Ni egos vs Se in close relationship

[grumpyvic81]

Or whatever it is...I noticed all my "close" or at least "close-ish" relationships have been with Ni egos (other than ESIs, they are the only other type). Both Beta and Gamma Ni.

And so when I've known the Ni ego long enough and we got into some track or routine I don't know bc I see this pretty vaguely, and then one day I make a sudden change and I want to ask for something bigger, then there's always this problem, like they try to get around it and won't even discuss but they prefer to try and disappear.

Now I know from my readings of Socionics articles that that's a pattern for such people. Kinda fight the assertiveness and demands and even some aggression with passivity and distancing and disappearing. "Avoid collision with the problematic object" or whatever, lol. Plain avoiding the demand too. Or sometimes outright passive aggression but they like to deny that, more lol...

I mean these conflicts did eventually come to an end one way or the other. Usually it required me upping the anger and aggression or taking enough direct action to the point where they just had to respond, or literally physically couldn't avoid me, and then we got into the discussion & into the conflict properly.

I want to know though from the Ni egos here about how it really works for them.... Is there anything else that works in these cases? Like anything that works faster? Bc I sometimes do have enough of this, lol. Esp don't want it in the truly "close" relationships.

I've also heard it from more than one Ni type that they feel so stressed or overloaded etc etc and to me it always feels like an excuse bc like how can you be so stressed over such a small thing??? To me it's small, lol. The ESIs don't ever make that excuse for sure. Se rocks right?.....

So anyway. Yeah. Is this a real concern for them or it's just an attempt at bullshitting?

[Adam Strange]

Or whatever it is...I noticed all my "close" or at least "close-ish" relationships have been with Ni egos (other than ESIs, they are the only other type). Both Beta and Gamma Ni.

And so when I've known the Ni ego long enough and we got into some track or routine I don't know bc I see this pretty vaguely, and then one day I make a sudden change and I want to ask for something bigger, then there's always this problem, like they try to get around it and won't even discuss but they prefer to try and disappear.

Now I know from my readings of Socionics articles that that's a pattern for such people. Kinda fight the assertiveness and demands and even some aggression with passivity and distancing and disappearing. "Avoid collision with the problematic object" or whatever, lol. Plain avoiding the demand too. Or sometimes outright passive aggression but they like to deny that, more lol...

I mean these conflicts did eventually come to an end one way or the other. Usually it required me upping the anger and aggression or taking enough direct action to the point where they just had to respond, or literally physically couldn't avoid me, and then we got into the discussion & into the conflict properly.

I want to know though from the Ni egos here about how it really works for them.... Is there anything else that works in these cases? Like anything that works faster? Bc I sometimes do have enough of this, lol. Esp don't want it in the truly "close" relationships.

I've also heard it from more than one Ni type that they feel so stressed or overloaded etc etc and to me it always feels like an excuse bc like how can you be so stressed over such a small thing??? To me it's small, lol. The ESIs don't ever make that excuse for sure. Se rocks right?.....

So anyway. Yeah. Is this a real concern for them or it's just an attempt at bullshitting?

Ok, I have Ni in my ego block and while I can't speak for everyone, I can say that I spend a huge amount of time inside my head running future scenarios on present situations.

Sort of like IBM's Deep Blue beating the human chess champions by methodically running every available chess move into it's multiply branching future, 1000 moves in advance.

And every tiny fact matters in projecting the future. "She wore a violet blouse and white shorts on our date. That means she is interested in sex but doesn't have a lot of experience and wants to stay pure for now."

So, @grumpyvic81, your Ni-egos have taken in all the facts that you presented them with, and they have walked a path into the future (now present) with you based on what you presented to them because they see that as an acceptable path, and then you change things and they withdraw.

You may have shown them something that leads to a future that is unacceptable to them.

Which is an elaborate way of saying that they don't want to go there. I don't think they are bullshitting at all. Not at all.

*EDIT*
As for Ni-egos not wanting to discuss the problem and instead, simply disappearing, they by definition have low Se and are not great at real world actions or confrontations. I think that an Ni-ego, once they see that something is not going to work out, consider the problem to be similar to turning a steam locomotive into a cloud of butterflies. Not gonna happen, no point in discussing it, I'm onto some other path now, good luck.

I believe that close relationships are built on each person valuing the things they get from the other person that make their lives better, and ignoring the things that aren't so good. But everyone has a different point at where they draw the line between the tolerable and the intolerable.

[grumpyvic81]

Ok, I have Ni in my ego block and while I can't speak for everyone, I can say that I spend a huge amount of time inside my head running future scenarios on present situations.

Sort of like IBM's Deep Blue beating the human chess champions by methodically running every available chess move into it's multiply branching future, 1000 moves in advance.

And every tiny fact matters in projecting the future. "She wore a violet blouse and white shorts on our date. That means she is interested in sex but doesn't have a lot of experience and wants to stay pure for now."

So, @grumpyvic81, your Ni-egos have taken in all the facts that you presented them with, and they have walked a path into the future (now present) with you based on what you presented to them because they see that as an acceptable path, and then you change things and they withdraw.

You may have shown them something that leads to a future that is unacceptable to them.

Which is an elaborate way of saying that they don't want to go there. I don't think they are bullshitting at all. Not at all.

Thanks, that makes some sense, but I still think it's bullshitting because how is it so fucking stressful to just go and discuss with me to find out if they misinterpreted something about this projected future maybe?? Or find a compromise with me??

To me it's just plain fuckin' immature.

*EDIT*
As for Ni-egos not wanting to discuss the problem and instead, simply disappearing, they by definition have low Se and are not great at real world actions or confrontations. I think that an Ni-ego, once they see that something is not going to work out, consider the problem to be similar to turning a steam locomotive into a cloud of butterflies. Not gonna happen, no point in discussing it, I'm onto some other path now, good luck.

You may have misunderstood because I was not talking about them dumping the whole relationship. That's usually me, not them, lol.

So no it's more like they just hope I drop the particular thing or something because they are not ending the entire relationship otherwise.

Also it's really narrow-minded imo to not even consider the possibility that I could say or do something else that will change that one projected future path they are imagining.

I believe that close relationships are built on each person valuing the things they get from the other person that make their lives better, and ignoring the things that aren't so good. But everyone has a different point at where they draw the line between the tolerable and the intolerable.

Like I said this isn't about that.

[grumpyvic81]

As for Ni-egos not wanting to discuss the problem and instead, simply disappearing, they by definition have low Se and are not great at real world actions or confrontations. I think that an Ni-ego, once they see that something is not going to work out, consider the problem to be similar to turning a steam locomotive into a cloud of butterflies. Not gonna happen, no point in discussing it, I'm onto some other path now, good luck.

Actually, this again.

I said it's really narrow-minded imo to not even consider the possibility that I could say or do something else that will change that one projected future path they are imagining.

But I'll add, it's also narrow-minded to not consider any possibility for yourself to say or do something else that will change this one projected future path. As if you were that powerless.

Let alone not considering the possibility that it's kind of also stupid to just right away assume that I had to necessarily suggest something that can't work out, so like, maybe your future path was calculated wrong, lol. E.g. based on some misunderstanding

So yeah why not discuss it? How is there no point in at least INFORMING the other person that you don't see it working out and how you don't see it working? Besides this being just really rude and disrespectful too.

I still cannot imagine how this would be so stresssful, so I still smell bullshit for these situations, lol

Like it does come off as some subtle maneuver to manipulate the outcome in a dishonest way.

Dishonest because the honest - and mature - way would be confronting it and discussing with me.

[End]

Ok, I have Ni in my ego block and while I can't speak for everyone, I can say that I spend a huge amount of time inside my head running future scenarios on present situations.

Sort of like IBM's Deep Blue beating the human chess champions by methodically running every available chess move into it's multiply branching future, 1000 moves in advance.

And every tiny fact matters in projecting the future. "She wore a violet blouse and white shorts on our date. That means she is interested in sex but doesn't have a lot of experience and wants to stay pure for now."

So, @grumpyvic81, your Ni-egos have taken in all the facts that you presented them with, and they have walked a path into the future (now present) with you based on what you presented to them because they see that as an acceptable path, and then you change things and they withdraw.

You may have shown them something that leads to a future that is unacceptable to them.

Which is an elaborate way of saying that they don't want to go there. I don't think they are bullshitting at all. Not at all.

*EDIT*
As for Ni-egos not wanting to discuss the problem and instead, simply disappearing, they by definition have low Se and are not great at real world actions or confrontations. I think that an Ni-ego, once they see that something is not going to work out, consider the problem to be similar to turning a steam locomotive into a cloud of butterflies. Not gonna happen, no point in discussing it, I'm onto some other path now, good luck.

I believe that close relationships are built on each person valuing the things they get from the other person that make their lives better, and ignoring the things that aren't so good. But everyone has a different point at where they draw the line between the tolerable and the intolerable.

I agree with most everything except that last part. Real world actions I get but confrontations? I mean, I confront people all the damn time when they piss me off. It's not so much the concept of turning the steam engine into butterflies, but rather, the more mundane question of what are the odds that this thing's gonna explode in my face if I shovel another load of coal into the damn thing? If that answer is "probably" than yeah, I'm running like a Chemistry Major who just triggered a metal fluorine fire/found out the hard way why ClF3 was too much for even the most evilest of Germans or why FOOF is so aptly yet also inadequately named. Later cases assume they somehow had time to react because, oh dear lord in Heaven. Those things take the concept of "runaway exothermic reaction" to levels only hardcore Sci-Fi nerds with a flare for the dramatic or fans of the campiest of shounen manga can adequately envision/describe.

If the answer is "nah, we're still way below the danger point and I got a ton of safety measures in place, it can take that and then some and even if it can't I'm still safe" then the confrontation happens with enthusiasm because, well, I've gamed out the fact that I'm not likely to die if I do so I can safely roll the dice and hope to be pleasantly surprised. Still wearing a good pair of running shoes just in case but I'm pretty sure I got this.

[silke]

Ni is used to projecting the past scenarios forward. If they were projecting things into the future, and didn't see them working out, they will excuse themselves out of the venture. Not working out could include: not enough time or not enough resources, there isn't a plan to begin with, if there is a plan is has multiple flaws and no exit strategy, the ultimate end doesn't satisfy a goal/idea that the Ni ego is interested in, the motion happened too short notice for the Ni ego to weigh out pros and cons, and so on and so forth.

[grumpyvic81]

Ni is used to projecting the past scenarios forward. If they were projecting things into the future, and didn't see them working out, they will excuse themselves out of the venture. Not working out could include: not enough time or not enough resources, there isn't a plan to begin with, if there is a plan is has multiple flaws and no exit strategy, the ultimate end doesn't satisfy a goal/idea that the Ni ego is interested in, the motion happened too short notice for the Ni ego to weigh out pros and cons, and so on and so forth.

Thanks and what would make you just run from it hoping that I eventually just drop the topic, instead of sharing your concerns and worries?

[silke]

Thanks and what would make you just run from it hoping that I eventually just drop the topic, instead of sharing your concerns and worries?

I'd say it's this sentence right here. You say you make the change out of your own volition, without consulting your Ni ego partner beforehand. And then you expect them to simply follow that change, which is ignoring their input, their own interests and goals. This kind of de-appreciation is going to make any partner disengage and start questioning the relationship.

... and then one day I make a sudden change and I want to ask for something bigger, then there's always this problem

[grumpyvic81]

I'd say it's this sentence right here. You say you make the change out of your own volition, without consulting your Ni ego partner beforehand. And then you expect them to simply follow that change, which is ignoring their input, their own interests and goals. This kind of de-appreciation is going to make any partner disengage and start questioning the relationship.

No. This topic is abound with misunderstandings for some reason LOL.

I wasn't saying that I actually made a TANGIBLE change. But I can see how that was easy to misinterpret. So to clarify, I meant that I made the change in my mind and now I want to discuss it for implementation while I am open to their input or disagreement or anything. What I am not open to is them simply disappearing and trying to manipulate the outcome that way.

So MY WHOLE POINT is that I WANT their INPUT. But they instead disappear, instead of giving that INPUT, including input on their interests and goals.

So now what is your answer with this clarification added?

[grumpyvic81]

Their input is in their reaction. They disappear because they were scared away/didn't like it etc. It's on you whether to chase it further and whether you can make the cut. If they like you that much they will open up themselves.

Imo just form a relationship based on closeness, kindness and trust from the beginning. But that's kinda Fi and dunno if it works in more 'volatile' Beta terms… Just cut to nice atmosphere maybe? Idk what Betas do here

thanks now I have input from all 4 Ni ego types lol

Yah it's kinda Fi but I do think it has a place in every relationship on a basic level.

Anyway my issue is if this isn't manipulation then I'd just like them to be able to have more communication skills lol .... instead of dancing around all of it wasting time. Bc I do escalate afterwards yes i.e what you called chase so it's all a waste of time before we do actually confront the whole issue

[grumpyvic81]

PS: For all of you, I'm going to repeat in BIG FUCKING CAPS:

THIS ISN'T ABOUT THEM WANTING TO DROP THE RELATIONSHIP OR QUESTIONING THE RELATIONSHIP AT ALL. IF ANYONE EVEN EVER QUESTIONED OR WANTED TO DROP THE RELATIONSHIP IT WAS ALWAYS ME, NOT THEM, AS A RESULT OF THEIR MANIPULATION TACTICS.

This misunderstanding is getting boring. Where are you people reading that into my lines????

[grumpyvic81]

PS2: And NO IT WASN'T THEIR INTENT TO MANIPULATE ME INTO DROPPING THE RELATIONSHIP LIKE COLD TURKEY. THAT IS VERY CLEAR BECAUSE THEY THEMSELVES HAVE TOLD ME SO IF THIS CAME UP ON MY END LOL. THE GUY ALSO STILL WANTED TO MARRY ME EVEN AFTER THESE DISAGREEMENTS.

...

There, I'm done, calming down. I don't want anymore misunderstandings on this point. Any further misunderstanding on this point I am going to treat as Ni manipulation of the topic by doing reframing attempts.

[grumpyvic81]

Basically these people do want the fucking relationship but want it on their own fucking terms without informing me and yes I take issue with that. Even if only in retrospect in some of these cases, lol.

[nanashi]

Ni types want to be with ppl who can handle our level of weird. Can you cut it? Will you survive and thrive? Etc

If an Se type wants something and throws it out there, I am very adamantine on a few points:'that benefits your life but is a burden to me, and there are better options', etc. But many things I am happy for them to have because it doesn't harm me, and I like being along for the adventure. Think of it a bit like a wizard who's always looking at a future you don't know. And you're very focused on the present.
IF I CANT SEE THAT YOU CAN HANDLE HEARING NO....THAT YOU SEEM LIKE YOU'RE GOING TO LOSE YOUR SHIT AND TANTRUM OR FEEL BEREFT ...or not be open to Ne to search out a mutually beneficial alternative but are instead wanting to die on some hill, well, then you aren't able to go the distance with me, and I either leave to spare you or to shake off the weight

[grumpyvic81]

Ni types want to be with ppl who can handle our level of weird. Can you cut it? Will you survive and thrive? Etc

If an Se type wants something and throws it out there, I am very adamantine on a few points:'that benefits your life but is a burden to me, and there are better options', etc. But many things I am happy for them to have because it doesn't harm me, and I like being along for the adventure. Think of it a bit like a wizard who's always looking at a future you don't know. And you're very focused on the present.
IF I CANT SEE THAT YOU CAN HANDLE HEARING NO....THAT YOU SEEM LIKE YOU'RE GOING TO LOSE YOUR SHIT AND TANTRUM OR FEEL BEREFT ...or not be open to Ne to search out a mutually beneficial alternative but are instead wanting to die on some hill, well, then you aren't able to go the distance with me, and I either leave to spare you or to shake off the weight

Oh I'm happy being told that "there are better options" in your opinion or whatever.

I think what you said in caps lol, that that makes sense. But I think that it would be nice for you as a Ni ego to consider that maybe your read of the Se stuff is wrong sometimes and that the other person should be respected at least as much as being told this? Tho sure if you mean you don't want to handle the possible confrontation/conflict resulting from it....uh oh that can be stressful eh?

Don't forget all this still remains in the context of the relationship, the Ni ego isn't looking to drop the relationship itself. The maneuvering is inside the relationship, not outside of it.

Thanks for the input. This one feels like most on point so far.

[nanashi]

I think some of it is neither person having diplomacy skills

[Adam Strange]

I think some of it is neither person having diplomacy skills

Or perhaps the people aren't stating the full, exact truth as they see it.

Like, "I really like you but I don't want to get married, because you squeeze the toothpaste from the middle of the tube and I can't stand that and I know you are never going to change."

Or something.

[grumpyvic81]

Or perhaps the people aren't stating the full, exact truth as they see it. Like, "I really like you but I don't want to get married, because you squeeze the toothpaste from the middle of the tube and I can't stand that and I know you are never going to change."

Or something.

lol I never cared about toothpaste BTW

[grumpyvic81]

lol possible.

[grumpyvic81]

Thanks for this, I will get to doing a response to all of this later, I need a little time to think about some of this first. But just a quick answer, this is more than one person yeah it's been a pattern. And they either said they were stressed in general (they said this more often) or they said having to deal with the conflict is stressful (less often), or they tried to make up a (distorted ofc and tbh very manipulative) reframing of me and my behaviour over time that essentially aimed to convey the same


Edit: I'll add that I can believe it if they feel overwhelmed by pressure fast but I gotta understand more on that too bc it seems so fast overwhelm sometimes lol (from my pov ofc)

To be fair I also get affected bad by being ignored (ie the exact opposite of what I do with the direct pressure/confrontation), lol

[grumpyvic81]

I will add this as update (copypasting from another post of mine)

also just the other day I had enough of someone doing passive aggro crap and I really got not just angry at them but also kinda mean (not totally, I reserve actual meanness only for really crap people) and just aggressive overall and issued a hard ultimatum with threats. They were a Ni ego person. The end result - well, yeah, have a guess. They managed to mirror my attitude eventually and tried to be even more mean and aggressive back at me LOL frankly I enjoyed it. I'm serious, I enjoy that more than passive aggressive distant silent treatment running away etc crap. Then we had a discussion and got to some agreement OK.

[nanashi]

I will add this as update (copypasting from another post of mine)

also just the other day I had enough of someone doing passive aggro crap and I really got not just angry at them but also kinda mean (not totally, I reserve actual meanness only for really crap people) and just aggressive overall and issued a hard ultimatum with threats. They were a Ni ego person. The end result - well, yeah, have a guess. They managed to mirror my attitude eventually and tried to be even more mean and aggressive back at me LOL frankly I enjoyed it. I'm serious, I enjoy that more than passive aggressive distant silent treatment running away etc crap. Then we had a discussion and got to some agreement OK.

It's not the healthiest way to handle that, apparently. (I've been reading up on this kinda stuff)
do a google if you're interested in what works better

[grumpyvic81]

It's not the healthiest way to handle that, apparently. (I've been reading up on this kinda stuff)
do a google if you're interested in what works better

I mean I'm done with the idea of always doing the "healthy response". I'm not particularly interested in what's IN THEORY healthier or better or whatever. More interested in what actually works.

Thanks though. If you want to share more on your thoughts on this, feel free to.

Do Si-Ne types inherently have it easier? Why would they? I know a Si-Ne type who's super depressed in an incompatible marriage and just stews in their disatisfaction; and I know a Ni-Se dual couple who have sexy interactions 25 years in and strategize together but only rarely seem to have disagreements.

Do Ni-Se types HATE to communicate about their relationship? why would they? maybe they don't communicate how Delta couples would. Doesn't mean they don't have their own enjoyed language.

Do Se types more than other types detest compromise?

Who thinks Martha Stewart is super into compromising? Not me. And Se types...I've seen them DELIGHTED when they figure out something their partner or interlocuter wants and that 'we can combine forces to get you'...and that kind of behavior has the same prosocial and even sacrificial element that compromising has....they are giving their resources to help you....I've seen a Gamma sf relieved and grateful when I reworked a game's rules so that play retained a sense of urgency but wasn't pitting the person against someone else. Maybe Se is not always unwilling to compromise. I think Se types perceive the objects of the current world very well. I think they see kinetic energy and logistics very well. I think that because they see these things well, they are likely to act in those realms. I don't see that that makes them LESS likely to collaborate or less likely to compromise. Ever had a discussion with a LII who disagreed with you about something? They aren't tripping over themselves to compromise.

Oh yeah, I liked the way you described the Se delight lol.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

As for somebody being assertive and enforcing their will upon me it kinda depends. Are they really taking *me* along with their journey or am I supposed to be this complete sycophant to their narcissism? Despite being passive and shy- I also am quite willful myself and won't really put up with somebody treating me this way. I know I have a big heart and can be a good listener and morph myself into a faux-EII or faux-SEI when need be - but I also refused to be "used" because of this. Being a one-way emotional tampon sucks lol. Either we're both the tampons or we're both something else but I am not going to put up with something like that.

((not saying that you yourself are doing that but that is one of the situations where I'd act that way.))

[grumpyvic81]

As for somebody being assertive and enforcing their will upon me it kinda depends. Are they really taking *me* along with their journey or am I supposed to be this complete sycophant to their narcissism? Despite being passive and shy- I also am quite willful myself and won't really put up with somebody treating me this way. I know I have a big heart and can be a good listener and morph myself into a faux-EII or faux-SEI when need be - but I also refused to be "used" because of this. Being a one-way emotional tampon sucks lol. Either we're both the tampons or we're both something else but I am not going to put up with something like that.

((not saying that you yourself are doing that but that is one of the situations where I'd act that way.))

Thanks for the input. It makes sense. I do none of that. I don't use people even if some have tried to use me. However with one of these people specifically I have been accused of just wanting to get my way always. It was ironic bc this is a quite willful person too that accused me of that, so,...... The ones that are not as openly willful never accused me of that in the same way so maybe projection? It did annoy me because my intent wasn't even "just get my way always" when this person accused me of that.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Or they ((yes, unfairly)) thought you probably would more than likely do that because of bad prior experiences that had nothing to do with you?

I'm sorry if you met an IEI that really was a selfish, narcissistic asshole though. Please don't judge your experiences with all IEIs/ILIs though based on the behavior of a few. <3

[grumpyvic81]

Ok. I figured this one out.

@Adam Strange thanks for the advice yesterday but I chose to do something else.

[grumpyvic81]

@Adam Strange let me also say this (cba to find another thread or PM or anything), I don't think duality works nowadays. Maybe it did in the past with stricter social norms and roles in the marriage/family/community. But nowadays... We are all free to choose whatever and we are all free to keep running for the greener grass. So duality between two very clearly expressed types (i.e. strong focus on ego and zero focus on the opposite of it in the "shadow") such as you are too (and I am too in a way), it's not possible to keep it working for long. So for example your Fi lead women they don't like the lack of Fi in you after a while. Not an attack on you bc I could say the exact same about myself

[Adam Strange]

@Adam Strange let me also say this (cba to find another thread or PM or anything), I don't think duality works nowadays. Maybe it did in the past with stricter social norms and roles in the marriage/family/community. But nowadays... We are all free to choose whatever and we are all free to keep running for the greener grass. So duality between two very clearly expressed types (i.e. strong focus on ego and zero focus on the opposite of it in the "shadow") such as you are too (and I am too in a way), it's not possible to keep it working for long. So for example your Fi lead women they don't like the lack of Fi in you after a while. Not an attack on you bc I could say the exact same about myself

Food for thought, @grumpyvic81. I know that the general oil prosperity and the social safety net have enabled most people to live generally stress-free lives, especially compared to previous generations, and hence there are fewer crisis which your dual can help you with on a day-to-day basis. In general, this is a good thing but it does reduce the need for Duals.

In my own life, I don't see many ESI-LIE Dual pairs. Only one, actually. Most of the LIE's and ESI's whom I know are in some varying degree of dysfunctional relationship with a non-Dual. I'm sure that each one of them chose their mates for reasons of time, expediency, and availability and have tried to make the best of it since then. It is true that long term-stability in relationships depends a lot on the health of the individuals and their respective social skills.

I certainly know that it is hard to get an ESI to see me. It is a hundred times harder to find one who wants to be with me. So hard, in fact, that it has only happened once, and she was 22 years old. FML. I haven't given up on the idea of Duality, but I'm finding it a hard slog.

[grumpyvic81]

Food for thought, @grumpyvic81. I know that the general oil prosperity and the social safety net have enabled most people to live generally stress-free lives, especially compared to previous generations, and hence there are fewer crisis which your dual can help you with on a day-to-day basis. In general, this is a good thing but it does reduce the need for Duals.

In my own life, I don't see many ESI-LIE Dual pairs. Only one, actually. Most of the LIE's and ESI's whom I know are in some varying degree of dysfunctional relationship with a non-Dual. I'm sure that each one of them chose their mates for reasons of time, expediency, and availability and have tried to make the best of it since then. It is true that long term-stability in relationships depends a lot on the health of the individuals and their respective social skills.

I certainly know that it is hard to get an ESI to see me. It is a hundred times harder to find one who wants to be with me. So hard, in fact, that it has only happened once, and she was 22 years old. FML. I haven't given up on the idea of Duality, but I'm finding it a hard slog.

I mean while you convert all the Fi to Te I dont think it will happen

But Im not sure if its worth not converting things to your ego's language

Its probably just better to go with whoever it works with enough IN REALITY regardless of this duality crap

Like who the fuck wants to keep chasing a dream thats just not real

[Kalinoche buenanoche]

I mean while you convert all the Fi to Te I dont think it will happen

But Im not sure if its worth not converting things to your ego's language

Its probably just better to go with whoever it works with enough IN REALITY regardless of this duality crap

Like who the fuck wants to keep chasing a dream thats just not real

One who has not found a more appealing alternative maybe

[Adam Strange]

One who has not found a more appealing alternative maybe

Kali, this is exactly right. I've dated every introvert in the socion and had LTR's with two LSI's and an SLI, and they all crashed in one way or another, and usually that "way" was in line with Socionics's predictions.

I'm not saying that a relationship with a Dual won't crash. I'll be the first to say that even getting a relationship with a Dual started is beginning to seem like an impossible task, but when I'm with most of my Duals, I'm not feeling like this is a dead end for one reason or another.

[grumpyvic81]

One who has not found a more appealing alternative maybe

You must accept and make do with reality tho.

[nanashi]

Food for thought, @grumpyvic81. I know that the general oil prosperity and the social safety net have enabled most people to live generally stress-free lives, especially compared to previous generations, and hence there are fewer crisis which your dual can help you with on a day-to-day basis. In general, this is a good thing but it does reduce the need for Duals.

In my own life, I don't see many ESI-LIE Dual pairs. Only one, actually. Most of the LIE's and ESI's whom I know are in some varying degree of dysfunctional relationship with a non-Dual. I'm sure that each one of them chose their mates for reasons of time, expediency, and availability and have tried to make the best of it since then. It is true that long term-stability in relationships depends a lot on the health of the individuals and their respective social skills.

I certainly know that it is hard to get an ESI to see me. It is a hundred times harder to find one who wants to be with me. So hard, in fact, that it has only happened once, and she was 22 years old. FML. I haven't given up on the idea of Duality, but I'm finding it a hard slog.

I don't think the social safety net is strong enough that people live relatively stress-free lives, honestly. My great grandma is surprised at how much I care about things far away from me. I think they kept their worlds smaller and just made do.

I don't think we're less stressed

Also, I've dated several duals. I think duality exists. I've dated a LOT of non-duals. The dual dates were infinitely more date-like and less sad-boring-meh, etc.

[nanashi]

@Adam Strange let me also say this (cba to find another thread or PM or anything), I don't think duality works nowadays. Maybe it did in the past with stricter social norms and roles in the marriage/family/community. But nowadays... We are all free to choose whatever and we are all free to keep running for the greener grass. So duality between two very clearly expressed types (i.e. strong focus on ego and zero focus on the opposite of it in the "shadow") such as you are too (and I am too in a way), it's not possible to keep it working for long. So for example your Fi lead women they don't like the lack of Fi in you after a while. Not an attack on you bc I could say the exact same about myself

I really don't see the human animal with all its psychological challenges and the complexity of its interface with reality as less supported by duality now than previously. That we're fleshing out these models that talk about dual interaction doesn't mean all our ancestors were in dual relationships. And that we personally are this moment not does not then mean duality is no longer useful. That would be a leap for us to say

I do really appreciate you pointing out the changes in tech and culture that might mean we have more candidates to evaluate as a potential partner. That's really interesting.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I'm not so sure that those relationships are inherently more dysfunctional just because they are not dual types. That seems way too simple. And socionics is a facet of reality but I think that's given it too much value or something.

I DO think though, I have this theory that Si/Ne valuing is way better for relationships in a realistic sense than Se/Ni is. Ne valuing seeing more potential hazards from a wider variety of sources (so can defend against them better) and Si just mediating & smoothing out difficulties more naturally, rather than about one's own willpower. Se/Ni takes more work or something...

Relationships work on compromise and 'talking through things together' like a boring Delta sitcom. *tries not to throw up* Se doesn't want to compromise and Si just does it so much easier.

And idk there is a lot of Beta bashing on this forum but I do think objectively beta with the valued functions would be the 'worst' at relationships and Delta would be the best and then Gamma/Alpha somewhere in the middle.

[grumpyvic81]

I'm not so sure that those relationships are inherently more dysfunctional just because they are not dual types. That seems way too simple. And socionics is a facet of reality but I think that's given it too much value or something.

I DO think though, I have this theory that Si/Ne valuing is way better for relationships in a realistic sense than Se/Ni is. Ne valuing seeing more potential hazards from a wider variety of sources (so can defend against them better) and Si just mediating & smoothing out difficulties more naturally, rather than about one's own willpower. Se/Ni takes more work or something...

Relationships work on compromise and 'talking through things together' like a boring Delta sitcom. *tries not to throw up* Se doesn't want to compromise and Si just does it so much easier.

And idk there is a lot of Beta bashing on this forum but I do think objectively beta with the valued functions would be the 'worst' at relationships and Delta would be the best and then Gamma/Alpha somewhere in the middle.

Actually I like your post except the bolded I so don't agree with, lol. What is a relationship without long-term meaning (Ni) and what is it without emotional passion (Fe)?

[nanashi]

I DO think though, I have this theory that Si/Ne valuing is way better for relationships in a realistic sense than Se/Ni is. Ne valuing seeing more potential hazards from a wider variety of sources (so can defend against them better) and Si just mediating & smoothing out difficulties more naturally, rather than about one's own willpower. Se/Ni takes more work or something...

Relationships work on compromise and 'talking through things together' like a boring Delta sitcom. *tries not to throw up* Se doesn't want to compromise and Si just does it so much easier.

Do Si-Ne types inherently have it easier? Why would they? I know a Si-Ne type who's super depressed in an incompatible marriage and just stews in their disatisfaction; and I know a Ni-Se dual couple who have sexy interactions 25 years in and strategize together but only rarely seem to have disagreements.

Do Ni-Se types HATE to communicate about their relationship? why would they? maybe they don't communicate how Delta couples would. Doesn't mean they don't have their own enjoyed language.

Do Se types more than other types detest compromise?

Who thinks Martha Stewart is super into compromising? Not me. And Se types...I've seen them DELIGHTED when they figure out something their partner or interlocuter wants and that 'we can combine forces to get you'...and that kind of behavior has the same prosocial and even sacrificial element that compromising has....they are giving their resources to help you....I've seen a Gamma sf relieved and grateful when I reworked a game's rules so that play retained a sense of urgency but wasn't pitting the person against someone else. Maybe Se is not always unwilling to compromise. I think Se types perceive the objects of the current world very well. I think they see kinetic energy and logistics very well. I think that because they see these things well, they are likely to act in those realms. I don't see that that makes them LESS likely to collaborate or less likely to compromise. Ever had a discussion with a LII who disagreed with you about something? They aren't tripping over themselves to compromise.

[Lolita]

As for somebody being assertive and enforcing their will upon me it kinda depends. Are they really taking *me* along with their journey or am I supposed to be this complete sycophant to their narcissism? Despite being passive and shy- I also am quite willful myself and won't really put up with somebody treating me this way. I know I have a big heart and can be a good listener and morph myself into a faux-EII or faux-SEI when need be - but I also refused to be "used" because of this. Being a one-way emotional tampon sucks lol. Either we're both the tampons or we're both something else but I am not going to put up with something like that.

((not saying that you yourself are doing that but that is one of the situations where I'd act that way.))

This is unrelated but how do you feel about Se-like places and activities like Vegas and skydiving? I have friends who are IEIs and they like the idea of doing “adventurous” things but when we go on some rollercoaster, they literally piss their pants. If I suggest we go on a road trip to some weird, remote place; they’ve also liked the idea but then talk about spirits (they know I don’t believe in spirits and supernatural stuff) to avoid going there. I’ve taken them on some impromptu trips but then they have panic attacks in the middle of the night and slam doors. I’m much closer to Si friends but they freak out if we don’t have a “plan” and my “plan” is basically we do stuff once we land at the destination. At this point, I’m looking for new traveling partners. Quarantine has been extremely boring and I want to do more traveling but all my friends have gotten on my last damn nerve. I don’t know of any ILIs irl... so I wonder if they get out much?


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[SGF]

This is unrelated but how do you feel about Se-like places and activities like Vegas and skydiving? I have friends who are IEIs and they like the idea of doing “adventurous” things but when we go on some rollercoaster, they literally piss their pants. If I suggest we go on a road trip to some weird, remote place; they’ve also liked the idea but then talk about spirits (they know I don’t believe in spirits and supernatural stuff) to avoid going there. I’ve taken them on some impromptu trips but then they have panic attacks in the middle of the night and slam doors. I’m much closer to Si friends but they freak out if we don’t have a “plan” and my “plan” is basically we do stuff once we land at the destination. At this point, I’m looking for new traveling partners. Quarantine has been extremely boring and I want to do more traveling but all my friends have gotten on my last damn nerve. I don’t know of any ILIs irl... so I wonder if they get out much?


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Beta quadra: to strengthen its ideals, is highly indicative of the Spartan lifestyle, which presupposes asceticism, constant training, both physical and spiritual, as well as forced collectivism.

asceticism - severe self-discipline and avoiding of all forms of indulgence (not valuing Si-Ne)
collectivism - refers to a culture that privileges family and community over individuals (not valuing Fi-Te)

Source: https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...-socioniks-net

Examples in my life: I don't smoke, drink, do other drugs. I live within my means, I save, I invest and I mainly spend on the needs of my family. I slept for years on the floor, because I didn't think a bed was necessary tbh. I do like good food, but if necessary I can subsist on whatever as long as I logically meet nutritional goals. For a good cause/goal I can endure some pain and suffering, no problem. Hot water is nice, but its not a problem if its cold and I have no way to heat it.. and so on.

Biggest concern of mine usually is finding meaning, a worthy hill to die on, a cause to fight for that makes sense. I'm not good at providing this, maybe beta NFs are. Not having this for me = Ni-Ti loops, nihilistic depression and stagnation. I'm practically the walking dead without a hill to die on. I don't save and invest because I like money, money is a tool to be used for goals. I prefer to live a simpler life myself.

Vegas and enjoying myself is not appealing tbh.. however I would take doing something physical and interesting like white water rafting over something boring like sunbathing at the beach any time.

Sensory type — the type having S or F among his two strongest functions (ego functions). The sensation is a function of a precise perception of the world through the organs of senses. Socionics identifies two types of sensation: force sensing (F), meaning power pressure, the ability to subordinate others to your will, to make others do something,and comfort sensing (S), catching comfort, taste and body sensations,health.

Intuitive type — the type having T or I among his two strongest functions (ego functions). Intuition is abstract perception of the world through holistic images and fantasy pictures. In the School of Humanitarian Socionics, there are two types of general intuitive function:the opportunity intuition (I) — guesses, discoveries, abilities — and the temporal intuition (T) — variability, inconsistency, mystical fantasies.

Temporal Intuition (T) — introverted intuition; function of the psyche observed in patient and cautious behavior.

Opportunity Intuition (I) — extraverted intuition; function of thepsyche reflected in high-risk and non-standard behavior.

Force Sensation (F) — extraverted sensing; function of the psyche responsible for excitability and release of the accumulated aggression.

Comfort Sensation (S) — introverted sensing; function of the psyche responsible for the care of the substantive requirements of the body: suchas eating, sleeping, clothing, accommodation and so on.

Beta Quadra — an ecosystem of four sociotypes (Mentor, Marshall,Inspector and Lyrist) united by romantic and strength values, performing a dominant role in the socion. They are characterized by collectivism,centralization and ideological solidarity against a common enemy, which makes them highly competitive. Also they are characterized by authoritarianism and suppression of various individual freedoms.These values are present in the second phase in the life-cycle of any communicative system — a state of rapid growth and seizure of new territories and resources. The most organized and ideologically convinced, Beta implements and organizes the provision of new projects.

Source: Gulenko's book.