies, but def not Dominant.

    edit
    initial/completing or whatever that was - I’m much more drawn to starting something and if I had no school/work obligations I would finish much less than I do. I’m scattered - something catches my attention, I become completely obsessed put my all into it, and then it’s something else, on and on. The idea of completing something for the heck of it sounds dreadful, a chore. Heck, the entire normalizing subtype ethos for life feels like a chore to me if I put myself in those shoes I just couldn’t do it.
    ignoring/connecting - I am able to completely ignore sensory or emotional stimuli that would affect or overwhelm some people (from the environment) (such as the intense beeping of fire alarm whose battery is dead - I didn’t change it for months. I slept with it. Somehow lol.) it’s just one example but in general I can absolutely disconnect if I need to. My mind is somewhere else. So I do think what you said about being detached is C not H, because Hs (look at Biden) are very sensitive to the environment they don’t want to cause discord and they are good at ‘manipulating’ it.
    "Danger" is not the right word. its more like you either face problems head on, for example discussing relationship issues openly and honestly.. or you avoid doing so. "Danger" is relative. Avoiding problems is distantness, confronting problems is contactness.

    First polarity: contact/distant
    Contact in the subtype means, first, the willingness to draw closer to a
    problem in the event of stress, accepting the challenge face to face. Distant
    is the avoidance of direct confrontation, a need for distancing from the
    problem’s source. Those people who have contact subtypes, in times of
    stress, are invigorated and excited. When the situation is reverse — for
    example, if a stressful event makes the person freeze or lose their foothold
    — such a person should be categorized as having a clearly distant subtype.

    Harmonizers avoid dealing with problems to keep the peace. Something like this is changeable through cognitive behavioral therapy for example.

    I have been slowly changing it to comtactness, because outside of the issue of ppl not liking me due to being confrontational, disagreeable and critical .. I feel better when I deal with issues head on and get moving, doing plowing through and solving things. Idk how to describe it, kinda like weight being lifted off my back. Being distant is like carrying all that weight on my back all the time.. at some point I want to just drop it lol and I end up in the same place anyway.. so its better to not waste time.
    Last edited by shotgunfingers; 11-24-2020 at 07:58 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ania View Post
    Because I don’t really understand how one would be “drawn to danger” in an actual life-threatening situation,
    Because you must otherwise other people won't do anything and it'll get worse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    0fc it changes. The DCNH imo is there to explain behavior.
    A theory should predict, not just "explain". If DCNH subtypes change constantly according to the environment, they don't tell you anything for example about creating optimal groups of people etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    A theory should predict, not just "explain". If DCNH subtypes change constantly according to the environment, they don't tell you anything for example about creating optimal groups of people etc.
    First polarity: contact/distant
    Contact in the subtype means, first, the willingness to draw closer to a problem in the event of stress, accepting the challenge face to face. Distant is the avoidance of direct confrontation, a need for distancing from the problem’s source. Those people who have contact subtypes, in times of stress, are invigorated and excited. When the situation is reverse — for example, if a stressful event makes the person freeze or lose their foothold — such a person should be categorized as having a clearly distant subtype.

    Second Polarity: terminal/initial
    Under terminal, we understand the capacity for closure, following from the start to the end of a project or relationship, and a tendency to streamline. The initial subtype, as the opposite, has the ability to initiate, to switch easily to a new activity and multitask in things and affairs. This is somewhat like the familiar dichotomy of rationality/ irrationality. However, it would be wrong to think that any rational’s home is kept in order and that he has clear plans, as well as that any irrational discards everything and is weary of planning.

    Third polarity: connective/ignorative
    Basically, this scale represents sensitivity to changes in the external environment. Connective subtypes are very sensitive to such changes, and ignorative subtypes, as the name suggests, don’t pay attention to them.

    Combining these three polarities, we get the following four subtypes:

    • Contact, terminal, connective — dominant subtype (D)
    • Contact, initial, ignorative — creative subtype (C)
    • Distant, terminal, ignorative — normalizing subtype (N)
    • Distant, initial, connective — harmonizing subtype (H)

    Strengthening of Several Functions

    Strengthening of the linear-assertive functions (E & P) — in any type — forms the dominant subtype, whatever position this pair occupies within the sociomodel. These functions reinforce each other on the principle of resonance: excitement (state E) requires work movements (state P), and people moving physically inevitably “start up” emotionally.

    Strengthening of the flexible-maneuvering (flexible-adaptive) functions (I & F) leads to the emergence of the creative subtype. Opportunities intuition (I) simultaneously resonates with force sensing (F). Creative people are rebellious and prone to having the power of originality (and sometimes folly).

    Strengthening of the balanced-stable functions (L & R) creates the normalizing subtype. Structural logic as a set of formal rules is supported by relational ethics, which are guided by informal norms and traditions.

    Strengthening of the receptive-adaptive functions (S & T) develops the harmonizing subtype. These functions are enhanced as pairs because they have similar energy. A state of physical relaxation activates the flight of imagination and vice versa.

    Patterns of Behavior In Autonomous Groups

    The four subtypes listed above were discovered experimentally. This was done by observing the behavior of participants in an autonomous group of four identical types.

    Dominants cope the best, compared to others, with the leader role. Creatives are generators of ideas. Normalizers are the “door- closers” or finishers. Harmonizers are the correctors. The Humanitarian Socionics School (HSS) team checked for the presence of these informal roles in a number of experiments carried out as early as 2006. If the group doesn’t have four, but three people instead, then one person combines two roles. The most successful combinations are leaders and idea generators, and finishers and harmonizers, since they are closer according to energy. Although in life there are many, even the most unbelievable, combinations. If a small group is made up of different types, the distribution of roles starts to be influenced not only by the subtype but by the actual type factors. However, the factor of the “broad” type as evidenced by our observation, at close communication distance is more background than foreground. Subtypes are felt and fixated across behavioral responses on specialized testing conditions. Once in such a situation, the subject was compelled to demonstrate such traits as perseverance or resourcefulness, savvy or tractability. This practical application is only beginning to be established. The primary challenge is the selection of tasks that are equally effective and able to be addressed in any four ways or conversely, clearly specialized according to a solution method.

    Do Subtypes Affect Intertype Relationships?

    Certainly, the subtype’s influence is considerable, especially with extensive close contact in formal environments. The following polarities
    are seen most clearly:
    • By the present leader: symmetrical relationships (equal, without a specific leader) versus asymmetric (unequal requiring a fixed leader)
    • By the relation direction: attractive versus repulsive relations
    • By the place and time of action (additional polarity): sequential relationships versus relationships of parallel actions

    I want to emphasize that the relationship characteristics noted above are not abstractions, but experimentally verifiable concrete parameters.
    Combining these polarities, we get the following picture of compatibility:

    I. Symmetric attractive relationships, conventionally called
    complement subtypes perform the same role as the duality between core
    types. Complementary to each other are dominant and normalizing (D &
    N), as well as creative and harmonizing (C & H). These relationships
    occur between opposite subtypes. Having a harmonizing or soothing
    nature, initially it is difficult, but partners increasingly begin to appreciate
    the advantages of their different roles, which is provided by these
    relationships. The tougher the living conditions, the stronger they become.

    2.Symmetric repulsive relationships, known as subtype identity. Their
    nature — creative competition — arises between identical subtypes.
    Initially this causes a mutual elevation, but in the dyad, eventually
    growing differences and mutual disappointment begins. Serious testing of
    each other’s strengths begins, which these relationships usually won’t
    pass. They are useful for duplication, redundancy, and preparation of
    progeny.

    3. Asymmetric attractive relationships. These are analogical to
    benefit relationships but on the subtype level. Their character includes
    nudging unilateral activation. D-subtype dominates the C-subtype; that
    dominates the N-subtype; normalizing, in turn, dominates the H-subtype.
    Paradoxically, the harmonizing subtype controls the dominant; thereby, the
    circle closes. The included relationships are the main drivers of group
    dynamics.

    4. Asymmetric repulsive relationships. The subtype inhibition
    (similar to relationships of revision). This subtype is characterized by
    control within the framework of one-sided braking. It is opposite in
    direction compared to the subtype benefit relationships. It is also
    beneficial in situations of correcting or fixing errors. Dominant audits
    harmonizing. Harmonizing audits normalizing. Normalizing impedes and
    corrects creative. Creative overrides dominant. And here comes the
    closure of the loop, just in the opposite direction of the vector of subtype
    benefit.

    And now a brief conclusion on relationship specialization between subtypes:
    1. Identical subtypes contribute to overall development and advancement (awareness, training, generation of ideas in their field).

    2. Request (benefit) subtypes are most suitable for social activity,
    intensive work, and overall expansion.

    3. Revision subtypes are specialized for psychological stabilization and balancing dreams and reality; they are best suited for friendship and education.

    4. The dual (complement) subtypes offer physical compatibility (life, everyday communication, and intimate relationships). The next step will
    be distinguishing the eight subtypes. Such an aim becomes realistic when the group grows to seven or eight participants. For the eight subtypes, differentiation of the additional scale primary/secondary is added. It reflects the hierarchy of personal needs. Theoretically, we need to count as many as seven such differentiations (including the three polarities discussed above). But let’s leave the whole spectrum of subtype dichotomies and concentrate on this one for now. Any behavioral type can serve by sequence to primaiy or secondary group needs. Primary needs cover exact, current tasks such as food, health, accommodation, family, intimacy, etc. Secondary needs are higher goals such as career, social status, cognitive and spiritual life tasks, etc.

    Through the experiments, we can see these subtypes taking the specific inner role inthe group of eight identical types:

    • Primary dominating creates the role of Motivator or informal leader while secondary dominating creates the formal leader or Mover role.
    • Primary creativity gives the role of Connector while secondary creativity gives the role of Innovator.
    • Primary normalizing gives the role of the group’s Conscience. Secondary normalizing becomes the Coordinator.
    • Primary harmonizing role leads to Designer while secondary harmonizing becomes the Expert.

    Our socionic school usually defines the octal subtype not bydichotomies, but by one of the eight socionic model functions being strengthened. The pattern is as follows:

    • The strengthened E function forms the demonstrative- artistic behavior. It corresponds to primary dominating through the emotional pressing or the ability to inspire through scare tactics. Primary dominating among animals manifests itself in bright coloring, noisy shouting, and impressive mimics or gestures.
    • The strengthened P function forms persistent behavior. This is secondary dominating, creating business leaders stubbornly and persistently moving toward the goal. Both of these behavior models can often be observed together, combined into a role mask.

    This testifies that dominating is a holistic process, even when being expressed through two different varieties:

    • The amplification of the function F forms an excitable behavior. This is treated as a primary, instinctive creativity. It gives a nonstandard, quick solution in an extreme situation that is critical for survival.
    • Strengthening of the function I forms affective-labile behavior. This is a secondary creativity associated with intellectual fantasy and nonstandard ideas aimed not at getting out of the impasse, but in solving the problems of the future. Both of these functions often work in conjunction as two sides of a single innovation-implementing process:
    • Strengthening of the function R results in alarming and suspicious behavior. This is the primary normalizing, which does not require a formal fixation of rules based on tradition.
    • Strengthening of the function L leads to the formation of formal pedantic behavior. It is secondary normalizing to meet the needs of the group. It is based on regulations, instructions, and official laws. Both of these patterns of behavior can act together, strengthening each other. Conscientiousness and a pedantic attitude to one’s duties are considered two sides of normalizing behavior:
    • Strengthening of the function S leads to the formation of asthenoneurotic behavior. This is the primary, vital harmonization associated with the value of bodily comfort.
    • Strengthening of the function T forms a fenced off and selfimmersive behavior right up to autistic behavior. This is the secondary harmonization of the spiritual-mental level. Both of these models of behavior are equivalent. That is, they often develop together and strengthen each other, such as for the meditation you need to relax the body. If we move further according to our algorithm, then the next step of subtype detail would be broken into 16 subtypes. So far, I’ve only come across them when solving problems of vocational guidance, when it is necessary to select a profession for a person at the intersection of different spheres of activity.
    Last edited by shotgunfingers; 11-24-2020 at 12:41 PM.
    - LSI-H™ - Melancholic - 6w5-8-4 So/Sx - MBTI ISTP - Guardian Inspector ISTJ -

    The way is dark, the road is lost, my eyes they strain to see
    I struggle forth to find a friend to light the way for me
    Oh brothers can you hear my voice or am I all alone
    If there’s no fire to guide my way, then I will start my own!


  18. #18

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    Whoa based on the descriptions, I am distant, terminal, and connecting. Harmonizing and dominant subtypes are out. With people I care about, I force them to talk out the issues because I have a hard time dealing with unresolved tension... It needs to be fixed immediately.

  19. #19

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    I feel like some people think subtypes constantly change depending on your enviroment, but I don't think that's the case. a 5'7 normalising subtype won't suddenly become a dominant subtype. look at all the leaders of big organisations, famous athletes that train like crazy, famous politicians. they are all >6'1 tall. they naturally become the leaders because they have the most energy. subtype changes require a lot of work and dedication and it's extremly difficult to achieve. switching between two subtypes might in theory be possible, but it's probably extremly rare. the reason why DCNH is so important is because they have a very huge influence on IR. if you are in a subtype duality, you might even get along with someone who is not compatible with you on basis of your type. I've seen this very often with male friends who are dominant subtypes who are in supervision or super-ego relationships with normalising girls. even though they argue constantly, it still kind of works. from a biological perspective it makes sense too. from my perspective, women (who are mostly normalising subtypes) unconsciously strive in most cases to find a dominant man. if they don't find a dominant subtype, they will usually settle for another normalising subtype, since this provides them with some form of stability. they will however occassionally make demands that their N-partner behaves more confident and direct.

    to change subtypes, you really need to put in a lot of work. going downwards is easier. let's say you go from C to N. a depression can lead to such a change. going from N to C is much more difficult. it requires for the normalising subtype to actively abandon his routine and predictable life, try out new things, go against his norms of behaviour and against what is expected of him. if a C subtype wants to be D, they need to be more conscientious and bring things to completion, work harder, have more responsibilities etc.

  20. #20
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    I just wanna bump this discussion and say that Gulenko seems to be focusing on only two dichotomies to determine DCNH subtype - contact/distant and terminal/initial.

    Which really makes more sense than having three dichotomies that have to align in some order for four subtypes.
    What good is a book that does not even transport us beyond all books?

    ~Nietzsche

  21. #21

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    it's baseless nonsense and is not Socionics
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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